An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[General_Krull]

I prefer optimism and encouragement over attempting to tear down a person or an idea if I can help it. Honey > vinegar and whatnot. Did you click the link? Did you not see the history of features documented? What are your ideas on them? I think if those ideas are implemented this game will be the very best game I have ever come across and I'm Atari old. What do you think?

I'm not him but I don't think any of the ideas are actually going to be implemented. I believe it when I see it.

[Nkomo-Sama]

I'm not him but I don't think any of the ideas are actually going to be implemented. I believe it when I see it.

That's the cool thing some (not many) of the ideas already ARE implemented that is what excites me. I know these things take time to produce and implement. It is way quicker and far easier to demand results than it is to produce them...ask any hungry infant to make their own bottle and see what happens. (not calling you an infant it is an analogy) I hope you are wrong in this case and that we both see alot more of the features mentioned to be produced this year so you can believe and we can both enjoy them! (DE: CHALLENGE!)

Edited January 18, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama

[Althix]

I prefer optimism

and i prefer logic.

you see from the looks of it, DE are using strategy of less efforts more profit. And it works. And you know, i think they are doing well. Very well.

[f3llyn]

I prefer optimism and encouragement over attempting to tear down a person or an idea if I can help it. Honey > vinegar and whatnot. Did you click the link? Did you not see the history of features documented? What are your ideas on them? I think if those ideas are implemented this game will be the very best game I have ever come across and I'm Atari old. What do you think?

 

Until you realize that list goes back a year or so and 95% of that stuff hasn't seen the light of day.

Edited January 18, 2014 by f3llyn

[Nkomo-Sama]

and i prefer logic.

you see from the looks of it, DE are using strategy of less efforts more profit. And it works. And you know, i think they are doing well. Very well.

 

Until you realize that list goes back a year or so and 95% of that stuff hasn't seen the light of day.

 

Let us observe the upcoming update(s) as a community and let us see if these features are implemented. I understand that these things require time and resources and Althix I agree with your assessment to a point. I believe good money is being made (as it should be). I just happen to also believe that some of this money will be put into developing the resources and features that DE aspired to in past livestreams. IJS  FREE GAME dude. Sole income from the community. The employees have to get paid don't they?

 

If I am wrong then I am positive that myself alongside with many other players will have a far less optimistic disposition. I just sincerely hope I am right.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama

[f3llyn]

Let us observe the upcoming update(s) as a community and let us see if these features are implemented. I understand that these things require time and resources and Althix I agree with your assessment to a point. I believe good money is being made (as it should be). I just happen to also believe that some of this money will be put into developing the resources and features that DE aspired to in past livestreams. IJS  FREE GAME dude. Sole income from the community. The employees have to get paid don't they?

 

If I am wrong then I am positive that myself alongside with many other players will have a far less optimistic disposition. I just sincerely hope I am right.

 

Like some one else said, I'll believe it when I see it. I prefer to not get my hopes only to be let down and then be surprised when something good actually happens.

Edited January 18, 2014 by f3llyn

[Nkomo-Sama]

Like some one else said, I'll believe it when I see it. I prefer to not get my hopes only to be let down and then be surprised when something good actually happens.

fair enough

[Vandoore]

and i prefer logic.

you see from the looks of it, DE are using strategy of less efforts more profit. And it works. And you know, i think they are doing well. Very well.

I'm going to disagree with this a defend DE, only because we don't actually know what is going on. Sure looking at the information provided it can seem that DE is all for making reskinned weapons for ridiculous prices but, it may not be the case.

The problem is we have very little information as to what is happening and therefore jump to conclusion that could be wrong. Who knows maybe they are secretly fixing the void drop tables and distracting us with weapons for that sweet surprise.

[Althix]

^ Hope is the first step on the road of disappointment.

 

you do understand that they have a marketing department right? and chances are that each and every rushed Update has been forced by this department.

 

i am working for a company. there is no reason to waste more efforts than usual to get same amount of profit in the end. it doesn't make sense. at all.

[Nkomo-Sama]

^ Hope is the first step on the road of disappointment.

 

you do understand that they have a marketing department right? and chances are that each and every rushed Update has been forced by this department.

 

i am working for a company. there is no reason to waste more efforts than usual to get same amount of profit in the end. it doesn't make sense. at all.

Well I submit that you may very well underestimate the integrity of DE_ Steve and the gang. Alas we shall see. I'm betting on the gang.

[_mangomen_]

DAT this..... WOW. I look forward to when these ideas are realized. Seriously. Stop the presses. Seriously. Focus on this. I'm assuming this is gonna cost a pretty penny to implement. I say we be equally supportive as critical in the earnest belief that this is what our beloved DE is aspiring for because if so.... you take your time and you get it right. That's best game EVER conceived and achieved territory right there.

 

p.s. A decent percentage of these ideas have already been implemented I believe this is a good sign Red29A. These things do take time and resources to implement properly.

 

I am just refering to all the things that they promised that are still not existant. Of which there are many. Very many.

 

I have only actually watched the three most recent livestreams, so I was quite shocked when I read this spreadsheet. I don't have the dates for the livestreams, but each one of them has promises that still have not been made good on. I do not see how any self respecting gamer can take this company seriously. I still enjoy this game, but I am also not a long time veteran like many in this thread. And I do not even respect my self enough to use a capital letter in my name.

 

At least they could do a special stream where they address all the promises that they decided they will not implement and tell us not to expect these things any more. Give us some closure and not just leave us hanging.

 

I'm not about to go through and see what promises from this spreadsheet have been brought to warfarm and get a percentage, but I am fairly certain it is not a "decent" percentage.

 

 

and i prefer logic.

you see from the looks of it, DE are using strategy of less efforts more profit. And it works. And you know, i think they are doing well. Very well.

 

Here, here!

 

And to anyone that might be having doubts, for taking the easy way out and forgeting about your old dreams, contemplating what Warframe could have been as you sip your expensive imported whiskey, just remember that profit numbs the feeling.

[Althix]

Well I submit that you may very well underestimate the integrity of DE_ Steve and the gang.

Oh no i think they know what they are doing. Or at least people who have direct control over them. If you think that faces you see in LS are Digital Extremes, than you are mistaken.

 

There is high management in this company and they are running the show.

[Takai]

Ok, there are many topics on the OP that are obviously  relevant! 

 

As a 850+ hour player and Grand Master in the DC, you can consider me almost a fanatic... honestly this is one of the only games I have been playing because you can manage your time with it. Anyhoo, Im going to  talk  about something specific  relevant  to vets, where this game can be dramatically improved: Endgame. I will give clear feedback and ideas as best I can.

 

Endgame: In DE's defense, endgame is a serious challenge for developers now (least IMO)... Warframe is not a linear game, it is a dynamic sandbox. I can not think of a dynamic online game,  especially  a PVE focused game, with outstanding endgame. Players will play until they are  bored  or something superior comes out. They have to manage their time, they have to be constantly entertained with new content, and they have to be constantly looking for something to make themselves or their team more powerful. These boxes are checked for DE's WF. They churn out new content at a seriously alarming rate, and it is fantastic, but something is missing and something changed, that creates a negative response.

 

Why continue playing?: Tough and easy question at the same time. What shoots dopamine into the players brain while playing WF? (and dopamine is shooting into the players brain if they are enjoying the game. In fact dopamine shoots into your brain when your cellphone rings or in anticipation to your cellphone ringing)

 

- Achieving a long term goal (getting that thing you wanted)

- Overcoming a long term obstacle (removing that  hindrance  that was holding you back)

- Achieving an  efficiency over a difficult obstacle (a new level of OP)

- Terrible and dynamic consequences on your foes (gore, and things you do to a  pixel-lated enemy you can never do in RL)

- Impact on  environment

 

We have elements of these already in the game, but something about them frustrates the player:

 

- Void, materials and foundation - long term goal - Frustration due to 2 layers of RNG; incrementing counter option only for  material  and  clan tech  sets.

- Mods - long term obstacle - Frustration due to enemy specific RNG; rarity of enemy types; unbalanced polarity organization. 

- Leveling - a new efficiency - 30 is the cap with the option to forma, there is only fun factor reasons to surpass 4 - 6 Formas, mastery level.

- Slash proc and Slash deaths - Dynamic consequences to foes - Impact and pierce proc lack visually dynamic consequences on foes. 

- Battles and infestation -  environment  impact - The Battle and infestation can become a tedious chore with no longterm or overall impact on the way the game is  experienced.

 

Long Term Goals:

What was working before? (least from my persecutive)

What are the solutions? - 

 

Clantech - it was the reason to start of join a clan. These exclusive items that were not  available  through the cashshop, only through playtime. You can watch the counter increment through the efforts of your team and yourself. The weapons were powerful and unique from the weapons that were easily available. This changed one day in a very negative way. Very powerful and unique weapons became available through the cash shop. Specific examples are the Penta, Tysis, Stug, Lecta, and the Cestra.

 

What reason do you have to play the clantech game for Acrid when you can buy or craft a Tysis easily? What reason do you have to run around for a Torid if you can get a superior in all ways Penta?

 

If I was managing the release of that creative aspect of the game I would have put all those weapons into clantech and in addition added a specific subset for new Tenno class weapons. Even further, the warframes that are missing bosses (volt, vaubon, and banshee) I would have put into clantech under the Tenno class, with the option to cashshop them.

 

I know you guys need to turn a profit,  completely logical, but those specific weapons fit the role of clantech's past. What is funny is that I did not cashshop any of those weapons because you could buy them with surplus materials. So doing the battles for mutagen masses, fieldtrons and such were  completely irrelevant, but they have been done in hopes that new weapons would come out for clantech. This did not happen (exception  for the Scoliac, well done!!).

 

This to me a no brainer in the context of balancing the unique and powerful weapons for endgame and the normalized and easily  achievable  weapons with the starter/midgame. Honestly, the new player should work up towards the clantech using the simpler weapons. Their mastery should determine if they can  wield them. That brings me to the next category: Leveling.

 

Leveling - this is  delicate  but I have seen many games "fall off" due to stacking new content with no new  requirements. You currently can  achieve  mastery rank 14, with plans for 30. This number can be incremented by the player through gameplay but it's  benefits  become  irrelevant  after 8 (exception  for resource drones). 

 

This is a no brainer fix. Forget reorganizing the current and old weapons and frames for new players, but new content should involve utilizing increased mastery. That Penta, could have required 12 instead of 6, but this is in the past. Moving forward you should consider utilizing the Mastery ranks for new content. This does create a exclusive club that anybody with enough effort can join. This is the long term goal in action.

 

Another thing that would spice things up would be to utilize mastery for increased slots with the Frames and/or Frame  helmets. Forma on a frame has limits and drawbacks that can actually not reward the player. Another slot will always reward the player,  especially  for long term commitment to the game.

 

Master levels could give a nice cosmetic touch to the frames you can add, like rank 14 cape, skin, or helmet. Players should feel good about achieving high mastery and be rewarded for the time spent. This was on-track at one point then derailed around update 10.

 

Obstacles - Here I explain some ideas I have for  obstacles, short and long term.

 

Short Term - Imagine... You are in a Online Corpus survival with 19's and 20's farming for  material  or key X. You guys are kicking booty and it is fairly easy, you are just watching the time to reach 15 or 35 so you can get the thing you want. To your surprise, Jackals appear... 3 of them. That is a  obstacle  that requires teamwork. Mass Effect 3's online was PRO at this and this game needs that element. I  recognize  you have Stalker and Zarduka but they are different then this. Stalker invokes fear, Zarduka  evokes  pleasure (detron chance), they are challenging in ways but are not so normalized as to require teamwork to defeat.

 

You can use these normal and periodic challenges in different ways: A random lvl 50 Corpus tech with armor under his  shields  instead of meat. An ancient that is "THAT ANCIENT!"; a little bigger, armored with a radiation AOE. A lvl 40 Grineer Commander that has a team of Capture enemies (that use many different guns) and they attack you as a squad. These challenges should and can be sprinkled throughout missions in a way that promotes this as normal but challenging encounter. Of course this should not occur in solo mode, or should be scaled down  appropriately. You can play with the units already present and do a old trick: recolor and rescale their size. If you want specific reference, reference Mass Effect 3 online Silver and Gold matches. To kill those enemies it took teamwork.

 

Another note, Vor or Krill or others could make  cameos  in survival or endless  defense to promote that teamwork and flex the high level  weaponry  you have. If this or something similar does work for you guys, a must is to make it rewarding: ie: Credit cache, rare mat, rare mods, uncommon void parts.

 

Long Term obstacles should be tied to  unraveling  the lore through the starchart and improve the "seasons". By seasons I am  referring  to the integral  updates, not the float updates. You do this well!, I look forward to updates 12, 13, 14 and so on. Something to seriously consider for the current long term players and new long term players is where you place them. For example, update 13: another planet or  celestial  object with nodes outside of the current furthest orbit. This is specifically to give it a higher level  requirement, a uncharted region, and a reason to explore it other than solely curiosity. What can frustrate the  experienced player is for example: The new Earth tileset. We have been there and  conquered  all the nodes. Do not get me wrong, I am excited for it art-wise  but a little disappointed that it is not going to be a new challenge to overcome game-wise. 

 

Something very simple (but would take a tad longer to bake) would be a  duplicate tile-set  in a further orbit with with cosmetic changes, that contains higher level enemies. For example; all the plants are neon cool colors and it is constantly night, with lvl 45+ enemies. Now I can explore, be curious, and take on new challenges. This is what you guys originally did with the placeholders prior and they are being filled in (which is great!). Once they are filled in there needs to be new orbits, they should be implemented every season with increasing difficulty and reward. Many games do this.

 

Further, any new faction placed in the game should be on the outer orbit for players to aspire to fight against. 

 

Dynamic Consequences on your Foes - Fancy words for gore and violence. This really is not too much about endgame, but it keeps people playing. It sounds terrible on paper and headlines, but lets face it. Many older players expect a more mature  experience, there is a toggle off feature, and it is in the game already but in a limited fashion.

 

Slash, I love it (I am not a sick person, I swear!). It makes me happy, I get a emotional jolt when I receive slash proc. I  receive  a dark pixelated pleasure when I turn a monster into ribbons. The Tenno by objective observation are actually pretty violent people. 

 

What about pierce and impact death animations? I would think of pierce DA would be pretty violent, like a T90 getting hit with a 20mm slug. Impact would be pretty serious too, like a flattening or warping of a body index. Adding and creating more  dynamism  with the the physical damage types will further encourage different weapon uses. Before damage 2.0, I loved to use the Lanka, just cause it sniped Grineer into gibs... now it gives them the option to have a open casket or make you question if they just fainted. That weapon and similar electricity weapons should fry the enemy like a egg! 

 

No matter how I look at it, it is virtual violence is satisfying! This can be elaborated upon further in the game.

 

Environmental Impact - Ever since the introduction of the Corpus and Grineer War battles the overall power struggle is one sided; exceedingly with the introduction of Zarduka.  Strangely enough, this does not impact the solar system in a meaningful way. 

 

It should make one side not only have more territory but more hazards to the player. For example, for nodes of Grineer over Corpus should entail a dangerous scaling as they are gaining more power. They should become "too big, so they must fail", while the lesser power (in this circumstance the Corpus) should be a bit on the frail side. This would create "teeder todder" as players  gravitate  toward the benefits of either gaining more risky XP by fighting a stronger faction or taking it easy by destroying a weaker faction. This is true impact. When one side is  completely  dominant and or  subservient   there should be a desperate and rewarding activity to counter balance the flaw while protecting the final node from War (if this could ever occur).

 

Taken further, it could effect the node  environments  appearance; Grineer domination could make their nodes more industrialized while Corpus dominance would make the nodes appear more streamlined. This is done with the infested and has a nice  ascetic to it that helps the immersion. 

 

Wall of Text! - Simply put: I love this game, I want it to do great, it has some of the best art direction I have ever seen, it excites me in ways older classics did, there is so much more that can be done! This game inspired me to pursue the path of game art and high level programming! 

 

I want this game to do great and be a fantastic example of what a interactive art form can be! So i outlined these topics with the greatest of care and detail.

[matto]

WALL OF TEXT

 

Damn, and I love it!

[bejuizb]

Takai...Y U SO AWESHUM

 

Dude...awesome stuff

[Scrybatog]

I don't like how this thread's title mentions Veterans, it is misleading and manipulative at best.

[Azure_Kytia]

It is also a minor niggle beside the underlying facets of experience and opinion contained within.

[Nkomo-Sama]

I don't like how this thread's title mentions Veterans, it is misleading and manipulative at best.

I don't like how this is how you chose to comment.. but hey whatevs and +1 to Takai

[Blatantfool]

I don't like how this thread's title mentions Veterans, it is misleading and manipulative at best.

 

 Ignore that part. Focus on the feedback. 

[Abyssal_Dragon]

+1 to op

[Nkomo-Sama]

Oh no i think they know what they are doing. Or at least people who have direct control over them. If you think that faces you see in LS are Digital Extremes, than you are mistaken.

 

There is high management in this company and they are running the show.

I don't know if you wanna pin this one on the DE-lluminati... I'm confident those are official titles being presented and that they have as much control of this particular project as developers can. (I'm not saying Steve is the CEO of the company but I'm pretty sure he is the most ringleaderesque of the Warframe project and I for one believe in his integrity and genuine want to make this game as great as we do.)

Edited January 18, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama

[corpseshock]

Im a closed beta veteran. I left Warframe several months ago.

 

Once in a while i come back to check if something has changed but all i encounter are the same threads about issues, that are discussed since its open beta state and, later, steam release. All of the issues mentioned above are constant issues by that. The fact, that Warframe was released in that state on PS4 only showed me, that it is the state, the developers want Warframe to be in. Even if i can agree mostly with all the OP mentioned by detail i highly doubt anything will change. The endless grind and the misleading informations, the developers gave me, spoiled Warframe for me.

 

Nevertheless, i wish everyone in here the best. This community deserves it.

[Althix]

I don't know

mhm. if you are not holding actives of the company you are either employe or consumer.

 

employe is bound by contract. as result employe have a superior figure telling him what to do and what course he must take.

this superior figure is paying money to his employe.

employe is working to earn this money for company and himself as side effect.

 

which leads us to a conclusion: profit is important. if consumer is willing to pay for same product over and over again, there is no reason to change this product in one way or another.

 

minority here are no longer satisfied with product which is offered. simple. so, as long as majority is satisfied there will be no changes.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Althix

[Vandoore]

Takai, brilliant post. It's nice that you touched on clan tech, I did find it odd and frustrating that these such op weapons were not included in clan tech, or have a higher mastery requirement.

Also, introduction of a tenno faction research field would be nice, a small content update while other things are being worked on.

 

@Althix: I do think that DE (Management) will change the daily grind of this game and it will evolve into something AAA worthy.

Speaking from personal experience, I've only put in money, and continued to support games and software after 80 to 100hrs of gameplay. I did this for League of Legends, Warthunder, Dungeon Defender, Warframe, and guildwars 2 and I'd wager a lot of other people would do the same. Evaluate the product and then see if it is worth spending money.

 

If DE want to have continued profit then they require either a constantly increasing "new" playerbase, or too hold onto the constantly increase "old" playerbase. Corporations, like DE, understand this and therefore look at appeasing the veterans of the game with endgame content, lore and what not. So in actuality there is sensible reason too change the game, just not yet.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Vandoore

[Nkomo-Sama]

mhm. if you are not holding actives of the company you are either employe or consumer.

 

employe is bound by contract. as result employe have a superior figure telling him what to do and what course he must take.

this superior figure is paying money to his employe.

employe working to earn this money for company and himself as side effect.

 

which leads us to a conclusion: profit is important. if consumer is willing to play for same product over and over again, there is no reason to change this product in one way or another. which means that there is not a single, sensible reason to change this product.

 

minority here are no longer satisfied with product which is offered. simple. so, as long as majority is satisfied there will be no changes

OK then the purpose of this thread and or comment that I am responding to is D.O.A. then by your conversation points? Greed is absolute and is the only motivation? I guess time will tell who is correct in this matter. If you are correct in your assumption that this particular company lacks compassion for it's consumer (which I doubt) then welcome to the bleakness which is the future of Warframe congratulations you win? However if I am correct and patience and faith pan out... your just plain welcome. Also I venture the quandry: if as a game developer I were to get a majority of complaints and degrading input from my veteran community despite my best efforts (slow as they may be)  and that I have new players that feverishly support the project you tell me who I should cater to first in order to keep my business flourishing?

Edited January 18, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama