An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[derclaw]

Oh come on..... so we will now ruin thread with crapton of good feedback just cause some people offended that they were included in "Veterans" while they dont agree.

 

Sweet Jesus batman can we just ask Mods to rename it into "Comunity feedback regarding glaring issues that were with us for so long that its not longer funny MEGATHREAD".

[skynexus]

and the plague continues....this is might be my last post on this thread let me ask you guys one question what is the topic of this thread and what was the guy that started this trying to say?  

Edited January 19, 2014 by skynexus

[General_Krull]

and the plague continues....this is might be my last post on this thread let me ask you guys one question what is the topic of this thread and what was the guy that started this trying to say?  

How about you read the OP? I thought it's in clear english.

[Volthorne]

How about you read the OP? I thought it's in clear english.

"Can't be bothered to read it so you guys MUST be wrong blah blah blah" is what I imagine would be going through some people's heads.

[General_Krull]

"Can't be bothered to read it so you guys MUST be wrong blah blah blah" is what I imagine would be going through some people's heads.

Maybe. 

 

On other news, I thought of another example of DE refusing to back down on their decision nobody asked for. Which is continuous fire weapons. They claimed people didn't know how much actual damage was done so they made the damage appear in bulk every few seconds. At first I though "no biggie, if they don't change how the actual gun works, only how the numbers appear it's okay." But it wasn't like that at all.

 

Damage counts only when numbers appear which means they nerfed continuous fire weapons. People complained about it because only clan tech was affected by this change.

 

And instead of doing the right thing (rolling back the change and pretending it never happened) they try to justify it by making tweaks to it, but they don't seem to realize what the issue is, which is continuous fire weapons are supposed to fire a constant stream of numbers at enemies, they do very high dps and proc like hell, which is great but for some reason DE didn't think so.

 

I can't understand why they made the change nobody asked for and then refusing to change it back when there is literally no reason for the change to even exist! As it stands, continuous fire weapons are now nearly worthless, ignis is standing strong flux is even more useless than before and synapse does decent damage but it's real strength was procing all over the place, which is now ruined.

[Scrybatog]

Since my eloquent and well thought out retort to my naysayers got deleted even though it broke no rules and was more on topic than anything else (dealt directly with the topical statement in itself), I'm going to simply state I am rank 14 and have been playing for a long time (and am a founder), and I do not agree with the first 2 parts. I think drops are fine, and stamina is fine, and should not be changed.

[General_Krull]

Since my eloquent and well thought out retort to my naysayers got deleted even though it broke no rules and was more on topic than anything else (dealt directly with the topical statement in itself), I'm going to simply state I am rank 14 and have been playing for a long time (and am a founder), and I do not agree with the first 2 parts. I think drops are fine, and stamina is fine, and should not be changed.

 

And you do have any reason why you think drops and stamina are good? Simply saying they are good isn't helpful, tell us why you think they're good.

[Scrybatog]

And you do have any reason why you think drops and stamina are good? Simply saying they are good isn't helpful, tell us why you think they're good.

I said fine, not good.

 

fine: in a satisfactory or pleasing manner; very well.

 

I think just that. I take no issue with those current systems. I think drop rates (outside of detron specifically, 1 too many layers of RNG) are great and RNG is a necessary part of a game like this. It inflates the time-sink, which is all were doing anyways. If you guys want to remove random drops, why not admit the whole game is a waste of time and go do something more productive with your lives. These mechanics are part of Warframe, and to change them would be to change the game. What your asking for isn't warframe at all, but a completely different game with the same theme.

[Volthorne]

I said fine, not good.

fine: in a satisfactory or pleasing manner; very well.

"Fine" is also an acronym for "F***ed IN the Extreme".

I think just that. I take no issue with those current systems. I think drop rates (outside of detron specifically, 1 too many layers of RNG) are great and RNG is a necessary part of a game like this. It inflates the time-sink, which is all were doing anyways. If you guys want to remove random drops, why not admit the whole game is a waste of time and go do something more productive with your lives. These mechanics are part of Warframe, and to change them would be to change the game. What your asking for isn't warframe at all, but a completely different game with the same theme.

What we have right now isn't Warframe either. We were PROMISED a fast-paced balls-to-the-wall action-movie-style game about Space Ninja Wizards dashing/sneaking through installations and environments to eliminate the Biggest of Bads to maintain "balance" in the solar system. Instead we have "Random Number Grind: The Movie: The Game featuring Space Ninjas (Maybe. We can neither confirm nor deny that they are or are not ninjas at this point and all further questions should be directed to the marketing department)". Clearly there's been a disconnect between what the Developers THINK they're making and what they're ACTUALLY making. Edited January 20, 2014 by Volthorne

[Raze4573]

The game IS fast paced. I agree with Scrybatog, the current drop system IS adequate enough. Yes we had bumps on the road in the past and now the DETRONgate.
But for my 700 hrs I've played the game I have not said "Hmm this drop system should be changed.", instead there were countless "No!" and "Ah dammit!" but then came the "WOOHOO NEURODE!" shouts.
Leave. The drop system. Alone.
And to the pacing of the action, if youre playing a slow moving, heavy machine gun wielding Rhino, dont expect some sort of marathon running.
I kept changing Warframe during the Mars Infestation Outbreak from yesterday and lets face it, every 'frame has its traits and game style.
Excalibur felt wicked as I slash dashed my way through the infested. Rhino felt powerful and heavy, stomping around. Trinity felt weak but I kept parkouring and manipulating health points using her skills.
Besides, the grind whine is as old as the mmo genre, by now I wouldnt just expect...I'd -demand- people shut about it and accept that sometimes its the only way to go.
Sure they could go for a different system, sure you could think of something else than RNG and grind but they chose these solutions for a reason.
If you dont want to have grind games with randomness in them, unplug your internet connection and play Solitaire.

[tgipier]

Add me name to the list lol. I guess I would be a trader or something. 

[SoanoS]

I'm going to simply state I am rank 14 and have been playing for a long time (and am a founder), and I do not agree with the first 2 parts. I think drops are fine, and stamina is fine, and should not be changed.

Not bragging at all, eh? There is a badge on your forum avatar to indicate the possible founder status, no need to mention it separately to elevate yourself above others so that you can make your opinion sound superior. We are players, above all.

But let me entertain your need for superiority by telling you I am rank 12. I just cant be ar*ed to take rank 13 and 14 tests because ranks serve almost no purpose.

Now, back on topic...

I agree with every single thing said in the original post. This can't continue like this. Game needs to become rewarding and fun again. I don't mind even some extra challenge, as long as it is fair. What I am not not enjoying is playing same mission over and over and not getting anything useful in return. This is very definition of insanity. Doing same thing over and over again, expecting a different result.

"Drops are fine"... Yeah, right. You are either incredibly lucky or one of the "Prime Access" players (who bought their way past grind wall and should hold their silence about drops forever).

Edited January 20, 2014 by SoanoS

[Vandoore]

The game IS fast paced. I agree with Scrybatog, the current drop system IS adequate enough. Yes we had bumps on the road in the past and now the DETRONgate.

But for my 700 hrs I've played the game I have not said "Hmm this drop system should be changed.", instead there were countless "No!" and "Ah dammit!" but then came the "WOOHOO NEURODE!" shouts.

Leave. The drop system. Alone.

I ask you, what happens if more mods are introduced? How would that affect the drop system?

What happens when more warframes are introduced? How would that affect the drop system?

One thing we are trying to bring up in these discussion is what will happen next week/month/year whatever. For how long can the current system cope?

I'll agree with you, before the released ember, glaive and sicarus prime I had no issue with the drop system, it felt alright. There would be time I could run 15 void missions and not get anything I wanted, conversely when chasing the dakra prime I got that in the minimum runs needed. But now the problem is that system has been diluted too much, and if DE  "Leave. The drop system. Alone" it will only continue to do so.

 

Just something to think about

[General_Krull]

The game IS fast paced. I agree with Scrybatog, the current drop system IS adequate enough. Yes we had bumps on the road in the past and now the DETRONgate.

But for my 700 hrs I've played the game I have not said "Hmm this drop system should be changed.", instead there were countless "No!" and "Ah dammit!" but then came the "WOOHOO NEURODE!" shouts.

Leave. The drop system. Alone.

And to the pacing of the action, if youre playing a slow moving, heavy machine gun wielding Rhino, dont expect some sort of marathon running.

I kept changing Warframe during the Mars Infestation Outbreak from yesterday and lets face it, every 'frame has its traits and game style.

Excalibur felt wicked as I slash dashed my way through the infested. Rhino felt powerful and heavy, stomping around. Trinity felt weak but I kept parkouring and manipulating health points using her skills.

Besides, the grind whine is as old as the mmo genre, by now I wouldnt just expect...I'd -demand- people shut about it and accept that sometimes its the only way to go.

Sure they could go for a different system, sure you could think of something else than RNG and grind but they chose these solutions for a reason.

If you dont want to have grind games with randomness in them, unplug your internet connection and play Solitaire.

"If you want this game to change for the better then leave" Is that what you're saying?

[Scrybatog]

Not bragging at all, eh? There is a badge on your forum avatar to indicate the possible founder status, no need to mention it separately to elevate yourself above others so that you can make your opinion sound superior. We are players, above all.

But let me entertain your need for superiority by telling you I am rank 12. I just cant be ar*ed to take rank 13 and 14 tests because ranks serve almost no purpose.

I was being purposefully asinine in relation to the whole "veteran" thing... making sure I announce my position so that my "veteran" status may be judged by the powers that be, and mayhap find my claim just and honorable. Not bragging lol, moreso a hidden argument as to the legitimacy of this whole thread. Glad you caught on though... kind of. Don;t worry, my roommate can't pass his rank 13 test either.

 

"If you want this game to change for the better then leave" Is that what you're saying?

 

I think were saying that CERTAIN things shouldn't ever change (to do so would make the game feel entirely different), and one of them we both happen to agree on is RNG. Detron may have 1 too many layers, but even then its a choice whether to farm it or not, and I choose not to.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Scrybatog

[f3llyn]

I think at this point in time the game could use an entirely different feel. It grows more and more stale with each update.

[Volthorne]

But for my 700 hrs I've played the game I have not said "Hmm this drop system should be changed.", instead there were countless "No!" and "Ah dammit!" but then came the "WOOHOO NEURODE!" shouts.

Leave. The drop system. Alone.

We. Will change. It.

 

Know why? Because whenever I go farming for "rare" materials it goes something like "Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope (repeat x50)" and then when I finally get what I'm looking for it's not "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" it's "yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay" in the most half-assed and apathetic manner possible because I just don't @(*()$ care anymore. Can you believe that? I go into a mission for a specific purpose and upon achieving said purpose I no longer give a single damn because I've lost all interest.

 

 

And to the pacing of the action, if youre playing a slow moving, heavy machine gun wielding Rhino, dont expect some sort of marathon running.

I kept changing Warframe during the Mars Infestation Outbreak from yesterday and lets face it, every 'frame has its traits and game style.

Excalibur felt wicked as I slash dashed my way through the infested. Rhino felt powerful and heavy, stomping around. Trinity felt weak but I kept parkouring and manipulating health points using her skills.

I never mentioned which Warframe I use, thanks for putting words in my mouth. No, I don't use a slow-&#! Rhino. I use Volt. And even when sprint-slide chaining while trying to rush a mission I STILL feel like I'm running underwater or through molasses. Until that 2 button gets pushed, of course, and then the whole game changes, and I feel like I'm playing a real ninja (albeit on a really big caffeine high) for a few seconds. Face it: mobility doesn't count for a hell of a lot, and when it does suddenly you're not quite agile enough. Handsprings and sliding and flips and whatever don't count for S#&$ when the lowliest mook can hit you while you're "parkouring" (I'm not even sure what's implemented in WF deserves that name). Does it help? Some, yeah, especially against Corpus. But you're going to get hit eventually and if you REALLY need to NOT get hit (say some bad planning was done and your air runs out on Survival, and extraction is all the way across the stage), then you're SoL.

 

Besides, the grind whine is as old as the mmo genre, by now I wouldnt just expect...I'd -demand- people shut about it and accept that sometimes its the only way to go.

Sure they could go for a different system, sure you could think of something else than RNG and grind but they chose these solutions for a reason.

If you dont want to have grind games with randomness in them, unplug your internet connection and play Solitaire.

Believe it or not I'm perfectly A-Okay with SOME grind. I am willing to tolerate SOME randomness. I cannot stress that word enough. There is, however, an upper limit to "acceptable" and DE passed that a long time ago. Hell, the whole of Warframe is built AROUND the random and grind instead of incorporating it! It's basically like DE poured the foundation of a building and then after the cement a sink-hole formed and part of the foundation collapsed, threatening the structural integrity. De found it and said "oh, right, that shouldn't be there" and filled the crater with rubber. Well, guess what, now that decision has come back to bite them in the &#!, and their project could be coming down around their ears like a house of cards in the next few months if they're not willing to change.

 

Speaking of cards and solitaire, I think I'll have a few rounds. Much more fun than WF right now anyway.

[General_Krull]

I was being purposefully asinine in relation to the whole "veteran" thing... making sure I announce my position so that my "veteran" status may be judged by the powers that be, and mayhap find my claim just and honorable. Not bragging lol, moreso a hidden argument as to the legitimacy of this whole thread. Glad you caught on though... kind of. Don;t worry, my roommate can't pass his rank 13 test either.

 

 

I think were saying that CERTAIN things shouldn't ever change (to do so would make the game feel entirely different), and one of them we both happen to agree on is RNG. Detron may have 1 too many layers, but even then its a choice whether to farm it or not, and I choose not to.

So some guy says some veterans feel this way makes you think the entire thread is invalid? All the points he raises are invalid because you don't feel the same?

And you think it's fine entire game is build around rng? Maps are random, what enemies you get is random, drops are random. You're right making rng have less of an impact would change the feel of the game, for the better.

[BETAOPTICS]

What a bold claim to say that you somehow know what composition my group uses (you're dead wrong and it's why we've never revealed such information). I think somehow you're still dead set on your little infested victory. Infested are the easiest enemy in the game. I will hands down agree with a Vauban that you can go to any wave and it will be repetitive like you say. Any other faction? No. Enemy levels get harder in survival, which brings the challenge of killing them with consistency. If you do not kill them at the same rate as the early levels, you end up getting less and less oxygen. I have done a survival for 7 hours and I can tell you from my experience that there were numerous times where we had thought we were going to lose and hung on just barely. How can you speculate difficulty when sitting down there at 1 hour?

Sorry I know this was argued over and is off topic but doesn't this statement prove what Ced23Ric said. If this game truly had engame content, it wouldn't take 7 hours to become somewhat challenging and you most likely couldn't even last for 7 hours if true endgame content was in place.

[Raze4573]

I love how that reply was "Either you are with us or against us." Only a Sith deals in absolute. /sagenod
Am I telling you to leave? No. If you respond to my post in such manner I dont think you should be allowed in a public discussion. You present your view, I present my view. Neither views reflect the views of the entire community as A. not all players visit forums B. not all players posted in this thread so dont just throw something like that in the open.

Vandoore, if they add more content I am quite sure they will revamp the current content or add more. After all they did introduce new zones by taking moons, not just planets. I am quite sure more regions can be added to the current map or beyond the map, such as Orokin Void and Derelicts. Maybe we will see a Corpus mothership that will have 13 nodes because its just that big?

Volthorne, I used Volt for the bigger part of my Warframe experience and now I am going to say something with certainty, perhaps we had a different mod build. My Volt is not slow or drowning in tar. Its personal player experience.
The game itself IS fast paced and action packed, no argument will convince me that Warframe is a slow game where you spend two hours doing a mission. Also please remember all Warframes are different, have different goals, personally when I want to rush a mission I use either Ash or Loki because they in fact have a higher speed stat. Nonetheless, again its all a personal experience.

But also if you keep repeating missions, not getting the resource you want, try different mission, equip Master Thief, smash stuff up.
After some past update I cannot agree that rare materials are some sort of "omg one neurode per 5 months". And if you would get everything on first run, why would you keep playing? The game would be pointless if you could get every item, every resource in just one go.

So RNG and grind is good. I mean how else to replace it? With solid drop tables? They more or less already are. Enemies have a preset mod selection and a chance to drop resources. Bosses have mods + resources, some resources with a bigger drop chance than others.
Thats just how games are, you need to put time into playing to get what you want.

[General_Krull]

I love how that reply was "Either you are with us or against us." Only a Sith deals in absolute. /sagenod

Am I telling you to leave? No. If you respond to my post in such manner I dont think you should be allowed in a public discussion. You present your view, I present my view. Neither views reflect the views of the entire community as A. not all players visit forums B. not all players posted in this thread so dont just throw something like that in the open.

Vandoore, if they add more content I am quite sure they will revamp the current content or add more. After all they did introduce new zones by taking moons, not just planets. I am quite sure more regions can be added to the current map or beyond the map, such as Orokin Void and Derelicts. Maybe we will see a Corpus mothership that will have 13 nodes because its just that big?

Volthorne, I used Volt for the bigger part of my Warframe experience and now I am going to say something with certainty, perhaps we had a different mod build. My Volt is not slow or drowning in tar. Its personal player experience.

The game itself IS fast paced and action packed, no argument will convince me that Warframe is a slow game where you spend two hours doing a mission. Also please remember all Warframes are different, have different goals, personally when I want to rush a mission I use either Ash or Loki because they in fact have a higher speed stat. Nonetheless, again its all a personal experience.

But also if you keep repeating missions, not getting the resource you want, try different mission, equip Master Thief, smash stuff up.

After some past update I cannot agree that rare materials are some sort of "omg one neurode per 5 months". And if you would get everything on first run, why would you keep playing? The game would be pointless if you could get every item, every resource in just one go.

So RNG and grind is good. I mean how else to replace it? With solid drop tables? They more or less already are. Enemies have a preset mod selection and a chance to drop resources. Bosses have mods + resources, some resources with a bigger drop chance than others.

Thats just how games are, you need to put time into playing to get what you want.

RNG and grind are not content or gameplay. Why do you people think it is? If you remove grind and rng from warframe you will run out of things to do in few hours, so maybe they should add things to do other than shallow time sinks?

[Kyria]

I think a lot of the conflict here would have been avoided if the OP had just titled the topic a little more thoughtfully, but it also bought the topic some extra attention. All press is good press, I suppose - although I certainly would have weighed in differently and more favorably if the demeanor of some Veterans and participants had been more mature and welcomed actual discussion. It's a trade-off not easily noticed, but it serves the purpose of silencing a critical or questioning voice - and that might be a desirable aspect to some.

[General_Krull]

I think a lot of the conflict here would have been avoided if the OP had just titled the topic a little more thoughtfully, but it also bought the topic some extra attention. All press is good press, I suppose - although I certainly would have weighed in differently and more favorably if the demeanor of some Veterans and participants had been more mature and welcomed actual discussion. It's a trade-off not easily noticed, but it serves the purpose of silencing a critical or questioning voice - and that might be a desirable aspect to some.

How about people actually stop being nitpicky and actually read the OP and commented on OPs suggestions instead of trying derail the thread by going "I'm a veteran and I disagree! Now everything OP said is invalid forever!"

[Kyria]

How about people actually stop being nitpicky and actually read the OP and commented on OPs suggestions instead of trying derail the thread by going "I'm a veteran and I disagree! Now everything OP said is invalid forever!"

 

I was not being nitpicky - I was just providing an opinion/explaination on something that seemed to be a reoccuring theme in this topic. Why the hostility?

Edited January 20, 2014 by Kyria

[Baigan]

I sort of expected finger pointing but was speechless at how concise and reasonable the OP was. +1 and I really hope this opens actually active communication channels between the playerbase and the devs.