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An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

--collstro--

By --collstro--,
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RelaxJustLetItHappen

RelaxJustLetItHappen

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Posted (edited)

RNG and grind are not content or gameplay. Why do you people think it is? If you remove grind and rng from warframe you will run out of things to do in few hours, so maybe they should add things to do other than shallow time sinks?

RNG is psychology.  It's called intermittent, variable time reward systems.  A guy named B. F. Skinner did a lot of work with pigeons about it.  In short, he discovered if a reward is given for pecking on a random basis, pigeons will peck the most number of times, for the longest period of time.

 

We are pigeons pecking on a mouse.

Edited by RelaxJustLetItHappen
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IIJetfireII

IIJetfireII

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This letter is in no means speaking on behalf of all veteran players and not even all the veterans who I have been actively discussing these issues with over the past weeks. In time more of them will post their own letters outlying their concerns, but I assure you that many of the concerns listed below are shared by all.

Grind and Drop Rates

Beginning with Update 8 and the dojo resources, through the grind associated with obtaining the Burston Prime, (10 hours 50 minutes in my case,) and the yet too be obtained Detron, the grind in this game has increased to the point where even people such as myself who aren't opposed to grinding have already; or are very close to throwing in the towel. Your justification for encrypting the drop tables was that the codex would provide, in game what the data mined drop tables provided to players through third party websites. Sadly this is not the case.

The codex does not tell us which mods drop from which survival or defense mission or from which tier or faction. Data mined information did. The codex does not tell us which void mission type and tier requires to be played to get each Prime component. Data mined information did. The codex does not provide drop rates for anything. Data mined information did.

We require that you do as you said you would and have the codex provide us with the same information that was previously available to us. This way we can determine by the drop rates whether or not the item(s) we seek are worth the grind involved, and would permit the player base to give you feedback if it overwhelmingly believes the drop rates are too low. If you instist on maintaining that this game is still in Beta after you have over 4.5 million user accounts on PC alone, and have inked contracts with Sony, then treat us like Beta testers and give us enough information so we can give you informed feedback

Systemic Changes

Systemic changes like those to the damage and stamina systems need to be announced in detail prior to them being put into the game. This would have saved you from having to scramble to undo most of the changes to the stamina system when it was changed in ways no one in the player base expected and virtually no one liked

When introducing systemic changes like those to mods, damage, stamina, credits and the upcoming melee system, please do not release them too early. Please wait until Q&A has had adequate time to test them to be certain that they function better than the existing systems they are to replace. Continued tweaking of new systems is to be expected, but having the new system not functioning at least as well as the one it replaces does not benefit anyone.

Lore

You have been talking about adding lore into the game for nearly a year now. In the minds of most I've spoken to, 'lore' does not consist of stringing together a number of event descriptions and a couple of codex entries. Lore consists of a detailed and compelling story, whether it be a written story or a story campaign; of how the Tenno and their enemies (allies?) came to where we are now, and character development, so we are able to relate in some fashion to the characters we play as, and those who we fight against

Communication

For a studio who claims to want listen and talk to their players, evidenced by 1 to 2 live streams per week; we feel extremely underinformed when it comes to things like when the upcoming event will start and what the objectives of that event will be when it does. Cicero began at Midnight EST without any prior notice. For competitive players and clans this kind of lack of communication only fosters frustration and resentment towards DE when none need exist.

Before you make sweeping changes to the game like removing Infested from the Star Chart or putting Mutagen Samples only in the Derelict Void, you need to communicate your plans to the player base in some detail before doing so.

Patch notes need to be complete. At best they only contain 75% of the changes in each major patch

When discussing or previewing new additions to the game on the forums or on a Live Stream, please only discuss things that are going to be added to the game in a timely manner, (e.g. within the next two updates,) otherwise don't discuss or preview them publicly until they are. It only fosters frustration and resentment by the player base when you preview something and 6, 8, 10 months later it has yet to be added to the game.

Events

Competitive events (i.e. those with leaderboards,) need to be announced and thoroughly described several days before they start, so competitive clans and players can be prepared.

Competitive events need to last no longer than 3-4 days so the players who are competing don't risk their health by grinding too long. Individual rewards should require no more than 3 hours of game play during the event to qualify for, so that non-competitive players have ample time over the course of the event to play enough to receive them.

End Game Content

At this time the only end game content that exists in the game are Survival and Defense endurance missions lasting multiple hours where lag and drop in frame rate renders the game nearly unplayable. We need more challenging end game content that doesn't require sitting around for hours until it becomes challenging. I will leave it to others to outline what it could be, because I've heard many good ideas. But whatever it ends up being, something is desperately needed.

Whatever that content may be, it must be rewarding, but not in a way that you have to complete it in order to obtain a reward that can only be obtained by completing it. (i.e. Don't make it yet another excruciating grind.)

I write this letter because, I and many other veterans; some of whom have direct and regular contact with DE developers have repeatedly voiced our concerns on these issues, yet nothing has ever come of it. In fact, things have gotten worse than they were before.

Many veteran players have already left, and many, many more are on the verge of leaving if these issues aren't finally addressed. And if you read this and are thinking 'good riddance, we don't need them anyway,' then you're sorely mistaken. It's the veterans who run prominent clans, and teach the newer players about game mechanics like mod fusion, (nothing in game does,) how to play and proper etiquette while playing, and a host of other things. And if you intend to keep this game alive you want to retain all the veterans you can, and have as many new players in this game play long enough that they too become veterans, since the longer someone plays, the more chances you have to get them to spend money.

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration,

--collstro-- (Co-Founder of clans 'Spectres N7' and 'X Spectres')

you have my vote +1 . there's nothing i have to state since you have already stated the main ones such as grind and drop rate,lore,endgame content, which are the main ones i wish they consider about it.

Detron is the final weapon in WF for me and i am mastery rank 14,so there's nothing more than just,grinding after that.

Edited by IIRodimusprimeII
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matto

matto

Posted
Posted

RNG is psychology.  It's called intermittent, variable time reward systems.  A guy named B. F. Skinner did a lot of work with pigeons about it.  In short, he discovered if a reward is given for pecking on a random basis, pigeons will peck the most number of times, for the longest period of time.

 

We are pigeons pecking on a mouse.

 

Except that Skinner did that with food, which is vital.

 

Do it with a game, and you'll have to bypass one of the best defense of our brain : the boredom effect.

 

When you feel bored, it is just your brain saying "hey dude, let's stop doing this and do something that will help us survive in this world instead".

Indeed, boredom is just what makes you keep going in the evolution race.

 

The problem with Warframe is that the main solution to bypass this bordedom has been based on visual effects : speed of the game (that's why changing the stamina system was bad), number of mobs (adrenaline), PhysX for Nvidia players, etc.

 

While lore, role playing, social pressure (cosmetics, exclusive items, leaderboards) etc. are some other ways to keep your players that are kind of missing in Warframe.

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DJ_Redwire

DJ_Redwire

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Already posted initially but might as well post an actual opinion. I'm not a veteran compared to most but I've put significantly more money and time into Warframe than all other games I've ever played combined (No joke, I did the math). It's hard to know how to tackle the issues when you haven't been around as long and haven't seen the cycles repeat themselves as they evidently have. When I started, all I could really see was the cool and flashy parts of Warframe, but as time has gone by in the few short months I've been playing the problems have transformed from petty issues to unavoidable nuisances.

 

Having only been around since late August, I can't really claim that I have a firm grasp on where Warframe should head and what steps need to be taken, but I am willing to trust the users who have invested far more than I have into the game to have the wisdom and experience to tackle the problems in ways where everyone will benefit. 

 

In the past game communities I've partaken in, I've never seen a company as transparent as DE - but I don't think that means we should just pat them on the back and call it a day. It simply shows what they're capable of, and we must continue to push them to the next step if we really want Warframe to succeed. And although I haven't been around that long, I think I can honestly say that the Warframe community has proven its willingness to provide DE with whatever resources they need to make the game reach new heights. All they need to do is ask and then listen.

 

The ball's in your court DE.

Edited by DJ_Redwire
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se05239

se05239

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Posted

But how easy it is to get HAS been changed. You don't have to have both the Stalker Deathmark and the Harvest mark anymore, for instance. Just the Harvest mark now.

It is the Detron and its recipe you wont likely see changed. DE has instead chosen to tweak Harvester and Invasions instead.

 

Its still chance, though, and that is what makes it bad.

It doesn't matter that DE made it "easier" to get because there is gonna be people that NEVER will get Detron, just because of the pure random chance.

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Plasmapause

Plasmapause

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I don't usually post on the forums, but I will do to say I agree with the majority of the main post (although it could be condensed). I really hope some changes are made that are listed in the first post, there are plenty of issues to addressed, but those in the first post, in my opinion should be should be on the top of DE's list of things to do. 

 

Aadil, member of Gryphus Tech Corporation, veteran player. 

Edited by Aadil
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H0PE

H0PE

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There is trust issues between DE and us. /euphemism

 

I woudln't call it trust issue.

They BELIEVE (even if you give logical or living-examples for them being incorrect) in something that they created and THINK that this is the only way how it should be done. Politely ignoring others' ideas, thoughts even if its helpful and would add something even more positive to the game.

 

This is how most of the game dev. companies working nowadays. Very simple to see this and the proof is on every game forums: people telling them "this is a bug", or "this is a logical error" or "this issue hurting the game on the long run".

I can put my neck on it that less than 10% of the time you actualy either don't get response from devs or they will think about it or not supporting it at all.

 

Hype boys and people who like communities struggle or see them being destroyed completely adds to the chaos.

 

Another good example I can give you: Diablo 2 and 3 having micro stuttering since day one. Yet blizzard (seemingly) ignoring the problem. You can go do a search on google, on blizzard forums, the issue exists but no real answer, and definitely no fix for it.

Edited by H0PE
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Plasmapause

Plasmapause

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I woudln't call it trust issue.

They BELIEVE (even if you give logical or living-examples for them being incorrect) in something that they created and THINK that this is the only way how it should be done. Politely ignoring others' ideas, thoughts even if its helpful and would add something even more positive to the game.

 

This is how most of the game dev. companies working nowadays. Very simple to see this and the proof is on every game forums: people telling them "this is a bug", or "this is a logical error" or "this issue hurting the game on the long run".

I can put my neck on it that less than 10% of the time you actualy either don't get response from devs or they will think about it or not supporting it at all.

 

Hype boys and people who like communities struggle or see them being destroyed completely adds to the chaos.

 

Another good example I can give you: Diablo 2 and 3 having micro stuttering since day one. Yet blizzard (seemingly) ignoring the problem. You can go do a search on google, on blizzard forums, the issue exists but no real answer, and definitely no fix for it.

I'll give you a more recent and far better example: Mechwarrior online, just read the articles below

http://www.starburstmagazine.com/gaming-news/6649-movie-news-mechwarrior-online

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2013/12/15/free-to-play-mechwarrior-online-offends-players-with-500-golden-mechs/

http://themittani.com/features/mwo-failure-communicate

http://www.gamefront.com/mechwarrior-online-forum-ragesplosion/

Edited by Aadil
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se05239

se05239

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Posted

 

Wow, that is some heavy stuff.

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Virtus_Dei_Est

Virtus_Dei_Est

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so many things here that reminds me of warframe.

 

+1 for showing this.

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LukeAura

LukeAura

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That is incredibly disturbing how some of those complaints match up to warframe. 

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Mak_Gohae

Mak_Gohae

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You're summarizing his argument until it doesn't make sense anymore. That makes you look like an idiot. Not him.

 

 

I didnt summarize anything, i asked a question based on a statement made on that post.

Why are people having difficulty with this?

The post i quote isnt not that long... did i actually need to highlight that last sentence in the first paragraph?

And i am just asking a question, how does asking a question make anyone look like anything.

 

Some one made a claim then i ask for clarification, what's the trouble with this?

 

 

 

That is incredibly disturbing how some of those complaints match up to warframe. 

 

Is this game still in beta?

Cause then it's really incredibly disturbing how people across different games dont understand certain things as a game is being built.

Edited by Mak_Gohae
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KvotheTheArcane1

KvotheTheArcane1

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I didnt summarize anything, i asked a question based on a statement made on that post.

Why are people having difficulty with this?

The post i quote isnt not that long... did i actually need to highlight that last sentence in the first paragraph?

And i am just asking a question, how does asking a question make anyone look like anything.

 

Some one made a claim then i ask for clarification, what's the trouble with this?

Your question was an obvious oversimplification of everything in this thread. It's not just the detron that causes players to start leaving, it's simply the straw that broke the camels back so they say.

 

Is this game still in beta?

Cause then it's really incredibly disturbing how people across different games dont understand certain things as a game is being built.

IIRC MWO is was in beta, and it seems to be failing pretty well. Beta has nothing to do with this at all.

 

Beta is not a catch all excuse, and the term beta is made even more muddied because tons of beta games are now charging in some way (be it F2P "betas", steam's early access, etc), compared to when betas were betas and all that was expected in it was feedback (even if it was a simple line of "This game is really good/bad/ok"), and didn't charge money until they were released (i.e. no cash shops)

Edited by KvotheTheArcane1
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Chupacabra

Chupacabra

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That last article... holy @#$%. +1

 

Anyhow, Chupacabra, been here since CB 500+ hours, Co-founder of "PussyCats" (don't laugh) would also like to co-sign this. +1 --collistro-- and all other contributors, vet or not (who cares) we all want this game to be better. 

 

#WeAreNotHarvesters

Edited by Chupacabra
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matto

matto

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Posted

The people responsible for fixing the burning big picture/system issues (often defined or pointed to as End-Game, Lore, RNG, useless melee by our players) are not the same people responsible for this week's Tenno Reinforcements. It's frustrating, but prolonged attention in different areas means the releases of the content that players suffering serious burnout want to see won't happen every week. A new gun is nothing to a player that's played it all, that is known - as much as I wish we had a Golden Goose this week, we don't.

 

On last update thread (11.8.0)

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Volthorne

Volthorne

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Ah, ok, so the complaints were still from the beta (seeing as how the big rage was shortly after the summer ended)

You'll have to be more specific about which complaints you mean, as the MW:O player-base tends to be rather bipolar sometimes (I would know, being a member of said player-base). People raged about not enough maps, and then too many maps, and then LRMs were too strong, and then they were too weak, and I could go on for a week. Yes, there have been a few large points of contention (coolant gate, 3PV debacle, Clans package using a horrible pricing scheme (fixed), Jesus-in-a-box ECM (partially fixed)) but they were all put in with good intentions, to help the less.... skilled players (where applicable. Obviously a new player isn't going to be buying tens of dollars worth of 'Mechs). I can't with good faith say the same about most of what DE does.

Edited by Volthorne
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DJ_Redwire

DJ_Redwire

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Posted

That last article... holy @#$%. +1

 

That last article was indeed very hard to read - so many parallels in so many ways. I felt like I was living in the 1940's reading a history book about Napolean invading Russia, all the while Operation Barbarossa was in full swing.

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