An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[Redlove108]

So I read a few pages of this but not all of it. Has DE staff addressed or even replied to any of this here? Just curious.

[Ishki88]

I have a question.

 

I honestly feel one of the BIGGEST problems right now is.

 

Horrible AI.

 

Have they made a comment on potential better AI?

 

If you mean to tell me better AI =Grineer Squad leaders buffing grineer soldiers or w/e they were talking about....then *shakes head*

[Kaian-a-coel]

No.

 

EDIT: if it wasn't clear I was answering the question two posts above: No, DE did not comment on that thread. Not besides "we know it exists".

 

There is a post in DC about "better AI", but all I remember from it is "we're going to make more cover animations".

Edited January 26, 2014 by Kaian-a-coel

[Legion-Shields]

No.

.

[NikolaiLev]

If someone with 460 hours counts as a veteran, then you may put me down there too.

 

It really seems like DE doesn't listen to the community much at all.  Frankly, it's like they look at the easy changes to make, throw them in the hot topics, and pretend like they care.  They don't rely on community feedback as much as they should.

 

Grind is the easiest way to tell.

 

 

 

I have a question.

 

I honestly feel one of the BIGGEST problems right now is.

 

Horrible AI.

 

Have they made a comment on potential better AI?

 

If you mean to tell me better AI =Grineer Squad leaders buffing grineer soldiers or w/e they were talking about....then *shakes head*

 

I agree, and was disappointed to not see this in the OP.  But then again, Warframe has so many problems it's not surprising.

Edited January 26, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[Bakercompany86]

In my opinion the AI is good enough for now.  I'd rather focus on the content issue.

[Overlord_Hades]

I really do love this game and it has a lot of potential but I completely agree with you. If they can address these issues then the game will be in a much better place and I cant wait to see what they do in the future. Mastery 14 almost 15 with 580 hours played, if thats considered veteran enough you can add me to that list of people who agree, im a newer member of Crescent Moon.

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

I agree entirely with the OP.

[skynexus]

So I read a few pages of this but not all of it. Has DE staff addressed or even replied to any of this here? Just curious.

 

 

No.

 

EDIT: if it wasn't clear I was answering the question two posts above: No, DE did not comment on that thread. Not besides "we know it exists".

 

There is a post in DC about "better AI", but all I remember from it is "we're going to make more cover animations".

dam.......i was hoping they at least address some issues posted in this thread or use some of the ideas people have posted but  "we know it exists" is making me feel like they dont even care i mean is there some lack of communication between the community and DE or is this thread simply and empty chat box with no result's to show if they would of said were working on it i would clap my hands but no instead all i see i more art and drawings....if i have offended anybody then realize you are only denying the truth and also if your going to reply to me dont reply with meaningless insults,anyways if anybody knows anything please tell me whats going on with this im not quitting the game well unless nothing changes but im still hanging on other's may have already let go but im sure they can turn this around i dont really know what's going on at DE HQ but i'll understand if there actually working hard you know maybe the demands might take some more time they probably have a whole bunch of stuff they haven't finished yet? but nobody like's vague response's me personally i like my answers straight up i like the truth like an yes or no question maybe is not an answer hope everybody understood that good day and good luck PEACE

Edited January 26, 2014 by skynexus

[NikolaiLev]

dam.......i was hoping they at least address some issues posted in this thread or use some of the ideas people have posted but  "we know it exists" is making me feel like they dont even care i mean is there some lack of communication between the community and DE or is this thread simply and empty chat box with no result's to show if they would of said were working on it i would clap my hands but no instead all i see i more art and drawings....if i have offended anybody then realize you are only denying the truth and also if your going to reply to me dont reply with meaningless insults,anyways if anybody knows anything please tell me whats going on with this im not quitting the game well unless nothing changes but im still hanging on other's may have already let go but im sure they can turn this around i dont really know what's going on at DE HQ but i'll understand if there actually working hard you know maybe the demands might take some more time they probably have a whole bunch of stuff they haven't finished yet? but nobody like's vague response's me personally i like my answers straight up i like the truth like an yes or no question maybe is not an answer hope everybody understood that good day and good luck PEACE

 

They don't care terribly much, at least not the people who make the decisions.  Somebody cares at DE, they're just not in a position to make these things happen.

 

It's not profitable enough.

[Vandoore]

They don't care terribly much, at least not the people who make the decisions.  Somebody cares at DE, they're just not in a position to make these things happen.

 

It's not profitable enough.

 

Not necessarily true. They may actually care a great deal, however we don't know what is going on, and DE have been sliding downhill on the communication slope.

 

What we have are regular weapon updates, so that just means the arts team is having loads of fun creating new skins, but we don't now what the rest of the team is doing.

[NikolaiLev]

Not necessarily true. They may actually care a great deal, however we don't know what is going on, and DE have been sliding downhill on the communication slope.

 

What we have are regular weapon updates, so that just means the arts team is having loads of fun creating new skins, but we don't now what the rest of the team is doing.

 

Yes we do.  The answer is, "Not much."

 

As I said, since update 8, less grind has been an assurance that has not been fulfilled.  The people they send to livestreams seem to hate talking about what they're doing.  Melee 2.0 was the primary topic and we got a scarce, uncertain amount of information.  Progress has been depressingly slow for such a gigantic company, even with two platforms to develop for.

 

There are actual community hot topics that go utterly ignored.  A developer posted they were "aware" of the "Complete overhaul" thread, and yet there's been no feedback from the developers regarding how they're going to work on it.

 

Honestly, from watching the livestreams and seeing the few dev posts that come about, the lead designers seem smugly satisfied with their game and scoff at the notion it could be improved much.  Just look at the response to criticism about things like Saryn's art design and Banshee's feet.  Small things, sure.  But it adds up over time, and it certainly wasn't the first thing.

[S5alad]

Yes we do.  The answer is, "Not much."

 

As I said, since update 8, less grind has been an assurance that has not been fulfilled.  The people they send to livestreams seem to hate talking about what they're doing.  Melee 2.0 was the primary topic and we got a scarce, uncertain amount of information.  Progress has been depressingly slow for such a gigantic company, even with two platforms to develop for.

 

There are actual community hot topics that go utterly ignored.  A developer posted they were "aware" of the "Complete overhaul" thread, and yet there's been no feedback from the developers regarding how they're going to work on it.

 

Honestly, from watching the livestreams and seeing the few dev posts that come about, the lead designers seem smugly satisfied with their game and scoff at the notion it could be improved much.  Just look at the response to criticism about things like Saryn's art design and Banshee's feet.  Small things, sure.  But it adds up over time, and it certainly wasn't the first thing.

My best advice is to halt all platinum purchases and quit the game, coming back to it at a later point.  I feel that if there's enough player dropoff, then it will send a loud message to the developers.

 

As disappointed as I am at Digital Extremes, I cannot express how much more so I am at all my fellow veteran players, who hopped back into the game full time as soon as there was a Harvester tweak.  They ignored the two weeks of wasted grinding prior to that, instantly forgiving DE's abusive behavior towards their gaming experience, just like DE wanted.  They will continue to lightly bandage insignificant issues as long as we veterans enable them to do so.

[Bazools]

As disappointed as I am at Digital Extremes, I cannot express how much more so I am at all my fellow veteran players, who hopped back into the game full time as soon as there was a Harvester tweak.  They ignored the two weeks of wasted grinding prior to that, instantly forgiving DE's abusive behavior towards their gaming experience, just like DE wanted.  They will continue to lightly bandage insignificant issues as long as we veterans enable them to do so.

Do you really think that just because the Harvester spawn was tweaked that fellow veterans forgot what as been discussed in this thread?

I think that people are indeed taking a break and waiting to see what DE comes up with for U12 and U13 (lore update i hope).

Edited January 30, 2014 by Bazools

[TheNZX]

I agree with the core ideals of the OP's letter.

 

This game needs a clear understanding of its weapon tier system (mods included) and where the enemies are placed in that system.

 

As it stands, a lot of weapons are hilariously overpowered with Serration, Multishot, etc.

 

The easiest way to start on this would be to down grade them and remove multi-shot or at least penalize it. 

[Blasphemy77]

Not sure what constitutes as a vetran.

 

I have over 400 hours in 50 days.

Multiply formed frames.

All mods for those builds maxed.

Multiple formed weapons also with all mods for these builds maxed.

 

I agree with everything in the original post and support it completely.  Please institute these changes effective yesterday.

[Blasphemy77]

 

I agree with the core ideals of the OP's letter.

 

This game needs a clear understanding of its weapon tier system (mods included) and where the enemies are placed in that system.

 

As it stands, a lot of weapons are hilariously overpowered with Serration, Multishot, etc.

 

The easiest way to start on this would be to down grade them and remove multi-shot or at least penalize it. 

 

The only effect this would have is to reduce the power gaming aspect of guns and fix nothing else.  What about the aoe frames that wipe whole rooms in 1 sec?  Also with this change I would only need to grind through survival for 40 minutes until it becomes challenging.  I don't see this as viable and would probably drive more players away than it would keep.  Nerfing pisses everyone off.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

The only effect this would have is to reduce the power gaming aspect of guns and fix nothing else.  What about the aoe frames that wipe whole rooms in 1 sec?  Also with this change I would only need to grind through survival for 40 minutes until it becomes challenging.  I don't see this as viable and would probably drive more players away than it would keep.  Nerfing &!$$es everyone off.

But it would force DE to use something besides scaling (i.e. enemies immune unless you hit a weakpoint/stun them in melee/flank them or improving AI)

And make weapons deal more damage as they level up perhaps, but the damage mods create the illusion of choice. Who would argue that fast hands is better than serration? Not even a maxed serration, just a serration with say, 5-6 levels on it.

[NikolaiLev]

The only effect this would have is to reduce the power gaming aspect of guns and fix nothing else.  What about the aoe frames that wipe whole rooms in 1 sec?  Also with this change I would only need to grind through survival for 40 minutes until it becomes challenging.  I don't see this as viable and would probably drive more players away than it would keep.  Nerfing &!$$es everyone off.

 

Then reduce the effectiveness of AoE frames.  And if the game isn't challenging enough, more challenging content should be implemented.

 

Nerfing only angers those who don't understand balance design, and their opinions should generally be ignored.

[Blatantfool]

Then reduce the effectiveness of AoE frames.  And if the game isn't challenging enough, more challenging content should be implemented.

 

Nerfing only angers those who don't understand balance design, and their opinions should generally be ignored.

 

 The mistake you're making is in bold.

 

 You'd be right to say that most players wont be mad about a well deserved nerf. But there are a great many who would be upset if DE tries to solve every problem that comes up by doing that sort of thing. There are more options when dealing with game balance then just buffing or nerfing existing items.

 

 For instance, Nova would be a good bit less dangerous if an enemy type existed capable of buffing its allies and preventing status effects.

 

 It is possible and is valuable to create balance by adding to what is there. You are not always stuck trying to buff or nerf things.

[Critik]

As a Closed Beta player (I have the Lato Vandal to prove it), Master Founder and fan of Warframe long after a great number of my friends slowed or entirely stopped playing, many of them citing grind or nothing to do--

 

I find the fact that this thread has existed for 20 days without a meaningful response appalling.

 

I am a warlord in a small clan, just me and my friends, but I will say this: I agree with everything in the OP post, and I further voice my own personal suspicions that the obfuscation of data we were able to freely mine before was not for design purposes, but to keep people from figuring out the odds. Because the last time people figured out the odds, Warframe collapsed. They had to issue a public apology and give out a paltry 50 plat as proof they were sorry.

 

Your Veterans may forgive the occasional mistake, DE... but they don't forget. And I suspect they won't forget waiting so long for a response, either.

[Blatantfool]

I find the fact that this thread has existed for 20 days without a meaningful response appalling.

 

 What do you honestly expect them to be able to say about it? Do you want an apology? They've done that. Over and over in fact. I've noticed nobody seems to care about that. Do you want promises? I think you and me both know promises don't fix the things in this thread. In fact, it just makes it worse if something DE can't help hurts the promise.

 

 Genuine curiosity. This thread has been read through plenty. I'm honestly wondering, at this stage, what response you expect. Because when you get down to it - there isn't a whole lot that can be said. This isn't a 'words' problem. This is a bind caused by patience wearing thin and DE moving a pretty specific speed. Rough patch after rough patch has worn many of the people talking here down. Annoyed or frustrated them into piping up and speaking honestly about what ails them. That is good enough. The only way it could be better is if these same people would work to collaborate with the people on this forum to try and churn out solutions that a lot of people can get behind. 

[General_Krull]

 What do you honestly expect them to be able to say about it? Do you want an apology? They've done that. Over and over in fact. I've noticed nobody seems to care about that. Do you want promises? I think you and me both know promises don't fix the things in this thread. In fact, it just makes it worse if something DE can't help hurts the promise.

 

 Genuine curiosity. This thread has been read through plenty. I'm honestly wondering, at this stage, what response you expect. Because when you get down to it - there isn't a whole lot that can be said. This isn't a 'words' problem. This is a bind caused by patience wearing thin and DE moving a pretty specific speed. Rough patch after rough patch has worn many of the people talking here down. Annoyed or frustrated them into piping up and speaking honestly about what ails them. That is good enough. The only way it could be better is if these same people would work to collaborate with the people on this forum to try and churn out solutions that a lot of people can get behind. 

I'd like some actual response as to what they are planning on doing. What is their plan for end game? What about early game? Do they actually plan to revisit and balance existing weapons and frames? Stuff like that. Answers to questions we have asked that aren't unreasonable.

 

Sheldon offered no insight as to what their end game is, it was all "lol spoilers you don't deserve to know what we are working on :)" which is insulting. Maybe they should say what they are working on so we can then say if it's a good idea or not. Remember that these are the people who thought exp 2.0 was a good idea.

[Monolake]

 The mistake you're making is in bold.

 

 You'd be right to say that most players wont be mad about a well deserved nerf. But there are a great many who would be upset if DE tries to solve every problem that comes up by doing that sort of thing. There are more options when dealing with game balance then just buffing or nerfing existing items.

 

 For instance, Nova would be a good bit less dangerous if an enemy type existed capable of buffing its allies and preventing status effects.

 

 It is possible and is valuable to create balance by adding to what is there. You are not always stuck trying to buff or nerf things.

For instance... that would only make other frames even worse, not affecting the relative frames balance.  You cant fix gross disbalances without nerfs, dont have to be direct nerfs even, dont lower the damage - lower speed, increase cost etc. Gamedesigners understand that. 

Upsettinig? Many people are clearly upset at the broken balance that already exists and not being addressed. 

[Blatantfool]

I'd like some actual response as to what they are planning on doing. What is their plan for end game? What about early game? Do they actually plan to revisit and balance existing weapons and frames? Stuff like that. Answers to questions we have asked that aren't unreasonable.

Sheldon offered no insight as to what their end game is, it was all "lol spoilers you don't deserve to know what we are working on :)" which is insulting. Maybe they should say what they are working on so we can then say if it's a good idea or not. Remember that these are the people who thought exp 2.0 was a good idea.

On that we agree. It is incredibly silly that they wont tell us the direction they want to go. It worsens feedback as well. But that isn't something they'd respond to this thread specifically about. It is something they've got to respond to the community about. This thread was not the start of some new craze or line of thinking. This is just the largest deposit of this sort of feedback on the forums right now.

I'm all for them stepping up and actually talking about what they want. Even if the community doesn't like what they want it is still positive to hear about it. XP 2.0 is a good example of that. They talked about what they wanted to change and made a pretty good choice based on the negative feedback. Saved them having to roll back an atrocious update.

For instance... that would only make other frames even worse, not affecting the relative frames balance. You cant fix gross disbalances without nerfs, dont have to be direct nerfs even, dont lower the damage - lower speed, increase cost etc. Gamedesigners understand that.

Upsettinig? Many people are clearly upset at the broken balance that already exists and not being addressed.

You are still thinking in a pretty narrow fashion. Read the last two lines again. I didn't imply it'd fix the Nova imbalance. I implied she'd become less powerful, which could easily mean that a nerf would either become unnecessary or much less severe. Hard to predict the actual outcome of a hypothetical change. She'd loose strength a good bit too depending on the strength of the bad guy you add - if there was an enemy type capable of nullifying her MPrime she would lose quite a lot of effectiveness in the current setting, considering how she is used.

Meanwhile you'll notice very few other frame relying on a status effect for their ultimate. The Frames getting effected would be Saryn and Nova. But then again - the obstacle here is an enemy. Something you can just kill. So paying a little attention and putting your gun to work is the quick fix. Which is a good thing, by the way, because a game is more challenging if the enemies you fight can counteract what you can do - it is also more fun if a little skill can let you win out over your counter.

But anyway, you can fix things - a hell of a lot of things - by adding to the game. Not just by buffing or nerfing. Technically they are all necessary to different extents. But balance is not so simple as there being a single correct way to go about it. It is a process of tweaking and filling in little gaps you create while you build on the game. You'd be arguing the same thing I am if you understood that.