An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[Monolake]

You are still thinking in a pretty narrow fashion. Read the last two lines again. I didn't imply it'd fix the Nova imbalance. I implied she'd become less powerful, which could easily mean that a nerf would either become unnecessary or much less severe. Hard to predict the actual outcome of a hypothetical change. She'd loose strength a good bit too depending on the strength of the bad guy you add - if there was an enemy type capable of nullifying her MPrime she would lose quite a lot of effectiveness in the current setting, considering how she is used.

Meanwhile you'll notice very few other frame relying on a status effect for their ultimate. The Frames getting effected would be Saryn and Nova. But then again - the obstacle here is an enemy. Something you can just kill. So paying a little attention and putting your gun to work is the quick fix. Which is a good thing, by the way, because a game is more challenging if the enemies you fight can counteract what you can do - it is also more fun if a little skill can let you win out over your counter.

But anyway, you can fix things - a hell of a lot of things - by adding to the game. Not just by buffing or nerfing. Technically they are all necessary to different extents. But balance is not so simple as there being a single correct way to go about it. It is a process of tweaking and filling in little gaps you create while you build on the game. You'd be arguing the same thing I am if you understood that.

Now you are just contradicting yourself, if she becomes less powerfull = thats a nerf already. Buffing enemies against a specific ability effectively equals nerfing the ability, except its a bad hidden way of doing it and unfortunately this game is already plagued by such thing - a bunch of different unintuitive resistances with lack of any in-game informations. Shoehorning frames vs specific factions is pretty bad idea to begin with, when its not communicated to players in any way in the game. M-prime explosion is already several times weaker on boxheads btw, since it targets heads, and how are players supposed to know that? 

Anyway I pretty much gave up on DEs ability to improve anything game-design wise after what they'v done to Saryn for example and many other things. Just enjoy whats good there and avoid broken things be them UP/OP or simply boring. 

[alchemistjkt]

-snip-

+1 good sir.

 

Just enjoy whats good there and avoid broken things be them UP/OP or simply boring. 

sad that this is the code we must live by to get past many of the problems we currently have.

even more so for issues that have been around forever and a day... the longer said problems persist, the more disillusioned/disappointed i become.

[Blatantfool]

Now you are just contradicting yourself, if she becomes less powerfull = thats a nerf already. Buffing enemies against a specific ability effectively equals nerfing the ability, except its a bad hidden way of doing it and unfortunately this game is already plagued by such thing - a bunch of different unintuitive resistances with lack of any in-game informations. Shoehorning frames vs specific factions is pretty bad idea to begin with, when its not communicated to players in any way in the game. M-prime explosion is already several times weaker on boxheads btw, since it targets heads, and how are players supposed to know that? 

Anyway I pretty much gave up on DEs ability to improve anything game-design wise after what they'v done to Saryn for example and many other things. Just enjoy whats good there and avoid broken things be them UP/OP or simply boring. 

 

 But it is incorrect to assume it is bad or hidden away. You see this in games ALL the time. It is almost as common as belts in Japanese RPG's.

 

 Sometimes - instead of simply hitting the damage numbers or effects of a skill - you introduce an enemy that puts the player in a position where they'll have to deal with a clear and easy to understand counter to the gameplay style they've chosen. Putting them in this position and having them get passed it typically makes for good gameplay.

 

 Imagine if there WAS an enemy who could use a skill of his own to release a pulse of energy. His buddies who get touched by the wave get a specific period were they'll simply be immune to skills like MPrime.

 

 Your options there are simple. Locate and pick off the unit causing your problem, then MPrime and do your thing, or simple not MPrime at all and follow through on this specific fight in a different fashion until you're clear of your problem.

 

 Keep in mind, earlier, when I'm speaking about Buff/Nerf as a concept - I meant weakening or strengthening a Skill or item by changing its numbers or effectiveness outright. I'm arguing that doing such a thing is only one part of proper and interesting game balance. Another part is making skill require a little more thought or timing to use. Having distinct times when it may be a really good or really poor idea to use energy in certain ways because the enemies aren't simply lemming waiting to be hit with someone's 4.

[LoGicMoTion]

Will this thread ever end?

[InhumaneSlayer]

Will this thread ever end?

  The Truth will never end.. This thread is nothing but spot on, DE Should read and change the game based on this.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Will this thread ever end?

Maybe when they fix what problems they have (i.e. AI, horrible communication, lack of challenge, lack of real content)

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

Will this thread ever end?

 

being so far and not ending is a sign on its own.

 

nothing has changed, but hey, now you have a new shiny akmagnum (nerfed in less than 5 hours) and a useless mod (yes, useless, like heavy impact, that should be inherent to the frame and not meant to be a waste of a slot).

 

yay?

[LoGicMoTion]

Complain Complain Complain 

Whine Whine Whine. 

 

What this thread should be called.

 

I have a friend that plays this game he does not go on the forums and I want to keep as many people away from the forums as i can because honeslty its nothing but people Listing wrongs with the game. There is not a single Co-op Multiplayer game that has complete balance that is perfect Warframe not the first to have problems and certainly not the last.

 

You guys need to take in to consideration that they cant solve every single issue and any given moment these are human beings not robots.

 

show consideration.

 

Best Regards,

Edited January 30, 2014 by LoGicMoTion

[Kaian-a-coel]

Akmagnus nerf was a typo. They put double damage by mistake and rectified it to the normal level. It's not a nerf, it's a bugfix.

 

I won't judge the value of a 20% damage reduction without testing it.

 

On the topic of nerfs, I follow Blatantfool there. Adding an enemy that can nullify MPrime is indeed a form of nerf, but one that can be worked around with a tiny little bit of skill, unlike a simple number nerf. MPrime is still as powerful, but you can't mindlessly spam it anymore, you have to hunt down and kill the dispel sucker before.

 

NINJEDIT:

 

 

Complain Complain Complain 

Whine Whine Whine. 

 

What this thread should be called.

 

I have a friend that plays this game he does not go on the forums and I want to keep as many people away from the forums as i can because honeslty its nothing but people Listing wrongs with the game. There is not a single Co-op Multiplayer game that has complete balance that is perfect Warframe not the first to have problems and certainly not the last.

 

You guys need to take in to consideration that they can solve every single issue and any given moment these are human beings not robots.

 

show consideration.

 

Best Regards,

Have you been here for a year and seen everything BUT what was promised happen? Have you seen all your legitimate complaints and suggestions ignored? Have you even cared for the future of this game and seen it became less and less optimistic every week? Have you even considered that because other games do it doesn't make it more acceptable?

They had months to solve those issues and haven't even begun fixing any of them.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Kaian-a-coel

[Earthworm_Jim]

Complain Complain Complain 

Whine Whine Whine. 

 

What this thread should be called.

 

I have a friend that plays this game he does not go on the forums and I want to keep as many people away from the forums as i can because honeslty its nothing but people Listing wrongs with the game. There is not a single Co-op Multiplayer game that has complete balance that is perfect Warframe not the first to have problems and certainly not the last.

 

You guys need to take in to consideration that they can solve every single issue and any given moment these are human beings not robots.

 

show consideration.

 

Best Regards,

This is a game in a beta. We are supposed to be finding the things wrong with the game and bring it to the attention of the developers. That is the entire purpose of a beta.

 

If you bring your car in to an auto mechanic, the mechanic is not going to tell you that your muffler is in great condition or that your brake pads look great. The mechanic is going to tell you that your spark plugs are worn out, there's a wiring problem in the passenger-side door, and that your power steering belt is wearing out and needs to be replaced.

 

While there are some people in this thread who've made unconstructive critique which is very similar to whining, there is also a whole lot of constructive critique from people who've been watching this game develop and progress and have heard what the developers have said, promised, and claimed over the course of that development cycle.

 

It is not accurate or fair to lump everything together and call it whining just because you may not agree with it.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Complain Complain Complain 

Whine Whine Whine. 

 

What this thread should be called.

Ad hominem, is that the best comeback you have?

 

Also as this game is looking for feedback, feedback is not all "OMFG DIZ IZ DA BESTEST GAME EVAR!" Feedback is something that says "X is good/bad and is good/bad because..." or "I think that X/Y/Z should be changed to be like this because...", which is pretty much what this thread is.

 

I have a friend that plays this game he does not go on the forums and I want to keep as many people away from the forums as i can because honeslty its nothing but people Listing wrongs with the game. There is not a single Co-op Multiplayer game that has complete balance that is perfect Warframe not the first to have problems and certainly not the last.

Err... it's not just balance that's the problem in WF, it's far, far more than that. Go and actually read some of the posts. Yes balance is mentioned, but it's far from the biggest issue.

 

You guys need to take in to consideration that they can solve every single issue and any given moment these are human beings not robots.

 

show consideration.

Where are you getting this? Nobody expects them to fix it by U12, but instead to start visibly making progress on it, and telling us what they're doing to fix the problems.

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

Akmagnus nerf was a typo. They put double damage by mistake and rectified it to the normal level. It's not a nerf, it's a bugfix.

 

I won't judge the value of a 20% damage reduction without testing it.

 

On the topic of nerfs, I follow Blatantfool there. Adding an enemy that can nullify MPrime is indeed a form of nerf, but one that can be worked around with a tiny little bit of skill, unlike a simple number nerf. MPrime is still as powerful, but you can't mindlessly spam it anymore, you have to hunt down and kill the dispel sucker before.

 

NINJEDIT:

 

 

Have you been here for a year and seen everything BUT what was promised happen? Have you seen all your legitimate complaints and suggestions ignored? Have you even cared for the future of this game and seen it became less and less optimistic every week? Have you even considered that because other games do it doesn't make it more acceptable?

They had months to solve those issues and haven't even begun fixing any of them.

 

so a video and the catchy phrase "double the power" is a typo?

 

interesting.

 

anyway the point is why they cant try the weapons BEFORE release.

 

tell about the typo to the guys who sacrificed a potatoed magnus to do the akmagnus, or the guys who bought it with platinum.

 

DE is a well stablished company, they have really good employees (i really believe this), with a lot of experience and knowledge, why such an amateur mistake happens over and over again?

 

we have the change of ammo in drakgoon last time, are they rushing content so bad that they cant check these stuff?

 

just wondering.

Edited January 30, 2014 by omega_phoenix

[LoGicMoTion]

Old Players will leave new players will come.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Old Players will leave new players will come.

Not with the way the current newbie experience they won't.

 

And lets pretend they do, the new players become old players, and they see the same problems, and slowly but surely WF dies off.

[Virtus_Dei_Est]

[LoGicMoTion]

Not with the way the current newbie experience they won't.

 

And lets pretend they do, the new players become old players, and they see the same problems, and slowly but surely WF dies off.

Your wrong this game will exceed and become great. As it already is, i dont expect the perfect game as all of you do but i expect one that is fun which this game has done 10x over and over.

But only in time we can tell.

 

Best Regards,

[Blatantfool]

 

 Truth.

[Kaian-a-coel]

So a video and the catchy phrase "double the power" is a typo?

 

Interesting.

 

Anyway the point is why cant they  try the weapons BEFORE release?

 

tell about the typo to the guys who sacrificed a potatoed magnus to do the akmagnus, or the guys who bought it with platinum.

 

DE is a well established company, they have really good employees (I really believe this), with a lot of experience and knowledge, why such an amateur mistake happens over and over again?

 

We had the change of ammo in drakgoon last time, are they rushing content so bad that they cant check this stuff?

 

Just wondering.

Stuff happens. Akmagnus DOES have double the magnus DPS. Because it fire twice as fast. With the typo it was four times the DPS of the single magnus.

A single weapon is a lot of lines of code, typos happens all the time, to everyone. In bold above, yours.

 

edited for typo: "th single magnus" instead of "the"

Edited January 30, 2014 by Kaian-a-coel

[matto]

I can't feel anything else but boredom and disinterest... 50 pages and 512 upvotes that led us nowhere.

 

Maybe we should let this thread down, wait for U12, and the next couple of livestreams.

 

I'll wait until the end of the first quarter (around early April), and see if those changes that were promised are going to be implemented.

Edited January 30, 2014 by matto

[se05239]

I can't feel anything else but boredom and disinterest... 50 pages and 512 upvotes that led us nowhere.

 

Maybe we should let this thread down, wait for U12, and the next couple of livestreams.

 

If we let this thread die out, then all those pages and upvotes has been for nothing.

[dashashou]

Bring the fun back 

[Critik]

Meanwhile you'll notice very few other frame relying on a status effect for their ultimate. The Frames getting effected would be Saryn and Nova. But then again - the obstacle here is an enemy. Something you can just kill. So paying a little attention and putting your gun to work is the quick fix. Which is a good thing, by the way, because a game is more challenging if the enemies you fight can counteract what you can do - it is also more fun if a little skill can let you win out over your counter.

 

It would also have interesting ramifications depending on what you qualify as a 'status effect'... and what they could remove them FROM. If they can debuff the player, for instance, that also makes them quite dangerous. They could remove Volt's speed, or Oberon's health regen, or Trinity's invulnerability, or Rhino's Iron Skin-- they could even be made to nullify the stasis effect of his ult, immediately bringing surviving enemies back into the fray.

 

...Perhaps an enemy like this should be suggested.

[Ishki88]

-DE releases new Ak weapon that are more than slightly high powered....

-DE "fixes" Ak weapon.  "Nerf"....disputable since OG damage was not attended.

-Zombies complain that the Ak weapon is now useless and weak.  Zombies want buff....

-DE buffs Ak weapon...making them worth the build

-Zombies complain Ak weapon is too strong and shouldn't rival other Ak weapons

-Where is my shotgun

[Shad0wb0x]

i read everything, and to be honest, i make those my words.

 

a BIG 1+ on this post.

[helix.hex]

 The mistake you're making is in bold.

 

 You'd be right to say that most players wont be mad about a well deserved nerf. But there are a great many who would be upset if DE tries to solve every problem that comes up by doing that sort of thing. There are more options when dealing with game balance then just buffing or nerfing existing items.

 

 For instance, Nova would be a good bit less dangerous if an enemy type existed capable of buffing its allies and preventing status effects.

 

 It is possible and is valuable to create balance by adding to what is there. You are not always stuck trying to buff or nerf things.

your right on all that but alot of people dont realize m. Prime is best to best used as a crowd controller not a nuke. most of the changes to nova havent changed much for me so the only ones who would be P'd might me spammers.