An Open Letter To De From Your Veterans (The megathread)

[buriburi]

I agree with Lynches. 

 

The only thing for, player who got all the weapons and warframes, is end game. I've personally done a 7h survival and 200 waves defense and it's basically just the same like in the first hour or wave 50. It's repetitve and boring if you did it once. 

 

If you have a good comp with a good strategy basically you are sitting out the time. Doing a 1000 Waves or more is just a matter of time not skill. 

 

I have rly high expectation for u12. I hope we are getting some changes..

[nightrunner_ks]

Kinda offtopic-ish, but how's that application to warbros going? 

@Fool

Well, no need to wonder, since we know exactly where that promise ended up, no?

 

Goddamnit Deicul, I'm gonna need screencaps of your post before Fool's edit.

[S5alad]

This letter is designed to express the opinions of a collection of max rank veterans.  We are the individuals who've been with Warframe from the start, the Tenno who've maxed every single weapon in the game to the reasonable limits of acquirement(Detron...).  It is my desire that DE will listen and take our concerns genuinely.  The purpose of this particular letter is to address communication.  While there are a great many problems I'd like to express my feelings on, all issues in this game, I feel, stem from general apathy with the majority consensus of the player base.

 

COMMUNICATION

 

In the early days of Warframe, DE pioneered this game by defying the status quo of other games in the revolutionary attitude of listening to its player base.  It was this rare approach towards game development that brought in hundreds of thousands of players.  This community was once a beautiful movement of feedback synchronized with developer response.  We would bring to DE the most valuable feedback of the game and DE acted on it.  Parkour was added to the game because of this, Control Modules developed a reasonable drop rate because of this, and the pay element of the game became a feasible system of dollar to platinum ratio that promised sustainable and ongoing sales for DE.  We developed two staple frames very well loved by the community, Vauban and Nova.  It continued still, with developers like Rebecca, Glen, and Megan interacting with the players on a weekly basis to investigate bugs and issues, to assess player feedback on a more intimate level with voice to voice interaction. 

 

That was then... this is now.

 

Now, players bring issues to the developers and they are ignored.  Now, when players help their fellow players out because of the vacuum left by DE on lore and game play information, DE responds by encrypting the information and patching the helpful programs out.  Now, when there is overwhelming consensus on the forums over issues, like the way DE handled the Cicero Crisis, DE acts autonomously of its player base, not even extending the courtesy of consistency or advanced warning.  Now, when players message the developers, we're lucky to get one reply, but never has there been a back and forth since U11.  Now, there is a fundamental departure from the disposition of the game staff towards its invested player base that is in absolute contrast from the friendly personality that made this game so appealing from it's conception through it's growth.  Now... Warframe may as well be operated by Bioware, remembering DE as a once beautiful entity that was in harmony with us in a magnificent game which we all loved.

 

Founders

 

It was with DE's explicit promise of being sensitive to Founder feedback and gameplay experience that we were lured into dropping hundreds of dollars into Founders Packs, providing the startup funds to bring Warframe from a small beta game to enabling it to hire on extra staff and jumping its funding into the 7 digit figures.  DE said being a Founder would make us part of the team.  DE led us to believe that Founders would be given a higher voice in the community, that we would rank above others when it came to feedback.  We were promised a chance to change the game with merit given to our stance by the value of our investment. 

 

While I do not have the figures to support this, I would say from anecdotal observation, Grand Masters are positively correlated with Rank 14+ Warframe Veterans, individuals with intimate knowledge of the game, of all the frames and weapons and lore of this Technocyte ridden galaxy.  So not only should Grand Masters have merit to their voices by investment, but also by vast knowledge of game play derived from 1000+ hours of time played.  One might feel impressed by such a powerful collective force of knowledge, fandom, and enthusiasm towards the game, so impressed that when the majority of us share the same opinion, that the developers would listen.  Unfortunately, no.  Instead, founders are limited to polls, with a founder exclusive forum, and no differentiation between an uninvested f2p player and a Grand Master $500 or more invested into the game. 

 

If DE won't listen to us, of all Tenno, THEN WHO WILL THEY LISTEN TO?

 

It is with my utmost sincerity that I request of you DE, that I beg of you, to bring your efforts in adherence with the players you serve.

 

With Warm Regards,

 

Swaggermeistress

Edited January 12, 2014 by Swaggermeistress

[UmamiSalami]

This letter is designed to express the opinions of a collection of max rank veterans.  We are the individuals who've been with Warframe from the start, the Tenno who've maxed every single weapon in the game to the reasonable limits of acquirement(Detron...).  It is my desire that DE will listen and take our concerns genuinely.  The purpose of this particular letter is to address communication.  While there are a great many problems I'd like to express my feelings on, all issues in this game, I feel, stem from general apathy with the majority consensus of the player base.

 

COMMUNICATION

 

In the early days of Warframe, DE pioneered this game by defying the status quo of other games in the revolutionary attitude of listening to its player base.  It was this rare approach towards game development that brought in hundreds of thousands of players.  This community was once a beautiful movement of feedback synchronized with developer response.  We would bring to DE the most valuable feedback of the game and DE acted on it.  Parkour was added to the game because of this, Control Modules developed a reasonable drop rate because of this, and the pay element of the game became a feasible system of dollar to platinum ratio that promised sustainable and ongoing sales for DE.  We developed two staple frames very well loved by the community, Vauban and Nova.  It continued still, with developers like Rebecca, Glen, and Megan interacting with the players on a weekly basis to investigate bugs and issues, to assess player feedback on a more intimate level with voice to voice interaction. 

 

That was then... this is now.

 

Now, players bring issues to the developers and they are ignored.  Now, when players help their fellow players out because of the vacuum left by DE on lore and game play information, DE responds by encrypting the information and patching the helpful programs out.  Now, when there is overwhelming consensus on the forums over issues, like the way DE handled the Cicero Crisis, DE acts autonomously of its player base, not even extending the courtesy of consistency or advanced warning.  Now, when players message the developers, we're lucky to get one reply, but never has there been a back and forth since U11.  Now, there is a fundamental departure from the disposition of the game staff towards its invested player base that is in absolute contrast from the friendly personality that made this game so appealing from it's conception through it's growth.  Now... Warframe may as well be operated by Bioware, remembering DE as a once beautiful entity that was in harmony with us in a magnificent game which we all loved.

 

Founders

 

It was with DE's explicit promise of being sensitive to Founder feedback and gameplay experience that we were lured into dropped hundred of dollars into Founders Packs, providing the startup funds to bring Warframe from a small beta game to enabling it to hire on extra staff and jumping its funding into the 7 digit figures.  DE said being a Founder would make us part of the team.  DE led us to believe that Founders would be given a higher voice in the community, that we would rank above others when it came to feedback.  We were promised a chance to change the game with merit given to our stance by the value of our investment. 

 

While I do not have the figures to support this, I would say from anecdotal observation, Grand Masters are positively correlated with Rank 14+ Warframe Veterans, individuals with intimate knowledge of the game, of all the frames and weapons and lore of this Technocyte ridden galaxy.  So not only should Grand Masters have merit to their voices by investment, but also by vast knowledge of game play derived from 1000+ hours of time played.  One might feel impressed by such a powerful collective force of knowledge, fandom, and enthusiasm towards the game, so impressed that when the majority of us share the same opinion, that the developers would listen.  Unfortunately, no.  Instead, founders are limited to polls, with a founder exclusive forum, and no differentiation between an uninvested f2p player and a Grand Master $500 or more invested into the game. 

 

If DE won't listen to us, of all Tenno, THEN WHO WILL THEY LISTEN TO?

 

It is with my utmost sincerity that I request of you DE, that I beg of you, to bring your efforts in adherence with the players you serve.

 

With Warm Regards,

 

Swaggermeistress

Agreed. Right now I don't feel like I was able to give much of an opinion on things. They could give us a section on the Design Council forums where we can throw out ideas to them. It could also be used to repost ideas from the fan concept section that we think could be potential future content. But I understand this could be abused by not giving credit to the original creator and they could have no means of knowing.

[Tr1ples1xer]

-snip-

 

With Warm Regards,

 

Swaggermeistress

Wow powerfull stuff, so very well said, almost a tear to my eye :D

 

I feel the same, rank 14 I feel pretty invested in WF, never spent that much on a single game before... don't let this game fail DE, listen to your fans !!

 

 

__________________________

BRING BACK INFESTED 2014

#savexini

[--collstro--]

Sadly a forum moderator decided to delete an open letter thread from another veteran. I found nothing in her statement that would warrant deletion. Here's her post in its entirety, see if you agree.

 

-snip-

[Silvershadow66]

 

Mastery Rank

 

Now, based on the reskinned updates that are being pushed out (3 new weapons, 1 Warframe, new boss, and new tiles, then 2 or 3 Tenno reinforcements through the updates) it will take DE approximately 3 to 4 years based on their business/model plan to push enough Mastery rank effected gear to reach Mastery 30. This is ridiculous.

 

Why is it ridiculous? Other than the number of extractors Rank really only gives you a more important title once you get past 10 (and the title is only cosmetic). The fact that you can only get to 15 at the moment is fine (think of it as in other games where the level cap is raised as time goes on). At the moment 15 is the "level cap".

 

 

End-Game

 

This is my biggest worry. They don't seem to care about the Veteran base. They should have known Endless Survival/Defense for End-game was a horrible idea. That's not challenging, its a endurance test. It's not hard to get 4 hours in Survival or wave 200 in Defense, it's merely time consuming. That is a pathetic End-game model.

 

Why should they care more about veterans than new players?

 

And more importantly why should Warframe even have a traditional end-game? Warframe is about collecting more and more shinies that can pretty much all be used in all missions. Raids are a poor idea for any game, it never works out well because only a minority really enjoy them and the hardcore raiders can never be satisfied by the rate that content is released.

[Letter13]

Sadly a forum moderator decided to delete an open letter thread from another veteran. I found nothing in her statement that would warrant deletion. Here's her post in its entirety, see if you agree.

 

-snip-

It wasn't deleted. It was merged into the #2 thread. I also advised Lynches and Swagger to talk about having Swagger's post edited in to bring it front and center as part of Lynches's post.

It's still viewable Here.

That being said, if you have a complaint with moderators' actions, you're more than welcome to make an inquiry/report using the report tool on the forums or a support ticket.

Now why was it done? To prevent GD from becoming a cluttered "Letter to DE from Veterans ###" hell.

[bejuizb]

This was in response to Swagger's post, which was integrated into Lynches's post.

 

Pretty well put out. I'm not a veteran (as I've stated before) nor am I a founder, but I understand the passion all players have for this game. I joined this game in May of last year and fell in love with it for the same reasons you mentioned. I tried my very best to get friends and family involved in this game to ensure that the game grows and everyone with a computer gets to enjoy it. 

 

I still believe that the developers care for their playerbase, I really honestly do believe that. But there's always some form of hesitation to listen to or even acknowledge the community's feedback. Founders might very well be the minority in the game, but they are a major reason for this game's success and that fact alone means that they should be acknowledged alongside regular players.

 

We all wish to see this game flourish, and become the greatest F2P game ever made, and it all starts with slowing things down, and looking back to our roots. The community has matured, and has grown substantially, and along with that, so have the responsibilities of the developers. 

 

I simply ask that they look past all the pressure put on them by the playerbase, and take things step by step, prioritizing on dealing with long withstanding game mechanics (which are being worked on at the moment, and I'm glad for that) instead of trying to add to a broken foundation.

 

A simple image would be Jenga blocks. You won't be able to win, if you don't place your foundation blocks correctly.

 

My 2 cents.

[--collstro--]

It wasn't deleted. It was merged into the #2 thread. I also advised Lynches and Swagger to talk about having Swagger's post edited in to bring it front and center.

It's still viewable Here.

 

How often do you merge threads from two different people into a single thread? Because I've never seen it happen before. Each veteran who posts a letter has a different opinion and should be able to start a 'discussion' with the people who post on each of their individual threads.

[Blatantfool]

Why should they care more about veterans than new players?

 

And more importantly why should Warframe even have a traditional end-game? Warframe is about collecting more and more shinies that can pretty much all be used in all missions. Raids are a poor idea for any game, it never works out well because only a minority really enjoy them and the hardcore raiders can never be satisfied by the rate that content is released.

 

 They should care equally about both.

 

 But this thread topic is more about Vets then Newbies. Trust me - these people you're talking to here? These people know how rough the new blood has it. It needs fixing too.

 

 There is a ton of talk about that on the forums, often enough a new thread each day. A lot of times the older players share their opinions at DE on what is important to teach early on.

 

 So right now this thread is a talk about the older players and the desire for endgame.

[Silvershadow66]

It seems that you guys, didn't watched last livestream... DE dont give a cr*p about everything that community asks...

 

All they do, is creating goats =/

 

What is funny is that the goats show that they do listen, people have been asking for more wildlife for a while.

[Letter13]

How often do you merge threads from two different people into a single thread? Because I've never seen it happen before. Each veteran who posts a letter has a different opinion and should be able to start a 'discussion' with the people who post on each of their individual threads.

We do it when the titles are more or less the same and the threads have similar sentiments. We also notify both parties when it occurs.

[S5alad]

We do it when the titles are more or less the same and the threads have similar sentiments. We also notify both parties when it occurs.

You are abusing your moderator privileges and should not be a Community Moderator.  I posted a well written legitimate opinion on developer-player communication to spawn an ongoing discussion on exactly that.  Instead, you deleted it and merged it in another thread so that it would be bogged down and lost in the pages, when it was written to deliver its own autonomous conversation.

 

You should not be a moderator.

[Blatantfool]

How often do you merge threads from two different people into a single thread? Because I've never seen it happen before. Each veteran who posts a letter has a different opinion and should be able to start a 'discussion' with the people who post on each of their individual threads.

 

 Merging is typically really stealthy because when we do it right it doesn't even look very much like we've done it. We've left your thread and Lynches separate at this point for the reason you stated - the feedback isn't the same just the title - but there really needs to be a limit to how many of these threads this line of thought splits into. Part of the Mod's job is keeping things tidy.

 

 And by 'tidy' I don't mean 'looking nice' as much as I mean 'Get things set up in an easy to read fashion'.

 

 It is better for DE when lots of valuable feedback is contained in very few threads instead of many. Makes for less tab hopping and conversations tend to reach maturity better - like your thread here for instance.

[Silvershadow66]

 They should care equally about both.

 

 But this thread topic is more about Vets then Newbies. Trust me - these people you're talking to here? These people know how rough the new blood has it. It needs fixing too.

 

 There is a ton of talk about that on the forums, often enough a new thread each day. A lot of times the older players share their opinions at DE on what is important to teach early on.

 

 So right now this thread is a talk about the older players and the desire for endgame.

 

Precisely, there is no reason for Vets to get preferential treatment when it comes to design priorities. The work should be put into making things better for the new players, if that does not get more attention then fewer new players will become vets.

 

As I have been here 6 months now and put in over 300 hours I consider myself a vet and I don't agree with the statements being made.

[DeltaF0rce]

Straight to the point OP, good job.

[Letter13]

so that it would be bogged down and lost in the pages

I did send both you and Lynches a private message saying you two should discuss having your points brought to the front of the page so that everyone who goes into the thread would be able to read it.

If I wanted it to get bogged down and lost in the pages (which I don't) I would not have sent both of you a private message to get your points at the front of the thread.

[buriburi]

[...] the threads have similar sentiments.[...]

 

They clearly didn't have "similar sentiments"

 

Lynches talks about end game, mastery and lore. Swaggermeistress talked about Communication and Founders.

 

Basically you merged 2 threads without a good or any reason.

Edited January 12, 2014 by buriburi

[S5alad]

 Merging is typically really stealthy because when we do it right it doesn't even look very much like we've done it. We've left your thread and Lynches separate at this point for the reason you stated - the feedback isn't the same just the title -

My thread had content that was entirely unrelated to Lynches and Collstro's thread and it was deleted and merged into another thread where the significance and effort of it will be lost.

 

I protest and feel I deserve to have my writing contained in its own thread, as intended, not lost into Lynches' thread.

 

If you want to discuss this over PM then maybe you should PM us instead of aggravating the issue further on a public forum.  Follow your own guidelines.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Swaggermeistress

[--collstro--]

We do it when the titles are more or less the same and the threads have similar sentiments. We also notify both parties when it occurs.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't see much similarity other than we're all veteran players expressing our concerns. The subjects we each focus on are different and if there are any similarities then it's because we all feel the same way about a particular issue. If what you said was true, and you merge all similar threads, then there would be only 1 thread on the forums about the Detron/Harvester Spawn/Drop rates, instead of the dozen or more that are currently there.

 

I'm sorry if you don't like what we have to say, but we have a right to express our individual views, individually. None of our threads have contained profanity or anything that could remotely be considered hostile toward DE or any member of the community.

 

I would greatly appreciate it if you would let each of us express our views individually.

 

 

Sincerely,

collstro

[Blatantfool]

My thread had content that was entirely unrelated to Lynches and Collstro's thread and it was deleted and merged into another thread where the significance and effort of it will be lost.

 

I protest and feel I deserve to have my writing contained in its own thread, as intended, not lost into Lynches' thread.

 

 Your content isn't lost. It is in plain sight. People are event replying in kind to your post. You don't have to be the OP of a thread to make a damn good point in one.

 

 Also, Figures Letter got a response in before me. Post I made is gone because what HE said makes what I said redundant. But seriously, PM's Swagger.  All you've gotta do to dispute what you don't like is elevate it to the Lady Lotus. 

[DarkenedThimble]

This is kind of starting to remind me of how The WarZ Handled their "player feedback". 

[S5alad]

 Your content isn't lost. It is in plain sight. People are event replying in kind to your post. You don't have to be the OP of a thread to make a damn good point in one.

 

 Also, Figures Letter got a response in before me. Post is gone because what HE said makes what I said redundant. But seriously, PM's Swagger. 

Please allow my post its own thread as it was written with the intention to be.  I don't care what the post title is, but claiming that the content is redundant is aggravating and in contrast with any reasonable opinion after having read both threads then mine.

[Vandoore]

hmm but how far through a thread will DE read?

Or if they've already read the first 5 pages will they read the other five when you've merged the two threads?

 

While having multiples of threads just fill up the board it shows that there is more then half a dozen people interested and concerned in a particular problem. Does that not warrant the thread its own place on the board?