Detron Is Not Op, Please Don't Nerf.

[Garuger]

I'm glad that you asked that, actually the Detron spread is so wide, that its damage in long range is insignificant, even without damage fall off. The Brakk has a damage penality but at least it can land shots. Either way, people forget these category of weapons are supposed to be used at very close range, 20m for the Brakk (50% damage reduction) and 30m for the Detron (will miss 50% of the pellets)

I can verify that i made a vid about Detron and indeed has quite the spread. If you want to see vid https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/167591-detron-gameplay-vid/

Edited January 24, 2014 by Garuger

[DiabolusUrsus]

I don't think you can say they deal insane damage, but suffer form terrible ammo economy and be Op. That seems more than a reasonable tradeoff. 

Nor can you really say the Akbolto is hindered by its need to land consistent shots over travel time makes it balanced, and that the same effect along with spread making it even more difficult to deal consistent and decent damage doesn't make the Detron balanced, which does less damage per second. 

They've introduced two Projectile Shotguns now, it seems that this is a new precedent they are setting. Travel time or fall off. 

 

I count terrible ammo economy as something with very little weight as a negative counterbalance because it is so easy to circumvent. Ammo Mutation. Craftable Ammo Restores. Scavenger Auras (not that anyone uses those once they have something better.) As such, I don't think bad ammo economy is enough to qualify a weapon as "not OP."

Fair point with the new Shotgun trend. I had forgotten that the Drakgoon had travel-time pellets. Still, this makes me sad. When the Brakk was nerfed, I was dismayed to see the addition of damage falloff and increased spread. I had seen the damage nerf coming pretty much since the weapon was released, but I was expecting a "hand-cannon" to be something akin to a more solid version of guns like the Lex. I would much rather have seen the Brakk do less damage but do it over decent ranges and with a fair degree of accuracy. Still, the most prevalent counter argument was "it's a shotgun, it should have falloff."

If the reasoning behind my vision of a "hand-cannon" with pellets being unacceptable was that such a weapon would be inconsistent with its precedents, then it is indeed vexing to have the exact same argument used in support of a sibling weapon not receiving damage falloff. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my last post, but I'm not saying "nerf the Detron." I'm saying "make it consistent." That may involve giving it falloff, decreasing its spread and increasing it's damage, but make it consistent with how other weapons of the same type function. Still, if this is the advent of a new weapon type, that's fine. Self-interested hypocrisy, especially when it concerns "balance," is something that will never fail to incense me.

Edited January 25, 2014 by DiabolusUrsus

[Garuger]

I count terrible ammo economy as something with very little weight as a negative counterbalance because it is so easy to circumvent. Ammo Mutation. Craftable Ammo Restores. Scavenger Auras (not that anyone uses those once they have something better.) As such, I don't think bad ammo economy is enough to qualify a weapon as "not OP."

Fair point with the new Shotgun trend. I had forgotten that the Drakgoon had travel-time pellets. Still, this makes me sad. When the Brakk was nerfed, I was dismayed to see the addition of damage falloff and increased spread. I had seen the damage nerf coming pretty much since the weapon was released, but I was expecting a "hand-cannon" to be something akin to a more solid version of guns like the Lex. I would much rather have seen the Brakk do less damage but do it over decent ranges and with a fair degree of accuracy. Still, the most prevalent counter argument was "it's a shotgun, it should have falloff."

If the reasoning behind my vision of a "hand-cannon" with pellets being unacceptable was that such a weapon would be inconsistent with its precedents, then it is indeed vexing to have the exact same argument used in support of a sibling weapon not receiving damage falloff. Maybe I wasn't clear enough with my last post, but I'm not saying "nerf the Detron." I'm saying "make it consistent." That may involve giving it falloff, decreasing its spread and increasing it's damage, but make it consistent with how other weapons of the same type function. Still, if this is the advent of a new weapon type, that's fine. Self-interested hypocrisy, especially when it concerns "balance," is something that will never fail to incense me.

As i said Detron fires laser rounds . Laser = light you cant bend light expect you have a black hole or something.Besides Detron spread is so huge that would be the same if it had fall of . Detron it is balanced on its own way

Edited January 25, 2014 by Garuger

[.Talia.]

I agree that a hand cannon should behave like a .44 Magnum because that's what a hand cannon is in real life, the Brakk and the Detron are hand shotguns. But then again, if thats the vision the developers have for this category of weapons, so be it, besides, i think its too late to completely change the way they shoot.

[Makya]

I agree that a hand cannon should behave like a .44 Magnum because that's what a hand cannon is in real life

Isn't that the Lex/Seer?

[DiabolusUrsus]

As i said Detron fires laser rounds . Laser = light you cant bend light expect you have a black hole or something.Besides Detron spread is so huge that would be the same if it had fall of . Detron it is balanced on its own way

 

Why you think using a physics-based argument to advocate changes to a fictional game holds much weight is beyond me. Even if you want to go into absolute specifics, lasers with weaponizable energy output still diffuse. They have a definite range, which is usually surpisingly short. Following that same train of attempted logic, every single weapon in the game should have damage falloff at different ranges. (I happen to think that would be a decent idea, actually, as it would open up the possibility of range mods.) The point being that "realistic" weapon function was never something I had any intention of discussing.

 

For the last time, my concern was never "is the Detron balanced?" It was "is the Detron consistent with what were supposedly rigid expectations regarding basic weapon function?" The answer to that question is "no, it is not consistent." Thus, my suggestions were aimed at making the Detron consistent, while maintaining the same power levels. Not an overall nerf, just a change of function.

[.Talia.]

Isn't that the Lex/Seer?

Yes.

But what bothers me is the word "hand-cannon" on the description of both the Brakk and the Detron, they are hand-shotguns.

Edited January 25, 2014 by RexSol

[Makya]

Yes, but is on the des

Yes.

But what bothers me is the word "hand-cannon" on the description of both the Brakk and the Detron, they are hand-shotguns.

Pistol shotguns used to be called hand cannons, they also highly risked bowing your own hand off but that's beside the point. (They were literally cannons held in the hand and filled with anything you had, for anti people you normally used carpenter nails as ammo because.. screw aiming, you hip fired at best)

[.Talia.]

[sarcasm]

 

Following that same train of attempted logic, every single weapon in the game should have damage falloff at different ranges. (I happen to think that would be a decent idea, actually, as it would open up the possibility of range mods.) 

 

For the last time, my concern was never "is the Detron balanced?" It was "is the Detron consistent with what were supposedly rigid expectations regarding basic weapon function?" The answer to that question is "no, it is not consistent." Thus, my suggestions were aimed at making the Detron consistent, while maintaining the same power levels. Not an overall nerf, just a change of function.

 

I'm just going to quote the (ironically) last post on the "NERF DETRON PLZ zOMGWTF!!1!" topic that was closed by the DE..

 

i demand that all weapons be nerfed into oblivion....reduce their damage so much that you'd be better off throwing them at the enemy instead of shooting them with it

 

[/sarcasm]

Edited January 25, 2014 by RexSol

[Monolake]

For how hard it is to get Detron is not good enough. I would buff it ~15%

[Makya]

For the last time, my concern was never "is the Detron balanced?" It was "is the Detron consistent with what were supposedly rigid expectations regarding basic weapon function?" The answer to that question is "no, it is not consistent." Thus, my suggestions were aimed at making the Detron consistent, while maintaining the same power levels. Not an overall nerf, just a change of function.

That rigid expectation is for hitscan shotguns, notice that the Drakgoon and the Detron both don't have falloff?

[Definitegj]

Counting the 50% brakk fall off, doesn't the Brakk at long range do the same DPS as a Detron? So.. the Brakk at its worse is a Detron at its best is a god?

 

 

I'm glad that you asked that, actually the Detron spread is so wide, that its damage in long range is insignificant, even without damage fall off. The Brakk has a damage penality but at least it can land shots. Either way, people forget these category of weapons are supposed to be used at very close range, 20m for the Brakk (50% damage reduction) and 30m for the Detron (will miss 50% of the pellets)

 

I see there is some misconception about shotgun falloff.

The effects is way above 50% reduction.

 

Just went and tested Brakk falloff again, it seems that DE had changed the falloff to [15,30]

 

Anyway, just lets say if Brakk falloff is [15,30], it means that from 0-15m, you can do 100% of the shotgun damage. From 16-30, the damage will drop in proportion of the distance from target until 30m where you will do the minimal damage.

 

From 30m onwards, you will only be doing 25% of original unmodded base damage as minimal damage. In brakk case, you will be doing 4 dmg/pellet to corpus shield. This damage can't be modified by any base damage mods but can be modified by elemental mods.

 

Brakk crit 2.0x with

Hornet 180%

190% Blast (100 cold + 90 fire)

 

Close range dmg  129            http://imgur.com/IqA6ZY3

Long range >30m  dmg 12     http://imgur.com/qrUlEa1

 

Brakk with Hornet 180% only

Close range dmg 49           http://imgur.com/RZND2Rt

Long range >30m dmg 4    http://imgur.com/zLMzCzk

 

Brakk unmodded

Close range dmg 17          http://imgur.com/gNQ8fEf

Long range >30m dmg 4   http://imgur.com/Fb0BkFt

 

Brakk with 190% Blast

Long range >30 dmg 12        Didn't record/screenshot that.

 

 

Btw when using Brakk during testing, most of the times out of 10 pellets, only 1 pellet will hit the enemy at 30m range, the most i saw is 2 pellets. Total miss occur quite frequently. Though, this is without multishot mods equipped.

Edited January 25, 2014 by Definitegj

[laubauflo]

Isn't that the Lex/Seer?

YEAH, NERF LEX

[Garuger]

Why you think using a physics-based argument to advocate changes to a fictional game holds much weight is beyond me. Even if you want to go into absolute specifics, lasers with weaponizable energy output still diffuse. They have a definite range, which is usually surpisingly short. Following that same train of attempted logic, every single weapon in the game should have damage falloff at different ranges. (I happen to think that would be a decent idea, actually, as it would open up the possibility of range mods.) The point being that "realistic" weapon function was never something I had any intention of discussing.

 

For the last time, my concern was never "is the Detron balanced?" It was "is the Detron consistent with what were supposedly rigid expectations regarding basic weapon function?" The answer to that question is "no, it is not consistent." Thus, my suggestions were aimed at making the Detron consistent, while maintaining the same power levels. Not an overall nerf, just a change of function.

I cant understand you 0_o

[Monolake]

Nerf *insert any gun name* plz, since it does infinite more damage than my Synapse at 20+ m range.

Same logic, isnt it?

Edited January 25, 2014 by Monolake

[DiabolusUrsus]

[sarcasm] I'm just going to quote the (ironically) last post on the "NERF DETRON PLZ zOMGWTF!!1!" topic that was closed by the DE.. [/sarcasm]

 

I'm still trying to understand your use of sarcasm here, but I hope you understand that I am not, and have not been calling for a nerf to the Detron.

 

That rigid expectation is for hitscan shotguns, notice that the Drakgoon and the Detron both don't have falloff?

 

Actually, at the time that rigid expectation was conceived, (by the people setting those expectations,) it applied to all weapons with multiple pellets fired, because non-hitscan shotguns did not yet exist. RexSol introduced the same point earlier, and if you refer back to it you can see that I actually agree on that point. I had forgotten that the Drakgoon was not hitscan, and presenting the Detron and Drakgoon as parts of a distinct category of shotgun weapons makes their lack of falloff acceptable. My original (and only) concern with the Detron was maintaining consistency, which I have since abandoned subsequent to being presented with a plausible counterargument that wasn't just "no, it's balanced." (Balance is irrelevant to the mechanics changes I was suggesting.)

I communicated it poorly in my first post, but I am completely witholding judgment on Detron balance in general. I did, however want to bring up the point that the OP's primary support for the claim that the Detron is not overpowered was a DPS comparison to other secondary weapons. The existence of other, more overpowered weapons does not mean that a given weapon is not overpowered. Secondary weapons in general are in a rather questionable state of balance, and in my opinion, require a comprehensive look. The results of that look may include nerfs to most secondary weapons.

 

I cant understand you 0_o

 

At least you're being sincere. Let me try to simplify it a bit for you.

Detron: Overpowered? Underpowered? Balanced? - I don't care.

Detron: Consistent with other shotgun-type weapons? - I no longer care.

Lastly, realism-based arguments carry very little weight in a science-fiction styled fantasy video game, especially when your realism based arguments are ultimately wrong. Lasers do not have infinite range. Lasers also don't travel any slower than the speed of light, so if you want to get realistic, the Dera/Supra/Tetra/Detron should all be hitscan weapons.

Therefore, "laser = no damage falloff" is a weak argument. That is all.

[.Talia.]

Ok quick update, finally my Detron is fully modded with 5 formas. Now i can give my final opinion on this weapon. 

 

I've done high wave defenses vs the three factions to check out how the Detron behaves on those crazy high levels.

 

I have been using Blast Radiation Corrosive mostly, because it seems a more well rounded, all around build.

 

 

But sometimes on those long defenses you know the enemies have so much HP that you're better off using Viral than any other elemental, Viral proc just too stronk.

 

At higher levels we're dealing basically with an anti-grineer heavies weapon, with Radiation + Corrosive or Radiation + Viral, and that's about it, vs other factions it can be good if you use the right elemental build (Like Magnetic + Pure Toxin for Corpus) but the Radiation is always there and receive a -25% vs Corpus Shields, -50% vs all Infested, and -75% vs Ancients.

 

This weapon is very hyped right now because of the Harvester, but honestly, its not that great. Its good, but not great. Its kinda silly when i see people crying for a Nerf. If anything, it needs a buff. Considering the work you have to go through to get one of these.

 

I got mine pre-U.11.8.2 when it was nearly impossible to get it, so i must say i'm a little disappointed. Now with the number of people crying for its damage fall-off (mostly Brakk owners) i'm afraid this weapon will become forgotten in my Arsenal.

 

You Brakk owners have nothing to worry about the Detron, its not even close to the Brakk.

 

Mogamu is right watch his video about it:

 

Edited January 26, 2014 by RexSol

[SALE94]

Detron is grineer killer simple as that, it does his task perfectly if you mod it right.

 

You can make it great for infected (large spread helps even more) with adding heat, and corrosive and seeker, peew pew pew boom bzz.

Edited January 26, 2014 by SALE94

[Keltik0ne]

Besides it is a laser shotgun.Laser cant have drop off since it is light .

You really shouldn't bring real life science into this game, especially if you get it this wrong :P

Laser energy is pretty easilly absorbed by the medium it travels through, it only has theoretical 100% energy transfer point to point in a vacuum.

Conversly, I can hit a 5 inch steel target at 300 yards with a shotgun (slug load) and look how they fall off in warframe :P

 

Back to point, Detron isn't really overpowered, it seems pretty average right now.

[luanle21]

proc and base dmg need a buff imo

OR!!!!!

proc increase, and 30% tighter spread then it is now

[bobafetthotmail]

Congrats to thread starter. Sensible points, reasoning and math.

 

Detron is not OP, DE don't nerf plz.

 

Besides it is a laser shotgun.Laser cant have drop off since it is light .

No to both.

 

Travel time = not a laser.

 

Light does indeed drop off with distance pretty damn sharply.

Lasers use focusing optics to sidestep that but still drop off to "cat amusement devices" once the shot is outside the range at which the optic system can focus the light in a tight enough spot.

 

 

 

Laser energy is pretty easilly absorbed by the medium it travels through, it only has theoretical 100% energy transfer point to point in a vacuum.

Ummm... I always thought air was transparent to light and low density enough. Energy dissipation due to air and normal dust in it isn't a major concern.

 

Now, if you start throwing up smoke or fog or whatever.... then it's a major issue.

Edited January 27, 2014 by bobafetthotmail