Another Developer Falls In The Trap Of Reputation

[Phantasmo]

So a Reputation system is coming to Warframe:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/170705-january-31st-community-hot-topics/?p=2000917#entry2000917

 

I've seen rep systems in both forums and games.

It never ever helped anybody but trolls. It's just another tool in their hands.

 

It won't bring anything but complaints from innocent players.

 

And It will not finish with AFK players because it doesn't address the real problems:

 

* Invasions need five runs. Doing the same mission five times is boring, even more when you think there's no variation at all, it's always Extermination.

 

* Furthermore, you need to rush them and do all five missions in a row in case the mission suddenly ends and you get left without reward.  You can't just say, "why, I'll do a run now and the rest later". You do that and you won't get that reactor.

 

* The real problem is not people going AFK, but not being able to open one fo those bloody dual lock doors because your mates left. These doors are an annoyance, but it seems you'd rather punish bored players than change the doors.

 

* Besides, Extermination games are very easy, meaning both a) players know the team can do fine without you so you can leave and b) doing five times the same very easy mission is even more boring.

 

*  What puzzles me the most, AFK people who did nothing and has spent the whole game idle, currently can and will get the reward. It's this what you should fix, and programmers have plenty of resources to know who was AFK and who wasn't. It is so obvious that only people who actually played the mission should get the reward. I can't believe you took the "punish players" way rather than the "let's fix mistakes" way.

 

* Did you already think how will you avoid players picking weak warframes with no extra HP or shields, and then killing themselves jumping into the fire? Just run far enough for your mates to come and rescue you before killing yourself with a Penta and there you are. And that would not be an AFK player...

 

* What about players who needed to leave the game because: pet jumped over the keyboard / family or friend had an accident / phone rang. Do they deserve to be punished?

 

* Same old story: since all these invasions are not being wrapped in any kind of story, they feel like the same, everyday grinding.  No new lore, no news, no dynamic universe, your same and sole answer for everything: more grinding.

 

 

I have a few ideas. I don't think they are really good ideas but I just didn't want to post this message without trying to help:

 

* Stop the five runs thing. Just one should be enough.

* "Just one run will feel  like an ordinary mission" -> not if you add some lore.

* Don't have time to create lore? Ask the community! Organize an invasion background contest.

* If for any reason you need to have players play the mission several times, then mix them missions. For example, have the squad play a random mission (Extermination, Survival, etc), then surviving players play a second mission, then a third.

Much more fun and challenging.

* Rather than a % completion, have invasions last for a fixed amount of time. A few days, so everybody gets a chance to play. The actual system doesn't make players think "oh, I'll try to play more often" but "damn, bloody RNG game".

* There will always be a smart &#! AFK player. Have AFK players receive no reward. Talk to your coders, they do know who was AFK and who wasn't.

 

Thanks for reading.

[KTribute]

You should expect people to leech for requiring running the same tilesets over and over and over and over with no variety.

 

What needs to be fixed is gameplay, and the affinity system, then the leechers will leave.

[direcyphre]

We've known a reputation system was coming for a long time. What we also know is that it will contain a +1, but not a -1. You would do well to watch the livestreams to know of these things months ago. It also sounds like most of your gripes have nothing to do with this proposition that is not yet fleshed out or released in game.

[Phantasmo]

We've known a reputation system was coming for a long time. What we also know is that it will contain a +1, but not a -1.

 

That makes no difference at all.

I wrote this today, so what?

I don't live in Warframe, I can't watch, read and listen all they publish. Glad you can.

[Lady_Khaos]

That makes no difference at all.

I wrote this today, so what?

I don't live in Warframe, I can't watch, read and listen all they publish. Glad you can.

Then quit yer whining instead of speaking out of ignorance. While you have plenty of valid points, they really have nothing to do with the rep system. Edited February 2, 2014 by Letter13
language

[Phantasmo]

Then quit yer whining instead of speaking out of ignorance. While you have plenty of valid points, they really have nothing to do with the rep system.

 

The rep system is a consequence of the bad design. I'm trying to explain why it won't work, why it is unfair, and what issues should DE address instead of creating an unfair system.

[Ritchel]

i just finished 5 operations while afking, while i do my homework. warframe is homework friendly. lol

[HellEnforcer]

 Pretty much what you are saying that you don't like running the mission five times but rather get all in one pass with no effort.

 

 

* Did you already think how will you avoid players picking weak warframes with no extra HP or shields, and then killing themselves jumping into the fire? Just run far enough for your mates to come and rescue you before killing yourself with a Penta and there you are. And that would not be an AFK player...

 

* What about players who needed to leave the game because: pet jumped over the keyboard / family or friend had an accident / phone rang. Do they deserve to be punished?

 

 The first one is player's fault. If they pick something weak and separate from the team; well, bad for them. They should learn to play as a team.

 Regarding the second point. Accidents do happen, but not all the time, and you could always clarify when one does happen to happen, which I would expect it to be quite rare. Even if you can't clarify, the reputation system should be made precisely with that in mind, you got a few bad points, but a lot of good ones... Unless you are one of those players that are problematic

 

 I do agree on that making the mission mixed with other things other than extermination to make them more fun and interesting, but most of the other things you say are barely related to the reputation system...

 

 I completely disagree with your post other than making the missions varied and adding lore

[Kaidinah]

Your title does not feel like it matches your post, but I wholeheartedly agree with the content of your post.

[(PSN)Stinja]

* Same old story: since all these invasions are not being wrapped in any kind of story, they feel like the same, everyday grinding. No new lore, no news, no dynamic universe, your same and sole answer for everything: more grinding.

* Stop the five runs thing. Just one should be enough.

* "Just one run will feel like an ordinary mission" -> not if you add some lore.

* If for any reason you need to have players play the mission several times, then mix them missions. For example, have the squad play a random mission (Extermination, Survival, etc), then surviving players play a second mission, then a third.

Much more fun and challenging.

Lets assume DE doesent have more resources to make lore and content, so reworking invasions within the current system:

- why not allow staggered missions to count as more than one extermination mission?

ie: instead of 5x exterm, how about a single Defence mission to wave 25 = 5x exterm. Ditto a 25min survival.

Or one Defence to wave 15, and a 10min survival = 5x exterm.

But TBH i do agree invasions feel like a grind. Why not try some ideas like (again within current-ish mission structure):

"Assault Invasion", where each invasion is a series of linked missions. Lobby starts with players A B C and D. Spy mission to simulate disable / hiding invasion start. Once console is hacked, it goes into a short exterminate (simulating cleaning up defenders strays). Then straight into a short Defence, simulating the defenders counter attacking.

Then players A B C and D have completed that invasion (not needed 5 times).

Or rewards based on completion level? So loot tables for invasions, eg teir 1 = commons and credits , teir 3 has resources and very rarely added a chance of potatoes etc much like current invasions RNG rewards.

And make the Exterminates progressive. Wave 1 has 100 enemies at level 10 then Finish <-> Continue, with finish being a roll on the Tier 1 loot table, next wave has 100 enemies at level 20, a roll on T2, and so on, up to say wave 5 with 500 enemies at level 50, and a roll on the t3 table.

Make people work for a chance at the good stuff.

[Inquisitioner]

The rep system is a consequence of the bad design. I'm trying to explain why it won't work, why it is unfair, and what issues should DE address instead of creating an unfair system.

I for one agree with you. Instead of solving some problems they're adding a rep system which has been bad all along on the forum. If anything, it should be limited to individual threads containing ideas/submissions and not random individual posts. Heck, they even had dislike/down and first only later bothered removing it and only keeping like/up.

Furthermore, you know it's gone too far when people who fully AFK entire invasions can openly post about it on the official forum as if it's simply just another part of the game. Punishing active players and rewarding idlers, is that really the way to go?? Finally, If the system is only going to be bump up, then how dose it possibly work in preventing idle and rude behavior?

[Lone_Tenno_Operative]

hmm idk i thought they said  or  what i understood from what they said ,is after the mission you can give "+" or "-" points to other players,

if you put "-" to someone that means you won't be matched with that player again, which honestly i do want,

i play pugs like 90% (rest i play solo) of the time and the amount of nice people i have met since march i could count on fingers of my hands

 

i wanted something that wouldn't match me with those people long time ago and i bet there is tons of others that never want to see someone they played with again, if this system will be like that it has +1 from me

basically you got a leecher / moron, you don't want to be matched ever again and he can't ever connect to your hosting game, give him all the "-" points you can ( i just hope it will work like that)

Edited February 2, 2014 by Lone_Tenno_Operative

[Zaresin]

That makes no difference at all.

I wrote this today, so what?

I don't live in Warframe, I can't watch, read and listen all they publish. Glad you can.

Then if you don't know what you are talking about why come to the forums and prove your ignorance on the subject?

 

Also on your claims...if you are trying to present facts, site sources.  More games have gone to rep systems and more continue to go to such systems.  If it did not work, the idea would be scrapped and others would not fall in line.   From my experience, the ones who do not like reputation systems have been the ones penalized by it.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Zaresin

[Zaresin]

So a Reputation system is coming to Warframe:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/170705-january-31st-community-hot-topics/?p=2000917#entry2000917

 

I've seen rep systems in both forums and games.

It never ever helped anybody but trolls. It's just another tool in their hands.

 

It won't bring anything but complaints from innocent players.

 

And It will not finish with AFK players because it doesn't address the real problems:

 

* Invasions need five runs. Doing the same mission five times is boring, even more when you think there's no variation at all, it's always Extermination.

 

* Furthermore, you need to rush them and do all five missions in a row in case the mission suddenly ends and you get left without reward.  You can't just say, "why, I'll do a run now and the rest later". You do that and you won't get that reactor.

 

* The real problem is not people going AFK, but not being able to open one fo those bloody dual lock doors because your mates left. These doors are an annoyance, but it seems you'd rather punish bored players than change the doors.

 

* Besides, Extermination games are very easy, meaning both a) players know the team can do fine without you so you can leave and b) doing five times the same very easy mission is even more boring.

 

*  What puzzles me the most, AFK people who did nothing and has spent the whole game idle, currently can and will get the reward. It's this what you should fix, and programmers have plenty of resources to know who was AFK and who wasn't. It is so obvious that only people who actually played the mission should get the reward. I can't believe you took the "punish players" way rather than the "let's fix mistakes" way.

 

* Did you already think how will you avoid players picking weak warframes with no extra HP or shields, and then killing themselves jumping into the fire? Just run far enough for your mates to come and rescue you before killing yourself with a Penta and there you are. And that would not be an AFK player...

 

* What about players who needed to leave the game because: pet jumped over the keyboard / family or friend had an accident / phone rang. Do they deserve to be punished?

 

* Same old story: since all these invasions are not being wrapped in any kind of story, they feel like the same, everyday grinding.  No new lore, no news, no dynamic universe, your same and sole answer for everything: more grinding.

 

 

I have a few ideas. I don't think they are really good ideas but I just didn't want to post this message without trying to help:

 

* Stop the five runs thing. Just one should be enough.

* "Just one run will feel  like an ordinary mission" -> not if you add some lore.

* Don't have time to create lore? Ask the community! Organize an invasion background contest.

* If for any reason you need to have players play the mission several times, then mix them missions. For example, have the squad play a random mission (Extermination, Survival, etc), then surviving players play a second mission, then a third.

Much more fun and challenging.

* Rather than a % completion, have invasions last for a fixed amount of time. A few days, so everybody gets a chance to play. The actual system doesn't make players think "oh, I'll try to play more often" but "damn, bloody RNG game".

* There will always be a smart &amp;#&#33; AFK player. Have AFK players receive no reward. Talk to your coders, they do know who was AFK and who wasn't.

 

Thanks for reading.

You chose to play the wrong game...this game is a loot game (dev's have said this time and again).  You will grind for the loot or spend plat, that is how loot games work.  Get over it and move to a different game.  You obviously want this to be another "silver platter" game where everyone gets what they want right away.  Sorry but that is not how loot games work bubba.  Might I suggest solitaire or backgammon or world of warcraft since that game has been dumbed down so much.

Edited February 2, 2014 by Zaresin

[Instinction]

So a Reputation system is coming to Warframe:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/170705-january-31st-community-hot-topics/?p=2000917#entry2000917

 

I've seen rep systems in both forums and games.

It never ever helped anybody but trolls. It's just another tool in their hands.

 

It won't bring anything but complaints from innocent players.

 

And It will not finish with AFK players because it doesn't address the real problems:

 

* Invasions need five runs. Doing the same mission five times is boring, even more when you think there's no variation at all, it's always Extermination.

 

* Furthermore, you need to rush them and do all five missions in a row in case the mission suddenly ends and you get left without reward.  You can't just say, "why, I'll do a run now and the rest later". You do that and you won't get that reactor.

 

* The real problem is not people going AFK, but not being able to open one fo those bloody dual lock doors because your mates left. These doors are an annoyance, but it seems you'd rather punish bored players than change the doors.

 

* Besides, Extermination games are very easy, meaning both a) players know the team can do fine without you so you can leave and b) doing five times the same very easy mission is even more boring.

 

*  What puzzles me the most, AFK people who did nothing and has spent the whole game idle, currently can and will get the reward. It's this what you should fix, and programmers have plenty of resources to know who was AFK and who wasn't. It is so obvious that only people who actually played the mission should get the reward. I can't believe you took the "punish players" way rather than the "let's fix mistakes" way.

 

* Did you already think how will you avoid players picking weak warframes with no extra HP or shields, and then killing themselves jumping into the fire? Just run far enough for your mates to come and rescue you before killing yourself with a Penta and there you are. And that would not be an AFK player...

 

* What about players who needed to leave the game because: pet jumped over the keyboard / family or friend had an accident / phone rang. Do they deserve to be punished?

 

* Same old story: since all these invasions are not being wrapped in any kind of story, they feel like the same, everyday grinding.  No new lore, no news, no dynamic universe, your same and sole answer for everything: more grinding.

 

 

I have a few ideas. I don't think they are really good ideas but I just didn't want to post this message without trying to help:

 

* Stop the five runs thing. Just one should be enough.

* "Just one run will feel  like an ordinary mission" -> not if you add some lore.

* Don't have time to create lore? Ask the community! Organize an invasion background contest.

* If for any reason you need to have players play the mission several times, then mix them missions. For example, have the squad play a random mission (Extermination, Survival, etc), then surviving players play a second mission, then a third.

Much more fun and challenging.

* Rather than a % completion, have invasions last for a fixed amount of time. A few days, so everybody gets a chance to play. The actual system doesn't make players think "oh, I'll try to play more often" but "damn, bloody RNG game".

* There will always be a smart &amp;#&#33; AFK player. Have AFK players receive no reward. Talk to your coders, they do know who was AFK and who wasn't.

 

Thanks for reading.

A good post, states the problem without raging, and states good possible solutions.
 

Besides that, all of my yes to this post. I agree entirely with every thing you mentioned here.

[10ner]

+1 Absolutely agree.

Stop patching up symptoms. Start reading afking and rushing as outcomes of fundamental gameplay flaws.

[SpilockT_T]

 

* What about players who needed to leave the game because: pet jumped over the keyboard / family or friend had an accident / phone rang. Do they deserve to be punished?

 

Just leave the game then..

[demonaii]

How will the reputation system work? Can someone explain it to me? I think it can be easly abused.

[Ced23Ric]

Downvotes were removed due to issues on the forums. I fail to see how this is gonna go over well with the game instead.

[demonaii]

Downvotes were removed due to issues on the forums. I fail to see how this is gonna go over well with the game instead.

I think a good way to reduce the abuse of this system is to be usable only with proof. That means you need to have proof to use the system.

[Ced23Ric]

I think a good way to reduce the abuse of this system is to be usable only with proof. That means you need to have proof to use the system.

 

Proof is arbitrary, cumbersome and subjective. Considering that you run many missions a day, how are you going to "prove" misconduct, without replays, and who is going to decide over the thousands of cases emerging from such a system of (pointless) checks?

[Mak_Gohae]

If you cant play five mission which DONT have to be in a row..... i dont know how you play video games.

We dont know yet what will happen with down voting, we just got some basic explanation that didnt go that far, but i am sure as hell going to be the example of what happens with a barrage of down vote. So i'll report as soon as this stuff comes out.

[MDRLOz]

I still do not get how this reputation is going to prevent Afkers at all. 

 

If I +1 players then I will pair more often with them. 

 

So I am less likely to get players I have not +1 again... 

 

But that doesn't affect people who I haven't +1. So even if I don't get to meet one Afk player any more there are still loads out there just waiting to afk through invasions. 

 

Tbh I say just reduce the exit time to 30 seconds on invasion missions. You don't lose out by not getting to the end and it speeds up the waiting of the people who actually did the run. 

[Volume]

inb4 reporting / tribunal

[bobafetthotmail]

+1, well put.