The Eviscerators Megathread

[Calayne]

You do get some mods at low levels.  Sure, you don't get a ton of them.  But at least one Serration, Hornet's Nest, Redirection, Vitality is far from impossible to get.  What you will not get is toxin or cold mods, or most likely not one storm bringer.  You will get enough fusion cores to rank mods up.

Perhaps so! But still, at rank 30, we are effectively Excalibur with rank 4/5 redirection AND vitality. A level most newbies may not achieve with the creds you get from missiona while still saving for a Braton.

But the point of a single loadout used by all testers is for uniformity and standard. We're of varying skill levels. I say perhaps I'm below average, RustyNaps is average and you're above average. We need the large sample size with the same loadout to see whether it's fair for the people who face this part of the game.

And based on your argument about serration and whatnot, I think it is flawless. You're right. They will get the basic mods.

Therefore, my recommended loadout has nothing but the easiest mods to attain. Try it.

[RustyNaps]

I personally feel they try to keep our interests in mind as much as they can. The friction is from why they do the things they do with little to no satisfactory answer.

A lot of the changes they made and we didn't like turned out to be better in the long run. Damage 2.0, for example.

Not to mention, they probably have a different goal in mind for Warframe, or perhaps, when all of our topics are condensed by moderators and Rebecca, it starts to look different simply due to the sheer size of our community and feedbacks.

Another possibility is that they know the breadth of the problem much more than we do

I do think they try to follow our suggestions. But we'll never know what they have to face, or what limitations there are.

Still, we should do our best to get them to see the ideas we think will work, as people who have played hundreds of hours. I've never spent as much money or time on a game as this. I'm praying they know what they're doing.

I used to be happy for each update, now a fear them. The games getting more cluttered and cluttered each update with even more problems ontop of the problems, then they get pushed to the side.

 

Heck I'm still waiting for good AI and Lore and I have heard that still hasn't happened since U7

[Eyeless]

Eviscerators might seem nice and rare...but...try a Phobos Survival.

 

[ThePresident777]

I tried Oro with:

Excalibur 30:  Slash Dash maxed, Radial Javelin max, Radial Blind maxed

Mk1-Braton:  Serration 10, Pierciing 9

Lato:  Hornet's Nest 8, No Return 7

Skana:  Pressure Point 9

 

It took me 7 tries to finally get to the Toxin contraption, but, I had forgotten to bring an anti-toxin.  And I died that 7th time too.  Each time I died it was because of some sneaky lancer who spawned behind me.  They were behind me gunning me down while I was fighting the mob ahead of me.  With all the gun fire in my earphones, it was too late before I realized I was ambushed.  The positional audio is not so good.  The Eviscerators were not anything special.  Everything was deadly.

 

 

Energy was rare so I didn't use my abilities.  Besides, the enemy was to spread out ot get my energy's worth.  And face tanking a cluster, to get close enough to SD or RJ was out of the question.  I saw one mod drop the entire time.  I never got the opportunity to sneak up on anything, which would have helped. 

 

I remained convinced that the problem was the inadequate equipment.  I needed more mods and for the tactics I was using, a bow or sniper rifle.

 

Then, I decided to try other mastery rank 0 weapons.  I picked:

Paris: Serration 10, Piercing 9

Bolto: Hornet's Nest 8, No Return 7

Fang: Pressure Point 9, Fury 9

 

Some of the ingredients for these weapons are not available until Vay Hek or Saturn.

 

I destroyed the toxin injectors.  Then, on the way to extraction I got bored which made me careless and my Tenno dead.

 

So, it was the equipment that was holding me back, and the eviscerators were just one of among many deadly foes, nothing to write home about.  But, it's not really the way I prefer to play anyway.  I like coop and inflicting catastrophe on the enemy.  I like fighting huge hordes and blowing them up in droves.

 

If DE would make the Mastery Rank 0 weapons craftable with resources from mercury and venus, it would help noobies to enjoy the game.

 

And, the loot tables need to be unborked again.  The codex does not list a source for Deep Freeze.  How are we going to fight corpus without cold mods?  Why do we have damage 2.0 if we can't make magnetism?  I have not seen Shotgun Spaz in ages and it does not have a drop source listed.  What good is a tread mill without loot, especially the loot needed to advance?  This is an old problem and we just had an update and some hotfixes that didn't address this most basic of problems.  Two livestreams in a row Rebecca has asked Scott about this problem and all we've gotten is, "I'll look into it."  I'm looking into it too.  It looks like it hasn't gotten any better.  Less nerfing, more repairing please.

[Neutralred]

You do get some mods at low levels.  Sure, you don't get a ton of them.  But at least one Serration, Hornet's Nest, Redirection, Vitality is far from impossible to get.  What you will not get is toxin or cold mods, or most likely not one storm bringer.  You will get enough fusion cores to rank mods up.

 

Gonna stop you right there. Vitality and Redirection, sure, no problem. Serration? Drops off Scorpions, which only show after earth, and specialised infested, which aren't even on the map unless there's an invasion. Sure, it's a possible Survival reward in Appolodorus... but go there with random online matched groups and see how long it takes to get it. Remember, it's not guaranteed by any stretch of the imagination. Last number I saw quoted was something like <1% chance to get it.

 

Hornet strike's almost the same story, except it drops off only one infested unit - toxic ancient - and no Grineer at all.

 

So yeah, it's possible to have those mods, but only technically. Yes, they're basic mods that every player assumes we'll get easily because they're fundamental to every build, so it's unthinkable that we'd struggle for them, but unfortunately DE apparently doesn't agree with the players on this one.

 

You're assuming things are still the same as when you went through. They're not. New players don't get many fusion cores, and they certainly don't have the credits to rank Serration up to 9 - or likely even 6 - by the time they hit Earth. Try going through with a fresh 'frame and weapon and only use what you find, since that's what newbies have to do. Maybe start a new profile, it's not like it costs anything. I guarantee you'll be surprised by how little you get.

 

There's also an argument on a previous page about whether players should be soloing Earth. That's a red herring. Someone else already noted earlier that playing with newbies on earth is an endless loop of reviving when they go down after one hit. New players go down just as quickly in groups. Even ganging up doesn't make these things balanced for where they are.

 

Lastly, bear in mind that the two new Interception maps are both on earth, and both in the required path to progress to other systems. This game mode is designed to be played by spreading over the map. Like it or not, even playing online, you're going to end up alone there. And Eurasia just loves to spawn Eviscerators. Eurasia is a problem map in general, what with enemy spawns right on top of the consoles and the dodgy broken terrain at Delta that cause frames to start doing squats or whatever when trying to get up them. And especially around point Alpha (I think - the one just down and to the right of Delta if you're facing Delta's spawns), Eviscerators love to blindside players while they're trying to fight lancers off the consoles.

[ThePresident777]

 

Gonna stop you right there. Vitality and Redirection, sure, no problem. Serration? Drops off Scorpions, which only show after earth, and specialised infested, which aren't even on the map unless there's an invasion. Sure, it's a possible Survival reward in Appolodorus... but go there with random online matched groups and see how long it takes to get it. Remember, it's not guaranteed by any stretch of the imagination. Last number I saw quoted was something like <1% chance to get it.

 

Hornet strike's almost the same story, except it drops off only one infested unit - toxic ancient - and no Grineer at all.

 

So yeah, it's possible to have those mods, but only technically. Yes, they're basic mods that every player assumes we'll get easily because they're fundamental to every build, so it's unthinkable that we'd struggle for them, but unfortunately DE apparently doesn't agree with the players on this one.

 

You're assuming things are still the same as when you went through. They're not. New players don't get many fusion cores, and they certainly don't have the credits to rank Serration up to 9 - or likely even 6 - by the time they hit Earth. Try going through with a fresh 'frame and weapon and only use what you find, since that's what newbies have to do. Maybe start a new profile, it's not like it costs anything. I guarantee you'll be surprised by how little you get.

 

There's also an argument on a previous page about whether players should be soloing Earth. That's a red herring. Someone else already noted earlier that playing with newbies on earth is an endless loop of reviving when they go down after one hit. New players go down just as quickly in groups. Even ganging up doesn't make these things balanced for where they are.

 

Lastly, bear in mind that the two new Interception maps are both on earth, and both in the required path to progress to other systems. This game mode is designed to be played by spreading over the map. Like it or not, even playing online, you're going to end up alone there. And Eurasia just loves to spawn Eviscerators. Eurasia is a problem map in general, what with enemy spawns right on top of the consoles and the dodgy broken terrain at Delta that cause frames to start doing squats or whatever when trying to get up them. And especially around point Alpha (I think - the one just down and to the right of Delta if you're facing Delta's spawns), Eviscerators love to blindside players while they're trying to fight lancers off the consoles.

 

You make good points.  So, you want DE to nerf the enemy so much that you don't need mods to fight them?

[Neutralred]

You make good points.  So, you want DE to nerf the enemy so much that you don't need mods to fight them?

I want DE to balance the mobs so that they're in line with the challenge expected and the equipment available, given how early on they appear.

[Calayne]

Yes. Story of wrong place, wrong time.

But more accurately, this game needs difficulty scaling, as this abundantly shows. The new players won't have the luxury of changing weapons and equipping Serration at level 6.

This is the point we were going to make. And I think this is a good time as any to implement difficulty scaling. As you well pointed out, the Eviscerators were the least of your worries.

Each planet is going to be unique at some point. Each planet will have things that are worth coming back for as a veteran, since going past as a newbie.

We need difficulty scaling. Now is the time. And while DE is at it, change bleeding's mechanics. It'll benefit everyone across all levels.

[ThePresident777]

I want DE to balance the mobs so that they're in line with the challenge expected and the equipment available, given how early on they appear.

 

The problem is that the availability of the equipment is terrible.  If you adjust the mobs to hardly any equipment then I think it would be very boring.  There would be less variety, less freedom, fewer play styles.

[Calayne]

I recommend this: when you select a mission, if you have finished it before, they allow you to choose a higher difficulty. There'll be three or four tiers to choose from:

Normal, what we started with,

Easy, enemies deal half damage and you cannot bleed to death (good for solo)

Hard, stronger and more numerous enemy types. Enemy level multiplier of 1.5x

Nightmare, enemy levels multiplied by 2x.

And Hellish, enemy levels multiplied by 3, and leaders spawn more often.

This will feed the people who not only have nothing to mod their gear with, but also the skill and hardcore junkies.

[ThePresident777]

Yes. Story of wrong place, wrong time.

But more accurately, this game needs difficulty scaling, as this abundantly shows. The new players won't have the luxury of changing weapons and equipping Serration at level 6.

This is the point we were going to make. And I think this is a good time as any to implement difficulty scaling. As you well pointed out, the Eviscerators were the least of your worries.

Each planet is going to be unique at some point. Each planet will have things that are worth coming back for as a veteran, since going past as a newbie.

We need difficulty scaling. Now is the time. And while DE is at it, change bleeding's mechanics. It'll benefit everyone across all levels.

 

I just showed the difference between soloing oro with and without good equipment.

[Calayne]

The problem is that the availability of the equipment is terrible.  If you adjust the mobs to hardly any equipment then I think it would be very boring.  There would be less variety, less freedom, fewer play styles.

I understand where you're coming from. But you should know by now mods were never a matter of flavor, but of necessity. Increasing mod drop rates won't change anything here. It won't save them.

All our builds devolve to max survivability or max damage and whatnot. There is no real choice. The mods will not change a thing. The karaks will still mow you down in seconds. You'll still bleed to death alone.

We need a lasting, all encompassing solution.

[Calayne]

I just showed the difference between soloing oro with and without good equipment.

Undoubtedly.

Actually, you also showed me that it was nigh impossible to get through with weapons you can obtain before Earth. Resource changing of weapons will not help. It is the place itself. Period.

[Calayne]

I used to be happy for each update, now a fear them. The games getting more cluttered and cluttered each update with even more problems ontop of the problems, then they get pushed to the side.

 

Heck I'm still waiting for good AI and Lore and I have heard that still hasn't happened since U7

Haha, have faith, friend. There's much more for Warframe to go through. Each update has its pitfalls, but every step brings us closer to the Warframe that we dream of. Or at least, as good as or better. They have good people, and a good thing going.

Life is a sine wave. Never expect it to always stay up.

[Neutralred]

The problem is that the availability of the equipment is terrible.  If you adjust the mobs to hardly any equipment then I think it would be very boring.  There would be less variety, less freedom, fewer play styles.

Your playstyle argument is fine, except that what we're discussing are not units that are challenging and require different play. We're talking about enemies that are overpowered to the point where I firmly believe this should be in the 'Bugs' forum, at a point where players don't have any choices. They need to be toned down simply to make the game playable at all for new players. They're effectively a roadblock to player progress.

 

Undoubtedly.

Actually, you also showed me that it was nigh impossible to get through with weapons you can obtain before Earth. Resource changing of weapons will not help. It is the place itself. Period.

The fact that most planets post-earth up to Phobos are far, far easier - even with the same equipment - bears this out. Something is very wrong with how Earth is balanced.

[Calayne]

Your playstyle argument is fine, except that what we're discussing are not units that are challenging and require different play. We're talking about enemies that are overpowered to the point where I firmly believe this should be in the 'Bugs' forum, at a point where players don't have any choices. They need to be toned down simply to make the game playable at all for new players. They're effectively a roadblock to player progress.

 

The fact that most planets post-earth up to Phobos are far, far easier - even with the same equipment - bears this out. Something is very wrong with how Earth is balanced.

Hear, hear. This is the message. Spread the love.

[ThePresident777]

You guys are just trying to trick me into soloing saturn. Then after that, uranus. I will not solo uranus!!

[Calayne]

You guys are just trying to trick me into soloing saturn. Then after that, uranus. I will not solo uranus!!

Lol, you're a funny dude.

But still, I invite anyone who is willing to give this challenge a try: it truly is a problem.

[TC-Guardian]

I love the challenge they pose, the "Oh bugger" moment when you see one as you reload it great, however there have been a couple of moments where its just a bit too much.

       Was playing on Earth before, had my maxed out Excal Prime on, from a distance I saw a single blade come in, I hadn't taken any other hits, the blade clipped my ankle, and within 3 seconds of the bleed proc I was down. To me this just seems a bit OP, I mean maybe 100 damage over 6 seconds is understandable. But 100+ damage over 1 second, just seems ridiculous, maybe less so at Tier 3 but earth is Tier 1, max 2.
     There was also a time when I have downed a Eviscerator before being hit by it, but a rebounding Miter disc struck, put on the bleed proc and downed me, I killed the Eviscerator in one shot as soon as I saw it before attacking any of the other 5 enemy surrounding it.
 

[(PSN)Cadeux-]

I actually like how bleeding actually makes health matter a little more in combat, in comparison to how enemies attacked before damage 2.0.

 

But at the same time I agree with everyone else that it sucks to have over 1000 shields and still keel over when a single stray bullet happens to hit you and apply a bleed debuff.

 

Personally; I'd like the bleed debuff to reduce health to 1, but never kill. This way there's still the danger of "the next time your shields drop you're going down", and Eviscerators can keep their status above the regular Grineer as "the guys that will sap your health from under your shields." It would be pretty easy to implement as well, a simple boolean check would do the trick.

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

Btw as I was reading the OP and the discussion, I seriously think you guys need to get some tactic skill under your warframes. Recently I played a lot of invasion missions against grineer, because I just hate the fact they've taken over the starchart.

 

What I was watching:

* Most players, even on unlit corridors, tend to rush in without thinking, but as stated above, eviscerators often hiding around the corners.

* They are real cowards. They are running behind corners and stuff, and this is exploitable.

* Yes, their bleed proc seems a bit OP, but it IS avoidable with a bit thinking.

* Again, most of the players aren't using their long range weapons, they are going close quarters instead.

 

Most of you guys already played the new invasion teleport area, which ends up in a room and a long corridor on the grineer side. I've easily cleaned that room or corridor with Ember's fireball + Dread + Wraith twin vipers. Yes, there were times when I went down, mostly when I was trying to revive fools who run into the mobs.

 

So, get a weapon which have punch through effect to make sure it hits through stuff, and/or have an AOE effect, because they aren't that tough. And use your warframe abilities, for god's sake, that's why they are there.

 

To be honest, I zorencopter directly into the middle of that Grineer room on purpose when I'm bored playing a Nova. It's a funny gamble seeing if my midair MPrime+proc will kill everything before I get pasted to the floor in the next half second. I only do that when playing with friends, though, and they always know what to expect.

 

My main issue with the Eviscerators is their fire rate. I don't really care that they're pretty beefy or that they have crazy damage. It's that they fire like 4 times a second with seemingly infinite ammo. You get a couple of them together machine gunning those things and you have a room full of sawblades that all have a pretty good potential to gib you. If they fired every couple of seconds (say, because they actually had to charge the dumb things), then I would be fine with that. It makes dodging the blades actually feel more like you're purposefully dodging and not just hoping that the carpet of blades doesn't screw you over.

 

Note that this is only for Earth. Later on in the game, I'm totally okay with how they are. Things should be dangerous later on. But for a newbie (and Earth is still a newbie planet), Eviscerators in their current state are absolutely terrible. Bleed procs simply feel bad. It's a dice roll and at that stage, when you really can't do anything about them, it feels especially bad.

 

And the mod tables really need to be reworked. I remember when starting out that I felt utterly useless because I did pretty much no damage, and it was mainly due to the fact that I did not have essential mods like Serration. Not that I even knew what the hell what stuff like Serration was or why it was so good. Once I did know, Serration took me like a week to get thanks to rng fun, same with Hornet Strike. You did your test with a rank 10 Serration. I would not expect any newbie playing on Earth to have anything near that. I've come across people trying to farm Nuovo (I farm there a lot) for their -first- Serration, because they had no luck elsewhere. That's Ceres and pretty much the highest level Survival you could get for Grineer (well, putting aside the fact that Grineer are taking over everything). That's absurd.

 

And again, unless a random newbie actually randomly manages to get one of these mods, then they won't even know that they exist or what they are missing out on without any external help. The mod and fusing system itself isn't even really explained. I remember I held onto my fusion cores for quite a while because I didn't know if any of the early mods I had were worth using them on. Honestly, without wiki or someone to spoonfeed me a ton of info, this game would be an utter nightmare. This is an issue on DE's side.

 

I'd really like it if enemies behaved differently depending on their current level. Rather than just having some absurd HP and armor buff, I'd like a level 50 Grineer simply be "smarter" than a level 10 Grineer. Give later enemies more tactics and tools to shake up the gameplay.  Maybe you can give later enemies some unique grenades that provide a slowing field in an area or something as a form of area denial. Make a level 50 Crewman something other than a level 1 Crewman with extra HP, shields, and damage. Warframe still has a lot of room to grow, though, and I suppose it is still technically in "beta", so I give it a lot of slack.

Edited February 12, 2014 by omgwtflolbbl

[Solostaran]

and we've been discussing this for literally months, i think we came with the general concensus is bleeding proc is a bad mechanic and needs changed or rebalanced, the first step being remove the shield-bypass.

I don't know ... give Health pack the abilities to remove bleeding at every healing tick (including the activation). The same for the Oberon heal (Trinity does not need anything more ^^). So we can counter an occasional bleed.

 

I saw comments above that unofficially stated that they never intend to heal in a game because they have shields. And I really don't want that sort of monolithic mechanism in this game.

 

But with that in mind, some small tweaks might apply to Eviscerators, just to keep them in line.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Solostaran

[Tsukinoki]

Well, last night I created a new account and with 2 friends who were new to WF decided to see how far we would get. I and one other played Excal, the other played Loki.

We managed to get through Mercury fairly decently when I decided to try to get us a serration (I know most people wouldn't look up that serration has a <7% chance to drop at 20 minutes in survival but I thought I would try).

We ran it 6 times.

4 times we made it to barely 15 minutes before having to leave, the other 2 we made it to 20 minutes and didn't get a serration either time (big surprise there) the others didn't want to do that and instead wanted to move to Venus to see the new enemies so that's what we did.

On the first venus mission we ran across 2 leader units. On a level 3 to 5 mission. One was a drainer, the other was a fire leader. Those stole a revive before we managed to kill them and moved on.

At this point I was able to buy a Braton while the others used their credits and the few mods they had to level up, which was one of them Heated Charge, Pressure Point and Vitality. I had to explain to them how to install mods and upgrade them and all that.

So we started to go through Venus.

I was the only one who was dealing damage really because of how the MK1-Braton focuses on slash damage, while the Braton has balanced stats and its impact really helps when fighting the corpus. Which does bring up the question: Why dont noobs start with the Braton and leave the MK1-Braton as a side-grade that focuses on slash for when they want it? It would make more sense that way, to start them off with a weapon that's balanced in all damage types.

We managed to get lucky and get Convulsion from an Oxium drone, which was a pain to take down without it suiciding. So now we had a pistol mod and we equipped it and off we went.

Jackal stymied us for a short while, and they were wondering why its shields were dropping so slowly until I told them to hit the legs and then shoot the body. We managed to get through that and then headed to Earth.

Now, by this point we had lost 1 revive from the leaders in Cytherean, and not a single one there after.

That changed quickly upon reaching Earth. We started E-Prime and the first room had 3 Eviscerators. It was hell, considering that we hadn't gotten a Redirection from the Elite Lancers on Mercury (And new players wouldn't even know Redirection existed, let alone that Elite Lancers can drop them). And even when our shields didn't go down we were downed from the bleed proc with absolutely nothing we could do about it. (And dont say buy Team Heal Restores, they are far too slow and noobs wont have the resources for making them)

The new guys lost 2 more revives before we finished E-Prime. The sudden difficulty wall was insane. Earth definitely feels like a planet that should be encountered later on, not as the third planet in the game.

So after that we decided to go back to Mercury to farm Elite Lancers and Vor in the hopes of getting some good mods. It took us 45 minutes to get our first redirection. 45 minutes of running the same mission over and over again to get a basic survivability mod.

At that point the others decided to call it a night because they didn't want to deal with the difficulty wall of Earth, and didn't want to run Apollodorus again to try to get to 20 minutes over and over and over again to get another basic mod: serration.

We did manage to get the Seer BP and parts, but how are new players going to be able to make the seer when it takes 2 orokin cells? I know its not a lot of cells but the cells drop from Saturn.

So I would say that Earth is horribly balanced for new players. Especially considering the mods that they have available at the time and the weapons.

They need to make mods like Redirection drop a lot more commonly from Elite Lancers, and they need to include more damage mods in the early units drop tables.

And they need to do something about serration as well. Maybe even make it a gaurenteed drop from 5 minutes into your very first survival mission (similar to how Vor still is gaurenteed to drop the Cronus first time you kill him) so that new players can at least get a decent damage mod early on in the game to even stand a chance against Earth.

Then DE really needs to smooth out the scaling at Earth so that it matches the mods and equipment that the average player will have there. Further, they can move MR0 items to require the components you can farm on Mercury and Venus so that new players actually have a chance at crafting new gear and improving their loadout.

As it stands, Earth with its Eviscerators is just a sudden death wall for new players. And I dont look forwards to trying to pull them through the Interception missions...

For the difficulty of Earth, and mainly its Eviscerators, new players dont have the mods or equipment available to them to deal with it properly.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Neutralred]

Did you run the tutorial? It gives a free unranked Redirection at the end. Not that shields help against bleeds, but, y'know. Would also be interested to know if the Cronus BP dropped, off topic. It didn't for the two players I introduced.

 

Other than that I'm right with you.

[Tsukinoki]

@Neutralred

The 2 new players went through the tutorial and never mentioned that they had redirection, so part of it was lack of communication on that part I guess. We got Vitality from Vor and I focused on that and how to install it and upgrade it to increase their survivability a bit. I should have done better to ask them about any other frame mods they had.