The Eviscerators Megathread

[Calayne]

Well, last night I created a new account and with 2 friends who were new to WF decided to see how far we would get. I and one other played Excal, the other played Loki.

We managed to get through Mercury fairly decently when I decided to try to get us a serration (I know most people wouldn't look up that serration has a <7% chance to drop at 20 minutes in survival but I thought I would try).

We ran it 6 times.

4 times we made it to barely 15 minutes before having to leave, the other 2 we made it to 20 minutes and didn't get a serration either time (big surprise there) the others didn't want to do that and instead wanted to move to Venus to see the new enemies so that's what we did.

On the first venus mission we ran across 2 leader units. On a level 3 to 5 mission. One was a drainer, the other was a fire leader. Those stole a revive before we managed to kill them and moved on.

At this point I was able to buy a Braton while the others used their credits and the few mods they had to level up, which was one of them Heated Charge, Pressure Point and Vitality. I had to explain to them how to install mods and upgrade them and all that.

So we started to go through Venus.

I was the only one who was dealing damage really because of how the MK1-Braton focuses on slash damage, while the Braton has balanced stats and its impact really helps when fighting the corpus. Which does bring up the question: Why dont noobs start with the Braton and leave the MK1-Braton as a side-grade that focuses on slash for when they want it? It would make more sense that way, to start them off with a weapon that's balanced in all damage types.

We managed to get lucky and get Convulsion from an Oxium drone, which was a pain to take down without it suiciding. So now we had a pistol mod and we equipped it and off we went.

Jackal stymied us for a short while, and they were wondering why its shields were dropping so slowly until I told them to hit the legs and then shoot the body. We managed to get through that and then headed to Earth.

Now, by this point we had lost 1 revive from the leaders in Cytherean, and not a single one there after.

That changed quickly upon reaching Earth. We started E-Prime and the first room had 3 Eviscerators. It was hell, considering that we hadn't gotten a Redirection from the Elite Lancers on Mercury (And new players wouldn't even know Redirection existed, let alone that Elite Lancers can drop them). And even when our shields didn't go down we were downed from the bleed proc with absolutely nothing we could do about it. (And dont say buy Team Heal Restores, they are far too slow and noobs wont have the resources for making them)

The new guys lost 2 more revives before we finished E-Prime. The sudden difficulty wall was insane. Earth definitely feels like a planet that should be encountered later on, not as the third planet in the game.

So after that we decided to go back to Mercury to farm Elite Lancers and Vor in the hopes of getting some good mods. It took us 45 minutes to get our first redirection. 45 minutes of running the same mission over and over again to get a basic survivability mod.

At that point the others decided to call it a night because they didn't want to deal with the difficulty wall of Earth, and didn't want to run Apollodorus again to try to get to 20 minutes over and over and over again to get another basic mod: serration.

We did manage to get the Seer BP and parts, but how are new players going to be able to make the seer when it takes 2 orokin cells? I know its not a lot of cells but the cells drop from Saturn.

So I would say that Earth is horribly balanced for new players. Especially considering the mods that they have available at the time and the weapons.

They need to make mods like Redirection drop a lot more commonly from Elite Lancers, and they need to include more damage mods in the early units drop tables.

And they need to do something about serration as well. Maybe even make it a gaurenteed drop from 5 minutes into your very first survival mission (similar to how Vor still is gaurenteed to drop the Cronus first time you kill him) so that new players can at least get a decent damage mod early on in the game to even stand a chance against Earth.

Then DE really needs to smooth out the scaling at Earth so that it matches the mods and equipment that the average player will have there. Further, they can move MR0 items to require the components you can farm on Mercury and Venus so that new players actually have a chance at crafting new gear and improving their loadout.

As it stands, Earth with its Eviscerators is just a sudden death wall for new players. And I dont look forwards to trying to pull them through the Interception missions...

For the difficulty of Earth, and mainly its Eviscerators, new players dont have the mods or equipment available to them to deal with it properly.

 

 

This guy has some stones. Well done, my friend. Neutralred is right in pointing out that Redirection is a guaranteed drop, and you make a fair point about needing Serration to be dropped as a guarantee. But I think the fact that they didn't even know Redirection was there is not your fault.

 

There's a few things that has to be done to ease newbies into the game. I think we can help the developers with that, and the Codex, while helpful, will not be the first place newbies will look into just to see what's in there. Even if they do look into it, it will not give sufficient information to teach you how to fuse, what transmute does, and so on. There needs to be an interactive tutorial for all that.

 

But going back to the point, Tsukinoki is right: It is far, far too hard for beginners. 

 

I tried my build again, but went to Saturn, Mimas. It was easy. When you get there, soloing even a survival mission to complete it is more than possible. I only started dying when the Napalm came out, and spamming Slash Dash still needed about five hits to kill him. Saturn is far, far easier than Earth. And that is simply way too weird.

 

I'd like to reiterate my stand that a mode for beginners would certainly help them get past this stage, and implementing modes for veterans to return will be helpful: After playing this gimped-out Excalibur, there's a rush when fighting enemies which are tougher than normal. The Eviscerators are simply frustrating, not challenging, and I believe the point is made.

 

Wrong place, wrong time, for Eviscerators, Elite Frontier Lancers and Helions.

[Tsukinoki]

@Calayne

I'm glad that Hellions didn't spawn on E-prime for us the one mission we ran there, or it would have been even worse. Hellions and Eviscerators have no place on Earth with the difficulty of the planets before, and immediately after.

I bet if I taxi'd them to Mars or Saturn they would have a far easier time and a lot more fun. The fact that a difficulty wall exists that early in the game is a problem, especially with how it just drops off again.

For Hellions and Eviscerators I would make them super rare spawns on Earth, and even then only in the Defense and Survival missions (similar to how Bombards can show up in Apollodorus), and put them into the spawn tables for Saturn and beyond so it would make a bit more sense.

I'll be seeing tonight how doable the Interception missions are with them, but depending on its spawns of Eviscerators and Hellions, and the fact that they are unavoidable, its likely to be a wash.

[Calayne]

Good luck, friend. May the Lotus be with you.

 

I tried soloing the Sabotage mission with an Anti-toxin. Post insertion, the defence bit was the worst. Ice leaders EVERYWHERE, with Elite Grineer Lancers just chugging down 300 shields in mere seconds. Hellions as well, raining death from above, and you can't dodge it. Even with the best timing of your dodge, you always have a chance to get knocked down, then the rest of those brutes jump all over you with their pants pulled down to their ankles.

 

The worst part is, most of the time, it works for them. Even without the Ice Leaders, I would have died sooner or later. The Leaders just exacerbated the problem.

 

But anyways, all the best! I wish we could let the newbies know it isn't meant to be this way. It's too hard for them.

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

(...)

 

After reading this post and similar ones, i'm really glad that i started playing sooner than later i will probably quit the game after few painful Earth runs.

DE really should give newbies necessary mods, maybe whole Mercury should be treat like one big tutorial plus they should replace MK1 Braton with something more useful like Braton or something else or atleast buff whole starting gear, did i mention that DE nerf Lato/Aklato? So, yeah new players are now in one big "bloody" hell, unless they have friends/money but that's not an excuse to have poor new players experience.

[Bibliothekar]

Well, last night I created a new account and with 2 friends who were new to WF decided to see how far we would get. I and one other played Excal, the other played Loki.

I did almost the same today (only without the friends, but random PuGs instead).

Neutralred is right, the tutorial drops a redirection. A different problem is: when you leave the room, there is a broken bridge and Lotus just tells you to use your parkour skills to cross it. But she doesn't tell you how to trigger a wallrun. And most people probably won't bother to read it up in the Codex afterwards (if they even know that it exists). I had to teach three newbies how to do a vertical wallrun in the second or third mission, because they didn't know.

First mod that dropped on Terminus was Ice Wave. Exactly what I needed. </sarcasm> Elion (MD) gave me Vitality, that's good. But not everyone might have that luck. Apart from that (overall drops): 1 Point Strike, 4-5 Pressure Point. That's it.

And later, when facing Vor, I needed to tell a rank 0 Trinity (hey, she was the first frame I bought, too), that it's a bad idea to use Well of Life on bosses, no matter how much your health drops, and why that is. And no, I didn't get a Cronus. Instead I got Seer Barrel.

 

/e: Just for the record, I did Lares (defense) with a friend. And it was quite interesting to see the difference between my then lvl5 starter-Excal and his maxed, potatoed and formad one.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Bibliothekar

[OblivionNecroninja]

And later, when facing Vor, I needed to tell a rank 0 Trinity (hey, she was the first frame I bought, too), that it's a bad idea to use Well of Life on bosses, no matter how much your health drops, and why that is. And no, I didn't get a Cronus. Instead I got Seer Barrel.

What about the ol' Well of Life/Energy Vampire trick (putting EV on someone when WoL is almost out of time to slap them with a massive DoT?

I know it wasn't relevant to that situation, but hey.

 

I did almost the same today (only without the friends, but random PUG instead).

Neutralred is right, the tutorial drops a redirection. A different problem is: when you leave the room, there is a broken bridge and Lotus just tells you to use your parkour skills to cross it. But she doesn't tell you how to trigger a wallrun. And most people probably won't bother to read it up in the Codex afterwards (if they even know that it exists). I had to teach three newbies how to do a vertical wallrun in the second or third mission, because they didn't know.

How on EARTH (lolpunz) is the tutorial still so BAD?

Edited February 12, 2014 by OblivionNecroninja

[Calayne]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/176616-new-players-need-loadouts/#entry2061581

 

We need something like this. A selection of weapons, which you can try out in the start of the tutorial, and a selection of Warframes as well.

 

And as pointed out, the mod drops are rather absurd as well. But still, that's perfectly fine, all the way up to Earth. Not even all the mods can save you from that place. Seriously.

[Bibliothekar]

I asked, if she had EV equipped, but she didn't. And for some weird reason, I didn't bring Radial Blind, which I had equipped right before that mission, either.

[Neutralred]

Radial Blind

This ability will SAVE YOUR &amp;#&#33; in Eurasia. <3 that it goes through solid walls.

[Tsukinoki]

@Calayne

I think that along with the selection of a starting weapon loadout they need to increase the general availability of weapons to Pre-Earth players.

As it is the list is incredibly short and none of the weapons, except maybe the strun (which requires 75K to buy), will be too much help on Earth with the lack of mods.

They need to go through the MR0-1 weapons and change them to be easier to craft with mats you can get from Mercury and Venus. Especially with how melee is going to change soon™ they need a wider variety of melee weapons possible to craft from the earlier planets as well.

[Calayne]

I agree. I suppose we should take this to your topic, though, since this is titled "Eviscerators" and we're kind of outside its jurisdiction.

 

Perhaps they'll change this difficulty on the next few Updates? I can foresee this being ridiculously frustrating for the newbies. It feels like a level 15-20 planet, if not higher. 

[Tsukinoki]

Back on topic again, Eviscerators just need to be pushed back to Saturn at the earliest. AND their bleeding needs to be fixed quite a bit.

I like the idea that others have fielded where bleeding cant kill you by itself.

That keeps them dangerous, without making it ridiculous.

[Calayne]

Definitely agree. I'm more of the opinion that the value of bleed should be hard-capped, though. Maybe 5% damage per tick, meaning about 20 seconds to bleed out. Quite generous, but still dangerous, and even Lancers will be somewhat dangerous. 

 

But I certainly like the idea of bleed not killing you straight away. That is super attractive. 

 

Hmm, do you think it's a good idea for bleed to be weapon-damage dependent, though? From the look of things, the Bleed may deal 100% of the damage dealt over a period of time. Probably 5-6 ticks. This is far too dangerous, even for bleed that won't kill you outright.

 

Perhaps a simpler solution would be to reduce the damage Eviscerators deal?

[Tsukinoki]

@Calayne

I believe that bleed already deals a percentage of the weapons damage, I think its around 37-40%, per tick. And it manages to tick 7 times in 5 seconds. So after you get a bleed you're suffering 259% to 280% of that shots damage directly to your health with no way to mitigate it as I haven't noticed armor affecting the bleed damage at all.

And the damage the Eviscerators do isn't too terrible on its own.

Its the fact that bleed ignores shields AND can stack multiple times. I'm not sure if bleeding has a stack limit at all, meaning that you can be hit by 2 or 3 blades and your health is going to be gone no matter what you do.

I honestly think that the simplest solution is to do what they did to the vampire nightmare mission: just make it unable to kill you by itself.

It would satisfy everyone, the new players wouldn't have to worry about bleeding out and yet the veterans would still have a very dangerous opponent to fight.

[Calayne]

Very dangerous.

 

But the sheer damage they do by itself is stunning. Toning it down a little may be beneficial as well, to bring balance back to the game. In Phobos, the same problem occurs, since Hellions and Eviscerators combine to knock you down and bleed you out insanely fast, to say nothing of the pure damage they deal.

 

Hardly an adequate level of challenge, considering that Hellions and Eviscerators spawn very often in those maps. And on Earth, the same thing occurs rather frequently as well, making it a truly deadly combo. The Blast proc is really quite frustrating. It could be 5%++ in chance, but the sheer amount of missiles... It seems half of the time, I fall to the ground with the Hellion missile swarms. And the Eviscerators have more than 50%, that I'm certain of.

[Toom1275]

What would be a nice help is if Slash procs were blocked on shield hits. Bleeding should only occur if the damage actually reaches flesh.

[Tsukinoki]

@Calayne

I agree completely with toning down the bleed damage quite a bit.

For us bleed isn't that useful.

When you can get it to proc against a boss it doesn't do much. 2.6 to 2.8 more bullets worth of damage against their incredibly large health pools. And smaller things die fast enough that bleeding isn't that useful.

For us with our much smaller health pools its just too much, especially at the lower levels.

So reducing the percentage of damage that bleeding causes wouldn't really noticeably affect our damage outputs, but it would noticeably affect the damage we take from enemies that focus in slashing, which isn't too many to be honest.

I remember I had a phobos survival with a borked spawn table. It spawned ONLY eviscerators and hellions. No arid lancers or seekers or anything else. Just 5 solid minutes of eviscerators and hellions. And it was truely hell. Constant knockdowns and bleed procs and nothing we could do to survive it.

Oh and did you know that while rhino cant get procced while IS is up, if someone else is hit with a blast proc and they are standing next to you you can still get knocked down by blasts AOE effect?

But for early game Eviscerators are just too much to handle. And while Hellions are more manageable I think that at least at Earth they need to be handled with the spawn tables like heavy enemies are, such as Heavy Gunners and Bombards. That would go a long ways towards making Earth more manageable for new players.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[MaskedSin]

The point he's trying to make is that the veterans should see it from the perspective of the newbies on Earth. So for us, with our potatoed Somas and Galatines and Brakks and Detrons, with our maxed Serration, Split Chamber, Hornet Strike and Barrel diffusion, with all our maxed elemental mods and potatoed Rhino, we should man up and see it from their perspective.

The whole point we've been trying to make is that they cannot survive it alone. It is too soon, far too hard for what level they are. They are having their pea shooters pit against a monstrosity that will likely obliterate them in one hit.

How, may I ask, is that fair or balanced?

There is no place here for people who are not willling to lower themselves to the level of the people affected by this. It IS a problem, friend.

We cannot hide behind semantics. Use my build, and go in there. Then tell us whst you feel about it.

Please.

 

I tried pointing this out the other day but, instead faced a barrage of Veterans telling me "the game was too easy, deal with it".

 

I'm a new player, I've been playing for 2 1/2 weeks now...

 

I used to farm earth (Cambria) nightly...It was the last thing I did before I logged to farm for neurodes...I'd pick a frame I hadn't played all night and just went to town on it...It was fun because noob noobs would join that had literally just made it to earth with their Mk1 bratons and they only have a handful of mods...So, it was fun to help newer people through the survival...I'd take them out to 20-25 minutes, NP.

 

Now? They run for the exit at 5 minutes and get knocked down 5/6 times in those 5 minutes...

 

Earth in general, because of the changes, have actually become a choke point for noobs and I think that's an incredible mistake.

 

It needs to be scaled so that newer players can continue to farm earth in order to level their frames...That's how I did it...I've heard that's how most of you did it...

 

Why remove that and replace it with, as a real noob coined Cambria last night, "the survival from hell", is beyond me...But, it needs to change.

Edited February 12, 2014 by MaskedSin

[Calayne]

Absolutely concur. 

 

There's just something completely unbalanced about Earth at the moment.

 

I can only imagine what is going through the minds of the newbies when they get to Earth:

 

"Holy tail-fin, Batman! If this is the difficulty of  Earth, WHAT'S GONNA BE AFTER THIS?!!"

 

 And the answer is... Not much. Because after that, everything else becomes cakewalk again.

[Onisa]

We didn't have this problem when people were able to get a good basic set of mods quickly.  And you shouldn't expect new players to solo the second planet.  You should expect successful solos from better equipped and more experienced accounts.

From where I'm playing, we also didn't have this problem before Frontier Eveserators on Earth. So again, two part problem.

 

Also a team of 4 mid to low level Tenno vs 3 Eviserators hiding in a smallish space? Hope someone has Enemy Radar maxed, or they're toast.

[CapnFusterCluck]

I use my (now) level 20 Ash throughout these levels and it's hard. I'm constantly face-to-face with danger from these guys because the Corpus MOAs/Crewman are too wimpy to go in first. So what do I do? I just carry around a weapon that can at least knockdown.

 

Eviscerators are strong, but not invincible. They're vulnerable to knockdown and take their dear time getting up. With this in mind, I just blast a full clip of my rifle into them. It gets tedious, and not to say ridiculous, but it gets the job done. 

 

When even tankiness isn't enough, you have to carry around something else to help you. My (now) maxed Scoliac definitely helps me out; in a big(?) radius, I'm able to knock down at least 4 of the 5 Grineer (2 of which are Eviscerators) down. You want prioritize taking Eviscerators down first because, as we all know, Elite Lancers are just pitiful. 

 

Or focus on quick takedowns. Headshots. If that's too hard for you (that is, aiming your weapon a little bit more upward), then... I don't know what to tell you. 

 

It's pretty clear to me from reading these comments that tankiness isn't enough. You have to strategize (what, who does that?) to survive and take down these enemies. Even if you're Rhino or Frost, you're not invincible. 

[Bibliothekar]

Hope someone has Enemy Radar maxed, or they're toast.

Suggesting you're lucky enough to get an alert on Mercury or Venus that gives this aura as reward.

[MaskedSin]

If you can't dodge Eviscerator blades, either you have slow-reaction times or your keyboard is &#036;&amp;*&amp;*#(%&amp; (sorry for being politically incorrect). 

 

I use my (now) level 20 Ash throughout these levels and it's hard. I'm constantly face-to-face with danger from these guys because the Corpus MOAs/Crewman are too wimpy to go in first. So what do I do? I just carry around a weapon that can at least knockdown.

 

Eviscerators are strong, but not invincible. They're vulnerable to knockdown and take their dear time getting up. With this in mind, I just blast a full clip of my rifle into them. It gets tedious, and not to say ridiculous, but it gets the job done. 

 

When even tankiness isn't enough, you have to carry around something else to help you. My (now) maxed Scoliac definitely helps me out; in a big(?) radius, I'm able to knock down at least 4 of the 5 Grineer (2 of which are Eviscerators) down. You want prioritize taking Eviscerators down first because, as we all know, Elite Lancers are just pitiful. 

 

Or focus on quick takedowns. Headshots. If that's too hard for you (that is, aiming your weapon a little bit more upward), then... I don't know what to tell you. 

 

It's pretty clear to me from reading these comments that tankiness isn't enough. You have to strategize (what, who does that?) to survive and take down these enemies. Even if you're Rhino or Frost, you're not invincible. 

 

So your theory is that a player new to the game (We're discussing earth, here) should just "deal with it" and become "strategists" with their Mk1 Bratons and limited access to mods?

 

Interesting.

 

Really glad I started the game before 12.0 because if I had been a noob now, and Cambria is what it is, now -- I would've likely quit, honestly.

 

Cambria is the one place that allowed new players to farm mods while actually leveling frames/weapons etc.

 

You've now added an enemy and immediately say, "strategically plan your assault or die".

 

There's a difference between challenging and so hard it's stupid -- I hate to break it to you but, most NEW players I talk to, believe the latter...I agree w/them.

 

By the time you can target the Eviscerator in earth at 5 minutes, you have EVERYTHING ELSE, coming down on you...And you don't have a Soma, you don't have max mods, you have a Mk1 Braton and maybe 4 mods -- Hardly enough to actually survive...The best strategy in that situation: Skip Earth or get piggied through it, entirely.

[Tsukinoki]

@Bibliothekar

And you cant count on Enemy Sense dropping from Flameblades considering that they start appearing on Earth...

@ikillyou8196

And you completely ignore the plight of new players having to deal with Eviscerators and Hellions on Earth, congrats on missing that point spectacularly.

[Onisa]

Suggesting you're lucky enough to get an alert on Mercury or Venus that gives this aura as reward.

It was more me suggesting a newbie being lucky enough to party up with someone leveling their third or fourth frame.