True Necromancer - Nekros Theme Revamp

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Yes, it is out of left field. That is more fitting a thief, scavenger, or rogue class, not a necromancer. Looting bodies may have to do with corpses, but that barely scratches the surface of what a necromancer is capable of doing.

 

Plus it's f*cking boring. 90% of my Survival time is spent pushing 3, and it's dreadfully dull. Yet it's necessary for my team's success. He is the team handyman, the team janitor. Doing the thankless job nobody else wants to do but needs to be done: sweeping floors. Does anybody actually enjoy playing Desecrate? Doesn't seem like it, and to us that's bad game design.

 

It's only out of left field if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Necromancy is summoning spirits for the purpose of divination (or would be if spirits and necromancy were real, but that's another issue). Now, obviously, coming up with "hidden knowledge" or prophecy in a third person shooter is kind of absurd. I mean, what would you even get? Instead, you get beneficial things, energy, ammo. It's also the one skill he has that doesn't sound like magic and doesn't make the nanomachine explanation seem silly. And if you're going to make concessions so you can have a grim reaper frame with a zombie army and call it necromancy, there's no reason you can't stretch it to fit in desecrate. You need to stop letting other games define what you think a class can do.

 

If you don't like playing that frame, don't play it. Play one you don't find dull. It's not hard. As much as I said soul punch and terrify could use a little buffing to their utilty side, I like and use them plenty along with desecrate. If you spend 90% of your time pressing 3, then you're spamming it uselessly, and if you're exaggerating you should know exaggeration is lousy for making a point.

Edited March 23, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Archwizard]

It's only out of left field if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Necromancy is summoning spirits for the purpose of divination (or would be if spirits and necromancy were real, but that's another issue). 

 

Here we go again.

 

We're not talking about the Greek interpretation that's been dead since the dark ages. We're talking about the video game interpretation, which applies here.

 

It's not as simple as "Don't play it if you don't like it". I'm not alone in saying I love playing minion master classes, and Nekros was the prime opportunity to create one because - in video game terms if nothing else - that's what necromancers do. Instead, the best chance to see that archetype represented in this game was wiped for an incredibly bland frame (where three out of four skills are repetitive and the last is time-consuming and dull); his skills may be useful, sure, but they aren't what we signed up for.

 

Answer truthfully: in spite of your smart-alec dictionary definition of the abilities of one back in ye olden days, when you hear "necromancer", is your first thought really "gets loot from corpses"? Or is it "summons forth the ghosts of the dead".

Edited March 23, 2014 by Archwizard

[Noble_Cactus]

It's only out of left field if you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Necromancy is summoning spirits for the purpose of divination (or would be if spirits and necromancy were real, but that's another issue). Now, obviously, coming up with "hidden knowledge" or prophecy in a third person shooter is kind of absurd. I mean, what would you even get? Instead, you get beneficial things, energy, ammo. It's also the one skill he has that doesn't sound like magic and doesn't make the nanomachine explanation seem silly. And if you're going to make concessions so you can have a grim reaper frame with a zombie army and call it necromancy, there's no reason you can't stretch it to fit in desecrate. You need to stop letting other games define what you think a class can do.

 

If you don't like playing that frame, don't play it. Play one you don't find dull. It's not hard. As much as I said soul punch and terrify could use a little buffing to their utilty side, I like and use them plenty along with desecrate. If you spend 90% of your time pressing 3, then you're spamming it uselessly, and if you're exaggerating you should know exaggeration is lousy for making a point.

 

What, do you want me to provide hard numbers for how many times I use Desecrate over the course of 30-60 minutes? Because I don't have that. But it's a lot, and I make sure every corpse is re-rolled for the sake of getting more oxygen. I can - and do - Terrify in clutch situations like if I need to revive someone. The majority of the time is not spent in combat as a Nekros. For very long survivals, the Desecrate use is well into the thousands. Tenn O's 3.5 hour-long survival from before U12 launched had their Nekros use Desecrate around 4,000 times. And last night I was farming Neural Sensors on Elara and Desecrated... 400-500 times over half an hour? I can't really remember.

 

"It's only out of left field if you don't know what you're talking about" All you provided for Desecrate fitting a Necromancer was that I shouldn't let other media influence what I think a necro is. If you had said "he desecrates to draw the spirits out of bodies" then I would be more willing to take you seriously.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

 

We're not talking about the Greek interpretation that's been dead since the dark ages. We're talking about the video game interpretation, which applies here.

 

Oh look, you linked to a post where you failed to refute the idea previously. That doesn't help much.

 

Okay, we'll throw out the actual definition and go with the "some crap they just made up" definition. If it's whatever they made up, then desecrate fits. Anything fits if they're just doing whatever they like. And it really makes the whole "True Necromancer" thing look a bit dumb, doesn't it? You know, since we're ditching what a true necromancer would do and going with a zombie army instead. Either it fits because it's actually the most necromancer-like ability he has or it fits because the standard is whatever DE feels like doing.

 

All you provided for Desecrate fitting a Necromancer was that I shouldn't let other media influence what I think a necro is. If you had said "he desecrates to draw the spirits out of bodies" then I would be more willing to take you seriously.

 

It looks like you forgot to read the post you quoted. What you're looking for is the largest paragraph, in the middle, champ.

Edited March 24, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Charismo]

Just say what everyone else says, that you enjoy getting extra loot and don't want to lose that ability, and move on. You already nailed the real problem these threads are trying to alleviate -

 

"Gameplay is much more important than Warframe's abysmally bad lore."

 

Desecrate is not fun to use. It's bland, boring gameplay. It doesn't matter to me what the it does. Just make it fun to use, and then everyone will be happy. Christ almighty I don't know why DE can't get this.

 

Character abilities are what really drew me into this game and set it apart for me, but once you get down to it, it's so bland. I don't even really care what they do with theme or whether Nekros is a "real" necromancer, he's just the easiest and most obvious blemish to point out. If a bot with a single line of code could do my characters' job, something ain't right.

[kaboomonme]

I liked all the changes except for one.

Terrify, and how the skill functions, still doesn't make sense to me : Why would they get scared by a "Boo!" from Nekros, then later decide "Hey, I don't feel so terrified anymore, let's go!", until Nekros casts it again.

If anything, Terrify would make more sense as an Area-denial + CC skill of sorts. Like some of the previously mentioned suggestions, either an Aura around him that scares the enemies, or an AoE duration skill that enemies dare not to step into, or will flee when affected, would make more sense in the context of "Fear".

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Just say what everyone else says, that you enjoy getting extra loot and don't want to lose that ability, and move on. You already nailed the real problem these threads are trying to alleviate -

 

"Gameplay is much more important than Warframe's abysmally bad lore."

 

Desecrate is not fun to use. It's bland, boring gameplay. It doesn't matter to me what the it does. Just make it fun to use, and then everyone will be happy. Christ almighty I don't know why DE can't get this.

 

Character abilities are what really drew me into this game and set it apart for me, but once you get down to it, it's so bland. I don't even really care what they do with theme or whether Nekros is a "real" necromancer, he's just the easiest and most obvious blemish to point out. If a bot with a single line of code could do my characters' job, something ain't right.

Almost no skill, considered in alone, is going to be fun to use.

 

It's useful. It's good for survival, it's good for loot, and it's even good for health in some situations. Just casting it isn't fun, but just casting any skill won't be fun. Turning invisible as Loki or floating enemies with Vauban isn't fun on it's own. Loki's invisibility becomes fun when you just narrowly make it into a room with a cap target and invisibility keeps you alive, or when you land a big charge attack with your double damage. Bastille becomes fun when you systematically humiliate enemies with shotgun blasts to the groin, but isn't anything on it's own. When you get a mod or rare core with desecrate, get a bunch of air tanks, or create a field of health and energy orbs for your team, desecrate is fun.

 

Maybe "fun" isn't the right word though. Fun isn't what I really mean to say. It's rewarding. You get that "everything is going well" tingle. You get to say you did it. When I think of purely fun things in warframe, I end up with a list like Tail Wind, Super jump, Kestrel charge attacks, and Bounce pads, all of which kind of suck outside of very specific situations.

Edited March 24, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[slappy330]

I do like that change to SOTD though.

[Charismo]

Almost no skill, considered in alone, is going to be fun to use.

 

It's useful. It's good for survival, it's good for loot, and it's even good for health in some situations. Just casting it isn't fun, but just casting any skill won't be fun. Turning invisible as Loki or floating enemies with Vauban isn't fun on it's own. Loki's invisibility becomes fun when you just narrowly make it into a room with a cap target and invisibility keeps you alive, or when you land a big charge attack with your double damage. Bastille becomes fun when you systematically humiliate enemies with shotgun blasts to the groin, but isn't anything on it's own. When you get a mod or rare core with desecrate, get a bunch of air tanks, or create a field of health and energy orbs for your team, desecrate is fun.

 

Maybe "fun" isn't the right word though. Fun isn't what I really mean to say. It's rewarding. You get that "everything is going well" tingle. You get to say you did it. When I think of purely fun things in warframe, I end up with a list like Tail Wind, Super jump, Kestrel charge attacks, and Bounce pads, all of which kind of suck outside of very specific situations.

 

I feel you on that. There are a lot of things in the game that give you that kind of satisfaction, and a lot of that is to be found in any kind of progression based game.

 

The skills that stick out to me are the ones that have some kind of inherent difficulty that the player has to contend with. Tail Wind is a really good example. It can get you around the level any which way you'd like, and opens up a few novel possibilities with some of the weapons like the Ogris. But it's also finnicky, and you need to be aware of how the gravity effects you while using it, or else you're going to run into problems every now and again.

 

Desecrate is straight forward, and very rewarding. It's so easy to build for and abuse. I may be in the minority, but If there was some kind of more involved dynamic to it that I had to work with, I'd be much happier when using it. I guess.

 

I think they got Snowglobe into a nice sweetspot, and it has that kind of involvement I'm looking for. Maybe if Desecrate were to get a similar treatment, I'd cool with that.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Charismo

[kaboomonme]

 

Desecrate is straight forward, and very rewarding. It's so easy to build for and abuse. I may be in the minority, but If there was some kind of more involved dynamic to it that I had to work with, I'd be much happier when using it. I guess.

 

I think they got Snowglobe into a nice sweetspot, and it has that kind of involvement I'm looking for. Maybe if Desecrate were to get a similar treatment, I'd cool with that.

Completely agreed. Dynamic skills are what can and will make our current Warframe abilities more fun and less "Press2Win". Snowglobe is only the beginning.

If they revisit most of the other frames and apply this to the abilities, it would definitely give the game a bigger "fun" factor, and a better impression to newer players too.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Desecrate is straight forward, and very rewarding. It's so easy to build for and abuse. I may be in the minority, but If there was some kind of more involved dynamic to it that I had to work with, I'd be much happier when using it. I guess.

 

Maybe up the effectiveness, guarantee some drops, and make it a large range "debuff" or team buff that must be cast before the enemies are killed? You come upon a large group of enemies, have to communicate with your squad, and then kill as many of them as you can in 10 seconds (bodies disappear in about that, iirc). Unfortunately, that still sounds really spammable. It just gives you something to talk about. It's just not an especially interactive skill effect. My stance is that desecrate stays the way it is. It can be Nek's Iron Skin: an unexciting utility skill.

 

Honestly, if they changed up the other skills, people would spend their energy on them and only cast desecrate when an especially large number of enemies went down at once. If shadows weren't totally useless (and that counts on DE fixing all sorts of pathing and targeting problems, along with entirely changing their behavior) I'd be blowing 100 energy on them all the time. If Soul Punch had a hilarious radial knockdown around the target, I'd do it just to watch enemies flop around. If someone still only uses desecrate after changes like that, then it's their fault for not pressing the funny buttons

[Noble_Cactus]

It looks like you forgot to read the post you quoted. What you're looking for is the largest paragraph, in the middle, champ.

 

"Necromancy is summoning spirits for the purpose of divination (or would be if spirits and necromancy were real, but that's another issue). Now, obviously, coming up with "hidden knowledge" or prophecy in a third person shooter is kind of absurd. I mean, what would you even get? Instead, you get beneficial things, energy, ammo. It's also the one skill he has that doesn't sound like magic and doesn't make the nanomachine explanation seem silly. And if you're going to make concessions so you can have a grim reaper frame with a zombie army and call it necromancy, there's no reason you can't stretch it to fit in desecrate. You need to stop letting other games define what you think a class can do."

 

So Nekros divines the corpses of his enemies to draw forth 'prophecy' in the form of loot. A creative interpretation, and I'm willing to accept it. At this point we're stepping into the territory of how certain characteristics of certain archetypes are portrayed in a video game world. Valkyr and Ash would also be subject to this kind of scrutiny, since they represent berserker and ninja archetypes, respectively, and both of them draw upon video game antecedents (and to a larger extent, those of Westernized fantasy media as a whole).

 

And that would not only derail the topic, but would likely never come to a solid conclusion. Instead, we can drop the vitriol and focus on the real meat of the issue: Desecrate's mechanics and how the move is performed in the game world.

 

 

Almost no skill, considered in alone, is going to be fun to use.

 

It's useful. It's good for survival, it's good for loot, and it's even good for health in some situations. Just casting it isn't fun, but just casting any skill won't be fun. Turning invisible as Loki or floating enemies with Vauban isn't fun on it's own. Loki's invisibility becomes fun when you just narrowly make it into a room with a cap target and invisibility keeps you alive, or when you land a big charge attack with your double damage. Bastille becomes fun when you systematically humiliate enemies with shotgun blasts to the groin, but isn't anything on it's own. When you get a mod or rare core with desecrate, get a bunch of air tanks, or create a field of health and energy orbs for your team, desecrate is fun.

 

Maybe "fun" isn't the right word though. Fun isn't what I really mean to say. It's rewarding. You get that "everything is going well" tingle. You get to say you did it. When I think of purely fun things in warframe, I end up with a list like Tail Wind, Super jump, Kestrel charge attacks, and Bounce pads, all of which kind of suck outside of very specific situations.

 

You ignore something that separates Desecrate from all of the other skills you mention. Desecrate has to be pressed multiple times in succession for its full potential, sometimes 10 or more times in a row. Admittedly, there is a small degree of satisfaction from hearing the Desecrate sound and seeing all of those bodies cough up loot. But compare that to something like Sonic Boom. I press a button, enemies in front of me get knocked down for me to shoot - for me to take action. I press a button to activate Sonar, enemies are debuffed and I'm free to move again and take advantage of what I just did by aiming for the glowy orange bits. Sonar actively challenges the player for greater rewards.

 

Desecrate, meanwhile, is press 3, press 3, pres 3, press 3... and then press 3 some more until you hear the buzzer. Then you move onto the next area, kill some stuff with your guns, then repeat the process while your teammates kill everything. That is why Desecrate is not fun to many players. It's not like Bastille where you turn the battlefield into target practice. It's a job that must be maintained for as long as you have energy and have the patience to press 3.

 

The simplest and most attractive solution, to me, was proposed by VKhuan in his own thread: Make Desecrate a pinging aura.You activate it once, and you're good to go. The invisible aura (or maybe it can visually pulse, send out tentacles/nanomachines, whatever) extends x meters around Nekros and lasts for y duration, bother of which are affected by their respective power mods. That way, Nekros can be mobile while doing his accepted Survival job. He is now a battlefield dark magician, felling swathes of enemies and using their corpses in death to sustain both himself and his teammates in life.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Valkyr and Ash would also be subject to this kind of scrutiny, since they represent berserker and ninja archetypes

 

The simplest and most attractive solution, to me, was proposed by VKhuan in his own thread: Make Desecrate a pinging aura.You activate it once, and you're good to go. The invisible aura (or maybe it can visually pulse, send out tentacles/nanomachines, whatever) extends x meters around Nekros and lasts for y duration, bother of which are affected by their respective power mods.

 

Valkyr and Ash are just awful in general. I won't get too off topic about it, but I will say that Valk was clearly designed before a damage model change, when health-tanking was viable and they didn't know how to make her work afterward or didn't review her.

 

I guess I wouldn't mind that change to desecrate. I think it removes the one aspect of skill, however minor: choosing the right time to cast it. On the other hand, it just makes using it easier so... whatever. I can't complain about that since it's effectively the same but less fiddly.

[nekrojiji]

This is not a medieval rpg..... stop it with the magical ...necromancer S#&$.

 

The tenno use technology not magic. Take your necromancer some other place please!

[Archwizard]

This is not a medieval rpg..... stop it with the magical ...necromancer S#&$.

 

The tenno use technology not magic. Take your necromancer some other place please!

 

Then call it applied use of bioweapons and nanomachines instead of magic. Doesn't change that Nekros is still formally called the necromancer any more than Oberon's called a paladin or Valkyr a berserker.

 

[size=2]The OP even uses the zombie movie explanation of "viruses" for crying out loud...[/size]

Edited March 24, 2014 by Archwizard

[Phatose]

 

You ignore something that separates Desecrate from all of the other skills you mention. Desecrate has to be pressed multiple times in succession for its full potential, sometimes 10 or more times in a row. Admittedly, there is a small degree of satisfaction from hearing the Desecrate sound and seeing all of those bodies cough up loot. But compare that to something like Sonic Boom. I press a button, enemies in front of me get knocked down for me to shoot - for me to take action. I press a button to activate Sonar, enemies are debuffed and I'm free to move again and take advantage of what I just did by aiming for the glowy orange bits. Sonar actively challenges the player for greater rewards.

 

Desecrate, meanwhile, is press 3, press 3, pres 3, press 3... and then press 3 some more until you hear the buzzer. Then you move onto the next area, kill some stuff with your guns, then repeat the process while your teammates kill everything. That is why Desecrate is not fun to many players. It's not like Bastille where you turn the battlefield into target practice. It's a job that must be maintained for as long as you have energy and have the patience to press 3.

 

The simplest and most attractive solution, to me, was proposed by VKhuan in his own thread: Make Desecrate a pinging aura.You activate it once, and you're good to go. The invisible aura (or maybe it can visually pulse, send out tentacles/nanomachines, whatever) extends x meters around Nekros and lasts for y duration, bother of which are affected by their respective power mods. That way, Nekros can be mobile while doing his accepted Survival job. He is now a battlefield dark magician, felling swathes of enemies and using their corpses in death to sustain both himself and his teammates in life.

 

Unless the pulse rate is very high, you'd be losing utility.  A fair number of situations offer limited windows of time to desecrate.  The fast dissolving corpses of the infested, for example, or any time a nova or saryn is around.  In all three cases, you've got a quite limited window of time to actually pull off a desecrate.  With a timed pulse aura, you'd need to be lucky to get a pulse at just the right moment to actually desecrate those corpses.  Manually, you can be guaranteed a shot at those openings simply through player skill with timing and battlefield awareness.

 

Pretty bad trade for not having to hit 3 over and over.  Especially considering how many players have shown perfect willingness to hit 4 over and over again.

[Noble_Cactus]

Desecrate still affects corpses who have visually dissolved from the Acrid or M.Prime. Not sure about Miasma now that I think about it.

 

You bring up a good point though. It'd have to be a constant aura that immediately consumes corpses as soon as you come into their range. Would this cause performance issues? Not sure.

 

As for this type of Desecrate removing the risk of positioning that ElZilcho mentioned, that is true as well. My first impulse is to say "give it a slower casting time," but that's a bad idea. You'd still have to find a safe corner so you can activate it, though, or wait for your Trinity to Blessing up so you can Desecrate up.

[kaboomonme]

This is not a medieval rpg..... stop it with the magical ...necromancer S#&$.

 

The tenno use technology not magic. Take your necromancer some other place please!

From the poll that the peeps were voting for that time, I thought that was the case, but after looking through the posts, most of the peeps that voted for Nekros was because they expected a typical Necromancer archetype, and they wanted that in Warframe.

How Nekros turned out was probably a little disappointing for the Necromancer fans that threw in their votes. I may not be a fan of it (I voted against it, in fact), but the demand is there.

[Zeful]

This is not a medieval rpg..... stop it with the magical ...necromancer S#&$.

 

The tenno use technology not magic. Take your necromancer some other place please!

Excalibur Codex entry.

The Sentients had won. They had turned our weapons, our technology, against us. The more advanced we became, the greater our losses. The war was over unless we found a new way. In our desperation we turned to the Void. The blinding night, the hellspace where our science and reason failed. We took the twisted few that had returned from that place. We built a frame around them, a conduit of their affliction. Gave them the weapons of the old ways. Gun and blade. A new warrior, a new code was born. These rejects, these Tenno, became our saviors. Warrior-Gods cast in steel and fury striking our enemies in a way they could never comprehend.

Excalibur was the first.

- Orokin 'Warframe' Archives

Ember Codex entry.

Three figures waited behind a simple table. Their attention on a single chair, bathed in light. An old woman's voice from the shadow: 'Send her in'. Across the room a security officer, stern and plain, opened the door. The outline of a young woman appeared at the door. She hesitated, but only for an instant, then crossed the room and sat.

There was a gasp as the light hit her face. Her right eye was bright and blinking, but her left was a greasy slit. Her skin had been burned moon-white. Her mouth was a sagging gash without lips or expression. Her military beret was pulled snug over a scarred and hairless scalp.

 

The old voice: 'Your name is Kaleen.' Kaleen nodded. 'You were the principal investigator of the Zariman?' Kaleen's voice was a jagged whisper, a rigid face. 'Yes.'

 

Kaleen coughed, straightened: 'The Zariman was lost making the fold from Saturn to the Outer gates. Mechanical failure. I notified families and filled a report with the inspectors. Nothing ever returns from the fold, so I closed the case.'

 

'But you reopened the case, days later.'

 

'I didn't believe it myself until I stepped aboard the ship. It was completely intact, full environmental, as if it had never left.'

 

'And the crew was gone.'

 

'Not exactly.' Kaleen hesitated. 'We thought it was empty but we began to find...' Her face twitched at remembered pain, 'We began to find children hiding in the ship.'

 

'And that is when you violated procedure?'

 

Kaleen bowed her head, a tear welling in her sightless eye. 'They were children. They were afraid. They needed comfort.'

 

'So you broke quarantine and this happened to you.'

 

There was silence as Kaleen touched her face, 'So what have you done with them?'

 

The old woman gestured for the officer to take Kaleen away. The meeting was over. When Kaleen reached the door she twisted out of his grip and shot back, 'Why would you do that? Why did you put children on military ship?'

 

'We didn't. That would violate procedure.'

 

Arid Fear Victory entry.

MY QUEENS-

They found us. Why did the Corpus think they could hide in the void? Despite their heritage they seem blind to the Tenno's connection to it. I know you are sour on mysticism, but I'm beginning to turn my view on it.

 

Every time we tear a Tenno corpse from it's metal womb we find nothing to explain their power. Our Warframe enginees gesture wildly about nanotechnology, how reactive dissoultion hides the answers. What if a Warframe is merely a lightning rod? A conduit for these demons of the Void? Consider how it could change our plan.

 

For now I await the Tenno's invasion of our Settlements. I have brought with me some reinforcements and your messages of encouragemnt to rile up the troops.

 

VOR

 

The game's lore makes it clear that the Tenno and their powers do not operate under scientific principles, thus their powers are by definition not technology. The warframe itself, as a conduit of their powers? That's technology. The powers they enhance? Pretty much explicitly magic. And this is on purpose.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I read it sort of like a Marvel comics mutant. They went to the Void and came back changed.

 

What does Mag(neto) do?

Controls magnetism.

 

How do they do it?

They do it by... shut up.

 

The difference between mutant/Tenno powers and magic is pretty much the fluff behind it, but while you can write off most of the other powers as not explicitly magic, Nekros has souls and ghosts. I want to be clear I'm totally overanalyzing it here, but if Shadows were just nanomachines, Nek would be able to drop a dozen bombards every time, or a dozen dual-wielding Super-Bombards! Why can he not just make the microscopic robots do whatever? Soul Punch pretty explicitly says it punches the soul out of an enemy. That's not just magical, but comes with theological implications aside from any Orokin superstitions (e.g. Lotus: "That power is sacred") they've been passing on. I'm fine with strange, unexplained powers because any piece of fiction where that sort of thing exists will ultimately come down to an answer of "look, we're not going to explain exactly how it works" but Nek really kind of stands out as outlandish even for mutant cyborg space ninjas.

 

DE has mentioned a desire to fix up the lore, and (even though I said I wasn't going to) I have some much less magical explanations, not that they're necessarily better, they're just more sci-fi.

 

Soul Punch: Nekros causes the biochemical/electrical/space hogwash energy inside the target's body to explode, hurling them backwards (or ideally knocking down everyone around them in addition to that) with the potential to hit other enemies.

 

Terrify: Nekros emits a cloud of nanomachines which, depending on the target, manipulate their brain chemistry or temporarily damage their programming, to mimic a state of fear, causing them to flee.

 

Desecrate: A hostile swarm of nanomachines disintegrates bodies, potentially revealing more items they were carrying and converting their useful materials to supplies for Tenno.

 

Shadows of the Dead: I have no idea, it's f-ing ghosts. This would be easier to write fluff for if it reanimated local enemies by having nanobots drive them around like meat machines after they were dead. I still think it either needs much better AI (I described it before) for the shadows or to be replaced with something more explicitly useful.

 

They all sort of involve death and a swarm of "semi-biological" nanomachines (remember that they're also sort of tying in the technocyte virus from Dark Sector) buzzing around him, like flies around a corpse (or very corpsey looking Warframe that probably has an equally icky and emaciated looking pilot).

 

You know, this really makes Nekros seem like an infested-themed warframe, especially with all their "TRANSCEND MORTALTIY" conversations on the space-phone, and he does come from Lephantis...

Edited March 25, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[mooser6]

Exploding minions anyone?

 

What if SoTD instead of creating a minion army that "fights" alongside Nekros, each of the raised minions sprints toward an enemy or group of enemies and explodes x seconds after reaching them. Ultimately, it's a damage dealing ability, so it could just as well be anything else, but it keeps with his theme and there could be other mechanics involved with it such as raised bad guys draw aggro and act like meat shields until they blow, maybe the explosion deals a combination of blast and corrosive damage with chance to proc either or both, maybe the more health they had in life the more damage they deal in their short lived explosive afterlife, etc...

 

Thoughts?

[Archwizard]

DE has mentioned a desire to fix up the lore, and (even though I said I wasn't going to) I have some much less magical explanations, not that they're necessarily better, they're just more sci-fi.

 

Soul Punch: Nekros causes the biochemical/electrical/space hogwash energy inside the target's body to explode, hurling them backwards (or ideally knocking down everyone around them in addition to that) with the potential to hit other enemies.

 

Terrify: Nekros emits a cloud of nanomachines which, depending on the target, manipulate their brain chemistry or temporarily damage their programming, to mimic a state of fear, causing them to flee.

 

Desecrate: A hostile swarm of nanomachines disintegrates bodies, potentially revealing more items they were carrying and converting their useful materials to supplies for Tenno.

 

Shadows of the Dead: I have no idea, it's f-ing ghosts. This would be easier to write fluff for if it reanimated local enemies by having nanobots drive them around like meat machines after they were dead. I still think it either needs much better AI (I described it before) for the shadows or to be replaced with something more explicitly useful.

 

They all sort of involve death and a swarm of "semi-biological" nanomachines (remember that they're also sort of tying in the technocyte virus from Dark Sector) buzzing around him, like flies around a corpse (or very corpsey looking Warframe that probably has an equally icky and emaciated looking pilot).

 

You know, this really makes Nekros seem like an infested-themed warframe, especially with all their "TRANSCEND MORTALTIY" conversations on the space-phone, and he does come from Lephantis...

 

Necrosis: Injects the target with a diluted strain of Technocyte, weakening the target's immune system and causing the nanomachines to take over the husk upon death. The dilution means that the corpse is mildly unstable as it goes through rigor mortis.

 

Drain Vitality (renamed Soul Feast in my other thread): Aerosol sprays a cloud of nanomachines on enemies to harvest synthetic/organic materials, then retrieves the nanomachines to perform direct repairs on allies using collected materials.

 

I have no expectation that making Nekros more "necromantic" would necessarily have to make him more magical... not that anyone knows where Tenno powers come from anyway; Nyx is explicitly said to be a psychic after all. It should be ambiguous enough that the player can choose to believe whether or not it's supernaturally induced by whatever transmutations occurred in the Void (and Lotus is trying to sound like she knows what she's talking about), or based on the advanced yet perverse sciences and technologies developed by the Orokin. After all, Nekros seems designed to play on the superstitions the Grineer and Corpus have towards the Tenno.

 

Plus I like to believe Nekros may actually be a medium and his nanomachine-built minions actually host the traumatized souls of his enemies, since psychic abilities aren't out.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Archwizard

[Steelfeathers]

Wouldn't category #1 be more specific to warlocks, not necromancers?  (Granted, source material varies wildly.) 

 

Anyway, I would love for Nekros to be a legitimate minion master.  Here are my personal preferences for his skills:

 

1. Dominate Soul - basically soul punch, but instead of spawning a second projectile after the initial target is hit, it knocks all enemies within ~5 meters of the target away from the target (still inflicts damage).  If the target dies within 30 seconds, it is summoned as a zombie minion (as others have stated).  Up to 3 minions can be alive at once. 

 

2. Ultimate Sacrifice - drains 30% of Nekros' maximum health, and gives it to his minions (with a multiplier of 2x at max rank).  Nekros' damage is reduced by 30% for 15 seconds, but his minions gain 30% increased damage and a 30% reduction to incoming damage.  This skill can be re-used while still in effect (to provide further healing), and enemies will not target Nekros as long as this skill is in effect and he is within 15 meters of one of his minions (they will target the minions instead).  If Nekros does not have any living minions when he casts the ability, the effects are given to his teammates instead (however, the bonuses are cut in half).  [This follows the Warframe design philosophy that all abilities must be able to stand alone.]

 

3. Corpse Explosion - similar to Desecrate, but all corpses in the area deal 200 viral (or possibly gas) damage to all enemies around them.  Furthermore, this skill is used at range by targeting a corpse (instead of radiating from Nekros himself), enemies are guaranteed to drop 2 health orbs apiece, and cannot drop any other loot (I would argue that the air canisters in survival are an exploit, and resource grinding is a shameful way to make a warframe useful).  [i would also like to propose this skill's unofficial name be Death Pinata.]

 

4. Twisted Chimera (alternate names: Midnight Hour, Soul Harvest) - for 25 seconds, every kill Nekros makes increases his damage and maximum health by 2%.  Nekros also regenerates 3% of his maximum health per second.  All living minions are absorbed by Nekros at the start of this ability, and each consumed minion adds to the base effects of this ability (for a maximum of +8% damage per kill, +8% max health, and 12% health regen per second). 

 

 

These would be (more or less) loyal to the necromancer archetype, give Nekros a solid end-game role as a support character, and provide a large amount of synergy between skills.  Nekros' main weakness would be energy generation, since he'll need to use at least 175 energy to get the most out of his ultimate. 

Gah, I love this and OP's idea so much!

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Drain Vitality (renamed Soul Feast in my other thread): Aerosol sprays a cloud of nanomachines on enemies to harvest synthetic/organic materials, then retrieves the nanomachines to perform direct repairs on allies using collected materials.

 

I still think something like this would make a better ult than shadows. Make that really powerful, or make it buff your next soul punch cast (which would be AoE) based on the amount of enemies you drain. Now that would be a cool nuke to throw out, transforming a utility knockdown skill to a crazy ranged damage ability that you have to think about when to charge up (because it will only hold one Drain charge) and when to use (beacuse you don't want to blow it on a shield drone). Find a room full of enemies, drain their lives to increase your power, carry that charge to the boss, and sit them the hell down with it.

 

I know that's the opposite of the way you want him to go, but I just can't get past shadows being awful because of their time limit and behavior. Like I said: if they were effective for more than a bad version of Nyx's Chaos, I'd be blowing 100 energy on them all the time. Frankly, that's why I'm so opposed to him being a minion master. A minion master, with minions this bad, would be dead weight. My tune will certainly change if they do the behavior thing I suggested. IF they manage to make minions not hoover balls like there's a million dollars on the line, then, and only after that, should they start switching out skills for them.

Edited March 28, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Archwizard]

My tune will certainly change if they do the behavior thing I suggested.

 

*goes back to check*

 

Shadows of the Dead is probably his weakest ability as it is and is his ult, so it could do with the most improvement, but I want to keep the spirit (haaaah... sorry) of a disposable army on demand. I think the duration limit should be removed. It scales with enemies, as it just revives them with the same stats they had when they died, which means they'll be killed off naturally. I think the real weakness is that the shadows do nothing to defend you. They should be made to follow you more closely and operate in a "Revenge, then attack" way. Like the shade sentenel, they should go after an enemy that damages you, but they can't be useless if they're doing their squishy caster meatshield job and soaking up fire, so they should attack the nearest enemy if you haven't been hurt and stop attacking to catch up when you move a certain distance away. They'll be more useful because they defend and advance toward the source of damage, and this will improve the "minion master" feel without having to throw out all his non-minion abilities. Finally, let it be recast while active. All the minions from the previous cast die when recast, but it will let you keep the little army going as long as you can pick up the kills and have energy. 

 

I think a lot of the ideas you mention in here about the Shadow summoning conditions got pulled into Necrosis, but I definitely advocate the AI improving.

 

The only issue I have with your suggestion, is that if the minions were permanent with no limitations, then you'd have the issue of minions being like... a way bigger Iron Skin with damage, if that makes sense? You could cast Shadows early on and then they'd just sort of make a damaging barrier around you for the rest of the mission, that you could keep replenishing with the kills they get. It'd be awesome, but it'd be so overpowered. They're not really "disposable" (especially given their shot at permanence), just numerous.