Dear De, The Problem With Aoe Ultimates, And Abilities In General

[adoomgod]

Edit 1: I AM NOT ADVOCATING NERFING EVERYTHING, Every "nerf" I list should only be applied if a skill is tweaked to be a lot stronger/more useful in the late game. As skills are atm not a single skill needs a nerf except for blessing. If you read you'll actually see I'm asking for a lot of buffs as well. Balance is not nerf. I want AOE skills that can do well in high level content but not faceroll.

AOE ultimates have a problem gameplay wise, which I will go into in some detail, but first I want to state that I will not be claiming to have the solution. Here I will just list perceived problems and multiple solutions for said problems that the developers can tweak, pick and choose from if they so wish.

THE PROBLEM

AOE damage ults are simply either too strong or too weak. It becomes a matter of press 4 to win. In areas where they can one or 2 shot everything, it becomes the only thing you need. In end game tower long-term defense/survival they become useless-ish.

The way they are you are stuck with 2 situations. Either they are too weak and become never used in late game content, or they are too strong and become the most efficient thing in end game content.

As such here are a few things to consider:

-Most frames should not have an AOE damage ult. It's ok for them to exist but they should only be on caster frames.

-I know DE is against cooldowns but they should consider them for ultimates. If they decide to make some ults that can kill even late game content in massive AOE then they should have a 1.5-2.5 minute cooldown. This makes for a spectacular ability that looks awesome and deals incredible damage but on cooldown, making it a panic button. Great for getting out of sticky situations but not spammable.

-If you want a spammable AOE ult then make it so it can't just destroy everything in 50 meters instantly. Give it a range cap. You would have to mod to reach the cap but not that much. This makes for a near by spammable aoe skill that does decent damage but doesn't effect everything in a 10 mile radius.

-You could have ults/abilities that do a % of enemy max hp, or a % of enemy current hp. i.e. if an ult does 50% of an enemy's max hp, then 2 casts would kill the enemy, or more casts if the damage is reduced by armor. If the ability does 10% of an enemy's current hp, then you have a good way of chunking down high hp enemies, which becomes less effective as their hp is lower.

-You could make ults cost 100% of your maximum energy so that you need energy orbs to reuse them.

-My favorite idea on this list: Make leaders and perhaps some other new enemy type IMMUNE to ultimates and make them hit like a truck so that there is a risk when casting an ult because it won't effect everything.

Better ideas:

-Replace most AOE ults with utility based buffs/enemy debuffs that are themed to their class.

Rhino - Make his ult just stasis enemies but for a slightly longer period of time. Or, give him an ult that buffs all the weapons and skills of his allies for 30 seconds on a 90 second cooldown that gives 100% proc chance for knockdown on everything. This would be entertaining because your bullets would make enemies fall down and it is inline with the rhino theme.

Nova - the 200% damage taken is plenty, please remove the AOE or hard-cap the aoe's range. As entertaining as it is, she practically becomes a must if you want to do end-game defense for long periods of time.

Ember, make her ult drastically increase enemy vulnerability to fire damage for 40 seconds, 120 second cooldown, and while it's active make her fireball buffed and free to cast. This will be a fun utility ult becomes while active ember becomes a fireball spamming death goddess that can actually dish out damage.

Zephyr - while the tornadoes are active give everyone bonus firerate and attack speed and 5% bonus slash damage. (highly pressurized air can cut like a blade)

Volt - something similar to the above. Maybe an 3 second AOE stun and bonus electric damage for team, or make it an AOE kill switch with a large cooldown.

Saryn - Debuffs enemies so that when they die they release an aoe cloud of poison that does % of max hp damage to nearby enemies, on cooldown.

Loki - Keep the ability as is, make it cost 80% of max energy, and make it give all teammates 9ish seconds of invisibility. It essentially becomes a fun melee buff as well as a disarm tool.

Excalibur - Keep ability as is but add % current health damage and make all swords have innate punch through by the bucket loads. Add a cooldown and a buff giving everyone punchthrough for 12 seconds.

etc. etc. etc.

Over powered isn't bad, it's only bad if it breaks the game by become so useable that it's the only sensible choice when trying to grind efficiently. The thing to aim for is a DIVERSITY of FUN abilities. Team based abilities are great because they buff you when solo and do even more in co-op. Same goes for enemy debuffs.

In conclusion. Utility > then damage in most cases for co-op play. Super strong abilities than can wipe out even end-game monsters are fine if they have a large cooldown. Weaker abilities are fine too if they also provide an actually useful utility or can be buffed to late-game viability.

Edited February 13, 2014 by adoomgod

[PJMcKay]

Again, another Nerf it all thread.  Please, if you do not like the abilities, do not use them.  Heck, take off all your mods and enjoy.  Why these useless ranting posts about nerfing everything to the ground keep showing up because people want every frame and every single weapon to have the same stats and mods is crazy.

 

How about this.  Make a new frame.  Call it "Bo-Bo".  Whenever people complain about the frame, take all their frames away and give him/her "Bo-Bo".  Likewise with weapons.  You can also give them "Bo-Bo Gun", "Bo-Bo Pistol", and heck, even "Bo-Bo Stick".  Mind you, that this frame and all weapons should come with no slots.

[noveltyhero]

Loki is fine as he is

[egregiousRac]

Cooldowns don't work well when the enemy spawns are unpredictable, which is part of what makes Warframe interesting. I agree that ults that don't scale to the enemy or to your weapons damage wise need more utility. Just look at Frosts ult (due to a bug): Five seconds of freezing everything in a decent radius. It doesn't need to deal a ton of damage, and might not even need damage at all. It just fully locks down everything to give your team a chance to breath.

[BrotherIcarus]

Cooldowns don't work well when the enemy spawns are unpredictable, which is part of what makes Warframe interesting. I agree that ults that don't scale to the enemy or to your weapons damage wise need more utility. Just look at Frosts ult (due to a bug): Five seconds of freezing everything in a decent radius. It doesn't need to deal a ton of damage, and might not even need damage at all. It just fully locks down everything to give your team a chance to breath.

Finally someone who sees the use of avalanche also it is not a bug.

[Tr1ples1xer]

GO AWAY damn nerfer, you are ruining everything ! don't like something ? don't use it or change server, get a clan, get a clue, but please please don't ever request nerfs, they are taking everything fun from this game because some dude says nerf it, nnot cool, not cool at all bro.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Tr1ples1xer

[SkyIRaine]

There are many flaws with your proposal

 

1) Only Aoe skills on caster frames limit creativity, Rhino, Frost, Oberon?, Saryn? No aoe skills?

 

2) Why a range cap? Modding over 50m reduces damage by alot when using overextended unless you have Blind rage / Focus, etc

 

3) % hp damage won't work without some flat damage, because it means you can't kill them, only "damage" them

Scales to high level content, but in low level content you get a problem, less effective without utility

 

4) 100% Energy costs? You have just broke flow, it also means you can't use more than one ability at a time, energy crisis, etc

 

5) Immune to Leaders and Heavies? Then what's the point if you kill all the trash mobs, in higher levels its not one hit kill anyways

 

6) Cool downs limit game play. You would be always saving to use it at the right moment, play the wait game for cd and move on

 

There's too much problems with your suggestions, its not a diversity of fun abilities, its a straight on nerf, we had this cool down in closed beta I believe? and there was tons of complaints and waiting, that's why it was removed in OBT ~

[egregiousRac]

Finally someone who sees the use of avalanche also it is not a bug.

 

It is most definitely a bug. The damage occurs when the animation ends if you have default or less than default range. It is only with increased range that the damage is delayed, thereby leaving the enemies frozen.

[Rundas342]

Dont touch Loki.

[adoomgod]

Dear DE, please ignore the illiterates who failed to read my thread through. There are a lot of good ideas in it, and nowhere did I say nerf everything. I even said to buff some abilities. I'd love to see some ultimate that could destroy tons of units level 50+, but it shouldn't be spammable.

 

I AM NOT ADVOCATING NERFING EVERYTHING. I AM NOT EVEN ADVOCATING NERFING ANYTHING NECESSARILY.

 

Replacing an AOE ult that does no damage to level 50 mobs with something that adds damage to the whole teams arsenal of guns for a long period of time is hardly a nerf.  

 

I also didn't advocate putting a cooldown on everything. Just on skills that last an enormous amount of time or skills that can instantly kill everything level 50+/ in the end game.

 

I love skills. I love caster frames. I'm just advocating removing press 4 to win on most frames and creating a better diversity of play. If you aren't willing to read the thread please don't comment.

 

This means you PJM and you Tr1ples. If you don't like something don't use it is invalid. The ideas that players need to artificially challenge themselves is stupid. There should be challenging content at the end of the game. Secondly, again I think most of these skills need a BUFF and a cooldown or 100% energy cost. That way they'll be viable in the end game.

 

Cooldowns don't work well when the enemy spawns are unpredictable, which is part of what makes Warframe interesting. I agree that ults that don't scale to the enemy or to your weapons damage wise need more utility. Just look at Frosts ult (due to a bug): Five seconds of freezing everything in a decent radius. It doesn't need to deal a ton of damage, and might not even need damage at all. It just fully locks down everything to give your team a chance to breath.

 

I like frost's ult. And yes loki is fine the way he is, but he could be even more fun for team play without changing his solo kit at all.

Edited February 13, 2014 by adoomgod

[adoomgod]

There are many flaws with your proposal

 

1) Only Aoe skills on caster frames limit creativity, Rhino, Frost, Oberon?, Saryn? No aoe skills?

 

2) Why a range cap? Modding over 50m reduces damage by alot when using overextended unless you have Blind rage / Focus, etc

 

3) % hp damage won't work without some flat damage, because it means you can't kill them, only "damage" them

Scales to high level content, but in low level content you get a problem, less effective without utility

 

4) 100% Energy costs? You have just broke flow, it also means you can't use more than one ability at a time, energy crisis, etc

 

5) Immune to Leaders and Heavies? Then what's the point if you kill all the trash mobs, in higher levels its not one hit kill anyways

 

6) Cool downs limit game play. You would be always saving to use it at the right moment, play the wait game for cd and move on

 

There's too much problems with your suggestions, its not a diversity of fun abilities, its a straight on nerf, we had this cool down in closed beta I believe? and there was tons of complaints and waiting, that's why it was removed in OBT ~

1. I didn't say remove all AOE skills. Learn to read. Rhino stomp isn't terrible actually. It's stasis has some utility in the late game. I'm just saying as they are now they only work in the early game. If you buff them then they become faceroll skills for end game content. Use your imagination, I'm asking to improve them, not nerf or buff them particularly.

 

2. I'm not asking for a range cap on everything. I'm not asking for a range cap of 10m. Heck 30m might be fine. It would vary from skill to skill and many skills can be capless. It's just an idea. I'm not advocating all these ideas used at the same time. 

 

3. % damage is fine, especially if you can use the skill multiple times in a row. Also if it's based on max hp and not current hp. Don't state things that are factually false. End game content scaling is important, and early game content you can roll your face through. Heck you can MIX FLAT DAMAGE AND % DAMAGE so you have early game face-rolling AND late-game scaling!!!! 

 

4. I did not break flow. I broke flow on ONLY THE SKILLS THIS WOULD APPLY TO. I did not say make EVERY ULT 100% energy cost. It's an IDEA that can be used on SOME ults where it is FUN and BALANCED. Also, some frames have useful non ult abilities. Flow's only purpose it not just for ultimates. It doesn't even have to be 100%, it could be 70% 50% whatever. Stretch your freaking imagination.

 

5. It's just an idea. You could have leaders that are only immune to CERTAIN skills. Frost leaders could be immune to stasis/freeze. Etc. Having threats that you can't wipe away with a single button is good at times.

 

6. Cooldowns are not bad, bad cooldowns are bad, and cooldowns on everything is bad. And what if you could mod the cooldown time? HMMM?! I'm not advocating cooldowns on every ult, in fact non of them need it as they are atm except for blessing, or blessing should just only work on allies close to you. To say that cooldowns are absolutely always wrong is a silly idea. I think having a couple kill everything in an AOE ults on cooldown wouldnt be horrible at all. The cooldown time can be tweaked until it's fun but not broken.

 

And no, I'm not talking straight on nerf, so stop being illiterate. Everytime I suggest a limiter, cooldown, energy cost, etc. I also think that the ability should be buffed to end-game viability.

Edited February 13, 2014 by adoomgod

[modded]

I agree that ults need more utility. However, your suggestions are way too extreme IMHO. Most ults in my opinion should do 2 things: 1) Kill off light enemies. 2) Have some sort of utility so the ult is useful against heavies.

 

Let's get a list:

 

Trinity: Perfect as is, extreme support, and no damage.

Rhino: The damage is good, it's lower than average but it kills grunts. The stasis is what makes it good on higher levels, great utility.

Nova: It does no direct damage, but has 2 debuffs and enemies explode on death. Again, the explosions only kills grunts at higher levels, while the debuffs make it very useful against enemies (side note, only reason it becomes a must is that nothing else slows as well + sonar's marks tend to disappear).

Banshee: Good damage + stagger lock + push back. Only problem with this ult is that the caster is immobilized for the duration of the power. Needs to be able to cast and move.

Oberon: Knocks down enemies, this one isn't that great against heavies, but the ability to restore tons of HP makes up for that weakness somewhat.

Zepher: Insane range, modifiable damage AND CC? Amazing power.

Vauban: Trades AoE for roadblock, typically less effective in my book unless combines with Sonic Boom or Pull. But it does immobilize all enemies affected by it. Good power, would be better if we had more opportunities to synergize with it.

Loki: Reverts all enemies close enough to melee combat. A very useful power in defense, the only reason it needs any tweaks is that killing>debuffing.

Volt: An devastating power that unfortunately is best when not used in the same room twice, so it often can never be used to its full potential (such as high-wave defense). Needs more utility.

Ember: Needs more utility to be useful against heavies, currently is AMAZING against grunts, trades AoE range for duration, perfect trade-off.

Nyx: Needs a TON of Aggro and the option to end early, otherwise your team will kill off the entire enemy force before it does damage. Utility should be added in some way.

Mag: Stuns enemies for a short time, needs to disable heavies in some way to be more effective.

Excalibur: Should ragdoll enemies not killed by it. Would make it more useful.

Frost: Good steps in the right direction, but I feel Vortex/Sound Quake/Rhino Stomp would be better in most circumstances.

Ash: Too buggy atm, needs more utility against heavies.

Nekros: Can be amazing, can be terrible. Needs to just spawn heavies, then perfect combo of damage and distraction.

Saryn: Ult stuns and does TONS of damage, should stay that way, Saryn's Ult is the almost pure damage one.

Valkyr: Ult mows through enemies, with invuln. The invuln would make for great utility, except that you're forced to kill, you can't just run.

 

The biggest discrepancy here is range and amounts of utility. These need do be somewhat standardized. 10m used to be standard for lethal Ults, then Banshee kinda changed that. Rhino and Volt's tweak bumped them to 20m, hinting that that maybe should be the standard.

 

TL;DR: More Ults need utility. Range should be standardized for Ults, for example 20m for lethal, 25 for semi-lethal (Molecular Prime), 30 for non-lethal (Radial Disarm).

 

 

EDIT: EDIT: Edit turned into separate post.

Edited February 13, 2014 by modded

[PJMcKay]

Dear DE, please ignore the imbeciles who failed to read my thread through. There are a lot of good ideas in it, and nowhere did I say nerf everything. I even said to buff some abilities. I'd love to see some ultimate that could destroy tons of units level 50+, but it shouldn't be spammable.

 

 

Dear DE... Please ignore the imbecile saying he had good ideas.

 

 

I AM NOT ADVOCATING NERFING EVERYTHING. I AM NOT EVEN ADVOCATING NERFING ANYTHING NECESSARILY.

 

Yes.  Yes you are (Hint, see your post and your next reply): (Double hint - NERF)

 

Replacing an AOE ult that does no damage to level 50 mobs with something that adds damage to the whole teams arsenal of guns for a long period of time is hardly a nerf.  

 

Rightttt.  Because when you solo, you truly need to buff up your team.  Seriously... Any thought process kicking in here?

 

 

I also didn't advocate putting a cooldown on everything. Just on skills that last an enormous amount of time or skills that can instantly kill everything level 50+/ in the end game.

 

Please provide the details of any buff that kills everything 50+ in game....  <still waiting>

 

I love skills. I love caster frames. I'm just advocating removing press 4 to win on most frames and creating a better diversity of play. If you aren't willing to read the thread please don't comment.

 

To win what?  And you want better diversity of play by making the frames and gear more the same as each other?  Interesting idea <insert WTF look here>

 

 

This means you PJM and you Tr1ples. If you don't like something don't use it is invalid. The ideas that players need to artificially challenge themselves is stupid. There should be challenging content at the end of the game. Secondly, again I think most of these skills need a BUFF and a cooldown or 100% energy cost. That way they'll be viable in the end game.

 

The idea that making everything the same is brilliant.  We need more people like you on the mission to Mars.  Have you signed up?  Again, you talk of things you know nothing about.  What is this end game you speak of?  Running M Prime with a team and barely making it out alive?  Running a defense mission on wave 5 and 2 out of 4 dead while the other two throw sticks at the ancients?

 

Seriously, write your ideas on paper... Use crayons, markers, glitter.... Then hang them on your wall until you can see the hidden object in them.

 

[OptimumBow0]

Rhino would become a laughing stock. His ultimate is fine, and in high-level content, people on use it for the stun, so why bother taking away the damage it deals? He also already has a team buff ability (Roar), so why does he need two!? He's a tank!

 

Excalibur wouldn't even be able to kill a level 1 sawman with a current % damage. Even if that sawman had 2 HP.

 

"You casted Radial Javelin! It did 50% damage equal to its current health! 1 HP damage was dealt!"

 

That's the problem with making too many abilities dependent on percentages; you'll never kill anything. Ever. Might as well take away ultimate abilities altogether since the whiplash from such an implementation would rock the universe.

 

Ultimates that just buff everything don't give too much variety either; each frame is unique, I don't want to choose one just because it gives me a massively situational buff; that's like making a choice between Warm Coat and Flame Repellent. I will definitely go pick something that actually harms enemies in some way over a weapon buff any day, That's why we have Volt's Electric Shield, Loki's + Ash's Invisibility, Excalibur's Radial Blind, Rhino's Roar, Valkyr's Warcry, and any others that I missed. 

 

TL; DR: Please, no, too much nerf/extreme-ness. 

[adoomgod]

I agree that ults need more utility. However, your suggestions are way too extreme IMHO. Most ults in my opinion should do 2 things: 1) Kill off light enemies. 2) Have some sort of utility so the ult is useful against heavies.

 

Let's get a list:

 

Trinity: Perfect as is, extreme support, and no damage.

Rhino: The damage is good, it's lower than average but it kills grunts. The stasis is what makes it good on higher levels, great utility.

Nova: It does no direct damage, but has 2 debuffs and enemies explode on death. Again, the explosions only kills grunts at higher levels, while the debuffs make it very useful against enemies (side note, only reason it becomes a must is that nothing else slows as well + sonar's marks tend to disappear).

Banshee: Good damage + stagger lock + push back. Only problem with this ult is that the caster is immobilized for the duration of the power. Needs to be able to cast and move.

Oberon: Knocks down enemies, this one isn't that great against heavies, but the ability to restore tons of HP makes up for that weakness somewhat.

Zepher: Insane range, modifiable damage AND CC? Amazing power.

Vauban: Trades AoE for roadblock, typically less effective in my book unless combines with Sonic Boom or Pull. But it does immobilize all enemies affected by it. Good power, would be better if we had more opportunities to synergize with it.

Loki: Reverts all enemies close enough to melee combat. A very useful power in defense, the only reason it needs any tweaks is that killing>debuffing.

Volt: An devastating power that unfortunately is best when not used in the same room twice, so it often can never be used to its full potential (such as high-wave defense). Needs more utility.

Ember: Needs more utility to be useful against heavies, currently is AMAZING against grunts, trades AoE range for duration, perfect trade-off.

Nyx: Needs a TON of Aggro and the option to end early, otherwise your team will kill off the entire enemy force before it does damage. Utility should be added in some way.

Mag: Stuns enemies for a short time, needs to disable heavies in some way to be more effective.

Excalibur: Should ragdoll enemies not killed by it. Would make it more useful.

Frost: Good steps in the right direction, but I feel Vortex/Sound Quake/Rhino Stomp would be better in most circumstances.

Ash: Too buggy atm, needs more utility against heavies.

Nekros: Can be amazing, can be terrible. Needs to just spawn heavies, then perfect combo of damage and distraction.

Saryn: Ult stuns and does TONS of damage, should stay that way, Saryn's Ult is the almost pure damage one.

Valkyr: Ult mows through enemies, with invuln. The invuln would make for great utility, except that you're forced to kill, you can't just run.

 

The biggest discrepancy here is range and amounts of utility. These need do be somewhat standardized. 10m used to be standard for lethal Ults, then Banshee kinda changed that. Rhino and Volt's tweak bumped them to 20m, hinting that that maybe should be the standard.

 

TL;DR: More Ults need utility. Range should be standardized for Ults, for example 20m for lethal, 25 for semi-lethal (Molecular Prime), 30 for non-lethal (Radial Disarm).

 

Thank you for being reasonable. I am SURE some of my ideas are too extreme because i pulled the numbers out of my ***. They are just place holders that would have to be tested, wherever an idea is too extreme you can just lower the extremeness by tweaking numbers. Don't want immune mobs? how about ability RESISTANT mobs. etc. 

 

Trinity is not perfect as is. She is literally press 4 win. I mean i love it because it's so broken. But all it'd take to make her fair without crushing her is adding range to her ult. It could be a lot of range even. Rhino is OK as is, I agree, but could be better. I'd like stasis'd enemies to take more damage or SOMETHING. Oberon isn't that great, the hp isnt that useful if you're dying before you can reach it. I'd like to see some %hp scaling added to his flat damage. Vauban is pretty fine but there is opportunity for cooler stuff as you said. Loki is pretty fine too, but i'd love some group invis added to his disarm. Volt, I agree, needs improvement. Ember needs better damage scaling, % damage mixed with flat damage is applicable here. Nyx was a big disappointment for me, it's damage shouldn't be reduced by enemy armor and then it'd probably be close to fine. Saryn's pretty much fine but some utility added in wouldn't hurt. I like valkyr's ult.

 

Thank you for agreeing with the range point, though I'm not sure the numbers you used should be standardized, but it is definitely a start.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

again no, and like I said before this nerf stuff is a COD BF4 cult. Hell no.

[modded]

1. AoE's are flat out extremely useful. Do we have too many, maybe, but most frames aren't supportive, and shouldn't have buffs. Besides, several of the newest frames don't have AoEs, think Vauban, Valkyr, and Zepher.

 

2. No to the range cap, then why the hell would anyone bother maxing Over extended. Only reason power efficiency had to be capped because 5 energy ults would trivialize much of the game. Oh and 1 energy Sonic Boom/Pull for the lulz.

 

3. % damage combined with flat damage *should* be a good solution, albeit of bit tricky as eventually % powers will long out-scale everything else in the game (the reverse is the current problem).

 

4. There are somethings % should never be applied to, and draining energy is one of them. It goes against everything you know in the game, and it means that the power gets WORSE as you level your frame (and energy max goes up).

 

5. They already have powers, I think that's enough. Now for mini-bosses, I could get behind that.

 

6. This is going against your own logic, in making powers % based but removing the ability to spam them. This will also unnecessarily punish players who save their energy for those "OH SH!T" moments, like when all your teammates die to lasers in Void Defense and you can't ult spam to buy enough time to save your team. Cooldowns are terrible in general because you get scared that you'll use it too soon and dig your own grave.

[modded]

Thank you for being reasonable. I am SURE some of my ideas are too extreme because i pulled the numbers out of my ***. They are just place holders that would have to be tested, wherever an idea is too extreme you can just lower the extremeness by tweaking numbers. Don't want immune mobs? how about ability RESISTANT mobs. etc. 

 

Trinity is not perfect as is. She is literally press 4 win. I mean i love it because it's so broken. But all it'd take to make her fair without crushing her is adding range to her ult. It could be a lot of range even. Rhino is OK as is, I agree, but could be better. I'd like stasis'd enemies to take more damage or SOMETHING. Oberon isn't that great, the hp isnt that useful if you're dying before you can reach it. I'd like to see some %hp scaling added to his flat damage. Vauban is pretty fine but there is opportunity for cooler stuff as you said. Loki is pretty fine too, but i'd love some group invis added to his disarm. Volt, I agree, needs improvement. Ember needs better damage scaling, % damage mixed with flat damage is applicable here. Nyx was a big disappointment for me, it's damage shouldn't be reduced by enemy armor and then it'd probably be close to fine. Saryn's pretty much fine but some utility added in wouldn't hurt. I like valkyr's ult.

 

Thank you for agreeing with the range point, though I'm not sure the numbers you used should be standardized, but it is definitely a start.

I shoulda put a disclaimer in there, I wasn't talking about the effectiveness of Ults in practice, just in theory. Oberon's ult IS crap.

 

And I have to smack down group invis. If you don't do it right it'll be cheaper for 4 loki's to tag team infinite invis (don't forget energy management will be significantly better in that case), and could get pretty broken. I believe that Loki's all should fall under his tricks category, not his stealth. He's not a support frame.

[adoomgod]

PJM I'm going to ignore all your future posts because you really can't read. List 1 ability that kills everything level 50+. Yes there are none, but i already said that. What you've failed to understand is that the things you perceive as nerfs, I only advocate applying AFTER BUFFS. First, skills should be scaled so that they can dish good damage out in the end game 50+ content. Then some controls should be put in place. 

 

Secondly I'm not advocating using all of the things listed at once or even at all. Some may be thrown out, some may be used. I'm not advocating make all skills the same. It's ok to have massive aoe damage as long as it's not too absurd. I wish skills scaled better into late game. I want buffs on a lot of things but you're too nerf-afraid to see that.

 

I'm advocating making all ultimates viable in late-game content but not broken. If you don't like how extreme some of my numbers are, get over it. they are just place holders that can be lowered or raised as seen fit to make them fun.

 

Also you're daft because when i suggested a skill that buffs up your team, that includes yourself so yeah, in solo runs it'd work too. Not satisfied? They can program the skill to be 2 or 3 times more powerful when used in a solo run so that it becomes a diluted team buff or a very strong self buff. Tada.

 

Despite your ignorance and insulting nature, the fact of the matter is this: I want warframe to be as fun as possible. We may disagree on how to get there but I want GOOD things for warframe. If none of my ideas are used I am not going to be hurt. So long as warframe is going in a direction that the vast majority of players enjoy, I'm happy. So when you come here with your dismissive disrespectful attitude, forgive me for thinking less of you. 

 

Let me summarize for you: First. Make a diversity of skills that add utility or scale damage wise into the late game. Second, choose from the following limitiers: Energy cost, range caps, cooldowns, duration. 

Edited February 13, 2014 by adoomgod

[SkyIRaine]

1. I didn't say remove all AOE skills. Learn to read. Rhino stomp isn't terrible actually. It's stasis has some utility in the late game. I'm just saying as they are now they only work in the early game. If you buff them then they become faceroll skills for end game content. Use your imagination, I'm asking to improve them, not nerf or buff them particularly.

 

2. I'm not asking for a range cap on everything. I'm not asking for a range cap of 10m. Heck 30m might be fine. It would vary from skill to skill and many skills can be capless. It's just an idea. I'm not advocating all these ideas used at the same time. 

 

3. Flat damage is fine, especially if you can use the skill multiple times in a row. Don't state things that are factually false. End game content scaling is important, and early game content you can roll your face through. Heck you can MIX FLAT DAMAGE AND % DAMAGE so you have early game face-rolling AND late-game scaling!!!!

 

4. I did not break flow. I broke flow on ONLY THE SKILLS THIS WOULD APPLY TO. I did not say make EVERY ULT 100% energy cost. It's an IDEA that can be used on SOME ults where it is FUN and BALANCED. Also, some frames have useful non ult abilities. Flow's only purpose it not just for ultimates. It doesn't even have to be 100%, it could be 70% 50% whatever. Stretch your freaking imagination.

 

5. It's just an idea. You could have leaders that are only immune to CERTAIN skills. Frost leaders could be immune to stasis/freeze. Etc. Having threats that you can't wipe away with a single button is good at times.

 

6. Cooldowns are not bad, bad cooldowns are bad, and cooldowns on everything is bad. And what if you could mod the cooldown time? HMMM?! I'm not advocating cooldowns on every ult, in fact non of them need it as they are atm except for blessing, or blessing should just only work on allies close to you. To say that cooldowns are absolutely always wrong is a silly idea. I think having a couple kill everything in an AOE ults on cooldown wouldnt be horrible at all. The cooldown time can be tweaked until it's fun but not broken.

 

And no, I'm not talking straight on nerf, so stop being illiterate. Everytime I suggest a limiter, cooldown, energy cost, etc. I also think that the ability should be buffed to end-game viability.

 

1) Removing the Aoe off of the frames that you think should needs tweaking, but please reducing range is a nerf no matter how you look at it

Compensating with Utility is good, but then everything is just the same, in different animations and color, that's your variety

 

2) Most Abilities are already 25m maxed, so let's toss stretch and overextended in the trash because why even use it?

 

3) I like mixing it, that's a great idea, but with cool down idea, your guns fall off after a certain level, if you abilities can't make up for it, long cooldowns don't help no matter how great the utility is

 

4) There is no balance, Since you said "NOT ALL" so here a few frames would use 100% energy some over here use 100 energy, then where do all the efficiency mods go? Even if it applies to both, 25% energy over 25 energy how would you call it even, when its clearly not

 

5) As of now Abilities fall off hard in higher levels (50+), plus even if you get that high, your freezing skills that don't freeze, why would you even use it? If you can't stop them, they are going to stop you, end of story

 

6) Cool downs are unnecessary because some abilities already block you from reusing when its already active "Power in Use"

This already prevent spamming for some frames, but if your not satisfied implement it to the ones that needs that tweak

 

TL; DR: The only times you would need to spam the ability is end game, and when you spam it means its not a press 4 to win.

And please don't suggest half an idea, if you can't come up with a full solution, then think about more before posting

Your saying which content needs balancing, but leaving DE or even us to imagine it, That's an incomplete conclusion

There's a limit to creativity with utility, there's only so much you can do before you repeat the same ideas, with a different animation

You can't ignore the stuff you don't want to hear, and like the stuff that fits your logic

In reality, we are a community and its not run by one person, its the majority, even if its not perfect

Edited February 13, 2014 by SkyIRaine

[XenosInfinity]

It is most definitely a bug. The damage occurs when the animation ends if you have default or less than default range. It is only with increased range that the damage is delayed, thereby leaving the enemies frozen.

And yet it's far more useful with said bug than it would be without it. If they don't call it a feature and leave it that way, I'm going to be extremely disappointed.

[adoomgod]

1. AoE's are flat out extremely useful. Do we have too many, maybe, but most frames aren't supportive, and shouldn't have buffs. Besides, several of the newest frames don't have AoEs, think Vauban, Valkyr, and Zepher.

 

2. No to the range cap, then why the hell would anyone bother maxing Over extended. Only reason power efficiency had to be capped because 5 energy ults would trivialize much of the game. Oh and 1 energy Sonic Boom/Pull for the lulz.

 

3. % damage combined with flat damage *should* be a good solution, albeit of bit tricky as eventually % powers will long out-scale everything else in the game (the reverse is the current problem).

 

4. There are somethings % should never be applied to, and draining energy is one of them. It goes against everything you know in the game, and it means that the power gets WORSE as you level your frame (and energy max goes up).

 

5. They already have powers, I think that's enough. Now for mini-bosses, I could get behind that.

 

6. This is going against your own logic, in making powers % based but removing the ability to spam them. This will also unnecessarily punish players who save their energy for those "OH SH!T" moments, like when all your teammates die to lasers in Void Defense and you can't ult spam to buy enough time to save your team. Cooldowns are terrible in general because you get scared that you'll use it too soon and dig your own grave.

 

Holy crap, people don't read. When I say put in range caps where applicable, that means, NOT ON EVERYTHING.

 

1. I love all 3 of those frames.

2. Why would people max overextended? Because some ults would not have the range cap! So for some frames you put on max overextended and others you put on a half-maxxed overextended.

3. It's tricky but not unfeasible. And as long as the % isn't too high you'd have energy problems trying to spam it. I think it's one of the better ideas listed here too but ofc it'd need testing and balancing. As for weapons, well you simply need to add better weapons or limit enemy damage reduction at higher levels.

4. It's not that bad, you are exaggerating because AGAIN, I'm not saying to apply it to everything. If you don't just start slapping it onto abilities and instead try to design an ability around the idea that it's going to use a % of your energy then it's not broken. It doesn't break anything. In fact it adds diversity because you might want to design a LOW ENERGY frame if it has some % energy costs so that energy orbs are very effective on it. And if it's only applied to 1/4 abilities on a frame, then flow still works for the other 3. So used properly it can be very interesting, i never said put it on everything. Some frames could have no % energy costs, one frame could have all % energy costs. It's worth looking at.

5. Yeah, I forgot to bring it up but a new enemy type of mini-bosses would be cool. Bosses and mini-bosses should be immune or at least resistant to certain effects.

6. This is not going against my own logic. I didn't say make all powers % based. Why aren't people understanding I'm giving EITHER OR concepts, not use all these ideas at the same time? Some abilities % based, some abilities not. Some frames have more % based, some frames have less or none. If the cooldowns are moddable or not too hefty then it'd work. And you're sort of making a bad joke here because as is Warframe is completely easy. That whole waiting for the "oh-S#&amp;&#036;" moment is a bad joke. It happens so rarely if you're playing smart. And AGAIN, these ideas don't need to be used together. There is a place in the world for cooldowns, i think they should be very niche though. I'd probably be ok with them on maybe 1/10th of frames or 1/20th of abilities. And they should be moddable. There could be a flat cooldown reduction mod to make an ability spammable and a %cooldown reduction mod to help with long cooldown abilities.

 

@modded, I didn't say that loki should be able to perma-invis teammates, it could be a lot shorter and non-spammable. It's just an idea.

[modded]

Holy crap, people don't read. When I say put in range caps where applicable, that means, NOT ON EVERYTHING.

 

1. I love all 3 of those frames.

2. Why would people max overextended? Because some ults would not have the range cap! So for some frames you put on max overextended and others you put on a half-maxxed overextended.

3. It's tricky but not unfeasible. And as long as the % isn't too high you'd have energy problems trying to spam it. I think it's one of the better ideas listed here too but ofc it'd need testing and balancing. As for weapons, well you simply need to add better weapons or limit enemy damage reduction at higher levels.

4. It's not that bad, you are exaggerating because AGAIN, I'm not saying to apply it to everything. If you don't just start slapping it onto abilities and instead try to design an ability around the idea that it's going to use a % of your energy then it's not broken. It doesn't break anything. In fact it adds diversity because you might want to design a LOW ENERGY frame if it has some % energy costs so that energy orbs are very effective on it. And if it's only applied to 1/4 abilities on a frame, then flow still works for the other 3. So used properly it can be very interesting, i never said put it on everything. Some frames could have no % energy costs, one frame could have all % energy costs. It's worth looking at.

5. Yeah, I forgot to bring it up but a new enemy type of mini-bosses would be cool. Bosses and mini-bosses should be immune or at least resistant to certain effects.

6. This is not going against my own logic. I didn't say make all powers % based. Why aren't people understanding I'm giving EITHER OR concepts, not use all these ideas at the same time? Some abilities % based, some abilities not. Some frames have more % based, some frames have less or none. If the cooldowns are moddable or not too hefty then it'd work. And you're sort of making a bad joke here because as is Warframe is completely easy. That whole waiting for the "oh-S#&$" moment is a bad joke. It happens so rarely if you're playing smart. And AGAIN, these ideas don't need to be used together. There is a place in the world for cooldowns, i think they should be very niche though. I'd probably be ok with them on maybe 1/10th of frames or 1/20th of abilities. And they should be moddable. There could be a flat cooldown reduction mod to make an ability spammable and a %cooldown reduction mod to help with long cooldown abilities.

 

@modded, I didn't say that loki should be able to perma-invis teammates, it could be a lot shorter and non-spammable. It's just an idea.

I never said that you wanted to put them on everything. Sidenote: Because I gave negative feedback, you extrapolated and assumed I meant something that I did not.

 

Now let me explain: The reason I am against such things aside from what I posted is CONSISTENCY. Without consistency, the game will start to unravel. Why is this capped when nothing else is? Potato.

 

Good imagination: Unconventional ideas that fit within the currently established mechanics. Example (the 4th power in there isn't a great example, everything else is): https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/172800-new-warframe-idea-corrupted-frame/#entry2027048 

 

Bad imagination: Adding conflicting ideas that make the game less consistent, and clash with each other. % energy drain won't work because flow would then be good for 3 powers and terrible for one, making builds LESS diverse by making powers unwanted.

[SkyIRaine]

What your advocating here is a huge change to the people who are use to how it is now, innovation is ok, but...

DE won't change anything unless there's a good portion of the community who agrees with your logic

This topic has became an argument already, not a feedback forum

There will always be more than 2 sides, no matter what your talking about 

Honestly now we are just tossing our opinions, there's no right or wrong answer to this

Edited February 13, 2014 by SkyIRaine

[adoomgod]

1) Removing the Aoe off of the frames that you think should needs tweaking, but please reducing range is a nerf no matter how you look at it

Compensating with Utility is good, but then everything is just the same, in different animations and color, that's your variety

 

2) Most Abilities are already 25m maxed, so let's toss stretch and overextended in the trash because why even use it?

 

3) I like mixing it, that's a great idea, but with cool down idea, your guns fall off after a certain level, if you abilities can't make up for it, long cooldowns don't help no matter how great the utility is

 

4) There is no balance, Since you said "NOT ALL" so here a few frames would use 100% energy some over here use 100 energy, then where do all the efficiency mods go? Even if it applies to both, 25% energy over 25 energy how would you call it even, when its clearly not

 

5) As of now Abilities fall off hard in higher levels (50+), plus even if you get that high, your freezing skills that don't freeze, why would you even use it? If you can't stop them, they are going to stop you, end of story

 

6) Cool downs are unnecessary because some abilities already block you from reusing when its already active "Power in Use"

This already prevent spamming for some frames, but if your not satisfied implement it to the ones that needs that tweak

 

TL; DR: The only times you would need to spam the ability is end game, and when you spam it means its not a press 4 to win.

And please don't suggest half an idea, if you can't come up with a full solution, then think about more before posting

Your saying which content needs balancing, but leaving DE or even us to imagine it, That's an incomplete conclusion

There's a limit to creativity with utility, there's only so much you can do before you repeat the same ideas, with a different animation

You can't ignore the stuff you don't want to hear, and like the stuff that fits your logic

In reality, we are a community and its not run by one person, its the majority, even if its not perfect

Please don't put 2 of my ideas together and make it sound like that's the only way I said to use them. Each of my ideas listed in the original thread are separate from each other. Some of them go well together, some do not. You can have some apply to some skills and others apply to others.

1. Range cap is a nerf I only advocate after buffs. The only thing that needs a range nerf is trinity's blessing. I only brought up range capping as an idea to be used after you create skills that can one shot level 50+ creatures.

2. It's like nobody reads. I DIDNT SAY RANGE CAP EVERYTHING. I'm trying to create a diversity of frames. Some abilities would be balanced so that they have long range use and no range cap. Some abilities would be more potent but have a range cap. You don't throw away stretch and OE because some frames would still use them, others would not. Want another side of the idea? Instead of a range cap, a FIXED range. Which means the range can't be increased or decreased. That would make narrow minded very effective on them.

3. Long cooldowns, short cooldowns, whatever works. Im not saying put a cooldown on everything. Im not saying put a cooldown on every ult. It's only where applicable. I pulled the numbers i used out of my ***, they can be lowered. Whatever makes for balanced play. Ideally there are some caster frames, some gun frames, some sword frames, and some mixture frames. Cooldowns would not work on all of these.

4. There is balance. Say you make an ability that cost 25% of your energy but it's very good. On that frame you will be hungry for energy orbs and want to keep your energy low so you wouldn't use flow. And it could be moddable. Further more if an ability uses high % energy, IT WOULD BE MORE POWERFUL THAN FLAT ENERGY SKILLS TO COMPENSATE! Derp, balance. 

5. You really like to use a broad brush to argue instead of logical statements? A freezing skill that doesn't freeze. I said make some mobs immune OR resistant. SOME, not all. So you'd still be freezing 90% of mobs. And how about resistance instead of immunity if you can't take the idea at all. Freezes for a % less of the time. There should be things that are a threat to us. So don't say to me, freezing skill that doesn't freeze. It would always freeze a vast majority of enemies, and not freeze or freeze less others. Heck you could limit the immune to freeze types to 1 faction. etc. It'd still do damage though.

6. Moddable cooldowns can be used on skills made to be balanced with cooldowns. For every limiter there should also be increased innate strength utility. That's how you balance. A skill with low range should have have more power/duration whatever. A skill with high power should have less range,spam or, and i said OR, more cost.

 

TLDR, try being more polite. A full solution? are you inept? I'd need to have access to their engine and editor to do that. It'd take a lot of time of implementing these ideas and TWEAKING the numbers to see which work and which don't, where to apply and where not to imply. I'm not leaving you or DE to imagine it. I already created a tons of implementable features that they can test on their test-engine. Asking me to come up with the exact numbers to make it work is silly. This isn't half an idea. It's a lot of fully thought out ideas to be picked from. They are just IDEAS that could be used and if you think there is no good in the stuff I listed I think you have a very limited imagination. Math is beautiful in that all you have to do is tweak some numbers to make highly different outcomes. These ideas could be very fun if used properly.