Soma's Future

[Ameretat]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Davoodoo]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Depending on how you perceive "broken"

I perceive as broken everything that can do more dps(and having less disadvantages) than supra simply due to fact that last harder than before content was released in u8(voids), we havent yet received any harder content since then but we got corrupted mods, numerous buffs to dmg(mainly dmg2.0) and many excesively powerful weapons.

[.Talia.]

Holy Crap. Soma Prime.

Take my money.

[LazyKnight]

For you first point, it doesn't matter how much 1 person uses the weapon, while it isn't as accurate as the latron it has absurd accuracy for its fire rate and damge.

 

I said that so people do not assume I am some soma fanboy that needs the weapons to do whatever.

 

Why change weapons that there isn't a problem with when you can change the one that there is a problem with? Even moving the soma to clan tech would help, but by taking the naive mentality that you can buff everything to OP status you would ruin the game.

 

I didn't say I would bring them up to Soma level, most of the weapons just need a critical hit or status effect adjustment(it is a neglected aspect of 2.0).

 

You're putting words in my mouth, and assuming I want everything OP, it couldn't be farther from the truth. I want the weapons to fit the game and to scale with the mods system appropriately, so there would be an even growth curve as people expanded their mod collection.

 

 

Depending on how you perceive "broken"

I perceive as broken everything that can do more dps(and having less disadvantages) than supra simply due to fact that last harder than before content was released in u8(voids), we havent yet received any harder content since then but we got corrupted mods, numerous buffs to dmg(mainly dmg2.0) and many excesively powerful weapons.

Supra is a load of crap; It has never been good and has always been a wrothless boondoggle, that is inherently worse than any rank locked shotgun.

Edited February 13, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Davoodoo]

Supra is a load of crap. It has never been good and has always been a wrothless boondoggle, that is inherently worse than any rank locked shotgun.

Only rank locked shotgun back then was hek and it was nerfed in u8 if i remember well.

Supra was actually a proper sidegrade to gorgon, and that again was before "tiered" weapon system was even announced

[immolator1001]

I didn't say I would bring them up to Soma level, most of the weapons just need a critical hit or status effect adjustment(it is a neglected aspect of 2.0).

 

You're putting words in my mouth, and assuming I want everything OP, it couldn't be farther from the truth. I want the weapons to fit the game and to scale with the mods system appropriately, so there would be an even growth curve as people expanded their mod collection.

 

 

The way I understood your post was that the soma is a great example of what a good weapon should be like and that would be a baseline and oher weapons would be brought closer to the level of the soma.

 

Even assuming the soma is still the best non-prime or clan tech that is a pretty hefty increase for most weapons and would make the game too easy.

 

 

Even if that isn't what you meant the soma is still way too powerful compared to enemies (not other guns) for the amount of effort to get it (fairly little next to comparable guns).

Edited February 13, 2014 by immolator1001

[LazyKnight]

Only rank locked shotgun back then was hek and it was nerfed in u8 if i remember well.

Supra was actually a proper sidegrade to gorgon, and that again was before "tiered" weapon system was even announced

When Sobek was released it rendered the entire point of Supra null and void. Also, there was never a point in making a Supra when a despair or Acrid could do the job with a far greater efficiency. I can't remember the exact date that those 3 weapons were released, but any perceived notion that supra was desirable was for at most a period of a week.

 

It was always an illusion that Supra was a side-grade to anything. Gorgon was hardcore nerfed and it was rare to see anyone use one in damage 1.0. Supra was only possibly a side-grade to Braton during U8, and this was because of what they did to Gorgon.

 

Edit: Kunai was released in the U8 patch as well, https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/49101-update-8-rise-of-the-warlords/

Edited February 13, 2014 by LazyKnight

[.Talia.]

Why are you guys comparing Supra to a Sobek, in a Soma thread?

[LazyKnight]

Why are you guys comparing Supra to a Sobek, in a Soma thread?

People keep bring up this false notion that there was ever a side-grade model when Supra was in game. It is a false recollection of events that Supra was the flag-ship or baseline weapon in game.

[Methanoid]

soma doesnt have any weak points, most weapons have at least 1 garbage or crippling stat, its an accurate, fast, damaging hitscan weapon its got no bad points at all, even equiping heavy cal just makes it way better and its still useable up to medium range np.

 

name any other powerful automatic rifle that has no drawbacks like the soma and that also has build requirements that are laughably easy to get.  (mind you id probably include grakata as being stupidly too good for what it is)

 

This is why u get so much soma hatred, its too good and too cheap compared to anything else near it, clan tech or market.

[LazyKnight]

name any other powerful automatic rifle that has no drawbacks like the soma and that also has build requirements that are laughably easy to get.  (mind you id probably include grakata as being stupidly too good for what it is)

Soma one real flaw is negated by that exploitive reload trick, and it should be fixed so it is no longer possible to shorten reload by canceling.

Edited February 13, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Davoodoo]

When Sobek was released it rendered the entire point of Supra null and void. Also, there was never a point in making a Supra when a despair or Acrid could do the job with a far greater efficiency. I can't remember the exact date that those 3 weapons were released, but any perceived notion that supra was desirable was for at most a period of a week.

 

It was always an illusion that Supra was a side-grade to anything. Gorgon was hardcore nerfed and it was rare to see anyone use one in damage 1.0. Supra was only possibly a side-grade to Braton during U8, and this was because of what they did to Gorgon.

 

Edit: Kunai was released in the U8 patch as well, https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/49101-update-8-rise-of-the-warlords/

Gorgon then was before accuracy nerf, both guns had same accuracy spool up time crit chance and crit dmg clip size and reload speed

Gorgon had 20 dmg but was hitscan, Supra had 35 dmg with travel time. even then supra was considered superior cause numbers blind everyone

Braton had 16 dmg back then and less rof. grogon was better in every aspect except reload time and accuracy at extreme ranges, in u6 gorgon and hek were 2 most op things, in u7 new mod system pushed gorgon back but it was still at edge of being op. in u8 we got kunais which were considered op back then due to them being ai, supra still did more dmg even against lvl 120 enemies but had more drawbacks than kunais, acird dot at beginning wasnt scaling with dmg mods and was considered complete crap.

So yeah standard loadout back then consisted of supra/gorgon, despairs/kunais, scindo/fragor. After that we started getting more powerful guns, namely sobek, vastos, twin gremlins, hind(not so popular but far outclassed burston). Next was u10 which added few op guns like soma,vectis, synapse which are mostly considered op to this day.

So after history lesson, powercreep in game with 0 hard content started in u9 after 4 updates we havent got anything harder than voids yet we got twice as powerful weapons as these back in u8 and pls dont try to tell me that these guns magically changed into feather dispensers, all thats changed is mentallity of community, im laughing hard everytime when i hear that you need soma to beat end game.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Davoodoo

[ALDO]

Why go through so much trouble and resources to make weapons that are sub-par, hard-to-obtain, and multiple-part blueprints, when one can just buy a Soma/Soma Blueprint through the Market?

 

My stand is that Soma doesn't warrant a nerf or buff, but rather its method of acquisition should be addressed. The recent buffs to Latron Prime are "needed" since one cannot simply purchase a Latron Prime, not even with platinum. This brings Latron Prime to being the top DPS rifle, surpassing Soma to some extent.

 

The Synapse should be tweaked to output higher dps than the Soma, due to it being ridiculously hard to obtain, requiring a lot of time (research days), resources (pre-requisite research and Formas for room construction), and also requiring mastery rank 6 (like the Soma) to use.

 

Those two would cover Tower content and Clan content.

 

I understand that the Soma could have been made the way it is as DE had to address players who do not play Towers (Latron Prime) nor wish to start/join a Clan.(Synapse) and still want a weapon that can compete against higher tiers.

 

Looking at it from a technical point of view, the three weapons are of almost similar DPS. Latron Prime is more towards mid-long range, Synapses short-mid range, and then you have Soma, a weapon that covers all ranges with superb accuracy. But when you compare their acquisition methods, Soma is undoubtedly the easiest to obtain.

 

All in all, Soma's specs are good the way it is now, it just needs to have a new home.

[LazyKnight]

-Snipe-

Please use "enter" after paragraphs, it makes it look less like a brick.

 

 

So after history lesson, powercreep in game with 0 hard content started in u9 after 4 updates we havent got anything harder than voids yet we got twice as powerful weapons as these back in u8 and pls dont try to tell me that these guns magically changed into feather dispensers, all thats changed is mentallity of community, im laughing hard everytime when i hear that you need soma to beat end game.

At least spell check please, and do not use the word "you," when describing group mentally.

 

Try to at least source things, HEK and gorgon were both nerfed in the U7 balance patch. I can't even take your post seriously with the amount of wrong going on within it.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/17356-update-7x-weapon-balance-notes/

Edited February 13, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Zyrusticae]

There are two things I have major issues with in this thread.

 

The first is this mentality that exceptionally large gradients in power are acceptable as long as the more powerful weapons are gated away. I will argue that this is utter bullS#&$, that every weapon should have its place in the game and that most weapons should be SIDEGRADES and not UPGRADES, else you end up with piles and piles of obsoleted weapons when everyone has the hottest and most powerful S#&$ (which is pretty much exactly where we're at now).

 

The second is the mentality that buffing everything instead of nerfing a few outliers is the preferable way to go. Sure, that feels good, at least for the players whose weapons are buffed, but what happens when they just buff the enemies again, effectively nerfing ALL weapons AND all damaging warframe powers simultaneously? 

It wouldn't make a difference how many generic weapons I had to balance, ten or fifty it would only take a day or two. The only complex weapons that would take any time to balance are ones like Torid and Mitter because they would take time to play test to see how they behave with modification.

 

Again, it wouldn't be hard to balance a lot of weapons at once; If DE gave me their spread sheet, anything that has straight forward damage can be easily modified and have the out-come of the adjustment known in advance, and with little margin of error for mod interaction that can be caused by oversight.

 

There are not that many unique weapons in this game; Comparing WF to games such as 'Armored Core' this game would be a feather weight to balance or adjust because that game had a lot more technical information for all stats. People keep making it sound like it takes some high and mighty act to adjust a bunch of weapons, it really doesn't take that much effort.

This post is cute.

 

Sure, it's easy to edit the spreadsheet. The question is... why don't they do it? 

[LazyKnight]

This post is cute.

 

Sure, it's easy to edit the spreadsheet. The question is... why don't they do it? 

They haven't fixed melee in months, the only valid reason is they did not have time or do not know how to. It is also clear they did not play test many weapons before adding them in game; There is no way on earth that Brakk would have passed 5 minutes of play-testing or by even doing a simple damage calculation.

 

Your remark about this post being cute, would have far more weight if it wasn't for the amount of things that they released without any play testing or theorycrafting. They had to rebalance Sobek a few times because it was too weak to even be useable on a level 1 NPC.

 

 

The second is the mentality that buffing everything instead of nerfing a few outliers is the preferable way to go. Sure, that feels good, at least for the players whose weapons are buffed, but what happens when they just buff the enemies again, effectively nerfing ALL weapons AND all damaging warframe powers simultaneously? 

There is only one weapon that shines too bright, and that is Brakk. As Its raw DPS is far too high and it's due in no small fault of giving it too high of a fire-rate coupled with excessive damage per-hit. Brakk can miss half of its shots and still be safe 1st or 2nd place on raw DPS.

 

Weapons like Karak and Gorgon, along with a bunch of others, have a status chance that needs a review. There shouldn't be a such a large difference in the usefulness between the mid tier and upper tier weapons.

Edited February 13, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Hyunsai]

Soma one real flaw is negated by that exploitive reload trick, and it should be fixed so it is no longer possible to shorten reload by canceling.

 

Quoted for truth. And even the 3 seconds base is very good compared to 4.2 s of the Gorgon.

[Zyrusticae]

They haven't fixed melee in months, the only valid reason is they did not have time or do not know how to. It is also clear they did not play test many weapons before adding them in game; There is no way on earth that Brakk would have passed 5 minutes of play-testing with a catalysts and mods or by even doing a simple damage calculation.

 

Your remark about this post being cute, would have far more weight if it wasn't for the amount of things that they released without any play testing or theorycrafting. They had to rebalance Sobek a few times because it was too weak to even be useable on a level 1 NPC.

 

There is only one weapon that shines to bright, and that is Brakk. As Its raw DPS is far too high and it's due in no small fault of giving it too high of a fire-rate with too much damage per-hit. Brakk can miss half of its shots and still be safe 1st or 2nd place on raw DPS.

Point being that the ease or not of making the changes in the first place is entirely irrelevant when the question is whether or not they have the competency or the wherewithal to implement the changes to begin with.

 

I am bemused that it took them THIS long to buff bows in the first place. How hard was it to do that? I can't imagine it was very difficult at all, but it still took them forever to do it. And yeah, the Brakk STILL hasn't been properly nerfed - all the falloff change did was force close engagement ranges, which doesn't change the fact that it outputs more damage than anything else within that range. 

 

That being said, I will forever posit that a 200% damage variance between weak weapons and strong ones is far too high. Even the strongest weapons should never be more than 50% more powerful than the weakest ones. It just isn't right. So much wasted dev time on weapons that nobody will ever use. 

[LazyKnight]

That being said, I will forever posit that a 200% damage variance between weak weapons and strong ones is far too high. Even the strongest weapons should never be more than 50% more powerful than the weakest ones. It just isn't right. So much wasted dev time on weapons that nobody will ever use. 

A 25-30% variance, is more than enough motivation for people to spend 100 hours of grinding. MMO in general proved people will spend months trying to get as little as 2% stat improvement.

[Davoodoo]

Try to at least source things, HEK and gorgon were both nerfed in the U7 balance patch. I can't even take your post seriously with the amount of wrong going on within it.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/17356-update-7x-weapon-balance-notes/

True i was wrong with both gorgon 25(after nerf 24) and braton 16(after buff 17) dmg and accuracy nerf(happened in 7.9.0 while close to u8 is not u8).

 

Yet i still remember what ppl used prior to and during u8 and except "everything is bad with snipetron", kunais, hek sniping capability, later acrid with its scaling dot and ofc scaling armor/ai weapons no one was really complaining about gun balance and ppl were still able to clear everything.

 

Fact is that most balance issues were created by community themselves, constantly wanting new guns, if they were not AI/AP they were immidiately dumped even if they had higher stats than previous ones, constant calling for buffs even when weapons didnt need them, opposing all nerfing even while deserved, all of this leads us to game where difference in power between weakest and strongest gun is colossal(might be even 600% atm). At the same time most feedback from testers is "dont nerf new gun" "new gun is more powerful than previous one pls buff it".

 

So yeah i still think that we dont need steady increase in power until we get harder content which will actually need this increase.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Koloricsi]

Why does the solution always have to be a nerf of the strong one?

 

When the more sensible option would be: BUFF THE WEAK!

 

Yes that needed caps.

Then please think about reasonable buff to 90% of the current weapons, because yes, about 90% of them is useless compared to the current mainstream weapons (soma, ogris and these sort of stuff)

[Paradoxbomb]

I wouldn't mind if they made this Clan Tech, after all we do have a Tenno lab now, and the best weapon in the game should be one of the hardest to get.

 

Plus then they don't have to touch it's stats and the fanboys can rejoice.

[drunkpunk222]

soma gtfo, wep for NOOBS!

[LazyKnight]

So yeah i still think that we dont need steady increase in power until we get harder content which will actually need this increase.

DE's staff affirmation that, "Endless defense is not endgame," will hopefully stabilize longer term balance concerns.

 

I should just make my own topic about this, but most of the weapon's current problems are caused by the progression curve.

They made the mods system progression curve start shallow, and than steeply raise after the 5 or 6th mods is used. They have a problematic issue of how do they make the weapon useable without mods, and while growing at an acceptable level during heavy modification.

 

My ideal fix, would require removing the base damage mods (impact, puncture, and slash) and making the serration/hornet card only function of increasing the weapon's core stats; and removing serration/hornet strikes interaction with any other damage mod other than multi shot. This would make the curve less steep, and it would make the increase in power of a weapon more predictable. This would dramatically lower the top-end growth of weapons allowing DE to have a much easier time introduce a weapons that doesn't have unexpected mod interactions.

 

It would be easier to achieve balance if top-end growth didn't scale so dramatically, but it would still require refinement of base stats of weapons by nerfing/buffing to get that idealized balance. Also, it would allow DE to have an easier time balancing NPC strength relative to players.

 

In case anyone misunderstands me: This is why a Brakk's current base DPS goes from around 430 DPS, to 30.7k DPS when modded. A Brakk that is fully modded has around 70x times the raw DPS of a unmodded Brakk, and that amount of growth makes even 1 or 2 base DPS points a big deal.

Edited February 13, 2014 by LazyKnight

[ggtks]

To all soma haters let me say this..The some is FINE!.its a nice well made wepon with its ups n downs like any other wepon.

People allways complaining about something...IF you dont like soma DONT USE IT but dont try to ruin other players games or wepons simply becuz you have to be butthurt about something,,,if soma gets nerfed you'll just find somehting else to be butthurt about....

 

SOMA is fine..dont like it?  THEN DONT USE IT!