Digital Extremes Could Deliver So Much More

[VegetableBasket]

Don't even talk about Path of Exile, it's been in development for over 8 years, it's very simple (technically and aesthetically), and the main source of its quality is in its design and mechanics. Warframe could definitely learn a thing or two from GGG and what they're doing, but ultimately I think if you cut down DE to their 30-50 most crucial team members and let them code up a game for eight years you'd get a crazy amazing product. The thing about the examples you've given is that they're mostly things that have been worked on for over 3 or more years, when Warframe has only been in development for 2. Will you still think Warframe is lackluster a year from now? What if all the big issues happen to get fixed by then?

Though a bigger team can do more than a small one, more people means more overhead. There is more arguing, management, passing things between teams, etc. A large focused team with a clear plan can steamroll through a project, but sometimes it actually means moving more slowly to keep everyone on the same page. Not all 200 employees even do anything which affects the game, some of them are just business people, customer support, QA testers, etc, and I don't know how many employees actually do work on the game between DE and the other groups mentioned, but it's worth considering. DE is also self publishing Warframe and it is a live game which introduces a ton of issues which make it apples to oranges when looking at Skyrim, Witcher, etc. which don't get weekly patches in the first place. They also released as completed games, not as betas.

But I generally agree that weapon of the week isn't the best thing for the game. The weapon team is doing a great job lately and the new weapons are generally interesting, though...

I guess I'm not sure what you realistically expect, though. What would your ideal weekly update include? Redoing old weapons? Would anything really make you use the afuris again besides just checking it out? I dunno. I'd like to see much of the core redesigned so that it is interesting and timeless (Like Path of Exile is now...), but I can't expect that on a weekly basis.

Edited February 21, 2014 by VegetableBasket

[Lowsodium]

So, are we unable to compare FTP to FTP games now? Or do we have to compare psuedo MMO, scfi, "space ninja", TPS's to psuedo MMO, scfi, "space ninja", TPS's?

 

And here's the thing, WF is likened to Diablo in the fact you run "dungeon" instances for loot, and while it's not perfect, it's hard to get a perfect match like you seem to expect.

 

I would compare it more to Monster Hunter. Since it operates around a system where there is a bunch of common items that you can farm farily reliably, then a few rare items you need to make the gear.

 

Only major differen being that farming those rare items is just tedious. In Monster Hunter, the fights are epic, require preparation, and skill. In this game you can easily exploit or one shot just about every boss. So the bosses are just slightly trumped up mooks.

 

I would like to see the bosses become a fair bit harded, and no, I don't mean scaled up.

[DSMK2]

Lowsodium, on 21 Feb 2014 - 4:00 PM, said:

I would compare it more to Monster Hunter. Since it operates around a system where there is a bunch of common items that you can farm farily reliably, then a few rare items you need to make the gear.

Only major differen being that farming those rare items is just tedious. In Monster Hunter, the fights are epic, require preparation, and skill. In this game you can easily exploit or one shot just about every boss. So the bosses are just slightly trumped up mooks.

I would like to see the bosses become a fair bit harded, and no, I don't mean scaled up.

Would be nice if DE really sat down and designed a boss; powerful and durable enough to be a challenge, yet mortal enough to die like the rest of us. Back in MH, you could overpower one of the many Wvyerns with the right tactics/skill; but on the other side they can outlast attacks enough to stomp you.

But, there's a problem with scale; there you're fighting large dragons. Here you're fighting targets of equivalent size to a Tenno; how do you make boss fights against "human" sized targets as detailed as what is seen in Monster Hunter?

From observation, it seems like most boss fights in other games with "human" sized targets involve the boss making use of a setting (gun turrets, map doodads), or making use of a tool (vehicles, mook spams), having themselves fighting players near the end of the boss fight...

---

On topic (I think): I'm pretty sure the distinction comes from the fact DE is working on an online game that is already in the market; and that they're not as experienced working with the medium. Right now it feels like they're trying to iron out Warframe as a continuous content platform first...

Edited February 21, 2014 by DSMK2

[Cpl_Facehugger]

You NEED to buy slots to get more gear. This is rediculous. I have never seen a game do something like this in my entire life.

You don't play many F2P games then, do you? Because most every game I can think of involves limited slots you can pay to expand. Even some P2P games like The Secret World do.

[Nod_Off]

I just want to put this out there, as someone who has been playing for over a year. There are still so many things missing that were promised over 6 months ago, i.e. physical clan vaults, etc, that have been passed over for more weapons.

 

DE, we can only enjoy grinding for weapons and frames for so long before we become bored to tears and leave. This is why the core group of 50+ gamers I played with in closed beta are long gone. 

 

It is sad really, I had such high hopes for the game that I invest over $300. But I have been sorely disappointed. 

[FrissonSeeker]

You don't play many F2P games then, do you? Because most every game I can think of involves limited slots you can pay to expand. Even some P2P games like The Secret World do.

Yeah, that doesn't excuse DE from using such a terrible system. There are plenty of F2P alternatives that don't rely on poor F2P choices. DE should be held to a higher standard not just to make a  "minimum viable product". Because the latter seems to be a fairly common attitude on this forum.

[Lowsodium]

Would be nice if DE really sat down and designed a boss; powerful and durable enough to be a challenge, yet mortal enough to die like the rest of us. Back in MH, you could overpower one of the many Wvyerns with the right tactics/skill; but on the other side they can outlast attacks enough to stomp you.

But, there's a problem with scale; there you're fighting large dragons. Here you're fighting targets of equivalent size to a Tenno; how do you make boss fights against "human" sized targets as detailed as what is seen in Monster Hunter?

From observation, it seems like most boss fights in other games with "human" sized targets involve the boss making use of a setting (gun turrets, map doodads), or making use of a tool (vehicles, mook spams), having themselves fighting players near the end of the boss fight...

---

On topic (I think): I'm pretty sure the distinction comes from the fact DE is working on an online game that is already in the market; and that they're not as experienced working with the medium. Right now it feels like they're trying to iron out Warframe as a continuous content platform first...

 

Well, for human sized targets. We do have a melee system that has been almost entierly ignored. Maybe if they made things like blocking and parying to put bosses off balance for some heavy damage. Hell, you could add that to mooks as well, a propper parry could set an enemy up for a 1 shot kill. As for big monsters, Infected and Robots. As for using the environment, as it is, the parkour system is little more than a gimmick. There is always a way around the parkour tilesets. The only way it has been implemented into the game is the Master Rank stuff.

 

I guess I'm not sure what you realistically expect, though. What would your ideal weekly update include? Redoing old weapons? Would anything really make you use the afuris again besides just checking it out? I dunno. I'd like to see much of the core redesigned so that it is interesting and timeless (Like Path of Exile is now...), but I can't expect that on a weekly basis.

 

Why does there need to be a weekly update at all right now? The game says it is in beta, they should release things when they are ready to be released. It's starting to feel like they are just releasing weapons so that people will buy them, and for no other reason. Especially when you consider the fact that clan tech is on the market. Not to mention the events. These are the kinds of things that should be saved for when the game is officially released. But for a soft release game like this is now, that will cause most of the players to just think, "Ohh, this again?"

 

The number of weapons in this game, is starting to get a bit rediculious. Especially with what I said before, you need to buy inventory slots or delete an item before you can even try that weapon.

[FrissonSeeker]

I just want to put this out there, as someone who has been playing for over a year. There are still so many things missing that were promised over 6 months ago, i.e. physical clan vaults, etc, that have been passed over for more weapons.

 

DE, we can only enjoy grinding for weapons and frames for so long before we become bored to tears and leave. This is why the core group of 50+ gamers I played with in closed beta are long gone. 

 

It is sad really, I had such high hopes for the game that I invest over $300. But I have been sorely disappointed. 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlsyEla_uEOUdERwRURQYnA2cDRUZnVDTlUtOW4tV2c&usp=drive_web#gid=0

You mean these "promises".

 

I've attempted in the past to point out that these things have been "passed over for more weapons".

But than you get the DE apologist response of "well different people do different things" and "DE has only so many employees"

This thread was supposed to be in anticipation of that argument but people would continue arguing over semantics than look at the message.

DE has no excuse for releasing such poor content.

Edited February 21, 2014 by FrissonSeeker

[JerryMouse13]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlsyEla_uEOUdERwRURQYnA2cDRUZnVDTlUtOW4tV2c&usp=drive_web#gid=0

You mean these "promises".

 

I've attempted in the past to point out that these things have been "passed over for more weapons".

But than you get the DE apologist response of "well different people do different things" and "DE has only so many employees"

This thread was supposed to be in anticipation of that argument but people would continue arguing over semantics than look at the message.

DE has no excuse for releasing such poor content.

 

And you have no basis to be making an assertion on what the minimal quality content that they should be producing is.

 

Even if you did it begs the follow up question, what do you think we can do to change it?

 

Because from where I'm sitting we have no standing with which to influence the internal workings of DE, which renders this a non-issue. You'd be better off going into the feed back forums, and focusing on something there because we actually have influence there.

[Ventura_Highway]

I actually read the article about Metro. That was actually quite awe-inspiring. 4A games can thank you for getting me to purchase

Metro.

 

Anyways, my train of thought culminates in this

 

You are more likely than not, overwhelmingly right in what you say, and I can't really think of any counterpoint aside from the fact

that there are some less-efficient developers than DE, one that comes to mind being Firefall under Mark Kern.

 

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/20/rumor-mark-kern-removed-as-ceo-of-red-5-studios/

 

I'd like to assume there's no reason to have to point out why he was removed, but he was, and still,

"It could always be worse." Is really not an amazing argument against your facts, but yes, are these

developers you mentioned, are they not the extraordinary, are they not above the standard?

 

Perhaps it would be nice if we could work towards finding some standard for rate of development for a video game.

 

Nevertheless, I can say that I do agree that from the information on hand, DE could go at this with a faster pace, but

I think instead of egging them on like a slave driver, telling them to go FASTER AND FASTER, I will do what I normally

do with an MMO.

 

I have left, and I will remain in that state until some sufficient content is put in place. No money from me will come to DE,

that badge on my avatar should indicate they've had their fair share, and it is likely that even when I do come back, It probably won't

involve any spending of cash, unless I would think the game merits it, and since I would have left the game in the first place, that's unlikely.

 

This shall be the course of action I recommend. But I can't tell anyone what to do.

 

 

EDIT: Damn me and my lack of information.

Edited February 21, 2014 by RocketRider

[FrissonSeeker]

And you have no basis to be making an assertion on what the minimal quality content that they should be producing is.

My basis is customer satisfaction.

 

You know there is an entire multibillion dollar media industry backed by a smaller critic industry that does this exact thing you said I have no basis for? It's called the Video Game Industry and the critic industry is Game Reviewing. People have standards that they hold games up too. Maybe you just don't have standards like the rest of us.

Edited February 21, 2014 by FrissonSeeker

[Tankred]

And you have no basis to be making an assertion on what the minimal quality content that they should be producing is.

 

Even if you did it begs the follow up question, what do you think we can do to change it?

 

Because from where I'm sitting we have no standing with which to influence the internal workings of DE, which renders this a non-issue. You'd be better off going into the feed back forums, and focusing on something there because we actually have influence there.

Well, as a customer and a 'beta' participant he actually does have a basis. I'm not going to argue this point, there are basic consumer rights that are followed for the betterment of the consumer and the final product, to say otherwise is foolish.

 

And could you please stop trying to end discussion on a topic where people are still actively posting?

[Blowfist]

Offline games and online games do not compare. The fact that 80 people have +1 OP's post clearly shows they have no concept of the time and effort involved in developing online games. As for Path of Exile, when you create a game that looks as though it belongs to the year 2001 you significantly cut back your development time.

 

World Of Warcraft

 

Austin GDC 2009: Frank Pearce explains what it takes to craft 7,650 quests, 70,000 spells, 40,000 NPCs, 1.5 million assets, and 5.5 million lines of code; some 4,000 employees, 13,250 server blades, and 75,000 CPU cores keep MMORPG running.

[JerryMouse13]

My basis is customer satisfaction.

 

I really don't think that you're understanding what I'm saying.

 

You don't have the requisite information, or experience, to be able to objectively state what Digital Extremes should, or should not be producing, or the rate at which it should be producing content.

[FrissonSeeker]

I really don't think that you're understanding what I'm saying.

 

You don't have the requisite information, or experience, to be able to objectively state what Digital Extremes should, or should not be producing, or the rate at which it should be producing content.

I don't think you understand.

I am dissatisfied with how fast DE releases content. End of story.

I don't need information on the matter. Neither do the dozens if not hundred if not thousand(s) of other players.

[FrissonSeeker]

Offline games and online games do not compare. The fact that 80 people have +1 OP's post clearly shows they have no concept of the time and effort involved in developing online games. As for Path of Exile, when you create a game that looks as though it belongs to the year 2001 you significantly cut back your development time.

 

World Of Warcraft

 

Austin GDC 2009: Frank Pearce explains what it takes to craft 7,650 quests, 70,000 spells, 40,000 NPCs, 1.5 million assets, and 5.5 million lines of code; some 4,000 employees, 13,250 server blades, and 75,000 CPU cores keep MMORPG running.

If Warframe was offline, the gameplay experience would be mostly the same. Other than numbers scaling the gameplay of this game doesn't change with the number of people at all. Outside of Dojos, this game could have easily masqueraded as a single player experience.

 

Also, inviting a WoW comparison is more absurd than any of my other comparisons.

Edited February 21, 2014 by FrissonSeeker

[aucran]

I really don't think that you're understanding what I'm saying.

 

You don't have the requisite information, or experience, to be able to objectively state what Digital Extremes should, or should not be producing, or the rate at which it should be producing content.

We know what was done with less people and less money in the same amount of time.

 

Either the pipeline for DE to make changes/updates to the game needs to be streamlined or they are not motivated to push out more than a Weapon a week, and content bi-monthly.

 

I enjoy the game, but compared to what other developers have been able to accomplish with less resources, DE still has a lot of room for improvement. I'm not saying they can't or won't deliver a great finished product Soon, but they must be missing the boat somewhere.

[JerryMouse13]

I don't think you understand.

I am dissatisfied with how fast DE releases content. End of story.

I don't need information on the matter. Neither do the dozens if not hundred if not thousand(s) of other players.

 

Then don't expect anyone to take your argument seriously.

 

If you don't view the rate of content production as satisfactory, then yes you are entitled to that viewpoint, however, that does not automatically mean that it is an objectively true statement.

[Blowfist]

I don't think you understand.

I am dissatisfied with how fast DE releases content. End of story.

I don't need information on the matter. Neither do the dozens if not hundred if not thousand(s) of other players.

You don't need information on the matter but you are willing to use information that you believe supports your view that x number of employees should equal a finished product. Despite the fact you are comparing offline games and old games that never needed to be polished to the standard of Warframe.

We all want real content instead of these weapon releases but DE has assigned x number of people to specialize on certain projects, such as weapons design graphic/coding/art/etc. Which has been mentioned in livestreams when people have complained about content in the past.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Blowfist

[FrissonSeeker]

Then don't expect anyone to take your argument seriously.

 

If you don't view the rate of content production as satisfactory, then yes you are entitled to that viewpoint, however, that does not automatically mean that it is an objectively true statement.

I am dissatisfied with how much content DE releases on a weekly/bi-monthly basis. Many others agree.

^That is an objective statement.

You keep trying to spin this as if the consumer's opinion doesn't matter.

[FrissonSeeker]

 never needed to be polished to the standard of Warframe.

Are you seriously trying to compare the polish of Warframe to multiple critically acclaimed games?

[Tankred]

Then don't expect anyone to take your argument seriously.

 

If you don't view the rate of content production as satisfactory, then yes you are entitled to that viewpoint, however, that does not automatically mean that it is an objectively true statement.

 

You don't need information on the matter but you are willing to use information that you believe supports your view that x number of employees should equal a finished product. Despite the fact you are comparing offline games and old games that never needed to be polished to the standard of Warframe. 

 

We all want real content instead of these weapon releases but DE has assigned x number of people to specialize on certain projects. Which has been mentioned in livestreams when people have complained about content.

You don't need facts to voice an opinion. But a reference point helps to show where you're coming from. Opinions are not facts and they never will be, but there is no reason to disregard what someone is saying because of that. Also, I find it worrying that people conceive Warframe as polished when just yesterday I played with a Nova that glitched everyone into the skybox by just aiming up.

[Blowfist]

I am dissatisfied with how much content DE releases on a weekly/bi-monthly basis. Many others agree.

^That is an objective statement.

You keep trying to spin this as if the consumer's opinion doesn't matter.

 

No he's saying the information your using to support your view by comparison of other game development is not valid.

 

Nobody's saying your opinion nor the consumer's opinion doesn't matter.

[FrissonSeeker]

No he's saying the information your using to support your view by comparison of other game development is not valid.

 

Nobody's saying your opinion nor the consumer's opinion doesn't matter.

Fine, name a single comparable game to Warframe and I will find the number of devs, their budget, and release schedule.

 

All of those games, were easily identifiable and had ample information available. They are a POINT OF REFERENCE. Not to be a literal direct 1-to-1 comparison. I think the majority of readers have already identified this, but I'm getting tired of explaining that and so are other posters.

[JerryMouse13]

I am dissatisfied with how much content DE releases on a weekly/bi-monthly basis. Many others agree.

^That is an objective statement.

You keep trying to spin this as if the consumer's opinion doesn't matter.

 

Yes that is an objective statement, however your opinion is not objective, nor does it encompass the whole of the consumer's opinion.

 

What I'm trying to tell you is that the presentation, and reinforcement of your argument is inherently flawed.

 

You are welcome to your opinion, I embrace your opinion, I will buy your opinion a drink, I will defend to the death your right to have your opinion, but do not try to peddle your opinion as an objective fact using flawed evidence. It is incredibly base, and academically dishonest.