Starter Weapons Seriously Need Buffs

[NikolaiLev]

It's currently pitiful how little damage they do.  Many find that the new player experience is atrocious.  Well, it is, but not because of the lack of a tutorial.  It's because the beginning weapons are terrible.

 

There's just no reason for this.  The notion that "this encourages people to try new weapons" is flawed in so many ways; primarily the fact that most people do in fact enjoy a degree of variety and will try new guns.  Planetside 2 starts you with often one of the best choices, yet do you see their weapon sales faring poorly?  No, people use plenty different weapons (grind notwithstanding).

 

There's no reason for weapons to be sidegrades of each other; there are enough ways to make weapons unique in Warframe.  There is no semi-auto hitscan handgun that isn't a slow-firing handcannon or a low capacity revolver.  The Lato can fill that niche, as well as other potential weapons.

 

The Mk1-Braton is redundant, but it can be made into a unique weapon with some stat adjustments and a new model.  It can be made into a weapon even veterans would want to use and it should be.  Same with the Skana.

 

Credit-buyable weapons are in a similar situation, most notably the Strun.  Its status was at least buffed recently, but its damage and crit pale in comparison to other choices, and none of its other stats are desireable enough to make up for it.

 

All these weapons need to be buffed.  The Skana should be given something unique; more status, more crit, or something, plus some damage to keep it competitive.  The Mk1-Braton, Lato, and Aklato need more damage at the minimum.  If their status % remains low, give them more crit or reload speed to compensate.

 

I want to see starter gear become competent enough to the point where you'd actually want to potato them.  They should be fun to use.  Even in Mercury they're a drag to make use of because of how pitiful their damage is.

[Rynax]

No need to buff the Mk-1, you can buy the Braton dirt cheap off of the market with credits. The Lato functions fine as a secondary. I don't really see a need to buff weapons given to you at the start, they do their job well. They aren't meant to be used late into the game.

[Ninja234War]

Lol...............

 

I suggest this:

MK-1 Braton deals 16 damage, should be buffed to 17...

Also, MK-1 Braton tend to have higher crit damage....

 

Now, Lato.

Seriously a weak weapon. 12 damage...... should be buffed to 15?

Also Lato needs a higher proc chance.

 

Skana.

25 damage, I think it shoudn't be buffed.

Should have higher crit chances, also it needs a higher proc chance.

[VKhaun]

Part of this is power creep, but it's mostly a perception problem because we don't have end game. People think it's normal to just instagib all the enemies and, hopefully, that's not how the devs see it.

[EnForest]

Part of this is power creep, but it's mostly a perception problem because we don't have end game. People think it's normal to just instagib all the enemies and, hopefully, that's not how the devs see it.

 

Enough of power creep BS. DE nerfed Lato with damage 2.0, it used to be 18, I think.

[VKhaun]

Enough of power creep BS. DE nerfed Lato with damage 2.0, it used to be 18, I think.

 

Power creep doesn't mean I'm saying the buffed the gun. I'm saying the overall feeling of how strong a player is supposed to be, relative to the enemies, has increased over time because of buffs to other weapons and the relatively higher strength of most additions.

[Kempeck]

Why?!?!  There is a REASON they're called 'Starter Weapons'.  If you want everyone to start out with an Ignis, Braton, Boar Prime, Paris what would be the point?

[TheThreadWeaver]

I remember back when I started the game last year. Going through the game with the starting setup, I didn't feel too weak. Sure I wasn't dropping enemies like flies, but I was doing some decent damage. I didn't feel really bad about my capabilities until I ran into an end-gamer going through Mars for Mag parts, toting the then-op Sobek. Shortly after, I saw people running around with lightning guns. Which made my trusty little rifle suddenly feel very underwhelming. So part of this is a perception problem, where new players are getting exposed to high level gear so early on that it makes their starting kit look even worse than it is by comparison. Not saying it isn't technically bad - they're possibly the weakest weapons in the game. I'm just saying perhaps psychology plays a part.

 

Since then, a lot has changed. Damage 2.0 rolled out, changing how a lot of enemies take damage and which guns did what kind of damage. The Lato itself is remarkably unsuited to the early areas, doing mostly slash damage if I'm not mistaken. I haven't checked the Mk-1 Braton recently to see its damage spread, but that would mean new players start with two weapons that deal largely slash damage. Which is great against Infested. An enemy type that doesn't have a stable spot in the star chart anymore. Huh. So that's another issue that makes the weapon underwhelming: They do damage, but not the right type of damage for the enemies the new players are going to be facing.

 

So yes, I agree that the weapons are underwhelming. But remember that the main issue, the sensation of weakness, doesn't just stem from weak weapons. It can be sourced from a lack of appropriate mods and resources. It can be caused by having weapons that don't deal the right kind of damage. And it can be caused by prematurely running into people who can kill more enemies than God.

 

EDIT: Just checked, and the Mk-1 Braton also deals largely Slash damage. So the starter set of weapons all lean towards Slash damage. Which is not very helpful against Grineer and Corpus, the first two enemies you are likely to face.

Edited February 23, 2014 by TheThreadWeaver

[VKhaun]

Why?!?!  There is a REASON they're called 'Starter Weapons'.  If you want everyone to start out with an Ignis, Braton, Boar Prime, Paris what would be the point?

 

Because the basic damage pistol/rifle damage mods aren't common drops, so players have to lean on base damage.

 

This is indicative of a larger problem though. I don't think just buffing the MK1, Skana and Lato will fix that properly. We need to chill and let them get around to New Player Experience 2.0 after Melee, Afinity and End Game.

[LazyKnight]

This is indicative of a larger problem though. I don't think just buffing the MK1, Skana and Lato will fix that properly. We need to chill and let them get around to New Player Experience 2.0 after Melee, Afinity and End Game.

DE has known that the new player experience was broken when damage 2.0 was rolled out. This is one of those problem they need to push to #1 on their list, because a bad first impression ruins a game.

Edited February 23, 2014 by LazyKnight

[NikolaiLev]

No need to buff the Mk-1, you can buy the Braton dirt cheap off of the market with credits. The Lato functions fine as a secondary. I don't really see a need to buff weapons given to you at the start, they do their job well. They aren't meant to be used late into the game.

 

So?  Why does the Mk-1 exist at all then?  It's utterly pointless.  They don't do their job well; the time to kill at new game is wildly different from standard times-to-kill at any other tier.

 

And why shouldn't they be usable late game?  Why should there be weapons that exist just to be outmoded later?  DE can do better than that.  Making more weapons last into late game gives us more choices.  There really is no downside.  There are other ways to give the player a sense of progression.

 

Part of this is power creep, but it's mostly a perception problem because we don't have end game. People think it's normal to just instagib all the enemies and, hopefully, that's not how the devs see it.

 

Power creep is an endemic problem in Warframe.  But the power curve is stupidly imbalanced.  The starter weapons don't need to instagib anything, but they should definitely be able to compete with most weapons.

 

Enough of power creep BS. DE nerfed Lato with damage 2.0, it used to be 18, I think.

 

Correct.  It was to make it as powerful as the Mk1, which was just an absurdly incompetent decision.  The Mk1 and Skana should've been buffed up instead.

 

Why?!?!  There is a REASON they're called 'Starter Weapons'.  If you want everyone to start out with an Ignis, Braton, Boar Prime, Paris what would be the point?

 

Because weapons like the Paris and Ignis are different.  They provide unique gameplay.  That's why you choose another weapon.  Players shouldn't be forced to grind materials and credits just to be able to play the game.  Doing so for the sake of variety?  That's fine.

 

Again, the point is to allow players more choice, and to make the new player experience less frustrating by making grind less necessary.

 

Because the basic damage pistol/rifle damage mods aren't common drops, so players have to lean on base damage.

 

This is indicative of a larger problem though. I don't think just buffing the MK1, Skana and Lato will fix that properly. We need to chill and let them get around to New Player Experience 2.0 after Melee, Afinity and End Game.

 

It's not just a problem of base damage mods being harder to get than they should be; even when modded, these weapons are pitiful compared to any other choice, and there's no reason for that to be the case.

 

And there's no reason to wait, either.  This is a problem that's pretty cut and dry.  The starter weapons are artificially weak to force new players to grind to get better weapons.  It can be done better.

 

DE has known that the new player experience was broken when damage 2.0 was rolled out. This is one of those problem they need to push to #1 on their list, because a bad first impression ruins a game.

 

Indeed.  There are two pressing issues with the game: the new player experience, which is made horrible by the useless starting gear (among other things), and endgame, which they at least know about.  But they're not doing much to fix either one.

 

This is a simple fix that can alleviate the new player experience and introduce some more choices into the arsenal for late game players.

[VKhaun]

The starter weapons don't need to instagib anything, but they should definitely be able to compete with most weapons.

 

Why? They're starter weapons.

[Neutralred]

The starter weapons are shameful and atrocious. Their worst sin is that they feel bad to use, and they make the player feel like they're bad at the game.

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

Last week, I started a brand new account. Rank 0 only, no trading, no buying new weapons. Just an Excalibur with the starting weapons. I did buy a potato right off the bat for my Mk1 and Excalibur, which of course no newbie would do, mainly because they'd have no idea what the hell a potato is.

 

I've come to realize more than ever that the issue isn't necessarily the Mk1 being weak. With the basic elemental mods + Serration, the Mk1 alone has managed to take me very far. I can easily do T2 exterminates, and once I got Shred I did a T2 25 wave defense quite easily while pulling ahead with 49% damage (yeah that's sad for the other 3 guys). I can go into T3 exterminates and comfortably kill everything that isn't a Heavy Gunner (still trying to figure those out lmao). I can do invasion missions on Neptune and Eris pretty comfortably. My gun is not fully modded, my Serration is not close to maxed, my Shred isn't maxed, my Infected Clip still isn't maxed, I have no Heavy Caliber on it (yet). I estimate that my Mk1 in its current state is doing approximately 1/3-1/2 of its maximized potential damage. I have yet to tackle my Lato and Skana, but in theory the Lato should be more powerful than the Mk1, and the Skana... well, that one is a mystery to me, lol.

 

The issue is the mods. While sure, a Mk1 can't hold a candle to a Soma or any other standard late game weapon, that's obvious. But as long as you have the mods, you can go pretty far even with the S#&$tiest weapon in the entire game. Remember, this is a rank 0 account. I have no ability to cheat the system and trade for mods like a maxed Serration. I farmed all the necessary mods I needed (I will admit that a friend helped me out with obtaining Shred, but that is it - I could definitely replace Shred with my Metal Auger which I obtained solo, as I use Shred mainly for the punch through). The main difference between me and a newbie (other than the potato, of course, but in all honesty Serration plus one elemental alone is enough to take a freshly Forma'd Mk1 pretty far and can be put on an regular Mk1, and by that point the player should already be capable of considering new weaponry) is that I know what I'm doing. I know what mods are important, what mods I need to find and max out ASAP. So I gunned directly for those mods when starting, and thanks to some lucky RNG, I got nearly everything I needed pretty early on (I have all my rifle mods, though not all maxed of course or even close, and most of my pistol mods, and all but 2 of my Excalibur mods). And in any case, you're not going to see newbies wielding Mk1s going LF T3 Ext like I'm doing.

 

I do think that the Mk1 could use a small buff. Not a drastic one, but it could definitely use some help. But more importantly, I think newbies need to be given the initial knowledge and mods necessary for putting together a gun that doesn't hit like a pillow. So much of our power comes directly from mods, and newbies aren't given any direction on what to get or how to get it.

[Sebastianx]

Well they did nerf the Lato (Vandal and Prime too which if you ask me SHOULD NOT have been nerfed since newbies don't have access to them), so it's safe to say they just like nerfing stuff randomly for the hell of it.

[letir]

I do think that the Mk1 could use a small buff. Not a drastic one, but it could definitely use some help. But more importantly, I think newbies need to be given the initial knowledge and mods necessary for putting together a gun that doesn't hit like a pillow. So much of our power comes directly from mods, and newbies aren't given any direction on what to get or how to get it.

So much win!

[Amistyrja]

I'd like an explanation regarding the Aklato's nerf

[tsubasakuroi]

Didn't realize starter weapons had to be kicked on the ground.

 

But okay, let's make weak weapons even more garbage than they already are. Gotta emphasize that idea of tiered weaponry and push newbies to buying weapons with plat!

[Monolake]

This game is about mods, give new players guaranteed mods instead of buffing the weapons.  Even if they buff MK1 twice it will still be garbage after 5 waves at Lares or 5 min at Appolo with no way to improve it w/o damage mods that never drop. And you need to do 15 waves for a chance of getting Serration? Catch 22.

You get 25k after beating Vor to buy new weapon, but guess what - its still not good w/o mods.   BTW Hornet Strike drops from ancients and since Infested got banished there is even less chance for noobs to get damage mods.

[Monolake]

For some testing and fun I ran the crappy cheap Strun with only 27 mod points (no forma or potatoe), radiation build 1-shots lvl 30 Elite Lancers  http://i.imgur.com/Otcnvts.jpg  ~4 shots on lvl 30 Bombard - thats top planet - Pluto... but wait, good luck trying to find Charged Shell or Blaze! 

 How are players supposed to make elemental combos when Charged Shell is either rare void or rare drop from rare mob of extinct race - Corpus Tech. Poison is either unobtainable event mod or rare drop from super extremely rare mob - Electric Crawler (you might never see him in 200 hr of game, left alone get a drop from him). Why?  If those are supposedly highend mods, then there should be other mods for low levels. Why not make physical mods actually beneficial instead of mod capacity waste, make them work like Accelerated blast and give same benefits - 15% instead of insignificant 5% per rank.

 

Again: weapons are not the problem, mod rarity and broken RNG is the problem.

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

This game is about mods, give new players guaranteed mods instead of buffing the weapons.  Even if they buff MK1 twice it will still be garbage after 5 waves at Lares or 5 min at Appolo with no way to improve it w/o damage mods that never drop. And you need to do 15 waves for a chance of getting Serration? Catch 22.

You get 25k after beating Vor to buy new weapon, but guess what - its still not good w/o mods.   BTW Hornet Strike drops from ancients and since Infested got banished there is even less chance for noobs to get damage mods.

 

On that note, my rank 0 account has the following (useful) mods available for their respective slots:

 

Warframe - Rejuvenation, Redirection, Stretch, Streamline, Fleeting Expertise, Narrow Minded

Rifles - Serration, Split Chamber, Shred, Heavy Caliber, all 4 elementals, Point Strike, Vital Sense, and a Bane of Grineer

Pistols - Lethal Torrent, Ice Storm, Heated Charge, Pathogen Rounds, Gunslinger, Convulsion

Melee - Fever Strike, Reflex Coil, Fury, Pressure Point, Shocking Touch, North Wind, stuff (don't care that much about melee)

 

On the Rifle front, it's actually pretty good. Honestly pretty good on the Melee front, too. I have gotten -multiple- Stormbringers, which used to be by far the hardest Rifle elemental to get, as well as Fever Strikes. The addition of the forest tiles and re-inclusion of those respective enemies really helped out on this front. The Split Chamber thing was pretty dang lucky, though.

 

On the Pistol front, though... I just feel sad. Hornet Strike is actually really hard to get. Like you say, it's kind of hard to farm for. Need either an infested node, OD, or hope to get lucky in a 20 minute survival, which is a tall steep hill for a newbie player without much in the way of mods or general Warframe knowledge. Hornet Strike needs to drop from a common, basic enemy given how important it is. Maybe Shield Lancers or something (since they use Pistols, not like that really matters).

 

But then again, I know where to farm and why these mods are important. New player, not so much.

Edited February 23, 2014 by omgwtflolbbl

[Monolake]

On that note, my rank 0 account has the following (useful) mods available for their respective slots:

 

Warframe - Rejuvenation, Redirection, Stretch, Streamline, Fleeting Expertise, Narrow Minded

Rifles - Serration, Split Chamber, Shred, Heavy Caliber, all 4 elementals, Point Strike, Vital Sense, and a Bane of Grineer

Pistols - Lethal Torrent, Ice Storm, Heated Charge, Pathogen Rounds, Gunslinger, Convulsion

Melee - Fever Strike, Reflex Coil, Fury, Pressure Point, Shocking Touch, North Wind, stuff (don't care that much about melee)

 

On the Rifle front, it's actually pretty good. Honestly pretty good on the Melee front, too. I have gotten -multiple- Stormbringers, which used to be by far the hardest Rifle elemental to get, as well as Fever Strikes. The addition of the forest tiles and re-inclusion of those respective enemies really helped out on this front. The Split Chamber thing was pretty dang lucky, though.

 

On the Pistol front, though... I just feel sad. Hornet Strike is actually really hard to get. Like you say, it's kind of hard to farm for. Need either an infested node, OD, or hope to get lucky in a 20 minute survival, which is a tall steep hill for a newbie player without much in the way of mods or general Warframe knowledge. Hornet Strike needs to drop from a common, basic enemy given how important it is. Maybe Shield Lancers or something (since they use Pistols, not like that really matters).

 

But then again, I know where to farm and why these mods are important. New player, not so much.

 

Few patches ago they made Ballistas more common so now you get much higher chance of Stormbringer, at least thats an improvement. 

Melee mod - Pressure point - is quite common, Serration is a bad case of RNG, when I first started playing, I havent seen it in 40-50 hrs when I was already past Saturn and did many 15-20 min survivals,  I had to rely on melee and secondary weapon, since I got Hornet Strike and fire mod rather early (I think there were some infested nodes in Venus back then). When I'v been levelling at Mimas I often asked guys with noob gear if they had Serration and they were like 'what is that?'

[NikolaiLev]

Why? They're starter weapons.

 

So?  That shouldn't mean they're bad weapons.

 

Didn't realize starter weapons had to be kicked on the ground.

 

But okay, let's make weak weapons even more garbage than they already are. Gotta emphasize that idea of tiered weaponry and push newbies to buying weapons with plat!

 

Heh, pretty much.  This is something I'm trying to reverse.

 

This game is about mods, give new players guaranteed mods instead of buffing the weapons.  Even if they buff MK1 twice it will still be garbage after 5 waves at Lares or 5 min at Appolo with no way to improve it w/o damage mods that never drop. And you need to do 15 waves for a chance of getting Serration? Catch 22.

You get 25k after beating Vor to buy new weapon, but guess what - its still not good w/o mods.   BTW Hornet Strike drops from ancients and since Infested got banished there is even less chance for noobs to get damage mods.

 

No, if they buffed the Mk1 to be on par with the rest of the weaponry it really would be a valid option.  It's not just about mods, even if that's part of the problem.  Even with newbie mods a Karak or Grakata will do far better than an Mk1 in any situation.

 

I want to see a Warframe where veterans use the starter gear because they present a valid role.  The Mk1 has a desireable accuracy of 40, and given its own model and buffs to become a competent weapon, it could be worthy of a potato.  And then bam, we have a new weapon that could've been there all along.  New players get a better experience and veterans get access to a new choice.  Everybody wins.

[TrashSpider]

I would suggest they switch the high damage on the slash and put it on penetration instead, and for the mastery rank 1 test put Grineer instead, since that another of the complain that comes up. 

[Monolake]

 

No, if they buffed the Mk1 to be on par with the rest of the weaponry it really would be a valid option.  It's not just about mods, even if that's part of the problem.  Even with newbie mods a Karak or Grakata will do far better than an Mk1 in any situation.

 

I want to see a Warframe where veterans use the starter gear because they present a valid role.  The Mk1 has a desireable accuracy of 40, and given its own model and buffs to become a competent weapon, it could be worthy of a potato.  And then bam, we have a new weapon that could've been there all along.  New players get a better experience and veterans get access to a new choice.  Everybody wins.

 

There is no "rest of the weaponry", there are tiers of gear that gets progressively better (for the most part at least). Game absolutely has to have progress, it motivates people to play, especially in such loot-driven games like WF and starter gear shouldn't be viable at high levels. But in WF its far more about mods than weapons: weapons become ~60! times stronger full moded vs unmoded, comparatively MK1 vs top rifles is only ~3 times difference. 

MK1 is adequate for fighting lvl 1-3 enemines, then you easily buy better weapons for low credit cost, but then you run into no mods RNG wall.

 

(Btw I think they upped the neurodes drop on Earth so you can build weapons much easier now)