Tenno Clock, Discussions Of The Community [Youtube] (Ep 89)

[bejuizb]

Again with a lot of the stuff that is coming in U14 we will have to wait and see.

Things will be clear when we can actually look at it. The whole tagline thing is something I put very little stock in.

Ninjas play free, but what about people like me who have pur money into the game, does that make me not a ninja?

It makes you a nonja, yes ;P

 

Seriously though, the taglines and stuff of the sort are just advertising fodder in my eyes. I've been trying to piece together lore inconsistencies ever since U9, and the base lore and behaviours of all the characters and factions is ever dynamic. I don't get the image of constancy whatsoever, but that's just how I see things.

[Xenogelion]

I would have amounted this to the proliferation of the "ME-NOW!" generation that is springing up with the Millenials... only to be shocked and horrified that this attitude is spreading to the older (20-30+ years old) end of the crowd as well. What the hell happened?!

 

This is consumerism all over. Being a 90's kid I've been able to recognise the progression of technology, we used to have 56Kb dial up and now we have 50Mb ADSL. When you planned a journey you had to look up the directions and use a road map, now you have sat nav tell you where you want to go. People used to walk and use public transportation more, now you have on average 4 cars to a house hold. Here's the biggest change, mobile phones use to be solely for phoning and texting people, now they are cameras, sat nav, internet browsers, game consoles, drawing tablets, email clients and are used more frequently for everything but phoning people.

 

With the way technology has evolved to give the user convenience now, our patience for how things are created has vanished. I see this in my own work where teachers ask for our web package to dictate the route in which a teacher directs the classes education, this is against the principle of our package in a huge way but they still keep asking for it and every time we have to say no. All this impatience and wanting something for nothing is why I feel DE shouldn't do the crowd funded development.

 

Ninjas play free, but what about people like me who have pur money into the game, does that make me not a ninja?

 

It makes you a super ninja!

[MDRLOz]

I see you all discussing about the "want it now" attitude, and I see that proxy war and focus system have been thrown up there. 

 

However this is not something they have just announced and we want. These are things that were promised back in January/Feburary, these are things that should have been in development even before that point (e.g. We were all saying endgame was over due back in January).

 

Also to end up with the wow tabbard system is not really an achievement it is a fail. I am sorry but if you are going to do as Blizzard does then go the whole way. When updating WoW Blizzard has always had an eye on the other MMOs that tried to beat it and copied every innovation they tried and blended in to wow. E.g. AoE looting from Rift. So when designing proxy wars they should have started with WoWs reputation system and expanded upon it. Not waste months of development time and come back at the starting point. However I personally am waiting before I decry syndicates openly. I want to see what it offers and how it plays. Maybe it will be better than what we have seen so far. 

 

Presently the only innovation I see in it is that you lose reputation by purchasing stuff. It is interesting but what it really amounts to is that you have to grind the rep back to make another purchase. I know how the community like to complain about grind so this feels an odd addition to the system. 

 

The only possible things they have said (back in feb) that could improve this is when A) Syndicates have an affect at Clan/Alliance level and B) When Syndicates can have an impact into dark sectors (you call in that faction for support). 

Edited October 21, 2014 by MDRLOz

[Xenogelion]

Presently the only invitation I see in it is that you lose reputation by purchasing stuff. It is interesting but what it really amounts to is that you have to grind the rep back to make another purchase. I know how the community like to complain about grind so this feels an odd addition to the system. 

 

OK so I'm going to jump in here as devils advocate once more. Everyone, bar me, has been chomping at the bit for the Focus system for ages; a system which is on par with the paragon system from Diablo 3, a system that is nothing but pure grind just to up some numbers by a fraction of a percent (in Diablo 3). I wouldn't say the community are solely complaining about grinding but in fact the grinding in combination with farming, waiting for those sweet sweet loots.

 

**loads of time passes**

 

I've actually just spent the last little while coming up with this as an alternative system.

[notionphil]

ahhh, this is where all of the WF sages come to discuss meta-matters

[bejuizb]

ahhh, this is where all of the WF sages come to discuss meta-matters

Indeed. Welcome to the fray. Don't have a sage beard, but stubble will have to do.

 

 

EDIT: 4000 posts...I need to get a life.

Edited October 21, 2014 by bejuizb

[notionphil]

 

OK so I'm going to jump in here as devils advocate once more. Everyone, bar me, has been chomping at the bit for the Focus system for ages; a system which is on par with the paragon system from Diablo 3, a system that is nothing but pure grind just to up some numbers by a fraction of a percent (in Diablo 3). I wouldn't say the community are solely complaining about grinding but in fact the grinding in combination with farming, waiting for those sweet sweet loots.

 

**loads of time passes**

 

I've actually just spent the last little while coming up with this as an alternative system.

 

I'll admit that I've been chomping on the bit for Focus for nearly a year now. However, I have somewhat of an alternate take, incorporating elements of skill and customization instead of pure grind and numerical tweaks. I find those elements sorely lacking from WF at the moment.

 

This is a synopsis from my U15 wishlist patch notes:

 

 

New Focus Progression System - create unique frame and weapon builds

 

The endgame progression system, Focus, is finally here! Unlock special variants of Core Mods through skillful play with max rank gear.

• Ever wish your Serration dealt more damage on headshots (but less on body shots?) or your Redirection let you evade better by sliding 50% longer/faster (but provided less shields?) Well, now it can! Exchange Focus points for mod variants of Serration/Hornet/Point Blank/Pressure Point, Multishot mods, Redirection, Vitality. Each variant has a tradeoff from the base mod to suit your chosen playstyle.

   

• Level these mods up with Focus points, not cores (they start equivalent to a rank 8 mod, and can be leveled to a 10 with Focus points). You can only equip one mod from each family (EG: one serration variant) at a time. See the full list of Variants here!

   

• Any Affinity you gain while using max ranked weapons adds to your Focus points. However, your "skill ranking" after a mission determines how many multiples of that Affinity you gain (.5x to 2x)

   

• To increase your skill modifier; defeat enemies with headshots, stealth kills and ground finishers! Parkour over projectiles and roll through explosions! Don't go into bleedout! Jumpkick that Ancient in the face! Complete missions with stealth! Mix melee, power and weapon attacks! Don't constantly rely on repetitive skill combos or constant strong buffs (invis/ironskin/Hall of Mirrors)! Do play in conclave appropriate missions (eg not 1200 conclave on mercury)!

   

• Lotus will verbally congratulate extremely skillful actions (by you or your squadmates) during play!

 

I'm quite curious to see how the Syndicates mod/power mod rewards will be balanced.

 

 

 

Indeed. Welcome to the fray. Don't have a sage beard, but stubble will have to do.

 

 

EDIT: 4000 posts...I need to get a life.

 

Gratz on reaching level 4 Paragon in WF's endgame!

Edited October 21, 2014 by notionphil

[MDRLOz]

OK so I'm going to jump in here as devils advocate once more. Everyone, bar me, has been chomping at the bit for the Focus system for ages; a system which is on par with the paragon system from Diablo 3, a system that is nothing but pure grind just to up some numbers by a fraction of a percent (in Diablo 3). I wouldn't say the community are solely complaining about grinding but in fact the grinding in combination with farming, waiting for those sweet sweet loots.

True but the paragon style system is always forward. Each step is a milestone. In syndicates  (like when formaing) its subtly different. You repeat the same rind with the same numbers going up and down. Its a subtle change but it can make all the difference when motivating players.

 

Take another WoW example, rested exp. In Beta for wow, blizzard (like every mmo developer) was worried about people playing to much (e.g. ever-quest people playing till they died). So they introduced a negative % exp burden after to much play time. The game dropped you to 50% exp to slow you down and make you log off till it restored. Players hated it and demanded it be reworked. What did blizzard do? Turned the reduction into a bonus. By logging off you increased a pool of "bonus" exp that got used up while playing. This gave you 200% exp gain for a period that would drop down to 100% after a short period. Same system, slight tweak on presentation and players loved the new "rested" exp system. 

 

 

So I've been having a discussion with people in another thread about the whole year of end game. 

 

From Xenos other thread: Shameless plug of this thread plus CYCLICAL LINKING... OMSM I am stuck in a link loop. 

 

 

 

ahhh, this is where all of the WF sages come to discuss meta-matters

I often wonder what this thread looks like to someone stepping into it for the first time. If you read it post by post we change topic so often. 

 

 

I'll admit that I've been chomping on the bit for Focus for nearly a year now. However, I have somewhat of an alternate take, incorporating elements of skill and customization instead of pure grind and numerical tweaks. I find those elements sorely lacking from WF at the moment.

 

This is a synopsis from my U15 wishlist patch notes:

 

How did I miss this thread of yours. I must remain glued to your forum profile, refresh the page constantly in case you make a new thread!

 

However that link for the "See the full list of Variants here!"  seems broken in your quote and the thread that quote is from. 

Edited October 21, 2014 by MDRLOz

[Sixty5]

Indeed. Welcome to the fray. Don't have a sage beard, but stubble will have to do.

 

 

EDIT: 4000 posts...I need to get a life.

Ha ha ha, cute :D

Anyways, as much as I have wanted focus, I must agree that it hasn't ever taken any real direction yet.

The exp after level 30 is nice, but that is a mechanic not a system.

We've been told that it takes you to an alternate state where more awesomeness happens, but really that is just powercrepe. Also that does nothing for weapons.

Being able to specialise stats as Phil suggests would be a nice start, but even then it is still about getting stronger and stronger.

The reason we still don't have it is that it started with a mechanic that they want to do something with, rather than as an idea that they build the mechanics for.

Regardless the big question of endgame still exists, "what do you get for a player who has everything?"

[notlamprey]

powercrepe.

 

Seek and ye shall find.

 

 

Somewhat off topic, but this seems like the friendliest place to ask the question: has there been any updated word on the "kubrow adoption" situation, or are we still limited to the unfortunate solution? My tender little heart wants an excuse to enjoy Warframe again.

[Sixty5]

Seek and ye shall find.

 

 

Somewhat off topic, but this seems like the friendliest place to ask the question: has there been any updated word on the "kubrow adoption" situation, or are we still limited to the unfortunate solution? My tender little heart wants an excuse to enjoy Warframe again.

This is powercrepe

As for Kubrows, nothing has changed, except that now you can consign them to the Lotus.

[MDRLOz]

Somewhat off topic, but this seems like the friendliest place to ask the question: has there been any updated word on the "kubrow adoption" situation, or are we still limited to the unfortunate solution? My tender little heart wants an excuse to enjoy Warframe again.

 

There is now a button that asks would you like to "consign" this kubrow to the lotus. Basically let lotus look after this particular fluffball.

It costs 25,000 credits to consign one kubrow to the lotus. After doing this the incubator slot is freed up and you are able to hatch a fresh kubrow in its place.

 

 

Regardless the big question of endgame still exists, "what do you get for a player who has everything?"

Scaled and measured challenges for the use of the skills and equipment they have gained reaching that point.

 

The best example I have seen for this is wow challenge modes dungeons. They have a cap on gear that can be used and scale gear down to that level so everyone is on an equal playing field. They are timed runs of a normal dungeon and reward based on timed completed. The rewards for getting "gold" in all dungeons is cosmetic armour and mounts.

 

This is the kind of thing we need in warframe. A set challenge scaled to crazy difficult *cough* heroic bosses *cough* and the reward should be cosmetic so that it prevents power creep but allows you to show off just how awesome you are.

Edited October 21, 2014 by MDRLOz

[notlamprey]

 now you can consign them to the Lotus.

 

I think I can live with that. I'm totally content to give the Lotus a personal army of battle-hounds.

[Traeyze]

To me the appeal of Focus is the idea of not being 'penalised' for using a maxed frame. Technically running a max frame is inefficient, as that is wasted mastery and I find that frustrating. Focus would alleviate that somewhat and at least make the grinding we are already doing slightly more productive. Admittedly the Paragon system does something similar in a broader sense, so I guess I have no issues with that.

I said it last ep and have said it in the past but I think Kubrows and Archwing were odd places to focus on first, entirely superficial so that they can write lists of gimmicks that you have access to. The actual metagame, like in other systems, is pretty dry and hard to jazz up but the reality is that it is that very meta that keeps people interested, and as we've all said that rebalances are a good way to keep it fresh[ish].

But yeah, the idea of cosmetic rewards being the future seems the way to go. Like a damn CROWN for people who do a T4 on god mode or something, or a dragon ball aura [the recent Prime armor, the one with the glowing parts, was a good proof of concept]. Something you can't trade. Or buy.

As for crowd funding, I concur that it would just further frustrate the members of the community. You add a distinct and literal sense of entitlement to the people who do invest, as opposed to now where the money sort of just.... you know, buys food and coffee or pays the rent or whatever at DE HQ. As it stands anything that comes is a result of general investment and that is good so we keep the spice flowing. They just perhaps have to focus on things people want a little more said every thread ever.

In terms of resource drop rates: for bosses it is definitely showing. I run Ruk when I need a Cell or two and now its getting to five runs for 1. Which still isn't that bad, since a run only takes a couple of minutes and I've done 40 minute Mimas runs and gotten nothing. I don't mind the idea of having higher costs on items, especially the higher tier ones [like in every other material game that doesn't have tiered drops], and I am one of the few people apparently that didn''t mind Oxium grinding for that reason. I remember early in the game I enjoyed grinding the materials for my Rhino and found it odd that as I got higher it got easier instead of pushing the goalposts back. But lowering the drop means you are often repeatedly 'failing', which seriously sucks a lot of fun out of the game.

[Sixty5]

actually I was thinking awhile back about what you could do with excess resources when I came up with the brilliant idea of letting you use them to make armour.

Say 100000 per piece for the common ones (ferrite/alloy/Nanospores) and similarly scaled ones for other materials.

It wouldn't need to be overly fancy, just some armour pieces that look like the resource.

Could be cool

[Xenogelion]

Episode 54 is out and can be found on the first post as if I play my cards right in making this post, here too:

 

 

Additionally I'd like to know who uses chrome and html5 for YouTube? I'm thinking of doing 60fps videos which would be double the file size but if people would enjoy it I'd definitely do it. To check if your web browser does 60FPS you can see these videos: 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Xenogelion

[MDRLOz]

Are we going to have one thumbnail a year? 

 

Also where do you get them from? 

[Sixty5]

I thought the thumbnail changed fairly often...

[Sixty5]

Ok watched it all, now time for feedback

Firstly the whole appearance thing is just silly imo. Its just like genwuners looking at new pokemon and saying they are crap because of complicated designs and things like the ice cream cone or garbage bag.

The older designs are more conservative and simple. The first three pokemon are just turtles in varying forms, and the first frames are generic. Nyx is just a regender of Excal, ember looks like a phoenix fire chicken and discounting ash's arms, he looks like a mannequin.

Spectacle creep is also a thing, hence the pressure to make every new thing bigger and more impressive.

Personally I like to look at the lore side of things in terms of design. For instance, Valkyr looks the way she does because of the experimrntation done to her, her outer armour plates have been removed to show the bits underneath. Banshee has her large helmet to help capture more sound, and the elaborate horns on Nyx's helmets are there to amplify her mental energy.

Limbos hat might be there as a dimensional anchor, a part that will separate and stay in normal space for him to return to.

In all honesty my only real criticism about Limos design is that he looks a bit too much like frost.

As for the wait on archwing I don't really see it as a problem, there is enough new stuff in U15 that you can play other stuff for those 36 hours.

More so even if you are a new mr2 player jumping in 3 months down the line. It's just impatience talking Imo.

As for the excalibur changes, I'm inclined to agree with the fact that there should be a change feedback thread. I won't comment ob the changes themselves until I have given him a go though.

On a side note, I like Slash Dash, slap a blind rage on him and it starts to hit pretty hard, plus it is great for avoiding ground pounds and such.

As for the idles, I'm going to wait for a Darvo deal to buy em. No problems in the meantime since Mirage already has the best one.

[Mattac0n]

That 36-hour build timer for the Odonata actually did put me off at first, but shortly after the shock I realized there's still other things that I could do during that wait time (such as exploring the fantastic new Europa tileset, taking care of Alerts, checking out current/ongoing Invasions, re-levelling Forma'd equipment, upping my Syndicate points, rolling the Prime RNG Lottery, doing Trades, etc).

I honestly don't see any issue with Limbo's aesthetic... (Heck I don't mind the new Pokemon aesthetic despite having been a gen-one player.) Well, my only exception to my view is the very noticeable head/helmet animation issue (Warframe head and neck animations break after you hit the Pause button once/twice during a mission). It seems to stem from how DE jury-rigged the head animations to make Limbo's hat gimmick possible. However, that's a wholly different conversation out of this scope for now.

 

It's possible some  prototype in-mission head tracking snuck in and is causing some issues here.

....Huh.

 

Now that Sixty5 mentioned it, I now think the persistent challenges for Warframe's continuing development will be managing spectacle-creep, power-creep, cosmetic-creep, Market-creep, armory-creep... well, everything-creep, really.

On a lighter note, who here got at least one Day of the Dead skin? :3

Edited October 29, 2014 by Mattac0n

[Xenogelion]

So a little change of pace, to which I'm sorry, but I've been very annoyed to how many hot topics have been springing up with regards to Syndicates. A lot of people are jumping the gun and I'm finding it very annoying. Also the ever increasing impatience of players is getting to me. Anyway I went out of my way to make this 10 min video that basically covers why most of these impatient gamers need to calm down:

 

 

 

 

If you feel the need to post this on some of the flaming threads about Syndicates please go ahead (link http://youtu.be/pWv2LfXNLf0)

 

Bee Tee Dubs, Syndicates are awesome!

 

 

On a lighter note, who here got at least one Day of the Dead skin? :3

 

Maaaaaybe, I bought all of them ^_^.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Xenogelion

[Traeyze]

I feel like the day that the community really comes to appreciate just how liberal the term 'ninja' is treated in this game is the day we solve a lot of discussions on topics like design. With only 1 frame in the game actually resembling a ninja and in reality better demonstrating a Naruto style 'scream your attack name really loud so they see you coming' style Ninja Magic mentality anyway I figure it is pretty much a free for all in terms of designs. 

I think there have been some great designs recently, but mileage may vary on the actual aesthetics. For example: I hate pirates aesthetic, so Hydro fell short for me in that sense, but I felt he was well realised and the design certainly doesn't stick out too much. On the other hand Mirage, particularly with the alt helmet, is one of my favourites in the game just because lol circus clown.

As for Limbo specifically... meh. I don't like top hats or the kind of people who still think they are anything but embarassing so I am hoping there is an interesting alt helmet. Otherwise the design is shrugs, I would concur he just looks like a skinny Frost right now.

 

Archwings as ZOE, no kidding. I am awaiting a weapon that lets me hold to lock on so I can do things properly.

Like the Kubrows I feel the first one should have been free, because yeah, it is a tease and there really doesn't seem to be any function to it. This is especially because I actually like the required grind you face after the build: I had to do like 15 missions to get the parts for the two alt weapons and now I am pretty confident in my playing and have gotten a few of the rare mods etc. For once I feel like I am working towards something and it isn't too easy.

Idles are too much, especially for something so inconsequential. I am tempted to get Mirage or Zephyr wacky stances next time I have some platinum.

After all the interesting stuff I have seen on Excal the changes felt pretty tame, especially since there have been some really interesting rebalances over the last few updates [i say Oberon, Ash and Nyx's were end game changers, etc]. Nothing about the changes made him all that more interesting, but I will acknowledge at least they aren't steps backwards like it initially seemed.

As for Syndicates, yeah. It is great to have something bigger to aim for and frankly the incidental award for doing missions even with max equipment [like T4s etc] is nice. I do feel offerings are a bit steep, especially because the game really is stingy with the potatos and frankly the rewards for the syndicates are hardly game changers, but what can you do.

 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Traeyze

[Xenogelion]

Episode #55:

 

 

So I rendered a 60FPS video and it's still trying to come out as a HD video. I believe YouTube are struggling to cope with the file...

[Mattac0n]

On the Arcwing enemies: I do agree that it's a bit silly that DE re-used existing Corpus models for the space Corpus enemies, but I get why they made up-scaled versions of them for space. The model up-scaling was intentionally done to compensate for the extreme distances (and thus the extreme engagement ranges) that the Arcwing could make- you normally see 100m+ gun engagements in Arcwing. If these space Corpus were sized the same as their ground equivalents, then it would be nigh-impossible for the Warframe to shoot, use Arcwing Abilities on, or Melee them in space.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Mattac0n

[bejuizb]

I don't know if this is appropriate to discuss here, but what do you all think about the Viver situation? I'm sticking firmly by the fact that it's not an exploit, but rather min/maxing and hyperefficiency playing a major role. The reason people are doing this rep grinding is because the rep system itself is to put it simply, a load of S#&$e. Months upon months of grinding to get the few meager contents of ONE syndicate, and double or triple that to begin working towards another. For players like me, who've already spent hundreds of hours grinding for stuff, hiding even more content behind walls designed for newer community members seems to be painful. Someone mentioned that going from 0-> max rank for a syndicate is equivalent to the affinity needed to reach MR14 from unranked. MR14 took me 15 months to accomplish. The grind is stupidly tedious, with no true reward worth all the effort. Most of the people from the looks of it seem ticked off that they are going to lose Platinum making the sale of Syndicate mods.