Nerfing Every Frame

[mike29tw]

Rough translation of OP-

"I want this game to be easy mode, who cares if you take every piece of challenge away from the game, I like seeing big numbers without any effort"

"It takes time to build items, I guess that means they should give godmode and stupidly high damage!"

"I enjoy having incredibly OP things and stroking my ego by playing endgame because it doesn't reward more then the other missions and just serves to waste grinding time"

and the worst part of all of that.

"This is a co-op game and does not require balance"

This post, your past posts, and future posts are now all discredited.

By the way, you literally suggested that infinite scaling endgame was actually something we should balance around, I am done. This post is terrible, and I legitimately hope DE doesn't actually listen to people like this.

EDIT: The majority in this community I find, is almost never right despite the saying of "the consumer is always right". I realize that DE has to be subservient to the consumers/playerbase, but at the same time this playerbase knows nothing about how video games work and instead want this game to turn into an incredibly boring game, where only a select few will play because they can jerk off to the numbers they see on their screen.

 

Pretty much sums up the OP.

 

 

Wow, I wasn't expecting an opportunity to pull this out for quite some time.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NrbeZdVEfHF5b3sE9DNMaPWcgSWncAk1eYe87QSIiOk/

For the record, OP, endless content is not intended be balanced. The devs never expected it. Also, you can't balance both that and the rest of game.

 

Didn't expect to find such a great read on Warframe forum. I suggest everyone go read it if you want to know more about the balance in Warframe.

 

I faceplam'ed when I read the OP, but you two just restored my faith in the forum.

Edited March 2, 2014 by mike29tw

[Vargras]

People thinking balance doesn't matter in a coop game.

 

I'm glad none of you are game designers.

[Dalu__Ka]

A little analogy:

 

I assume you all know the card game solitaire (the card game that comes with every copy of windows)?

Lets make it "OP" and remove the balance.

 

New rule:  players can put hearts and diamonds where ever they want to, and not have the restrictions clubs and clovers have.

 

A red card comes up, and now we don't have to think or worry where to put it, we can just put it anywhere.

This would make the hearts and diamonds "OP". Letting you win every game within minutes.

 

No one was hurt, because there is no real opponent. But why even bother playing the game? Every bit of challenge has been taken out of the game, every game is a guaranteed win, every game will be done in a matter of minutes.

 

This may sound like fun to some, but trust me, no one in their right mind will continue playing that game for longer periods of time.

[WrothBog]

minesweeper would have worked better because you can self nerf it and take all challenge away. you can literally set the rules up so that clicking somewhere in the middle causes you to either win or lose. with a 99% chance of winning.

 

that to me is how the ultimates work in this game. pressing 4 is 99% of the time an I win button, there is  1% chance the animation took too long and you died. but chances are you won

[Bubsters]

Enjoy Easyframe PenTrinity while you can. Hahaha.

[tris1]

i agree with since they nerfed snowglobe down to a just silly useless ability they should nerf/fix all other abilities which can scale to any level then they have balance

[Davoodoo]

The problem is not really with frames themselves but energy system which allows to spam abilities.

Nothing is wrong with having complete immunity for 10 seconds as long as it cant be kept up forever. At current energy system you can cast 16 second group immunity over and over for mere 25 energy, its impossible to run out. Put it on cooldown or rework energy, both things would actually fix it without need to nerfing it.

 

Chaos even at current system have some risks but again due to casting it over and over again might be considered op. Make it more powerful, idk 1st enemies start to fight between themselves, after duration expires weaker enemies(health threshhold or non heavy units) could suicide, switch places with absorb and put a cooldown on it. 1 minute should be enough. Otherwise reworking energy would be another option.

 

I can say this about any ability really. Theres no need to nerf anything really except ability to spam these abilities. Its ok to have extremely powerful abilities as long as they cant be used over and over, if DE reworks power system to prevent spamming its pretty ok to buff most of the powers. Atm though they provide too much power.

[notionphil]

Rough translation of OP-

"I want this game to be easy mode, who cares if you take every piece of challenge away from the game, I like seeing big numbers without any effort"

"It takes time to build items, I guess that means they should give godmode and stupidly high damage!"

"I enjoy having incredibly OP things and stroking my ego by playing endgame because it doesn't reward more then the other missions and just serves to waste grinding time"

and the worst part of all of that.

"This is a co-op game and does not require balance"

This post, your past posts, and future posts are now all discredited.

By the way, you literally suggested that infinite scaling endgame was actually something we should balance around, I am done. This post is terrible, and I legitimately hope DE doesn't actually listen to people like this.

EDIT: The majority in this community I find, is almost never right despite the saying of "the consumer is always right". I realize that DE has to be subservient to the consumers/playerbase, but at the same time this playerbase knows nothing about how video games work and instead want this game to turn into an incredibly boring game, where only a select few will play because they can jerk off to the numbers they see on their screen.

/drops mike

[Darkmoone1]

Judging from the #1 post and #5 post, we seem to have a split in the community on this topic....

[Monolake]

How about discussing game and balance instead of attacking people who discuss the game and balance? 

[-CM-Sean]

How about discussing game and balance instead of attacking people who discuss the game and balance? 

I did a read all my posts in the thread, you will see i talk  about balance and unbalance.

[LukeAura]

EDIT: btw, your love of polls is problematic.  Polls on forums fall prey to selection bias.  Also note that the masses are generally uninformed and are not a reliable source of trustworthy information on what is good and bad game design.

If DE ran the polls themselves and kept them well structured in manner I'm fairly sure they'd go alright.

Well, Nova did happen but I went and checked those polls(I'd definitely recommend all future invitees to the design council to dig through the archives a little), the other options actually didn't look all that good either. M Prime was at least the second best choice of ult. What went wrong with that seems to be more where DE took community choices more so than the community choices themselves. Otherwise the polling looked to be fairly decent selections and rather successful. 

Although I am surprised there was the possibility of giving her multiple blinding skills(CC queen Nova anyone?).

 

[TunaMayo]

If DE ran the polls themselves and kept them well structured in manner I'm fairly sure they'd go alright.

Well, Nova did happen but I went and checked those polls(I'd definitely recommend all future invitees to the design council to dig through the archives a little), the other options actually didn't look all that good either. M Prime was at least the second best choice of ult. What went wrong with that seems to be more where DE took community choices more so than the community choices themselves. Otherwise the polling looked to be fairly decent selections and rather successful. 

Although I am surprised there was the possibility of giving her multiple blinding skills(CC queen Nova anyone?).

I'm the bloke who "came up" with molecular prime.

There were plenty of more inventive choices available, but I guess prime fit the category of "press 4 to blow up".

The reason prime ended up with a slow and damage buff is because people refused to believe that damage would work on its own and whined in the forums.

This led to the power gaining its utility.

In a perfect world the utility would have been spread to another power, so you aren't left with one, extremely potent, spammable power. But that's never how things turn out.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

If DE ran the polls themselves and kept them well structured in manner I'm fairly sure they'd go alright.

Well, Nova did happen but I went and checked those polls(I'd definitely recommend all future invitees to the design council to dig through the archives a little), the other options actually didn't look all that good either. M Prime was at least the second best choice of ult. What went wrong with that seems to be more where DE took community choices more so than the community choices themselves. Otherwise the polling looked to be fairly decent selections and rather successful. 

Although I am surprised there was the possibility of giving her multiple blinding skills(CC queen Nova anyone?).

 

They would be more reliable than player-based ones, yes, but they'd still have issues.

 

And yes, DE has a tendency of yanking one thing they want out of a host of co-dependent systems, breaking that one thing.

[notionphil]

I'm the bloke who "came up" with molecular prime.

 

 

*Grabs pitchfork and torch*

[Cwierz]

*Grabs pitchfork and torch*

Don't be so mean. He said it ended up not what he wanted it to be like :P

[notionphil]

Don't be so mean. He said it ended up not what he wanted it to be like :P

 

"Come out TunaMayo....we just want to talk!"

 

Yes...kidding mostly. I know that design-by-committee is the fastest way to destroy a perfectly good idea.

 

This is why we need player representatives for idea veto, a few of whom would probably come from this thread I'd hope.

[TunaMayo]

"Come out TunaMayo....we just want to talk!"

 

Yes...kidding mostly. I know that design-by-committee is the fastest way to destroy a perfectly good idea.

 

This is why we need player representatives for idea veto, a few of whom would probably come from this thread I'd hope.

 

I aint scared o you phil!

 

Either that or more in depth communication when it comes to DE acting out player-made-decisions.

 

People voted for a damaging chain explosion power,

people complained that pure damage wouldn't be enough,

DE then implemented the power with a slow and damage buff to appease those people,

people then complained that it was too powerful.

 

Basically, take your first instinct and run with it. The community never know what they want and can't agree on anything.

 

Individual player representatives wouldn't work, perhaps community wide polls on the bigger decisions? AKA Frost? Relying purely on how many thumbs up a post gets or what you can gleam from comments isn't enough. You could do a simple straw poll on things like that, leave it up and see what the vast majority of players want, rather than a few select individuals who attempt to represent a larger community.

[Dalu__Ka]

Yes lets keep bumping this abomination.

[notionphil]

I aint scared o you phil!

 

Either that or more in depth communication when it comes to DE acting out player-made-decisions.

 

People voted for a damaging chain explosion power,

people complained that pure damage wouldn't be enough,

DE then implemented the power with a slow and damage buff to appease those people,

people then complained that it was too powerful.

 

Basically, take your first instinct and run with it. The community never know what they want and can't agree on anything.

 

Individual player representatives wouldn't work, perhaps community wide polls on the bigger decisions? AKA Frost? Relying purely on how many thumbs up a post gets or what you can gleam from comments isn't enough. You could do a simple straw poll on things like that, leave it up and see what the vast majority of players want, rather than a few select individuals who attempt to represent a larger community.

 

The thing is, a few individuals who understand the game and primarily want its longevity will have drastically different and more specific opinions than the community (including DC) at large. Most importantly, they don't have to agree - I'm proposing a 'sanity check'...an analysis of DE's proposals to ensure that they haven't missed anything...like for example releasing a new weapon which will instantly replace all clantech but at rank 0.

 

Polls are a great way to get a lot of very shallow information...DE actually needs a little very deep information.

 

As an example, I'm sure a community poll on the Marelok's stats would have been 1k+ votes of 75/25 : Hell YEA/Um no. A lot of information, not very detailed.

 

However, a quick chat with 10 or so really experienced WF players would have been more like...awesome weapon idea but needs slightly more downside. Outshines almost every secondary in nearly every meaningful category - Initial accuracy is too high, recoil ends up putting reticle back on target by the time next round is ready. Needs to feel more unwieldy to pack brakk level power with no damage falloff. Might be time to introduce a new jamming mechanic or something to make reload skill based. Makes Grinlok feel obsolete - maybe cut status way back to ensure this gun is a powerhouse and not a laser-guided-scalpel-nuke.

[TunaMayo]

The thing is, a few individuals who understand the game and primarily want its longevity will have drastically different and more specific opinions than the community (including DC) at large. Most importantly, they don't have to agree - I'm proposing a 'sanity check'...an analysis of DE's proposals to ensure that they haven't missed anything...like for example releasing a new weapon which will instantly replace all clantech but at rank 0.

 

Polls are a great way to get a lot of very shallow information...DE actually needs a little very deep information.

 

As an example, I'm sure a community poll on the Marelok's stats would have been 1k+ votes of 75/25 : Hell YEA/Um no. A lot of information, not very detailed.

 

However, a quick chat with 10 or so really experienced WF players would have been more like...awesome weapon idea but needs slightly more downside. Outshines almost every secondary in nearly every meaningful category - Initial accuracy is too high, recoil ends up putting reticle back on target by the time next round is ready. Needs to feel more unwieldy to pack brakk level power with no damage falloff. Might be time to introduce a new jamming mechanic or something to make reload skill based. Makes Grinlok feel obsolete - maybe cut status way back to ensure this gun is a powerhouse and not a laser-guided-scalpel-nuke.

 

I think that is what the whole point of people being "promoted" to design council was.

 

In essence, I agree with you. But who gets designated as speaker? How do we decide who to speak on our behalf?

 

Bearing in mind most of the "sane" posts get buried extremely quickly. It's only the controversial posts that get seen.

[Dalu__Ka]

I think that is what the whole point of people being "promoted" to design council was.

 

In essence, I agree with you. But who gets designated as speaker? How do we decide who to speak on our behalf?

 

Bearing in mind most of the "sane" posts get buried extremely quickly. It's only the controversial posts that get seen.

The person who has the most swear words with the biggest caps.

[notionphil]

I think that is what the whole point of people being "promoted" to design council was.

 

In essence, I agree with you. But who gets designated as speaker? How do we decide who to speak on our behalf?

 

Bearing in mind most of the "sane" posts get buried extremely quickly. It's only the controversial posts that get seen.

 

There's no fair way. We're not organized enough to select.

 

DE would have to select themselves; hopefully veteran players with a variety of 'perspectives'. Some hardcore clannies. Some "pros". Some long term casuals. Some mods. Some forum spreadsheet guys. Some forum idea guys. Some forum jokesters. Some forum creative types.

 

A motley crew to be certain...which is a good thing.

 

DE would end up with a small crew (10-15) to pull the proverbial fire alarm on things before they get out of hand - and a few perspectives on how to best remedy the damage. That focused, actionable content, they could then choose to take or leave.

 

 

 

The person who has the most swear words with the biggest caps.

 

biggest epeen always wins!

Edited March 5, 2014 by notionphil

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I think that is what the whole point of people being "promoted" to design council was.

 

In essence, I agree with you. But who gets designated as speaker? How do we decide who to speak on our behalf?

 

Bearing in mind most of the "sane" posts get buried extremely quickly. It's only the controversial posts that get seen.

I think you're right, but the DC is far too large to properly function as such.  Sane posts get buried too quickly as has been pointed out above.

 

I posted a rather comprehensive evaluation of just who such a council should be composed of in Notion's thread on the subject.

[TunaMayo]

I think you're right, but the DC is far too large to properly function as such.  Sane posts get buried too quickly as has been pointed out above.

 

I posted a rather comprehensive evaluation of just who such a council should be composed of in Notion's thread on the subject.

 

I was by no means suggesting that the DC is a viable source of information.

 

You just have to look at the council chat in game, it's just a yellow version of region chat. I'm giving that post a read now.