Is Anybody Really Satisfied With The Ability System?

[BramBlackmon]

this isn't about the mod system. It's more about the way powers are activated in game. DE has been steadily boosting the amount of power orbs that drop in game for quite some time now. But the system as it stands, heavily encourages spam usage of powers half the time, and leaves you high and dry if you didn't sit on your powers until that perfect ideal moment the other half. that last part is especially noticable in Boss fights on higher level missions.

And while it's not really a broken system, it's not one that makes the best use of abilities. They shouldn't be spam to win nukes, but they shouldn't really be worst case scenario emergency buttons either.

I'll probably catch flak for saying this, but It really seems like a timed cooldown on abilities would work a lot better than the current system. No spamming to win, no being abilitless at a crucial time. If I wanted to stretch it, this would also be a good means of encouraging team play by making you rely on your team mates when your abilities are on cooldown.

((also considering the complaints about the new system leaving players without a means of making flexible builds, might be a nice gesture on DE's part to implement this so we can get rid of two arguably must have cards to make room for other things))

[LoRDxDeMoN]

I like it quite a bit. With Flow, you get plenty of flexibility.

[Cinderain]

I've suggested cooldowns on ultimates before, too many people rely on it and nothing else. I wouldn't have any problem with them.

Edited March 27, 2013 by FatalX7

[subnet]

A cooldown timer instead of energy would definitely make things better. Like you already said, abilities run out very soon on bossfights, and after it's empty, there's no way to gain energy but to kill the boss.

A cooldown for every Ability would make things nice.

[Emolition]

A cooldown timer instead of energy would definitely make things better. Like you already said, abilities run out very soon on bossfights, and after it's empty, there's no way to gain energy but to kill the boss.

A cooldown for every Ability would make things nice.

That when trinity comes in with energy vampire fills the groups energy up = support

[CY13ERPUNK]

ive suggested this before

but im all for a regen slowly (something like half the rate that energy siphon gives) up to say 30-50% of your max power available (could be different for different frames, ie excal regen's upto 30% whereas loki might regen upto 50%)

then ALL 4th's get a base CD of 30-90 secs (some shorter/longer than others, based on what they do), I don't really think the 1-3 powers need a CD personally

this would mostly remove the need for the energy siphon artifact, but personally i think the artifact system needs an overhaul anyways

but this new power management would allow more new mods (ie higher baseline regen level mod)

additionally I'd like to see the blue balls drop FAR LESS, as IMHO the current system bases yer abiltiy use strictly off of RNG, and that is not ideal

within my proposed system, all frames would always regen enough energy to use their #1 at least, some their #2 as well, and they could be kitted out to maybe even regen up to their #3, but ULT's (#4) would not be spammable and would be used much more sparingly, thus making their crazy power worthwhile (though many of them might need a buff to coincide with this)

(of course this is based on the 25/50/75/100 cost, some frames have abilities that deviate from this, again many ability costs still need to be adjusted in the current system)

this way as long as you could find cover and take a breather for a sec, you'd never be completely empty, as you could usually have access to your lower level abilities most of the time

[shoudra]

If the ability system is changed they really need to change how mobs interact with players because when I did kela for example I see like 50 mobs and we are on top with a vent and I am a volt I feel I should overload to give the group some breathing room to jump down. However, it might all change in the true endgame as that is still a mystery.

Edited March 27, 2013 by shoudra

[BramBlackmon]

That when trinity comes in with energy vampire fills the groups energy up = support

That's not an ideal solution by any means. Energy vampire costs 50 energy and is gone the moment the enemy it was casted on dies. Which is fairly quick because everybody immediately targets that enemy.With the exception of Bosses, but it relies on having a Trinity in the group. If there's no trinity there's no way to energy vamp the boss.

[BramBlackmon]

ive suggested this before

but im all for a regen slowly (something like half the rate that energy siphon gives) up to say 30-50% of your max power available (could be different for different frames, ie excal regen's upto 30% whereas loki might regen upto 50%)

then ALL 4th's get a base CD of 30-90 secs (some shorter/longer than others, based on what they do), I don't really think the 1-3 powers need a CD personally

this would mostly remove the need for the energy siphon artifact, but personally i think the artifact system needs an overhaul anyways

but this new power management would allow more new mods (ie higher baseline regen level mod)

additionally I'd like to see the blue balls drop FAR LESS, as IMHO the current system bases yer abiltiy use strictly off of RNG, and that is not ideal

within my proposed system, all frames would always regen enough energy to use their #1 at least, some their #2 as well, and they could be kitted out to maybe even regen up to their #3, but ULT's (#4) would not be spammable and would be used much more sparingly, thus making their crazy power worthwhile (though many of them might need a buff to coincide with this)

(of course this is based on the 25/50/75/100 cost, some frames have abilities that deviate from this, again many ability costs still need to be adjusted in the current system)

this way as long as you could find cover and take a breather for a sec, you'd never be completely empty, as you could usually have access to your lower level abilities most of the time

That's definitely an ideal in the right step. But energy siphon is a bit slow as it stands. You still rely mainly on the blue orbs. I can't imagine applying that buff to all warframes at half the value would be a great step up. And it cripples warframes that rely heavily on their higher abilities. I have a Rhino. Even though i have rhino charged decked out to cover the range of a slash dash ((and am working on getting it's damage up to similiar levels)) It's still not that great of a #1 ability. It's key point is the knockdown which, while useful, has a tendancy to not come into play at all on heavy enemies unless you nail them dead on with it. The real selling point of a rhino is Iron Skin. Having even less access to this would cripple my build.

I can't help but feel that a cooldown system would be easier to tweak than a hybrid.

Though while I'm thinking on it. another issue with the current system is the fact that all skills draw from the same pool of energy. which means I could be forced into using a skill in a tense moment, only for it to be ineffective at giving me breathing room. ((Infested and their stun locks are a major cause of this kind of situation)) and be left without any other options available to me.

Edited March 27, 2013 by BramBlackmon

[Emolition]

That's not an ideal solution by any means. Energy vampire costs 50 energy and is gone the moment the enemy it was casted on dies. Which is fairly quick because everybody immediately targets that enemy.With the exception of Bosses, but it relies on having a Trinity in the group. If there's no trinity there's no way to energy vamp the boss.

yeah I know it only good on bosses but as that was a response to his energy problem with bosses that is very valid was not for regular mobs and trinity enegy vampire might cost 50 energy but wile fighting a boss it will keep you energy capped out all the time.

[Arlayn]

Some warframes kinda need to spam their ultimates... otherwise we would be killed by Infested... its not like you can name more then one warframe that has a massive AOE that kills and knocks back enemies at the same time without it being a ultimate outside of Rhino...

[EVxx]

I would like to vote for no cooldowns, or any artificial limiting rules that can open the pandora's box for further mandatory rules and limits.

Cooldowns timers in many games are proportional to the power of the ability in question. Once we agree on a cooldown, the usual subsequent steps are to fine-tune the timer for each of the abilities.

I see the problem described by the original poster to be strength of the game: abilities are uniformly operating under the same mechanics. We don't get to use them continuously in boss fights, and yes, we can spam them until we are dry, but that is freedom. Freedom in game mechanics is priceless.

I am a strong advocate behind letting players do as much as they want but with real consequences. Last night I was on a fairly difficult mission as Loki with another player as Excalibur. We were relying on my Decoy, until I spammed it during a difficult fight. I was out of energy and the subsequent fight went south. There was no decoy, so we ran into an elevator but the door didn't close fast enough before a tough infested got into the elevator with us...

In this scenario, a timer system would have saved me. Yet, I should be allowed to spam at one point, and being stomped on by infested a minute next as a result.

Summing up - I like limited pool of resources but without limits on when and how I am allowed to use it. If that means in a tough boss fight I can only use my ability several times, I will learn to conserve my resources.

Everyone can understand timers, but not everyone can properly manage their limited resources.

[BramBlackmon]

I would like to vote for no cooldowns, or any artificial limiting rules that can open the pandora's box for further mandatory rules and limits.

Cooldowns timers in many games are proportional to the power of the ability in question. Once we agree on a cooldown, the usual subsequent steps are to fine-tune the timer for each of the abilities.

I see the problem described by the original poster to be strength of the game: abilities are uniformly operating under the same mechanics. We don't get to use them continuously in boss fights, and yes, we can spam them until we are dry, but that is freedom. Freedom in game mechanics is priceless.

I am a strong advocate behind letting players do as much as they want but with real consequences. Last night I was on a fairly difficult mission as Loki with another player as Excalibur. We were relying on my Decoy, until I spammed it during a difficult fight. I was out of energy and the subsequent fight went south. There was no decoy, so we ran into an elevator but the door didn't close fast enough before a tough infested got into the elevator with us...

In this scenario, a timer system would have saved me. Yet, I should be allowed to spam at one point, and being stomped on by infested a minute next as a result.

Summing up - I like limited pool of resources but without limits on when and how I am allowed to use it. If that means in a tough boss fight I can only use my ability several times, I will learn to conserve my resources.

Everyone can understand timers, but not everyone can properly manage their limited resources.

In that scenario, you would have died well before you got to the elevator where it not for your decoy. So having no energy going into that encounter would have ruined you either way.

The thing is, the only consequence for death in this game is having to go back and do it again. And dying because of a random circumstantial BS moment, is not freeing, it's frustrating.

and it's not a freeing mechanic to be limited by our resource pool. It's just a different set of rules and limits from a cooldown system. Energy pool is a limiting mechanic that stops me from using my abilities when I want to. Forcing me into using my abilities only when I absolutely need to.

As you said. Everyone can understand timers. If this game is to have long lasting appeal, difficult can not come from frustrating, limiting mechanics.

[PhantomWay]

Hmmm an ITEM like ENERGY potion that re-full 100 Power? We got for Health and Shield, Why not for Energy?

[Arlayn]

acctually isnt it pointless to have one for shield? I mean take cover let it recharge... we need something for power so we can blasting things like crazy... Would be cool to spend credits on a energy recharge and have a whole bunch on Volt with a maxed out Flow card and then have him walk around blasting everything with shock LOL

[G3rman]

I think they need to actually get diversity in the powers before they start working on them being spammable.

There is are a few different sets the current powers fall into, but they all amount to the same thing with just a different animation or color. I know this is done for balance reasons "systemic" and all that good stuff, but there isn't any significance in using Mag over Frost if you want a heavy AOE attack.

Mag you get to lift things up and throw stuff at them, Frost waves his arms and things freeze. Both do the exact same thing.

Cooldowns = not a good idea with Warframe. They are just as limiting, you just put a number on the ability specifically rather than a number of energy required.

If you really want to see people spam weak powers and barely ever use ults, then that is the way to go. It will upset the balance of what makes classes unique.

Now, if the powers were overhauled and actually felt like you were a "mage", a "warrior", or a "rogue" then I would argue have the mage classes get a cooldown, Warriors build up frenzy points by killing things that can be spent on powers, and rogues rely on energy that slowly fills itself back up or can be picked up from enemies or doing stealth kills or something rogue-y.

Edited March 27, 2013 by G3rman

[shoudra]

I would agree a lot of ultimates are the same I rather see powers that you can combo like contagion and molt as an example on saryn or decoy/invis I guess on a Loki. However, like I posted before ultimates are for clearing the 50 mobs in a room because it's just more efficient than shooting them all. I don't like adding a "trinity" in this game I like the freedom. That being said I do appreciate the creativity.

[Flamed]

Some frames actually need their ult, like Ash. He has absolutely no aoe skills, so giant mobs of enemies take too long. To also kick him when hes down, his ult has a limit on the amount of enemies it can kill.

Other frames like excal and rhino can clear out giant mobs with ease just by using their basic skills. A CD on ults isn't going to fix the problem.

[G3rman]

I don't like adding a "trinity" in this game I like the freedom.

They already have it, they just haven't elaborated on its significance. It doesn't matter what direction you look at it. Ember is a mage, Excalibur is a Warrior, Loki is a Rogue, Trinity is a priest, etc.

Better to capitalize on this rather than ignore it.

[shoudra]

true, however it is very soft however, I mean forcing us to have a certain setup for missions ruins the game at least for me because it reminds me too much of a mmorpg that forces you to have certain set ups this brings a lot of "elite" people that pushes for them. I have this problem in GW2 as an example where I have decent gear the step below legendary however, I can't get in a guild because they demand "Legendary" equipment. Even though the equipment differences between legendary and exotic is not all that significant. Maybe it's just a bad experience but, the freedom to kill with an any group let's you get going a lot quicker.

Edited March 27, 2013 by shoudra

[BramBlackmon]

alright, apparently I left it too open. So let me explain this exactly as I had it in mind.

1st skill-15 second cooldown

2nd skill-30 seconds

3rd skill- 45 seconds

4th skill- 1 minute

No skills would ever take longer than a minute to recharge under this system. For skills that work better as spammables. Drop the cooldown time. tinker with things within that one minute boundary, just don't go above it.and let the cooldown start the instant the skill is used.

none of the skill cooldowns tie into each other. so If you use your first skill, you can use the second while waiting for the first to recharge. and so on and so forth.

No more having to luck out on power drops. No spamming, and you'll be using the full variety of your skills a lot more.

Yeah, they still need to work on actual ability diversity. But this is something they could knock out in a weeks time instead of waiting for skills to be diversified then waiting for a change to the system that would make that diversity matter.

Edited March 27, 2013 by BramBlackmon

[G3rman]

That's a bad system because it discourages use of powers entirely, they take way too long to recharge even the simplest power.

Some warframe 1st abilities are a lot better than their third, or their second is superior to the fourth. How will those numbers address that?

What if I only take along my third skill because its the only useful thing my warframe has to offer? Why should I suffer the same cooldown penalty as someone who has all four?

Mods would then crop up that reduce cooldown time, increasing the complexity for the designers to have to balance the actual time it takes to recharge.

Spams don't matter if the powers aren't godly. Now that range has been nerfed, I could care less if the Frost spends his energy reserves to kill a group of four or five bunched up enemies.

Edited March 28, 2013 by G3rman

[Babalenong]

if warframe use cooldown, bosses would be a "wait for cooldown" game, and this energy system encourages you to rush and get in close to enemy, although i think there should be a way to gain energy passively to make boss battles fun last longer, like energy slowly refills upto 25% max energy? and not anymore than that? because that would encourage first skill use a lot more, and usually the first skill is the most common used one and most usefull

Edited March 28, 2013 by Babalenong

[ShadowsCrush]

Yeah, cooldowns wouldn't do the trick at all

People could just wait rooms out for a cooldown and spam 4 again

Having to find 4 energy orbs is actually more difficult at times than it would be to kite for 60 seconds

[Zyfe3rX]

I VOTE : NO for any kind of cool downs !