What Is The Grinlok But An Inferior Marelok?

[VKhaun]

You guys are trying to talk balance without a framework for balance. We have an early game that everyone agrees needs a revamp, and we have no end game. We have only enough gear to reach barely more than half the rank cap. We're missing basic auras, have no idea what weapons will be dual or not, and we're watching power creep turn into a power march. Putting pistol v rifle under the microscope is arbitrary, and using the word 'gimp' is pointless because of how easy 99% of the content is, even for non-crit rifles when you put eight maxed out mods on them.

 

I came into the thread because I read the topic line, and I just finished leveling both weapons. The distinction is clear and neither one is 'inferior' they are a classic weapon and sawn-off version pair. If the only thing you can do to call the Grinlok 'inferior' is backpeddle to the entire game making an entire class of weapons 'inferior' then you haven't really argued your point. You've just declared the sky blue.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would however, very much like to understand what this stuff is about crit damage and headshots. Are we just saying that crit weapons do a lot more DPS and so headshots magnify that, or is there an actual mechanic that a crit gets more bonus from a headshot than a non crit?

 

Say you have one weapon hit for 200 on a regular hit.

A second weapon hits the same mob for 200 crit damage.

They're both headshots.

Would they both do x2 = 400 damage, or would the crit do more than the regular?

Edited March 9, 2014 by VKhaun

[Brimir]

 

I came into the thread because I read the topic line, and I just finished leveling both weapons. The distinction is clear and neither one is 'inferior' they are a classic weapon and sawn-off version pair. If the only thing you can do to call the Grinlok 'inferior' is backpeddle to the entire game making an entire class of weapons 'inferior' then you haven't really argued your point. You've just declared the sky blue.

 

The Grinlok is clearly and obviously inferior to the Marelok when it comes to killing things.

 

And that is sort of integral to a weapon.

[shut]

It is not the Marelok's fault.

 

Its the state of Secondary mods - they are just flat-out better than anything else.

Marelok would be a direct upgrade to Grinlok even if it used Rifle mods.

It is the Marelok's fault.

[LazyKnight]

I would however, very much like to understand what this stuff is about crit damage and headshots. Are we just saying that crit weapons do a lot more DPS and so headshots magnify that, or is there an actual mechanic that a crit gets more bonus from a headshot than a non crit?

A critical hits on the head has a 4x damage modifier, where as a white hits on heads has a 2x damage modifier. This is why a Dread can get such massive damage on heads shots, and it is 4x the damage of a critical hit on the body.

Edited March 9, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Brimir]

Marelok would be a direct upgrade to Grinlok even if it used Rifle mods.

It is the Marelok's fault.

 

It wouldn't be as bad if it weren't for the mods.

 

So they have to share the blame, I suppose.

[VKhaun]

The Grinlok is clearly and obviously inferior to the Marelok when it comes to killing things.

 

And that is sort of integral to a weapon.

 

Bull. 

 

At short range in a Galleon I'll take Marelok every time.

 

At long ranges like the void or this new Grineer Shipyard? Marelok gets dropped real fast. Can't reliably headshot anymore and doesn't have a big enough mag to run around body shotting.

 

Your opinion is purely based on stats and numbers that you yourself say need to be balanced. 

[VKhaun]

A critical hits on the head has a 4x damage modifier, where as a white hits on heads has a 2x damage modifier. This is why a Dread can get such massive damage on heads shots, and it is 4x the damage the critical damage of a critical hit on the body.

 

So if I hit a mob with a 200 non-crit headshot, I'll do 400.

 

If I hit a mob in the head with a 200 damage crit, I'll do 800?

[Brimir]

Bull. 

 

At short range in a Galleon I'll take Marelok every time.

 

At long ranges like the void or this new Grineer Shipyard? Marelok gets dropped real fast. Can't reliably headshot anymore and doesn't have a big enough mag to run around body shotting.

 

Your opinion is purely based on stats and numbers that you yourself say need to be balanced. 

 

No, that is bull. The Marelok is not a shotgun, it is not like it has falloff or anything. It has exactly the same range as the Grinlok but more spread when firing.

 

As I mentioned previously, due to the superior Multishot mod for Secondaries you get three bullets/trigger pull which gets you a shotgun-like effect - which is more than enough to compensate for the loss of accuracy - just aim center mass and the range is just as good as the Grinlok.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Brimir

[shut]

It wouldn't be as bad if it weren't for the mods.

 

So they have to share the blame, I suppose.

That's true. However, the issue surrounding the specific Marelok vs. Grinlok problem is that Marelok is straight-up better when both are unmodded.

Secondary vs. Primary mods is also an issue, but applies to pretty much every weapon out there instead of just these specific two.

 

If Marelok shouldn't be a stupidly-powerful direct upgrade to Grinlok, then nerf the Marelok. Not every secondary in the game.

[shut]

So if I hit a mob with a 200 non-crit headshot, I'll do 400.

 

If I hit a mob in the head with a 200 damage crit, I'll do 800?

Yes.

[LazyKnight]

So if I hit a mob with a 200 non-crit headshot, I'll do 400.

 

If I hit a mob in the head with a 200 damage crit, I'll do 800?

Yeah, critical hits are that good.

[VKhaun]

Fascinating.

 

I'm going to test that myself before I believe it of course, but I have to wonder if it's intentional or not.

[Brimir]

Fascinating.

 

I'm going to test that myself before I believe it of course, but I have to wonder if it's intentional or not.

 

Probably is.

 

To reflect how prior to Armour 2.0 the heads were "unarmoured".

[VKhaun]

No, that is bull. The Marelok is not a shotgun, it is not like it has falloff or anything. It has exactly the same range as the Grinlok but more spread when firing.

 

As I mentioned previously, due to the superior Multishot mod for Secondaries you get three bullets/trigger pull which gets you a shotgun-like effect - which is more than enough to compensate for the loss of accuracy - just aim center mass and the range is just as good as the Grinlok.

 

'The same range' and aim center mass?

 

Yeah, if all you're doing is comparing body shots on DPSframe.com then Marelok is superior to Grinlock.

 

 

In the real world where we expect the game to eventually be balanced, it matters that one is better at long range headshots, and that's exactly the difference you would expect from a long gun and a sawn off version of it.

Edited March 9, 2014 by VKhaun

[PaperAlien]

You guys are trying to talk balance without a framework for balance. We have an early game that everyone agrees needs a revamp, and we have no end game. We have only enough gear to reach barely more than half the rank cap. We're missing basic auras, have no idea what weapons will be dual or not, and we're watching power creep turn into a power march. Putting pistol v rifle under the microscope is arbitrary, and using the word 'gimp' is pointless because of how easy 99% of the content is, even for non-crit rifles when you put eight maxed out mods on them.

For most things, I would agree with you. But the issue here isn't any single item or group of items. It's THE scaling of the game. From early game TO end game, and everywhere in between, pistols are the consistently stronger than rifles, because mods are the scaling of the game, and the fact that Hornet Strike maxes at 220 over Serration's 165, and ditto with every other pistol/rifle mod, means that a pistol under the same conditions as a rifle of similar type/tier, will always, consistently be better than the rifle. There is absolutely no reason why pistol mods should have such an overwhelming advantage for a scaling thing.

If we are to fix anything about this game's early game, end game, balance and scaling, this is where we start at.

Edited March 9, 2014 by PaperAlien

[VKhaun]

For most things, I would agree with you. But the issue here isn't any single item or group of items. It's THE scaling of the game. From early game TO end game, and everywhere in between, pistols are the consistently stronger than rifles, because mods are the scaling of the game, and the fact that Hornet Strike maxes at 220 over Serration's 165, and ditto with every other pistol/rifle mod, means that a pistol under the same conditions as a rifle of similar type/tier, will always, consistently be better than the rifle. There is absolutely no reason why pistol mods should have such an overwhelming advantage for a scaling thing.

If we are to fix anything about this game's early game, end game, balance and scaling, this is where we start at.

 

Okay.

 

Now do we buff rifles or nerf pistols?

 

The end strength of all guns should be relative to... what exactly?

 

We have no idea, because we have no framework.

[shut]

Okay.

 

Now do we buff rifles or nerf pistols?

 

The end strength of all guns should be relative to... what exactly?

 

We have no idea, because we have no framework.

Considering how easy the game is until you get to "We didn't intend the enemies to scale to these levels, and will not balance them based on these levels." enemies, I think that although we don't have the most solid framework, we do have a general idea of where we should be headed.

[PaperAlien]

Okay.

 

Now do we buff rifles or nerf pistols?

 

The end strength of all guns should be relative to... what exactly?

 

We have no idea, because we have no framework.

One of the two. If we don't have a standard right now, we can choose anywhere to start setting it.

[Azamagon]

Okay.

 

Now do we buff rifles or nerf pistols?

 

The end strength of all guns should be relative to... what exactly?

 

We have no idea, because we have no framework.

I say:

* Equalize base stats of pistols contra rifles more

* Nerf Hornet Strike to Serration level

* Buff Split Chamber to Barrel diffusion level

 

That's a good starting point at least, no?

[LazyKnight]

The end strength of all guns should be relative to... what exactly?

I want to see what this badlands is, and if any harder mission are released soon (heavily hinted by Vay Hek). They could very easily do a ramp of the difficulty overnight.

 

Rifles just need critical chance, it is really the easy way to balance them and it rewards people that carefully aim. It wouldn't hurt to finally make split chamber 100% as that is just needless punitive to marksmen's rifles to keep it at 90%. 

Edited March 9, 2014 by LazyKnight

[VKhaun]

I think I disagree with most of you when it comes to multishot. It doesn't create gameplay, it rewards inaccuracy with consolation prize partial hits and it's just serving as a big giant damage multiplier for boring and easy body hits. It also throws crit chance and proc chance balance out of whack. 

 

Considering how easy most content is for my mid tier weapons with seven or eight maxed mods, I would just do away with all the multishot mods. Make Lethal Torrent into Fire Rate / Reload Speed or some other bonus.

[Brimir]

'The same range' and aim center mass?

 

Yeah, if all you're doing is comparing body shots on DPSframe.com then Marelok is superior to Grinlock.

 

 

In the real world where we expect the game to eventually be balanced, it matters that one is better at long range headshots, and that's exactly the difference you would expect from a long gun and a sawn off version of it.

 

Funny thing about the Grinlok is the lack of a scope. The range differences are moot, because they really only matter at sniper range anyway.

[Lag_Killed_You_Not_Me]

Nerf Marelock. Please.

Why not just buff the Grinlok?

[taiiat]

I think I disagree with most of you when it comes to multishot. It doesn't create gameplay, it rewards inaccuracy with consolation prize partial hits and it's just serving as a big giant damage multiplier for boring and easy body hits. It also throws crit chance and proc chance balance out of whack. 

 

Considering how easy most content is for my mid tier weapons with seven or eight maxed mods, I would just do away with all the multishot mods. Make Lethal Torrent into Fire Rate / Reload Speed or some other bonus.

i'd agree in principle, as an objective balancer.

 

as a player, damnit, i want Multishot. because yno, seeing a billion impacts on a Shotgun or Machine Gun is very satisfying.

like Supras' cloud of projectiles.

 

 

hm. perhaps Multishot Mods would all be exactly double Projectile count, and halve Damage, Crit Chance, and Status Chance. exactly identical everything, just more projectiles, to help with larger crowds and for people that perhaps aren't the best marksman. and then we can keep those Mods so i can still use them on a certain few Weapons :p

 

absolutely take Lethal Torrent out of the equation though. one Weapon Category - the strongest one to start with - having two Multishot Mods just creates big problems.

Why not just buff the Grinlok?

because that's far from the core of the problem.

 

and over the past 16 months, that's ALL Warframe has been doing. adding zeroes to this, adding zeroes to that. 

 

the same problems still exist. after 16 months, we've just been running in circles. all of the problems are still here, only further extrapolated because we've added zeroes on to the end of everything.

 

Pistols used to be just slightly better than Rifles. almost not enough to even notice. 

now? we've added a couple zeroes to all the stats - and that tiny Disparity, is now much larger.

 

adding more zeroes will NOT solve anything. because we have 16 months of precedent that it hasn't.

[Paradoxbomb]

I think I disagree with most of you when it comes to multishot. It doesn't create gameplay, it rewards inaccuracy with consolation prize partial hits and it's just serving as a big giant damage multiplier for boring and easy body hits. It also throws crit chance and proc chance balance out of whack. 

 

Considering how easy most content is for my mid tier weapons with seven or eight maxed mods, I would just do away with all the multishot mods. Make Lethal Torrent into Fire Rate / Reload Speed or some other bonus.

 

I agree, while I'm sure nerfing multishot is something players would be in an uproar about, I feel it's something that would need to be done if DE intends to even come close to making a balanced damage system. Right now it's basically free double (and for pistols triple) damage with no tradeoff whatsoever. I can only imagine how difficult it is to balance gameplay for both vets and new players when a single mod turns the former's already sufficient gun into a one man army that trivializes all content under level 40, whereas the latter is still struggling to kill low-mid level enemies.

 

Personally I feel it's just too much power for a single mod, and that DE could honestly implement ways of acquiring a similar power level in a more creative and, more importantly, balanced manner. I don't want to get too into it though since Multishot isn't the main focus of this thread (and I don't wanna start a derailing flame war) though I feel Multishot mods play a serious role in damage imbalance, and ideally should NOT exceed 100%.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Paradoxbomb