Boltor Prime Is Grossly Overpowered

[LazyKnight]

At the monster hunter thing, I think that although weapons and Frames are currently out of whack in this game in terms of balance, the real culprit for the imbalance is our awful damage/mod system. Mods add too much damage and not enough utility to practically every weapon, and enemies don't (read: and shouldn't) scale to these mods until you get to the "We didn't intend for enemies to become this strong, and will not balance the game based on these enemies" levels. 

The warframes are far more out-of-whack than the weapons are. If DE wanted to curb stomp weapons, all they would have to do is change it so serration, and the other damage mods, no longer affected elemental damage mods. This would just make serration increase I/s/p damage and it would drastically lower the damage out-put of weapons.

Edited March 9, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Bibliothekar]

Right now, the problem with the game is that mods make it far too stat-reliant. I think the whole mod system needs a good looking at, because literally no skill is required in this game once you reach around Earth and get your damage mods ready. From then on, it's nothing but a series of (easy-to-climb) stat walls. Buffing enemies will only cause new players to suffer further; the best thing to do is to nerf down the "veterans" and decrease the stupidly large gap between modded and unmodded weaponry.

More or less what I said here.

[immolator1001]

Soma has 1 Impact damage. Look at how totally weak it is.

Ya but it has a crit multiplier to increase it.

[FuzzyRamen]

Whine. Whine. Whine. Buff everything else, when everything is overpowered nothing is under powered. Enough said.

[Oriviagene]

What about the soma? You talk about the despair being overpowered, but don't say anything about the Soma. Let me guess, you're using it and whine about it being surpassed.

+1 to dis

And NO,coz I love dis gun and I don't want any whiner F*** up with boltor prime

And stahp asking for nerf,just use ur own fav gun and deal with it

Edited March 9, 2014 by Godhands

[shut]

Whine. Whine. Whine. Buff everything else, when everything is overpowered nothing is under powered. Enough said.

Except the enemy. They're underpowered already, and will become even more underpowered. So then the devs have to go and buff all the enemies.

 

By the time that's all done, the result is the same as nerfing a couple of weapons, except it took much more time and resources to do.

This is the exact path that Maplestory has followed for years, and it suffers because of it.

Edited March 9, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Oishii]

Except the enemy. They're underpowered already, and will become even more underpowered. So then the devs have to go and buff all the enemies.

 

By the time that's all done, the result is the same as nerfing a couple of weapons, except it took much more time and resources to do.

This is the exact path that Maplestory has followed for years, and it suffers because of it.

I would argue that overpowered warframe abilities such as trinity making you invicible 95% of the time or vaubaun making groups of enemies useless with 1 button make the game easy against more difficult enemies like grineer (the corrupted and infested are chumps sadly). Brakk does need a nerfing though but the akboltos still outdo the boltor prime in dps, the boltor is just the first rifle to really contend with pistols/be slightly better than some higher end pistols.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Oishii

[LazyKnight]

Except the enemy. They're underpowered already, and will become even more underpowered. So then the devs have to go and buff all the enemies.

DE could buff NPC, it is hardly hard to do something like that. Solo the game is somewhat balanced, but for multiplayer it is broken and it mainly do to the Warframe's powers and not the weapon. Multiplayer seems like it needs DE just to have a level multiplier for NPC based on the numbers of players and have the strength of the modifier based on conclave ratting.

 

The Vay Hek event part 2 was trivialized by the frost snow globe spamming and the other powers, and the NPC were simply ignored. Again, the Warframes are in much more dire need of the nerf bat.

 

 

 

I should post pictures and show the math, I will if people do not believe me. I have a 4 forma Boltor Prime and a 4 forma Soma, and Soma hits far harder on headshot. It is enough of a difference that Bolltor-p needs heavy caliber to match Soma without one, when headshot are factored. Soma is flat-out stronger than Boltor prime, and so is Synapse, and all it takes is targeting the head. If anything this makes me irritated with Soma as it is a hit-scan weapon.

Edited March 9, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Pure]

Nerf everything, make melee op.

[Boondorl]

I like how my post replying to most of the topics brought up earlier on was removed, despite not being an attack on anyone.

 

Thanks, mods. Here, allow my to re-type it so I can bring all these points back up. I plan on copy+pasting it this time, since clearly I'm not allowed to have an opinion on things here.

 

---

 

If you want to nerf the Boltor Prime then u also have to Nerf the Brakk. Nuff said.

 

I agree.

 

What about the soma? You talk about the despair being overpowered, but don't say anything about the Soma. Let me guess, you're using it and whine about it being surpassed. 

 

Nice assumption, jackass. I don't use my Soma for anything but clearing out invasions. I also believe the Soma is grossly overpowered and needs to be nerfed in the crit and magazine department. I bring up Despair because it was king of DPS on release due to its nature of not being hitscan, therefore deserving 10000 damage a hit. I think everyone knows Soma is OP by now.

 

Alright, a weapon comes out wich actually has disadvantages and to make up for it it has high power .... seems intended.

 

Boltor was in a fine place. It still had higher DPS than Braton, while still remaining a projectile. Projectile weapons should have a slight damage advantage, not one the surpasses everything in this game so far and casts a shadow on everything, even the former king, Soma. I'm honestly just impressed they managed to beat one of the most grossly OP guns in any game I've ever seen.

 

wha?   

 

Soo... the problem.. is its an upgraded version of the Boltor?    

 

Like a Prime Version...  in its orignal state, and not the recreation that is the non prime version O.o.   

 

How is having over double the damage and twice the accuracy even remotely justifiable? It's like they're trying to overthrow the current weapons with these new ones. They're essentially fighting OP guns with OP guns now. This is not a tactic I'd like to see deployed in this game.

 

Just nerf everything... Everysingle weapon and every frame. Will that make u folks happy!? Everything is @(*()$ OP 4 u people. Get over it. Sheesh

 

If you don't like this thread, then leave. Get over it. Sheesh

 

You could say it's overpowered, but i see it as a weapon that doesn't need 8 damage mods.

This is a weapon that allows for a couple of utility mods, without sacrificing it's usefulness in high level content.

 

Yet it's still going to be even better with 8 damage mods. That logic would work out if there was an actual penalty for stacking more damage.

 

Is dps on paper all that matters when it comes to balancing weapons now?

 

Yes, because this is a rifle, not a shotgun. Both Boar Prime and Boltor Prime have the same base DPS of 413. This is nearly 3x as much damage as every other shotgun in the game as is. Now we have it in rifle form, where we're not limited by damage drop off and you don't have to worry about landing every pellet. This is utterly ridiculous and completely disgusting weapon balance. This is shotgun levels of damage on a rifle.

 

---

 

Seriously, I can't even begin to understand the logic behind thinking this is okay. We're not allowed to complain about the game being too easy or there being no end game content when we constantly support stuff like this coming out. Anyone who thinks this isn't OP has a strong misunderstanding of weapon balance. Even Soma requires mods to get its high damage. This thing comes with it right out of the box, and because trading exist, doesn't even require a shred of "effort" (aka getting lucky with RNG) to get. I bring up Despair because this is the same exact thing that happened when Despair was released. It was king because they gave it too much damage (actually on par with Boltor Prime, now that I think about it). Over 50 damage is completely unnecessary. 35 would be all it needed, the accuracy buff alone makes it far superior.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Boondorl

[LazyKnight]

 It was king because they gave it too much damage (actually on par with Boltor Prime, now that I think about it). Over 50 damage is completely unnecessary. 35 would be all it needed, the accuracy buff alone makes it far superior.

Despair was king because of the idiotic armor scaling, and that was the simple reason it was better than all. In damage 1.0: Armor piercing>

> Serrated blade> Poison>Physical impact>Blade> Bullet.

 

At least understand why it stood out so much.

[Boondorl]

Despair was king because of the idiotic armor scaling, and that was the simple reason it was better than all. In damage 1.0: Armor piercing>

> Serrated blade> Poison>Physical impact>Blade> Bullet.

 

At least understand why it stood out so much.

 

Along with that nice 50 damage it did. No one called Boltor OP during that time.

 

Edit: Also, that was not the hierarchy of Damage 1.0. It was Slash > Armor Piercing > Physical Impact > Bullet > Element. I have absolutely no idea what the hell Poison (if you're referring to Torid/Acrid, that was just yet another armor ignore damage type like Slash. I wouldn't even count it as its own type of damage. Just like how Laser was the exact same as bullet) and Blade are supposed to be. At least know what you're talking about before making some "gotcha!" post.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Boondorl

[shut]

DE could buff NPC, it is hardly hard to do something like that. Solo the game is somewhat balanced, but for multiplayer it is broken and it mainly do to the Warframe's powers and not the weapon. Multiplayer seems like it needs DE just to have a level multiplier for NPC based on the numbers of players and have the strength of the modifier based on conclave ratting.

 

The Vay Hek event part 2 was trivialized by the frost snow globe spamming and the other powers, and the NPC were simply ignored. Again, the Warframes are in much more dire need of the nerf bat.

I agree entirely. Invincibility originally worked somewhat well, but with the introduction of Corrupted mods, it just doesn't go well with our current Energy system.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/188272-an-opinion-on-invincibility-powers/

[Mainabi]

I've got a nerf suggestion, let's make all weapons HEAL enemies!

[Tacritan]

Now look at supra. Compare it to boltor.. You are talking about travel time? Supra has MUCH slower projectiles, MUCH lower accuracy.. MUCH lower damage.. Where is balance?

[LazyKnight]

Now look at supra. Compare it to boltor.. You are talking about travel time? Supra has MUCH slower projectiles, MUCH lower accuracy.. MUCH lower damage.. Where is balance?

If DE spent 2 minutes play testing that 'lightshow box' they would realize that it should be buffed or have its cost/mastery reduced.

 

 

Along with that nice 50 damage it did. No one called Boltor OP during that time.

I seem to recall people rarely used it past U8, in favor of flux rifles. Kunai was used at least 10x as much as Boltor was by players in on-line matches.

 

For damage 2.0.

Soma>Boltor Prime. This is because of how critical hits work. The normal boltor is far worse than nearly EVERY weapon because it lack both critical chance and decent slash damage. If DPSframe.com reflected headshot critical damage OR status effects, boltor would rank as one of the weakest weapons in game.

Edited March 9, 2014 by LazyKnight

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

Play monster hunter and progression/power escalation works fine. The only problem is DE has not scaled NPC at all. My Dethcube trivializes most content because his gun has 6 forma. 

To be fair with the Monster Hunter example, though, Capcom neither has to deal with constantly releasing new weapons, and half of the fun of Monster Hunter is sitting there smacking a gigantic dinosaur for 15+ minutes as you scramble around for dear life because you ate a tail while drinking an ill-timed potion (the other half being having shiny weapons and learning how to abuse stagger caps to utterly #recked the same dinosaur later on and chop off tails with awesome efficiency, or nuke things in their sleep).

 

The games are kind of opposites. In Monster Hunter, you're the pod crewman smacking on the bad tenno. In Warframe, we're the Ratholos munching on the scrubster hunters. You deal with crappy weapons from the start in Monster Hunter and progress into really powerful stuff, and it feels good because you're dealing with these gigantic OP dinosaurs to begin with. In Warframe, 95% of the time, you're shooting random trash mob X most of the time, from start to finish. The progression doesn't and will never feel the same between the two games because you never feel like the trash mobs should be that hard to kill to begin with, and all that happens in Warframe scaling is that the trash mobs get more health and more damage, so what happens is your guns feel progressively less powerful, rather than it feeling like your enemies are becoming more powerful

 

In the case of, say, MH3, jumping from a GJaggi to a Barroth to a Lagiacruz to Alatreon and Jhen Moran, you actually look at the target and say "woah, I'm gonna need a shinier sword for that thing".

 

See, even if the billions of corpus we slaughter all day become a little bit stronger and can by default last a little longer against our op modded weapons, it doesn't feel good because at the end of the day, we're just killing random trash mob X over and over again. Progression in a game where everything is trash doesn't feel as good as opposed to a game where everything is by default bigger and badder than you. Monster Hunter mobs by default feel like they should live a long time, especially when you're weak, simply due to the fact that they're big honkin' dinosaurs. On the other hand, box head X out of a crowd of 15 box heads feels like nothing special, and it doesn't help that the majority of their variation in attack is "shoot" or "throw grenade".

 

There is fun in destroying huge hordes of enemies, but it needs to be counterbalanced with those few enemies that makes you actually stop in your tracks. The Grineer kind of have this with their heavies, but they're way too polar (in that they either die immediately or live a long time with ridiculous armor). Right now, if you have mods, you just literally roll over everything ever before they can showcase anything, and even when they do, there's very little variation in what they actually have. If you don't have good enough mods for the area, then you feel utterly useless even against average mob X. There's very little middle ground in warframe, it's due to how everything scales. When you do a Grineer survival, there's a sweetspot where things feel like they take long enough to kill so that they have enough time to throw a thing or two at you, but not enough to feel like a pointless sponge despite being just 1 face in a crowd of many other identical faces. But it takes a very long time in survival for mobs to get to that point, and because of how the scaling works, the game quickly sweeps past it and you start feeling like your weapon is useless quickly.

 

That's just my 2c, anyways. I think I have sufficiently deviated from the topic at hand.

[LazyKnight]

That's just my 2c, anyways. I think I have sufficiently deviated from the topic at hand.

The best reference would have been Phantasy Star, but few people get that reference. This game need a difficulty adjustment that will take DE's Staff awhile to fix. They should consider talking to SEGA or FromSoftware in order to have an idea of how to balance NPC strength. Phantasy Star is far harder than warframe, and that is not a hard game. 

Edited March 10, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Boondorl]

I seem to recall people rarely used it past U8, in favor of flux rifles. Kunai was used at least 10x as much as Boltor was by players in on-line matches.

 

Yes, because it was balanced and even arguably underpowered during that time. That's exactly my point. The recent buffs to it have put it in a very nice spot compared to other rifles, with a nice mix of high damage with a longer reload and a slight travel time disadvantage.

 

And now Boltor Prime comes out and absolutely destroys everything, for no reason at all. Claiming the Soma is still better because crit headshots is not an excuse to keep Boltor Prime as OP as it is. All of these god tier guns need nerfs, not because they're slightly higher in damage output than other rifles, but because the gap is so large it's starting to look like the Grand Canyon.

 

Also, you could use Boltor and Kunai at the same time. Unless you're referring to "pistol primaries", which just proves my point even further. Once people got their hands on Despair, they ditched Kunai because it was a straight-up upgrade of the weapon.

[RedMonarch]

If you want to nerf the Boltor Prime then u also have to Nerf the Brakk. Nuff said.

The Brakk in high end gameplay is only overpowered when used right up against an enemy, and even then it doesn't one shot heavies besides the corrupted ancients ( if we're talking void ) if you don't do that it really sucks tbh. I disagree with your statement. 

[LazyKnight]

Yes, because it was balanced and even arguably underpowered during that time. That's exactly my point. The recent buffs to it have put it in a very nice spot compared to other rifles, with a nice mix of high damage with a longer reload and a slight travel time disadvantage.

Boltor was underpowered then, and worthless now. It doesn't even met the median for pistols.

And now Boltor Prime comes out and absolutely destroys everything, for no reason at all. Claiming the Soma is still better because crit headshots is not an excuse to keep Boltor Prime as OP as it is. All of these god tier guns need nerfs, not because they're slightly higher in damage output than other rifles, but because the gap is so large it's starting to look like the Grand Canyon.

I am enjoying my Boltor prime, if you do not want to buy one or farm one, don't.

 

Boltor prime is worse than Phage, Soma and Synapse, and this entire 'flavor of the week' nerf the new gun is driving me insane. I am feed-up with rifles being worse than secondary weapons, and rifles are STILL worse than secondary weapons.

Edited March 10, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Ratiasu]

In this topic I've seen people comparing Boltor to Braton (srsly?), saying that's a nice spot for it to be (no it isn't), and that's just the normal Boltor, not even the Prime.

 

Soma should be bumped in rating requirement. 8 or so. Boltor prime should be too.

I don't want only sidegrades or only upgrades, I want a combination of both.

 

Tier 1 weapons with a bunch of sidegrades

Tier 2 weapons with a bunch of sidegrades

And so on.

 

If you don't like gear upgrading a la MMO and farming, then you are the one who's at the wrong place here.

 

 

 

 

And yes, bullet travel is a good excuse to have weapons be stronger than bullethose Soma.

Another downside of the Boltor is that it doesn't get the damage buff from Volts Electric Shield, and actually doesn't even pierce it unless you have a mod for that.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Ratiasu

[shut]

Another downside of the Boltor is that it doesn't get teh damage buff from Volts Electric Shield, and actually doesn't even pierce it unless you have a mod for that.

To be fair, that sounds more like a glitch than a balancing factor of the weapon.

[(NSW)Omgwtfl9lbbl]

The best reference would have been Phantasy Star, but few people get that reference. This game need a difficulty adjustment that will take DE's Staff awhile to fix. They should consider talking to SEGA or FromSoftware in order to have an idea of how to balance NPC strength. Phantasy Star is far harder than warframe, and that not a hard game. 

I think PS does this great. PSO2 is not bad, either (though I cannot speak for how it is now as I have not played in quite a while), and has a pretty good balance between horde gameplay and boss gameplay. It's still fairly easy but as a whole feels a lot more satisfying to kill stuff in because of that balance. When they swarm, they swarm hard, and when a boss shows up, they're flashy and take a fair amount of time, and you occasionally get both going at the same time. Seeing a Quartz Dragon randomly smash into the ground out of nowhere while being swarmed by a bunch of smaller mobs and start firing lasers everywhere is a lot more memorable than having Harvester come out (honestly, I have a ton of trouble even figuring out where the Harvester is or if it is dead already) or killing Napalm #774.

 

I would probably actually still be playing PSO2 if I could convince my friends to try the Japanese servers lmao, Despite its flaws, I enjoyed it enough to buy a couple of extra mags and stuff that I honestly didn't really need just to support the devs. I mainly continue to play Warframe not because it is so great in its current state, but because my friends are here and I still think it has potential to be really great if DE bucks up in certain places.

[Ratiasu]

To be fair, that sounds more like a glitch than a balancing factor of the weapon.

Still counts since it's been there since the Boltor got added. I'm not counting on it getting fixed sadly.

 

 

I forgot to add that they will be adding new end-game content soon. So we'll see how that goes. I don't expect a Braton or even mid-tier weapons to be cut out for that. End game content should require end-game weapons.