Rhino Is Not A Tank But A Juggernaut

[Zarozian]

Actually I don't Charge from cover to cover, that'd be silly. It's an answer to your question about how speed is needed for doing so though.

 

Why is speed important?

That's an excellent question...

Why does that question exist?

No one has been able to give a decent reason why this should be an issue.

We have established that balance based on run speed is a fallacy.

We've established that run speed buffs aren't necessary for Rhino as he has Charge.

So your guess is as good as mine.

 

Why do you think it's an issue?

 

 

The only value represented in speed is copter distance and crossing rooms faster.

It has no instrumental value in mission success or mission contribution otherwise.

 

Real issues would be more valuable as discussion material.

Like:

Why does Ember Prime only have 2 polarities as opposed to the 3 every prime has gotten?

Why no speed buffs for Frost?

Why no anything for Frost?

Why did they retire the Boar when they have a shortage of viable Shotguns available?

Why is Banshee geared toward keeping mobs at range but her ulti requires them to be close to her while she still takes damage?

What's going to get done to make Ash viable in high level content?

 

There's tons of really good and meaningful questions that need examination, but instead, the forum gets it's collective jimmies rustled about a supposed 10% increase in speed that may or may not be a typo.

 

Players right now are fixated on bringing everything down to some imaginary level of "same" and call it balance as long as it doesn't affect them.

You can see it in this thread..." Nerf Vanguard"... "Oh, I'm very familiar with Trinity and something needs to be done...I don't wanna talk about that, but nerf Vanguard"

Everyone wants to nerf something else... As long as it's not their own personal OP piece o' crap.

 

"Soma is for noobs, oughta be nerfed!" Coming outta the mouths of the exact same yahoos rockin' it in a mission 2 months ago.

 

Hypocrites...

 

 

So I'd say you have asked an excellent question whether you realized it or not.

 

For my part, I'm done on the subject. I hope someone can actually answer it for you.

 

I'm just tired of seeing the same forum posters stalk threads looking to nerf something that they don't use or makes them feel inadequate.

 

If we really wanted to go that route... let's just nerf it all down to Nekros level.

 

Then you'd have balance like a mofo.

Lol wow. But yes basically this^

 

Because I am kinda trying to do a mission here.

[HolidayPi3]

"Rhino is balanced.

His skill damage and defensive abilities are all hardcapped. His only scaling abilities are his primary damage buff and the 8 second slow from Stomp.

That's it...

The only deviance to that is Stomp Spam (which is relevant to run speed in what way exactly?), which is functionally no different from Bastille Spam, Link /Blessing Spam, M. Prime, etc.

 

Loki, Valkyr,Trinity,Vauban, Nova all scale and do so with more than the bulk of their skills." /Snip (quotes not working)

I’ll be honest—I totally missed this post. My apologies.

Yes, his Iron Skin and Stomp are both hard-capped, but they’re still more than enough to annihilate the majority of the game’s content. High level content (high wave defense & survival)—the area where scaling actually matters does not make up the majority of the game content. That is to say, the game isn’t balanced around it.

Loki scales because he’s built for utility with no damage or innate tankiness. He deserves his speed because he has no damage and isn't durable.

 

Valkyr scales because she can turn invincible… But be limited to using her horrid claw animation. Her amount of armor

also isn’t going to save her from high level enemies CCing her and then killing her while she’s on the ground. She deserves what little speed she has because she's melee oriented. Not that any of it matters because her claw animations are awful and serve as a self CC.

 

Trinity is pretty ridiculous. I honestly don’t agree with her. Invincibility and being able to essentially hit every enemy that’s anywhere near her with an auto aim Penta explosion… just no.

 

Vauban trades damage and durability for  his utility. Same as Loki, he has speed because he has laughable direct damage and isn't durable.

 

Nova shouldn’t have the CC aspect of her MPrime—she should be limited to damage. If that were the case, then she would be trading durability for CC for her damage. She would keep her speed because she's glass, to the point where Vigor isn't even useful on her because of poor bases.

 

Rhino doesn’t trade anything for what he has. He’s a jack of all trades… but is really good at everything. I would say he used to trade speed, but he’s got that now.

 

While one could argue that Rhino’s run speed is irrelevant because Rhino Charge or Zorencopters, Rhino players used to have to choose between mobility (power duration for Rhino Charge, (Narrow Minded -> less range for Stomp and Roar)), or damage (power strength for Stomp + Roar (Blind Rage -> lowered efficiency  -> countered by Fleeting Expertise -> lowered duration -> less speed).

As for Zorencopters, those dang things launch you so far that making quick, precise movements between cover or to avoid bombard / napalm shots is not very feasible. Sprinting into a slide is optimal for these situations. This is my take on how speed ties into combat capability and balance. You either dodge or take hits, and speed is the determinant. If speed didn’t matter in combat, then I wouldn’t really mind taking the hobbled key around so much.

Rhino was already able to take hits better than most frames-- so why is he now given the ability to dodge just as well as frames that can't take the hits?

Edited March 13, 2014 by HolidayPi3

[Silver_Fox75]

Rhino Master race approves

[Zarozian]

Rhino Master race approves

Hmm I really like your name.

[(PSN)IIvoltairII]

More speed makes no difference because we are already going faster than what the enemies can keep up with.

 

Less speed however is a difference because then some frames will fall behind or fail to dodge or make it in time to revive an ally or cc before it's too later.

I really like how all you have been saying is that speed has no effect on the game, then you post this... so as speed being literally his only drawback (inb4 you say SKILLZ R HARDCAPP3D, remember even mprime has damage falloff.) Rhino is just TOO GOOD AT EVERYTHING! He has 0 disadvantages at all.He needs at least something. By the way guns will ALWAYS do more damage than skills in endless modes.

[Noble_Cactus]

Yeah. Rhino can't CC as well as Vauban, he doesn't hit as hard as Nova, hes not invincible like Valkyr, and he can't heal like Oberon and can't tank like Trinity and he can't turn invisible and be Master Race like Loki.

 

He can only do what Juggernauts are supposed to do. =/

 

Which is what Rhino does best at. He has plenty of drawbacks, but most of them are made up with his weapons.

 

If you ask me hes the most balanced Juggernaut Warframe.

 

If there's one opinion posed by the OP that I can agree with, it's this. Though I wouldn't say he has "plenty of drawbacks." What Rhino has are working tools. They don't do their jobs as well as Bastille/Vortex/Chaos (AoE disable CC), M. Prime/Sonar (teamwide damage buff), etc. But they are useful to have nonetheless, and they make Rhino a flexible frame.

 

If anything, Rhino highlights just how mediocre half of the cast is. Why would we want to bring him down to that level? It solves nothing about existing class balance. Giving Ember, Saryn, Oberon, and friends more utility would do more for the game's long-term health than nerfing Rhino.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[gamefreak9149]

id be fine with this.

[Phoenix86]

Rhino isn't a tank

 

Trinity isn't a healer

 

Valkyr isn't a berserker

 

Nekros isn't a necromancer

 

Oberon isn't a paladin

 

Warframe isn't a Medieval RPG

 

I keep pressing +1 but it allows me to give you only one!

 

Finally someone who understands that in Warframe there are no classes like in common moorpg

[newnar]

Yea Rhino is balanced alright. Like how a cruise missile is perfectly balanced in 1846. The only way I see how Rhino is balanced is that he is equally overperforming in all areas a warframe can, he has no specialities because even his non-specialties are far better than the average of other frames.

If you replaced the word "Juggernaut" with "God", you will see that everything still holds consistency and it puts the situation into a bit more perspective.

[LOKIDENNIS]

Rhino isn't a tank

 

Trinity isn't a healer

 

Valkyr isn't a berserker

 

Nekros isn't a necromancer

 

Oberon isn't a paladin

 

Warframe isn't a Medieval RPG

 

Nyx is not a manipulator

 

Ash is not a ninja

 

Vauban is not an engineer

 

Frost is not Yeti

 

Zephyr is not a bird

 

Loki is not a clown!

[Ofiach]

This thread is a waste of space and should really be put up as an example in a Debate and/or Psych class. This thread is what happens when you argue with people who have serious mental handicaps. 

[Deidaku]

What, squishy loki dares disrespect Rhino, sneaky coward that hides in plain sight 

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

Last I checked, Warframe is a PvE game based on cooperation, not competition.

 

So anyway, how's a slow Rhino supposed to be able to save someone's &#! when they've run ahead of everyone else and then proceeded to get clobbered by a mob? It can't. Thanks to the the Vanguard helm, Rhino turns into a better support frame, plain and simple. With said helm, he's able to stay fairly close to faster frames and be able to charge to the rescue when things get really hairy. It helps players like me make sure that the mission is a success for everyone in it. I've had so many players thank me for being able to rez them in time when no one else was near or fast enough because my Vanguard helm helped get there before they died. Oh, you're welcome guys. 

 

So tell me "Master Race" players...how does the speed buff that the Vanguard helm confers to both Rhinos REALLY hurt the PvE gameplay that Warframe is built around again? Hrmmmm? 

 

I think all this whining about Rhino Prime's speed and the Vanguard helm has more to do with a sense of entitlement and elitism on the part of Loki players rather than with any real concerns about "balance".

 

And on a side note, I've picked up a good number of Lokis off the floor within seconds of dying that decided to charge ahead of everyone else. I'm quite sure they'd have not wanted me to wear my Vanguard helm then...

 

Wow, that's quite a crock of S#&$.

 

No frame should have the staying power, CC, damage and speed. Rhino does, there's the problem. Why play anything else when you can pick Rhino and run through the game laughing?

 

And the PvE argument is also bull, no one with half a brain should use it. If the "master race" wants to run off and get downed, then that's their problem, maybe next time they'll not run off in front of the Rhino brick wall, when they have to expend revives. That does not justify the bacon helm giving Rhino 25% speed boost. No other helm in the game gives that lvl of benefit. 

 

Is Rhino(not prime) too slow currently? Yes, but that goes for Frost (both) and Saryn, a 0.9 speed wasn't a good idea, increasing it to 1.0 is fine, just not when the frame has access to a 25% speed boost.

[Nemorac]

I'll agree that the 'bacon helm" as people have taken to calling it might be a bit excessive on the speed buff, and yes his CC abilities and other powers tend to be on the damaging side to where he can run through anything short of a "good ol' T3 survival" or some crock like that.  But I WILL argue that Rhino seems to be built around SUPPORT.  It's mainly the fact that the rest of the game/his abilities aren't balanced enough around that to help reinforce that.

 

The reason I say he's supposed to be Support is as follows:
1) Iron Skin:  No damage taken until they get through it, and draws aggro from enemies.

2) Rhino Stomp:  Stuns (and really, to reinforce the Support feature, and I KNOW people are gonna gripe about this, it should be STUN only, or at least a nerf in damage) all nearby targets, allowing Rhino to revive allies.

3) Roar:  Buffing his own and his allies' damages, allowing them to cut through the enemies more effectively.

 

Now, let's look at the, as the OP says, "Old" moniker of Rhino, being the "Tank" warframe.  Tanks, in any MMO setting, are designed to *gasp* Draw aggro and take a bunch of damage.  Rhino's slowness made him ill-suited initially for BEING a Tank because everyone would run ahead of him.  What good is a tank if he's in the back?  That's why Rhino's Vanguard helm gives the boost it gives, so he can BE A TANK. 

 

Now, the main argument I've seen here is him having the normal 1.0 running speed + the vanguard helm, which would make him tie with a Loki for fastest frame currently, would break things because people "Wouldn't use anything else".  To that argument, I say BULL CRAP.  I myself started out with Loki.  I currently have all frames that are obtainable in game sans Rhino Prime.  Do I use my Rhino?  Yes.  Do I have him with a Vanguard helm?  Yes.  Do I exclusively use Rhino?  NO.  I choose the frame I'm going to used based on:

 

A) What I'm running

B) What others are running (If it's a pre-grouped mission)

C) What I feel like using at the time.

 

If I'm going on a Corpus mission, I bring my Volt.  If I'm running a Defense mission, I tend to bring Frost Prime unless someone else brings him.  ODD: Vauban or Nekros.  Survival: Nekros or something else if I don't feel like Desecrate-spamming.  There's enough game types, and enough roles that need to be filled in various areas, for Rhino Prime to NEVER be the exclusive, be-all end-all choice.  I'm sorry I just can't see a team of Four Rhino Primes being able to go in a T3 Defense for very long.  I don't care how they do it, eventually they're gonna be short energy, they can't Stomp, and the Pod's gonna go boom.

 

I honestly don't see it being that much of a problem.  The only problem I see is A) people rushing, which they do already, and B) People using it for Nightmare Mod alerts, which *gasp* they ALREADY do.  Seriously, no shields being the norm just begs for Rhino or possibly Valkyr to be used.

[ChileanWarpig]

Rhino isn't a tank

 

Trinity isn't a healer

 

Valkyr isn't a berserker

 

Nekros isn't a necromancer

 

Oberon isn't a paladin

 

Warframe isn't a Medieval RPG

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

I'll agree that the 'bacon helm" as people have taken to calling it might be a bit excessive on the speed buff, and yes his CC abilities and other powers tend to be on the damaging side to where he can run through anything short of a "good ol' T3 survival" or some crock like that.  But I WILL argue that Rhino seems to be built around SUPPORT.  It's mainly the fact that the rest of the game/his abilities aren't balanced enough around that to help reinforce that.

 

The reason I say he's supposed to be Support is as follows:

1) Iron Skin:  No damage taken until they get through it, and draws aggro from enemies.

2) Rhino Stomp:  Stuns (and really, to reinforce the Support feature, and I KNOW people are gonna gripe about this, it should be STUN only, or at least a nerf in damage) all nearby targets, allowing Rhino to revive allies.

3) Roar:  Buffing his own and his allies' damages, allowing them to cut through the enemies more effectively.

 

Now, let's look at the, as the OP says, "Old" moniker of Rhino, being the "Tank" warframe.  Tanks, in any MMO setting, are designed to *gasp* Draw aggro and take a bunch of damage.  Rhino's slowness made him ill-suited initially for BEING a Tank because everyone would run ahead of him.  What good is a tank if he's in the back?  That's why Rhino's Vanguard helm gives the boost it gives, so he can BE A TANK. 

 

Now, the main argument I've seen here is him having the normal 1.0 running speed + the vanguard helm, which would make him tie with a Loki for fastest frame currently, would break things because people "Wouldn't use anything else".  To that argument, I say BULL CRAP.  I myself started out with Loki.  I currently have all frames that are obtainable in game sans Rhino Prime.  Do I use my Rhino?  Yes.  Do I have him with a Vanguard helm?  Yes.  Do I exclusively use Rhino?  NO.  I choose the frame I'm going to used based on:

 

A) What I'm running

B) What others are running (If it's a pre-grouped mission)

C) What I feel like using at the time.

 

If I'm going on a Corpus mission, I bring my Volt.  If I'm running a Defense mission, I tend to bring Frost Prime unless someone else brings him.  ODD: Vauban or Nekros.  Survival: Nekros or something else if I don't feel like Desecrate-spamming.  There's enough game types, and enough roles that need to be filled in various areas, for Rhino Prime to NEVER be the exclusive, be-all end-all choice.  I'm sorry I just can't see a team of Four Rhino Primes being able to go in a T3 Defense for very long.  I don't care how they do it, eventually they're gonna be short energy, they can't Stomp, and the Pod's gonna go boom.

 

I honestly don't see it being that much of a problem.  The only problem I see is A) people rushing, which they do already, and B) People using it for Nightmare Mod alerts, which *gasp* they ALREADY do.  Seriously, no shields being the norm just begs for Rhino or possibly Valkyr to be used.

 

Whether he's support or not is neither here nor there really, when you look at his powers, they're on the strong side. But he's not room nuking OP like someone else I know. The real issue is he should not be eligible to acquire on Venus, the second planet in, that is not good. He's easy and cheap to make and only needs xp rank 2 to unlock. 

 

So because the certain players can't tell their arse from their elbow, and tear off at the first opportunity the game should allow something which can end up with over 1000 shields, on demand shield (Iron skin) a 50% damage boost, CC of 8 seconds with Stomp, and charge for good measure. Running as fast as Loki? Wow, that's complacent reasoning.

 

I don't see the damage of Stomp as a key issue as it's pretty meh past lvl 30, and unless you gimp the range or duration with corrupt mods the damage drops of fast compared to the likes of MP, AMD etc.

 

Rhino isn't support, he's a jack of all trades, he doesn't need to support characters, so the argument of, "he needs to be as fast to keep up with the other frames" is crap. Trinity, the epitome of a dedicated support frame, seems to manage well enough with a 1.0 speed, so why does Rhino need to be so much faster again? If you are actually justifying a 25% speed increase for no drawback, when the likes of Saryn only receives 10% you've torpedoed your credibility. At no point should Rhino have been given a 25% speed boost. 

 

If you can't see a team of 4 Rhino's doing t3 defence then you clearly haven't played T3 defence enough, or you're talking about lvl 60+ because I've done T3 defence with a team of Rhino's and they really don't suffer that much. It's certainly easier with damage dealing frames, but then again so is everything, so what point were you trying to make? That Rhino can't do T3 defence? So he's not that powerful and should keep the 25% speed boost? Yeah, that 50% damage buff doesn't count for anything, does it. And if you're running T3, most of the people doing it are going to be packing some very high lvl equipment and mods... like energy siphon. 

 

Actually how does anything you said about T3 defence have a bearing on Rhino's speed? What was your point about T3 defence? Defence is the one mission where his speed has little impact on his performance, with or without the Bacon helm. 

 

By your reasoning Volt's drawbacks vs the Grineer should be removed, people will use powerful weapons to shoot them anyway so what does it matter if power types have no impact on the enemy. Hell if they weren't trying to curtail rushing, why did they put the Corpus laser door (which can be bypassed by sliding, bravo guys) and the new Grineer exploding light things in? 

Edited March 14, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[Thaumatos]

Loki enters.

Master Race frame disapproves.

Loki enters...but is invisible.

 

No one can see his tears.

[Lorche]

You know, this problen can easily solved if the all of the Prime version of warframes can't use the alternate helmet of its 'cheap' version.

 

Rhino Prime can keep his speedbuff, Vanguard helmet can stick to Rhino and Rhino only.

Everyone happy. Problem solved

Edited March 14, 2014 by Lorche

[X3Evanescence]

It only has been like what? A day?

*come back*

Whoa!

Since when this thread become such a discussion? Stuff are getting more heated too.

[fatpig84]

Lolwut ?

Fact is.

 

Rhino with a min duration build is that can easily compete or be better than plenty of CC oriented frames.

He sends them a float for 2.7 seconds.

BUT they will fall down and have to get up.

So that is effectively close to a 5 second stun.

 

Except the No cast timer is still stuck at 2.7 seconds.

So Rhino can stun again before they even get up (although that seems like a waste).

 

 

Nyx

Chaos on a min duration build has a 10 second re-cast timer. Enough to get her in trouble when she needs it.

This is very common on overextended builds.

 

Thankfully a short duration + Over extended build is usually specced for Absorb.

So she probably wants them shooting at her rather than shooting each other.

 

Long duration Chaos can be detrimental if someone is just stuck in a map corner and is under the effects of a 30 seconds Chaos.... 

 

 

Excalibur

Radial Blind has a 5 second no re-cast timer.

And it does not stop infested (especially toxins) from charging forward still.

 

 

Loki

Radial disarm only stuns targets for 2 seconds. But is spammable.

But I consider them tied since RD has nearly no effect on infested.

 

And Loki loses his get out of jail card with a disarm build.

Combining narrow minded and Over extended gives you a jack of all trades Loki, but he won't be able to disarm as effectively as pure specced disarm loki. And you probably have to drop another mod (stretch  / rush etc) too which is a no no.

 

So there IS a big difference in performance. 

 

 

Ember

Accelerant again a very short stun like Loki. Around 3 seconds.

But even with min duration, she still has a 6 second window before re-cast.

So lol nope.

 

 

Frost

OH shi....JK he can't freeze for even 5 seconds now lawl !

 

Nek

Terrify. Bleh target limit.

Shadows of the dead.

Unless you are power str specced (which screws desecrate). you don't have enough shadows to do anything much.

Not to mention, they are all timer and numbers affected.

 

 

 

And I am sure the list goes on.

So only real frames that beat him in CC is Nova (but that is because she can deal damage and slow) and Vauban.

So please, don't tell me Rhino CC is bad.

 

He has durability on top of power.

In fact I have ran an over-extended + stretch stomp Rhino, he is almost overpowered in that CC based build.

Even if you don't want to sacrifice Roar and Iron skin, the regular non-over extended build is just as good.

Edited March 14, 2014 by fatpig84

[Nemorac]

Whether he's support or not is neither here nor there really, when you look at his powers, they're on the strong side. But he's not room nuking OP like someone else I know. The real issue is he should not be eligible to acquire on Venus, the second planet in, that is not good. He's easy and cheap to make and only needs xp rank 2 to unlock. 

 

So because the certain players can't tell their arse from their elbow, and tear off at the first opportunity the game should allow something which can end up with over 1000 shields, on demand shield (Iron skin) a 50% damage boost, CC of 8 seconds with Stomp, and charge for good measure. Running as fast as Loki? Wow, that's complacent reasoning.

 

I don't see the damage of Stomp as a key issue as it's pretty meh past lvl 30, and unless you gimp the range or duration with corrupt mods the damage drops of fast compared to the likes of MP, AMD etc.

 

Rhino isn't support, he's a jack of all trades, he doesn't need to support characters, so the argument of, "he needs to be as fast to keep up with the other frames" is crap. Trinity, the epitome of a dedicated support frame, seems to manage well enough with a 1.0 speed, so why does Rhino need to be so much faster again? If you are actually justifying a 25% speed increase for no drawback, when the likes of Saryn only receives 10% you've torpedoed your credibility. At no point should Rhino have been given a 25% speed boost. 

 

If you can't see a team of 4 Rhino's doing t3 defence then you clearly haven't played T3 defence enough, or you're talking about lvl 60+ because I've done T3 defence with a team of Rhino's and they really don't suffer that much. It's certainly easier with damage dealing frames, but then again so is everything, so what point were you trying to make? That Rhino can't do T3 defence? So he's not that powerful and should keep the 25% speed boost? Yeah, that 50% damage buff doesn't count for anything, does it. And if you're running T3, most of the people doing it are going to be packing some very high lvl equipment and mods... like energy siphon. 

 

Actually how does anything you said about T3 defence have a bearing on Rhino's speed? What was your point about T3 defence? Defence is the one mission where his speed has little impact on his performance, with or without the Bacon helm. 

 

By your reasoning Volt's drawbacks vs the Grineer should be removed, people will use powerful weapons to shoot them anyway so what does it matter if power types have no impact on the enemy. Hell if they weren't trying to curtail rushing, why did they put the Corpus laser door (which can be bypassed by sliding, bravo guys) and the new Grineer exploding light things in? 

 

If you see, I did agree that the Vanguard helmet was too much.  The main point I was trying to make was the speed buff isn't going to make Rhino the end-all of frames.  Rushing is one of those things that's going to happen.  yes, DE is trying to curtail rushing, and I'm not saying frames should not have drawbacks.

 

The point I was making with T3 Defense, which you kind of made yourself, was that there are frames that can do things better, like Nova for CC, Frost for defending the pods, etc.  It's one of those things that while the speed is too much, I don't think that it's going to be game-breaking.  Rushers are going to rush, there's nothing we can do about it.  If Rhino IS going to be buffed for speed like he has been in his Prime version, why not normalize the speed for everyone?

 

And honestly, I'm all for the helmets being purely cosmetic.  I love my Volt being able to do more damage with his Storm helm, but the helmets need to be an all-or-nothing deal: Either all the frames get stat-changing helms, or none of them should.  Keeping the old helm's stats just because they had been stat-helms before doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

If you see, I did agree that the Vanguard helmet was too much.  The main point I was trying to make was the speed buff isn't going to make Rhino the end-all of frames.  Rushing is one of those things that's going to happen.  yes, DE is trying to curtail rushing, and I'm not saying frames should not have drawbacks.

 

The point I was making with T3 Defense, which you kind of made yourself, was that there are frames that can do things better, like Nova for CC, Frost for defending the pods, etc.  It's one of those things that while the speed is too much, I don't think that it's going to be game-breaking.  Rushers are going to rush, there's nothing we can do about it.  If Rhino IS going to be buffed for speed like he has been in his Prime version, why not normalize the speed for everyone?

 

And honestly, I'm all for the helmets being purely cosmetic.  I love my Volt being able to do more damage with his Storm helm, but the helmets need to be an all-or-nothing deal: Either all the frames get stat-changing helms, or none of them should.  Keeping the old helm's stats just because they had been stat-helms before doesn't make a lot of sense IMO.

 

The problem with Rhino Prime is not the 1.0 speed boost, I keep saying this, I'd actually advocate buffing the Vanilla Rhino, both Frosts and Saryn all to a 1.0 sprint speed, they're currently frustratingly slow. The Vanguard Helm however, should not exist, it should not be giving a 25% increase in speed. A little OP? A little? It gives 25% boost in return for -5% power strength, which doesn't even scratch Rhino's abilities. Hell, unless one is stacking corrupt mods, you don't use Stomp for damage beyond lvl 30. By comparison Saryn, gets a 10% speed boost in return for a -5% negative effect. Frost, Frost doesn't get a speed boost, which is okay, he seems more a defensively oriented CC with his powers. 

 

If DE wants to keep a speed boost on the Vanguard, bringing down to 10%. It's currently moronic (also the Thrak helm, is just bad, giving +25 HP for a speed reduction, if it was 25% maybe, but at the moment no, just no. Hence it's a given anyone using Rhino will equip the Vanguard.)

 

What are you on about? Nova for CC? That's another one. At no point should Nova have had a 50% debuff for CC, she's a nuker, so let her act like one. 200% damage buff, fine, Magnified damage on AMD, eh a little on the high side, but it's okay, chain explosions in MP, yep that's fine, Null star being able to cause critical hits... eh okay, tentatively. But .5 speed decrease? No. She should not have that as it grants her DPS, damage buffs and debuffs with CC. That is poor balancing which is why MP is possibly the most maligned power at the moment, which was only made worse by how it became so easy to chain explode an entire spawn due to the ensuing cluster F*** which resulted. 

 

People say Stomp is OP, IMO it doesn't even come close to the utility of Nova's MP, good power, but not OP, throw in the Vanguard's 25% buff and you'll have a frame with the best staying power, maybe bar Valkyr, some of the best CC, and decent damage moving at the speed of a Loki, and people don't see that as a problem?

 

Frost, well Frost would be good for defensive CC... if his powers were actually useful. We'll see how SG goes, but really, Avalanche? pfffft, Freeze? Pffffft. You know it's bad when Volt's shock and Overload can CC better than a supposed dedicated CC frame like Frost. And Volt, the "alternative to gunplay" lacks effective damage powers which would allow him to do so, but they are instead found on Nova...a Nuker, who can be used effectively for CC... Yeah, Warframe has balance and design issues up the wazoo at the moment... I'm shocked that none of this has been pointed out, or if it has it's just been clearly ignored.

 

If you are going to normalise the speed for everyone, then why bother playing a Loki, or any lighter frame? When the proverbial crap hits the fan, those frames need to get the hell out, Loki has the advantage of the deception and distracting skills, but the likes of Nyx and Volt have the durability of a chocolate tea cup, Nyx saved only by her Absorb/ Chaos, Volt is screwed, maybe saved by the 100% stun proc on his powers, Vauban, screwed unless he can get a Vortex off in time, Mag, in trouble etc.. Which is fine, they're CC (well Volt isn't but that's another issue entirely) so if they get caught in the middle of a firefight because they ran off, they deserve to go down, they're not designed to go toe to toe with a whole spawn.

 

Rhino, can tank the damage at the drop of a hat. Stomp and Iron Skin give him incredible staying power cutting all incoming DPS and granting on demand shields. That durability and jack of all trades power doesn't need to be nerfed, but there's got to be a drawback. Given he can achieve over 1000 shield and HP, has 200 armour, average power capacity, and a damage boost of 50%, the only thing left is his speed which fits in given Stomp and Iron skin, given Rhino can't get his fat arse out of trouble fast enough he has to be able to survive it long enough for help to arrive or to deal his own damage. the Bacon helm blows that out of the water. Given the 25% speed increase, he's got all the benefits and none of the drawbacks. 

 

What you're suggesting is that as rushers are going to rush anyway why bother fixing something that is clearly unbalanced. Because people will do it anyway. That is why I say, why bother using anything else? Rhino with the bacon helm is easily the most efficient frame outside of Nova. It'll do the same job as a CC well enough, with a damage buff and better survivability, and it's just as fast, if not faster. 

 

You should not be able to have a frame, like Rhino, CC, a damage buff power and survivability and still want the same speed as a light frame. Just like nukers should have damage and buffs, but not have CC. Like direct damage frames such as Volt (needs more damage) should not expect high armour when they have their speed, shields and powers to stun and damage. You should not be able to get it all. which with certain frames you can. 

 

And while I realise I am criticising DE's decisions, but they can either bury their heads in the sand and pretend that things are fine, or acknowledge that this game has issues, some of which have been caused by their own design choices. 

 

Edit: 

 

We'll see how the new Focus system works, and if they're going to strip the helmet stats when they implement it. If they don't, well, why bother explaining things anymore, power creep will render the game a pointless mess. The domain of ego stroking elitists who measure their e peen against one another because they can hit lvl 70+ in endless defence. 

Edited March 14, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[RadMystical]

Juggernauts for ever... No, not that juggernaut, Rhino's.

Edited March 14, 2014 by RadMystical

[Cwierz]

Run speed doesn't affect balance.

Wow, my respect for this community just dropped, again.

Do we really have people who think like this?

Holy crap.

[Nadhua]

Of course Rhino runs fast, have you seen those thighs?

Edited March 15, 2014 by Nadhua