Rhino Is Not A Tank But A Juggernaut

[Zarozian]

Why does iron skin draw aggro then? Learn to tank.

It's "Learn to Survive" not "Learn to Tank".

[Otaiken]

I agree.

 

Which is another reason why they shouldn't touch anything.

 

If you think the Loki Master Race crew is bad or the current heat that's in these forums right now.

 

Wait till you &!$$ off the whole horde.

 

Besides a little extra speed on the Rhino Prime was to appease the Rhino users, if you take their helmet or that 0.1 speed away from Rhino Prime.

 

You can expect a Titan-Burning-S#&$Storm of Rhino fanatics, players, and fans, as well as the egotic guys, the cocky arrogant guys, the logistics, the cognistics, the soloers, the hardcore players, the saviors, and 40% of the Warframe population.

 

Not only is arguing to keep Rhino Prime's speed and Vanguard helmet easy, there is hardly a good reason to take it away.

 

And it it does get taken away. 

 

Expect Something To Happen.

 

So you're essentially part of the problem then. Instead of removing the one big imbalancing factor.. one that is no longer available to other frames (since there's no more stat helmets) you opt to keep the status quo. With the removal of the last helmet stats DE could actually start balancing the damn game. But nooooo.... it would make the big burly Rhino users cry hence we've got to avoid that.

 

Especially the threat at the end is pretty cute. What are you gonna do? Roar in anger? I'll tell you exactly what would happen.. there would be some crying and whining and in three weeks everybody would forget about the whole thing... there, that's splinter removed. It's not like Rhino has been nerfed and buffed multiple ti.. oh wait...

Edited March 12, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[HolidayPi3]

What difference would having a drawback make?

 

You are simply disliking the fact that Rhino is as fast as Loki are you not?

 

If you truly consider adding 0.1 speed to Rhino removing his drawback, then you don't know what Rhino's drawback is, and you are simply arguing about because you simply wish to make people who play Rhino or has Rhino Prime very unhappy.

 

But having more speed makes no difference at all, it's having less speed that does make a difference.

So if Rhino's drawback wasn't speed, then you tell me what it is. You haven't answered a number of my points, nor told me where I contradicted myself. I do dislike the fact that Rhino is as fast as Loki because Rhino is not a frame that deserves to be fast. He doesn't have the paper thin defenses that justifies other frame's speed. He has a number of things going for him-- namely utility and damage that is enough to clear a majority of the game. Now he has speed, the one factor that kept his utility and damage justified.

You even just stated that his "lack of drawbacks" is his strength. That's not balanced.

What difference would having a drawback make? He would be balanced. God forbid.

At the moment, your argument is:

"You're just a hater! You only want Rhino changed back because you don't like Rhino players and Rhino!"

No, I'm just in favor of game balance.

Edited March 12, 2014 by HolidayPi3

[Zarozian]

So you're essentially part of the problem then. Instead of removing the one big imbalancing factor.. one that is no longer available to other frames (since there's no more stat helmets) you opt to keep the status quo. With the removal of the last helmet stats DE could actually start balancing the damn game. But nooooo.... it would make the big burly Rhino users cry hence we've got to avoid that.

 

Especially the threat at the end is pretty cute. What are you gonna do? Roar in anger? I'll tell you exactly what would happen.. there would be some crying and whining and in three weeks everybody would forget about the whole thing... there, that's splinter removed. It's not like Rhino has been nerfed and buffed multiple ti.. oh wait...

I actually do agree with you.

 

I am probably part of the problem why they shouldn't remove what they have already implemented.

 

But I'm the more calm and reasonable one. Why thank you for pointing that out though fellow reasonable Rhino user.

 

And I think that little joke at the end was cute too.

 

Hes only been nerfed. Like twice basically and the only buff he got was in his Prime.

[Zarozian]

So if Rhino's drawback wasn't speed, then you tell me what it is. You haven't answered a number of my points, nor told me where I contradicted myself. I do dislike the fact that Rhino is as fast as Loki because Rhino is not a frame that deserves to be fast. He doesn't have the paper thin defenses that justifies other frame's speed. He has a number of things going for him-- namely utility and damage that is enough to clear a majority of the game. Now he has speed, the one factor that kept his utility and damage justified.

What difference would having a drawback make? He would be balanced. God forbid.

His damage and offensive abilities are his main drawback.

 

If they gave him more power strength in exchange for that 0.1 extra sprint speed then I'd be fine with that.

 

Before you bring Roar into this, I'd like to point out that's a support ability.

 

All his skills and stats points toward survivalbility as Rhinos main factor and role.

[Otaiken]

I actually do agree with you.

 

I am probably part of the problem why they shouldn't remove what they have already implemented.

 

But I'm the more calm and reasonable one. Why thank you for pointing that out though fellow reasonable Rhino user.

 

And I think that little joke at the end was cute too.

 

Hes only been nerfed. Like twice basically and the only buff he got was in his Prime.

 

Oh yeah... don't remove that cause it would cause a riot... very calm and reasonable. Don't remove a thing that was already implemented? DE removed a ton of things they implemented and a lot of them to the benefit of the game. And Rhino has been buffed multiple times, just like he was nerfed multiple times. Then he got a new skillset which I consider a net buff. Prime version could actually be a buff were it not for the $&*&*#(%& helmet. Because then you could give him decent speed boost (hell, maybe even make base Rhino 1.0 along with Frost) without having to worry about players stacking it with some antiqated piece of headgear AND mods.

 

Defending this just hurts Rhino in hte long run.. should DE decide to slow Rhino in order to balance for the existence of the helmet.. but then people would complain that it's mandatory and JKSHKJDAFLDAFJKCASLC AAARGHHH!! Remove the fing helmet stats already DE.. FFS!

Edited March 12, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[taiiat]

The nerf in its speed isn't necessary. There is always a trade off.  

 

Whether it be appearance or power.

did... you just say the tradeoff and disadvantage to Vanguard is simply cosmetic? that isn't a disadvantage.

 

I never saw this argument with Volt's Speed buff was himself only making him the outright fastest.

Volt uses some Energy to make himself faster for a medium duration. that's fine. he uses a Resource for it. 

Speed also isn't invulnerable to Duration Mods. no powers should ignore Mods. that's a big core of the problem of creating frames that have no drawbacks.

 

And it it does get taken away. 

 

Expect Something To Happen.

if you can't understand the reason for balancing the field so it appears flat enough for players to think about choice, you need not take part in it, as you only slow the process down.

 

but freely threatening Digital Extremes shows your now undeniable incompetence. i don't like personal attacks, but you've asked for it on a sign flying in the sky.

 

 

Hes only been nerfed. Like twice basically and the only buff he got was in his Prime.

and is still more than a jack of all trades.

 

His damage and offensive abilities are his main drawback.

800 Damage to an infinite number of Enemies in a massive radius, is not a drawback. 

Stomp actually deals Damage twice inside 15 metres of that 25.

that makes Rhino superior in Damage Output to almost any other frame. because that means inside the same range as most other powers have, he does more Damage than them, and only slightly less than most of them outside of that range.

[HolidayPi3]

His damage and offensive abilities are his main drawback.

 

If they gave him more power strength in exchange for that 0.1 extra sprint speed then I'd be fine with that.

 

Before you bring Roar into this, I'd like to point out that's a support ability.

 

All his skills and stats points toward survivalbility as Rhinos main factor and role.

The fact that he can clear out the majority of game content with stomp or, failing that, a roar + stomp combo isn't a drawback. Why should roar be excluded? It's part of his kit and it synergizes with his offensive capabilities. Even when he doesn't kill them outright, they're frozen by stomp's CC portion and you can use the remainder of your roar buff to kill them with your guns.

And before you say "but high level endless content!" That content is an outlier in regards to the rest of the game. The majority of the game takes place sub level 40. If he becomes 'balanced' by the time he hits this outlier content, then he's an outlier.

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

Excuse me? Speed doesn't affect defence or offence? I must be playing completely different game then. Speed makes absolutely HUGE difference. Especially against Grineer and their hitscan weapons. You can run from cover to cover much faster hence taking less fire, it's very important for melee too as you take less fire and can move from target to target quicker.. there is your offence aspect. There's such a thing as gap closing when it comes to melee weapons.. and it's pretty important.

 

Take Frost which is pretty tanky but very sluggish. Every Grineer in the room and their cat will unload two clips into you before you cross some of the bigger rooms... not much of a point in having more shields if you are gonna take more hits. There lies the problem with Rhino... he's tanky AND very fast. So he's gonna eat considerably less fire than Frost for example.

 

I don't know what's your playstyle like, but speed is more important to me than energy on most frames and there's a considerable increase in survivability whenever I switch from slow frame to fast frame.. even without abilities factoring in (I often forget to use abilities for the entire mission lol). Speed not being balancing factor is ridiculous notion to me. Now whether it should be one is another thing.. but that's whole other discussion.

Gonna back to the lab and come up with a better answer bud....

 

Hint: Rhino has been able to address the scenario you described since he was introduced. It's his first skill.

 

All your argument does is support my stance that Frost needs a movement speed buff.

 

Run speed doesn't affect balance, Run speed also doesn't make his Rhino's Charge.

 

If it did, you and everyone else would have a valid point to base an argument around.

 

As it stands, right now there isn't one.

 

Unless "Just 'Cuz" is to be considered a valid argument now.

[Zarozian]

did... you just say the tradeoff and disadvantage to Vanguard is simply cosmetic? that isn't a disadvantage.

 

Volt uses some Energy to make himself faster for a medium duration. that's fine. he uses a Resource for it. 

Speed also isn't invulnerable to Duration Mods. no powers should ignore Mods. that's a big core of the problem of creating frames that have no drawbacks.

 

if you can't understand the reason for balancing the field so it appears flat enough for players to think about choice, you need not take part in it, as you only slow the process down.

 

but freely threatening Digital Extremes shows your now undeniable incompetence. i don't like personal attacks, but you've asked for it on a sign flying in the sky.

 

 

and is still more than a jack of all trades.

 

800 Damage to an infinite number of Enemies in a massive radius, is not a drawback. 

Stomp actually deals Damage twice inside 15 metres of that 25.

that makes Rhino superior in Damage Output to almost any other frame. because that means inside the same range as most other powers have, he does more Damage than them, and only slightly less than most of them outside of that range.

 

 

The fact that he can clear out the majority of game content with stomp or, failing that, a roar + stomp combo isn't a drawback. Why should roar be excluded? It's part of his kit and it synergizes with his offensive capabilities. Even when he doesn't kill them outright, they're frozen by stomp's CC portion and you can use the remainder of your roar buff to kill them with your guns.

And before you say "but high level endless content!" That content is an outlier in regards to the rest of the game. The majority of the game takes place sub level 40. If he becomes 'balanced' by the time he hits this outlier content, then he's an outlier.

 

Then there's no reason to nerf him.

 

Hes a perfect frame and does what he does best that no other frame can do, you could say that: THE KING IS BACK!

 

I personally can't wait till they come out with that end-game content with the Focus Lens, now that hes up there with Vauban and Loki.

 

Now they only need to focus on fixing the other frames.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Zarozian

[Zarozian]

Gonna back to the lab and come up with a better answer bud....

 

Hint: Rhino has been able to address the scenario you described since he was introduced. It's his first skill.

 

All your argument does is support my stance that Frost needs a movement speed buff.

 

Run speed doesn't affect balance, Run speed also doesn't make his Rhino's Charge.

 

If it did, you and everyone else would have a valid point to base an argument around.

 

As it stands, right now there isn't one.

 

Unless "Just 'Cuz" is to be considered a valid argument now.

I'm also with this guy^ 

 

Especially on the Frost part. I feel bad cause back then it was an all out Rhino VS Frost, but then these new guys came along, and then the nerfs came, and look at us now....

 

Then finally Rhino Prime came and everything got better for us.

[taiiat]

Then there's no reason to nerf him.

 

Hes a perfect frame

the contradiction is very strong with this one.

 

and at this point, you're not having any amount of discussion anymore, just spamming to get your post count up - for whatever reason.

 

edit:

Rhino has been able to address the scenario you described since he was introduced. It's his first skill.

yes, and that's fine! Slash Dash also improves mobility. and that's fine because it has a casting time and it uses Energy. the power is not also immune to Duration Mods, as well as other Mod effects. 

 

that makes using Charge for Mobility a completely fair factor.

Edited March 12, 2014 by taiiat

[Otaiken]

Gonna back to the lab and come up with a better answer bud....

 

Hint: Rhino has been able to address the scenario you described since he was introduced. It's his first skill.

 

All your argument does is support my stance that Frost needs a movement speed buff.

 

Run speed doesn't affect balance, Run speed also doesn't make his Rhino's Charge.

 

If it did, you and everyone else would have a valid point to base an argument around.

 

As it stands, right now there isn't one.

 

Unless "Just 'Cuz" is to be considered a valid argument now.

 

You know.. it's really nice theory that Rhino would simply charge from cover to cover or from enemy to enemy spending energy along the way. You might find that in practice it might be a little less convenient than you might think. I never said that Frost didn't need a movement speed buff. And my official stance btw is not to nerf Rhino.. but to remove Vanguard helmet stats (and helmet stats in general). I would say that Frost is pretty much inferior to Rhino in every way atm.. and the fact that he is so slow without having access to any speed improving trinket seems rather unfair.

 

And speed is valuable, otherwise Vanguard wouldn't be such a great deal. If speed doesn't matter why does this topic even exist then?

Edited March 12, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Zarozian]

the contradiction is very strong with this one.

 

and at this point, you're not having any amount of discussion anymore, just spamming to get your post count up - for whatever reason.

Nah if you read the whole thread.

 

A lot of people including you and I have been arguing around in circles.

 

At this point I have gotten lazy.

 

Give it till tomorrow and I will put up more reasonable statements and arguments that will convince you otherwise over to my side.

[Zarozian]

You know.. it's really nice theory that Rhino would simply charge from cover to cover or from enemy to enemy spending energy along the way. You might find that in practice it might be a little less convenient than you might think. I never said that Frost didn't need a movement speed buff. And my official stance btw is not to nerf Rhino.. but to remove Vanguard helmet stats (and helmet stats in general). I would say that Frost is pretty much inferior to Rhino in every way atm.. and the fact that he is so slow without having access to any speed improving trinket seems rather unfair.

 

And speed is valuable, otherwise Vanguard wouldn't be such a great deal. If speed doesn't matter why does this topic even exist then?

More speed makes no difference because we are already going faster than what the enemies can keep up with.

 

Less speed however is a difference because then some frames will fall behind or fail to dodge or make it in time to revive an ally or cc before it's too later.

[Otaiken]

Nah if you read the whole thread.

 

A lot of people including you and I have been arguing around in circles.

 

At this point I have gotten lazy.

 

Give it till tomorrow and I will put up more reasonable statements and arguments that will convince you otherwise over to my side.

 

What you're doing is more like lobbying than arguing to be honest. You even start the thread by trying to "rebrand" Rhino.

[AfroGamerNinja]

You know.. it's really nice theory that Rhino would simply charge from cover to cover or from enemy to enemy spending energy along the way. You might find that in practice it might be a little less convenient than you might think. I never said that Frost didn't need a movement speed buff. And my official stance btw is not to nerf Rhino.. but to remove Vanguard helmet stats (and helmet stats in general). I would say that Frost is pretty much inferior to Rhino in every way atm.. and the fact that he is so slow without having access to any speed improving trinket seems rather unfair.

 

And speed is valuable, otherwise Vanguard wouldn't be such a great deal. If speed doesn't matter why does this topic even exist then?

 

Then maybe replace one of Frost's skills with an ice slide?

[taiiat]

A lot of people including you and I have been arguing around in circles.

no, just you. we're giving you hard facts, and numbers to back it up, and your reasons sum up to 'not a tank and he can be the best at everything because i want him to be'.

 

you outright admit than Rhino is the best at everything, and then 5 seconds later you will say he's balanced because he has drawbacks. 

 

make. up. your. mind. it's physically impossible to be both of those things at the same time. saying the opposite to every statement as a cop out excuse to not need to look at problems and address them is extremely wasteful of the time spent trying to actually improve Warframe. 

Edited March 12, 2014 by taiiat

[HolidayPi3]

Then there's no reason to nerf him.

 

Hes a perfect frame and does what he does best that no other frame can do, you could say that: THE KING IS BACK!

 

I personally can't wait till they come out with that end-game content with the Focus Lens, now that hes up there with Vauban and Loki.

 

Now they only need to focus on fixing the other frames.

So you do admit that Rhino has no drawbacks as a result of his 'perfection.' It was implied by you a number of posts back, but you could have just said this and saved a lot of time.

Good to know that not even Rhino players think he's balanced. That's the end of that, I suppose.

Edited March 12, 2014 by HolidayPi3

[Zarozian]

no, just you. we're giving you hard facts, and numbers to back it up, and your reasons sum up to 'not a tank and he can be the best at everything because i want him to be'.

 

you outright admit than Rhino is the best at everything, and then 5 seconds later you will say he's balanced because he has drawbacks. 

 

make. up. your. mind. it's physically impossible to be both of those things at the same time. saying the opposite to every statement as a cop out excuse to not need to look at problems and address them is extremely wasteful of the time spent trying to actually improve Warframe. 

We're the best indeed.

 

Is what I want to say as a Rhino player.

 

But what I really meant is that hes balanced in everything. Like Rhino is about balance.

 

So you do admit that Rhino has no drawbacks as a result of his 'perfection.' It was implied by you a number of posts back, but you could have just said this and saved a lot of time.

Good to know that not even Rhino players think he's balanced. That's the end of that, I suppose.

In a sense after thinking back, due to the arguments, about the old Rhino, and how speed was never a real drawback for him in the first place, I'd say Rhino was already perfect and even better with the right mods, and his Rhino Prime with the extra speed really doesn't change any of that, other than improve on what hes already good at doing. Surviving.

 

So yeah he is balanced so I guess that's the end of that.

[Zarozian]

What you're doing is more like lobbying than arguing to be honest. You even start the thread by trying to "rebrand" Rhino.

Well to be honest.

 

It's both really. Also I did that to snap people out of the stereotype of thinking tanks are slow.

 

Which is why no one has used the reason that Rhino being a tank should be slow.

[MirageKnight]

Last I checked, Warframe is a PvE game based on cooperation, not competition.

 

So anyway, how's a slow Rhino supposed to be able to save someone's &#! when they've run ahead of everyone else and then proceeded to get clobbered by a mob? It can't. Thanks to the the Vanguard helm, Rhino turns into a better support frame, plain and simple. With said helm, he's able to stay fairly close to faster frames and be able to charge to the rescue when things get really hairy. It helps players like me make sure that the mission is a success for everyone in it. I've had so many players thank me for being able to rez them in time when no one else was near or fast enough because my Vanguard helm helped get there before they died. Oh, you're welcome guys. 

 

So tell me "Master Race" players...how does the speed buff that the Vanguard helm confers to both Rhinos REALLY hurt the PvE gameplay that Warframe is built around again? Hrmmmm? 

 

I think all this whining about Rhino Prime's speed and the Vanguard helm has more to do with a sense of entitlement and elitism on the part of Loki players rather than with any real concerns about "balance".

 

And on a side note, I've picked up a good number of Lokis off the floor within seconds of dying that decided to charge ahead of everyone else. I'm quite sure they'd have not wanted me to wear my Vanguard helm then...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[taiiat]

you outright admit than Rhino is the best at everything,  and then 5 seconds later you will say he's balanced because he has drawbacks. 

 

But what I really meant is that hes balanced in everything. Like Rhino is about balance.

i wonder how i knew that was exactly what you would say.

 

ah, yes. because that's all you've been doing. going back and forth to whatever statement is most convenient for you at the time.

[Zarozian]

i wonder how i knew that was exactly what you would say.

 

ah, yes. because that's all you've been doing. going back and forth to whatever statement is most convenient for you at the time.

The edit button?

[Rakosta_Kai]

You know.. it's really nice theory that Rhino would simply charge from cover to cover or from enemy to enemy spending energy along the way. You might find that in practice it might be a little less convenient than you might think. I never said that Frost didn't need a movement speed buff. And my official stance btw is not to nerf Rhino.. but to remove Vanguard helmet stats (and helmet stats in general). I would say that Frost is pretty much inferior to Rhino in every way atm.. and the fact that he is so slow without having access to any speed improving trinket seems rather unfair.

 

And speed is valuable, otherwise Vanguard wouldn't be such a great deal. If speed doesn't matter why does this topic even exist then?

Actually I don't Charge from cover to cover, that'd be silly. It's an answer to your question about how speed is needed for doing so though.

 

Why is speed important?

That's an excellent question...

Why does that question exist?

No one has been able to give a decent reason why this should be an issue.

We have established that balance based on run speed is a fallacy.

We've established that run speed buffs aren't necessary for Rhino as he has Charge.

So your guess is as good as mine.

 

Why do you think it's an issue?

 

 

The only value represented in speed is copter distance and crossing rooms faster.

It has no instrumental value in mission success or mission contribution otherwise.

 

Real issues would be more valuable as discussion material.

Like:

Why does Ember Prime only have 2 polarities as opposed to the 3 every prime has gotten?

Why no speed buffs for Frost?

Why no anything for Frost?

Why did they retire the Boar when they have a shortage of viable Shotguns available?

Why is Banshee geared toward keeping mobs at range but her ulti requires them to be close to her while she still takes damage?

What's going to get done to make Ash viable in high level content?

 

There's tons of really good and meaningful questions that need examination, but instead, the forum gets it's collective jimmies rustled about a supposed 10% increase in speed that may or may not be a typo.

 

Players right now are fixated on bringing everything down to some imaginary level of "same" and call it balance as long as it doesn't affect them.

You can see it in this thread..." Nerf Vanguard"... "Oh, I'm very familiar with Trinity and something needs to be done...I don't wanna talk about that, but nerf Vanguard"

Everyone wants to nerf something else... As long as it's not their own personal OP piece o' crap.

 

"Soma is for noobs, oughta be nerfed!" Coming outta the mouths of the exact same yahoos rockin' it in a mission 2 months ago.

 

Hypocrites...

 

 

So I'd say you have asked an excellent question whether you realized it or not.

 

For my part, I'm done on the subject. I hope someone can actually answer it for you.

 

I'm just tired of seeing the same forum posters stalk threads looking to nerf something that they don't use or makes them feel inadequate.

 

If we really wanted to go that route... let's just nerf it all down to Nekros level.

 

Then you'd have balance like a mofo.