Mathframe Prime?

[AveryJ]

I was just reading through a few articles on the forums, specifically based on "nerfing this because those weapons are useless", and it gave me some inspiration to re-introduce an old concept of playing video games.

 

I don't know if everyone here knows this about video games but they're supposed to be "fun". i know that's a word that's strange to many of you that want to use weapons but don't touch them because there are better things out there stat wise and so you cry for nerfs so that the weapons you want to use don't suck.  

 

I believe the answer to your problem is not begging for good weapons to suck equally as bad as the weapons that are considered junk, but to pick the weapon you want to use and put enough time into it so that it can kill the enemies you have the most "fun" killing. 

 

I don't like the soma, i prefer the look and feel of the braton. but i don't go on the forums demanding all these stat changes or restrictions on "better weapons". i don't need to. thats why the devs made forma and catylists.   some of you will say- "the braton can't ever possibly compare to the damage output of the soma! argh argh merherher"  true, true, but you know what? i'm gonna have just as much fun with my little braton killing grineer in LOWER levels as you and your soma killing everything in higher levels. 

 

No disrespect to anyone,and everyone has their own things that they like but just remember; some us like our "crappy" weapons. i use weapons that i like but aren't necessarily considered great weapons by most, and i have a lot of fun that comes with the challenge of using said weapons. It sucks that i have to worry about the devs restricting ammo or something along those lines because a bunch of people keep complaining for them to do it. and for what? Because they are forced to use the weapon that gives them the best dps? no. no one is forcing you to use anything. if you think the soma is overpowered then don't use it, and play with others that feel the same way or run your favorite kind of solo missions like i do.

 

again, everyone is entitle to what they think is fun, if you enjoy using things like the soma and crunching the numbers to make it kill everything in your path, great! this post isn't for you. its directed at the people who don't have fun with the soma and dont like crunching numbers but use these tactics anyways and then complain the game is boring. 

 

thanks for your time, i know its a bit of a long post and most will just ignore it but maybe some will realize there are other ways of having fun in games like this than just trying to outright kill everything. :)

[Archistopheles]

Some people can't have "fun" if there is a player out there with better gear than them... To make a long post short.

[AveryJ]

Some people can't have "fun" if there is a player out there with better gear than them... To make a long post short.

well said xD

[Mickey1779]

Every person has their own definition of "fun", hence some clans appeal to some people while not others.

[Renathy]

It's a free-to-play game where the developers are the publishers of their own game, hence all the complaining.

[AveryJ]

It's a free-to-play game where the developers are the publishers of their own game, hence all the complaining.

yeah, i mean its expected with the way most people are but there's a lot of stuff that people complain about with good reason (the broken lights on grineer maps for instance) i just don't understand some peoples thinking with wanting to nerf everything in sight. 

 

 the games changing, its in beta and its expected that the end result could look nothing like it does now but imo a very vocal few are trying to change things that can stay the way they are (at least for now) without compromising the majority of player interest while the devs work on more important things. 

[Ttariel]

I was reading Methframe the whole time and was hoping for a stupid funny druggy frame concept....

[AveryJ]

I was reading Methframe the whole time and was hoping for a stupid funny druggy frame concept....

sorry to disappoint xD

[Archistopheles]

I was reading Methframe the whole time and was hoping for a stupid funny druggy frame concept....

 

Which is funny because Volt is your avatar... He might as well be the Methframe.

[BoomyGordo]

Some people can't have "fun" if there is a player out there with better gear than them... To make a long post short.

 

I remember a thread on the forum, some one was complaining about how they cant use the vectis because they dont have primed chamber. He said he had gotten rid of all his shotguns because he didnt have strun wraith. 

 

It all boiled down to "DE is making me not play because i dont have exclusives that some one else has therefore i cant even use that kind of gun because its not fun anymore"

[Monolake]

You see, fun comes from combating enemies, and when some one has far superior gear he kills all the enemies faster than you can kill one, hence you get no fun, all the fun goes to him. Thats why people don't like Nova. People want to play, not just watch as some one else plays.

 

When every one has 'OP' weapons or abilities (overpowered relative to the enemies) it becomes a race to be the first to kill, or you get no fun either. Or you need huge loads of enemies for everyone. Thats why survivals are cool and thats why exterminates or low spawn missions are boring.

 

Thats not even talking about the challenge, part of generation of console gamers don't want any challenge, they are used to easy games.

But as we can see from some good and popular games challenge is great fun, and to have challenge you need to balance.

[AveryJ]

You see, fun comes from combating enemies, and when some one has far superior gear he kills all the enemies faster than you can kill one, hence you get no fun, all the fun goes to him. Thats why people don't like Nova. People want to play, not just watch as some one else plays.

I understand the thinking behind that but theres an easy fix.  find people who want a challenge like you do and play with them instead of jumping to the online mode and having to deal with people who aren't interested in fun at that moment, they are usually more interested in farming materials. most people agree that if you wanna have good fun in warframe you play with somewhat close friends that share your perspective in challenge level or just solo.

 

exterminate missions are really fun, but not on online mode. i play them on solo and have a blast, i usually go for the stealthy approach but sometimes i switch it up and use my imagination.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

If I need to, I can link in my main post on the subject of balance still impacting things even if you're not the one using them. Of course, my argument assumes that you cannot control the behavior of your allies. If you can like the OP claims, then you can have a very good experience.

Unfortunately, not everyone can play with friends. Thus, for most players, balance is still relevant. Don't even try to bring up solo. It's a completely different game that many don't enjoy.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Volt_Cruelerz

[AveryJ]

If I need to, I can link in my main post on the subject of balance still impacting things even if you're not the one using them. Of course, my argument assumes that you cannot control the behavior of your allies. If you can like the OP claims, then you can have a very good experience.

Unfortunately, not everyone can play with friends. Thus, for most players, balance is still relevant. Don't even try to bring up solo. It's a completely different game that many don't enjoy.

actually if you don't mind, that would be nice.  also, your very right about not everyone that wants a cooperative experience having friends to play with, something i wasn't considering in my original post. 

[Renathy]

yeah, i mean its expected with the way most people are but there's a lot of stuff that people complain about with good reason (the broken lights on grineer maps for instance) i just don't understand some peoples thinking with wanting to nerf everything in sight. 

 

 the games changing, its in beta and its expected that the end result could look nothing like it does now but imo a very vocal few are trying to change things that can stay the way they are (at least for now) without compromising the majority of player interest while the devs work on more important things. 

 

The problem is, even though some people are correct about some problems, is that the game is being worked on. Beta means that Digital Extremes can release content for us to test on and we provide the feedback so the team can work it out, yet people think it's a finished product and demand more. And as a I said, being a publisher of their own games, they can easily do that, but there's a negative side: The player can contact the developer team much easily and believe they have the right to expect top-notch, finished content.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

actually if you don't mind, that would be nice.  also, your very right about not everyone that wants a cooperative experience having friends to play with, something i wasn't considering in my original post.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NrbeZdVEfHF5b3sE9DNMaPWcgSWncAk1eYe87QSIiOk/

[Monolake]

I understand the thinking behind that but theres an easy fix.  find people who want a challenge like you do and play with them instead of jumping to the online mode and having to deal with people who aren't interested in fun at that moment, they are usually more interested in farming materials. most people agree that if you wanna have good fun in warframe you play with somewhat close friends that share your perspective in challenge level or just solo.

 

exterminate missions are really fun, but not on online mode. i play them on solo and have a blast, i usually go for the stealthy approach but sometimes i switch it up and use my imagination.

Thats already an indication of a problem if one needs to avoid public games. And WF offers nothing in terms of matchmaking, its even tedious to find a group for void runs. Besides almost no one wants to limit themselves.

[AveryJ]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NrbeZdVEfHF5b3sE9DNMaPWcgSWncAk1eYe87QSIiOk/

Ahh i have actually read this before, very well written and excellent points. i believe balancing  is important as well, i just meant about people calling for things like maximum ammo cuts on weapons like the soma and boltor prime. in my opinion, cutting ammo for these weapons isn't balancing its just imposing restrictions that don't make sense.

 

Thats already an indication of a problem if one needs to avoid public games. And WF offers nothing in terms of matchmaking, its even tedious to find a group for void runs. Besides almost no one wants to limit themselves.

Very valid points, except the last one.  while true about no one wanting to limit themselves, i believe its more about preference...if i max out my braton and make it the ultimate killing machine (as ultimate a killing machine as a braton can get lol) and go play a low level area that is just right around the level of enemies i want to be fighting with my braton so that it only takes maybe 5 to 10 rounds to kill those enemies then i don't feel like im limiting myself at all. im having plenty of fun shooting these guys and exploring the map.  but that might just be me and maybe not everyone likes to do that. i just don't understand why anyone would play warframe if not to kill bad guys and look cool doing it. farming for stuff isn't fun but killing stuff with the end product is. all i'm saying is that its entirely possible to to have fun with cool looking or feeling weapons even if they don't have the best stats or aren't the hardest hitting, highest dps end product of your farming time. they can be simple too.

 

 

to both of you, sorry for the ranting lol i can talk a lot on matters i'm passionate about. also my posts should be read as if i'm giving friendly constructive criticism or something close to it, i don't want to offend anyone and i'm certainly not angry at anyone for expressing their opinions thanks for everyone's patience :) i thought there would be an outburst of immature comments all down this page, but I've been pleasantly surprised.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Ahh i have actually read this before, very well written and excellent points. i believe balancing  is important as well, i just meant about people calling for things like maximum ammo cuts on weapons like the soma and boltor prime. in my opinion, cutting ammo for these weapons isn't balancing its just imposing restrictions that don't make sense.

I actually disagree with him on that as well.  IMO, he took his idea for Primes being a "pro mode" of normal weapons (which I agree with) and tried to apply it where it didn't belong.  Why not just respond to him in this thread though?  Why bother to create one of your own?

[Davoodoo]

"fun" might also come from overcoming challenges(dark souls is good example of this) so bascially asking to buff everything or leave it as it is now is not gonna make game any challenging.

Even mk1 with proper build and 7 forma will make game stupidly easy, theres no challenge, content is 99% grind, game gets repetetive, boring and provides no new excitment except 5 minute fun with grossly op new weapon till you toss it away in favor for even more op weapon. 

 

Thought about it for pretty long time and to make game at least remotely challenging you would need to remake whole game, maybe except textures and animations. 

[(PSN)PD_33]

I remember a thread on the forum, some one was complaining about how they cant use the vectis because they dont have primed chamber. He said he had gotten rid of all his shotguns because he didnt have strun wraith. 

 

It all boiled down to "DE is making me not play because i dont have exclusives that some one else has therefore i cant even use that kind of gun because its not fun anymore"

 

 

BOOBEN!!!!

[ThePresident777]

You see, fun comes from combating enemies, and when some one has far superior gear he kills all the enemies faster than you can kill one, hence you get no fun, all the fun goes to him. Thats why people don't like Nova. People want to play, not just watch as some one else plays.

 

When every one has 'OP' weapons or abilities (overpowered relative to the enemies) it becomes a race to be the first to kill, or you get no fun either. Or you need huge loads of enemies for everyone. Thats why survivals are cool and thats why exterminates or low spawn missions are boring.

 

Thats not even talking about the challenge, part of generation of console gamers don't want any challenge, they are used to easy games.

But as we can see from some good and popular games challenge is great fun, and to have challenge you need to balance.

 

Except that the game has this thing called respawn and it's a horde mode game, at least in some missions.  So, if you're watching people play, it's your fault because there is plenty of stuff to kill.

[Santiak]

Except that the game has this thing called respawn and it's a horde mode game, at least in some missions.  So, if you're watching people play, it's your fault because there is plenty of stuff to kill.

I tend to disagree.

Disregarding, for the moment being, the notion of having to play with friends (all mine stopped playing), or playing solo (gets tedious quite rapidly for me), the imbalance has, in some cases, gotten to the point where a single weapon or frame is vastly superior to others, to the extent that everything else is rendered obsolete.

Big wave of enemies coming at you? Soma-equipped player will handle that quite rapidly, and unless you grief him by somehow blocking or otherwise removing the player from the equation, there's little you can do about it. You can, of course, relocate, but only untill they finish up that spawn, and come to the next one - which, given the above scenario, doesn't take all that long.

The game only becomes balanced when the level of difficulty gets to the point where players have to rely on each other, rather than their weapons, in order to be succesful - i.e. Nightmare mode. The fact that these are, in my opinion, the most enjoyable missions, is very telling of how balance, or the lack thereof, impacts how enjoyable the game is.

All that being said, I do believe that right now, the issue is balance. The ideal situation should be that the only thing playing into your choice of weapon, would be the "feel" or "type" of it, not the objective efficiency of it.

Meanwhile, another aspect of this is difficulty, which should also, in my opinion, be relative to the players: i.e. scale according to the average conclave rating of the players playing together, so enemies become a challenge (moreso at later levels). This would also serve to mitigate some of the issues of weapon and warframe balancing, seeing as one could arguably rate gear that was intentionally somewhat superior to other gear, at a higher rating.

So, for example, 4 people wielding 7 forma (+ 7x100 rating) rank 30 Somas (500 rating) - disregarding the frames for now for the sake of simplification - would experience a relatively harder mission, than 4 people wielding, let's say, 4 forma (4x100 rating) rank 30 Bratons (300) playing the same exact mission.

This might even open up other venues in the game. Want fancier loot? Tie it (drop-rate, availability, what have you) to the overall conclave rating of the group, but make the increase in difficulty exponential, so one group using gear twice as good as another groups, would translate to the former group playing a mission 4 times as hard - for example.

The hard-capped difficulty of the levels in the game, translates to the players being without any real challenge after a certain point, and it not being relative to participating players means, that 1 player using equipment which effectively nullifies the challenge, ruins the fun for the other 3 - all things being equal. :)

Balancing both weapons, difficulty, and the way they interact, would hopefully translate to those 3 players not having their fun ruined because of someone elses preference.

Or in other words; balancing is necessary for the game to remain fun, even if the things being balanced aren't affecting the intra-relationship between players (such as it would in a direct PvP game), but only their inter-relationship (how they each indirectly affect each others play-session).

Edited March 14, 2014 by Santiak

[Monolake]

"fun" might also come from overcoming challenges(dark souls is good example of this) so bascially asking to buff everything or leave it as it is now is not gonna make game any challenging.

Even mk1 with proper build and 7 forma will make game stupidly easy, theres no challenge, content is 99% grind, game gets repetetive, boring and provides no new excitment except 5 minute fun with grossly op new weapon till you toss it away in favor for even more op weapon. 

 

Thought about it for pretty long time and to make game at least remotely challenging you would need to remake whole game, maybe except textures and animations. 

Not the whole game. Just nerf bat the worst offenders that trivialise all the content, tweak the mods, rework some abilities to be more teamplay oriented, change some gameplay to be tactical instead of gear-check, build a balance progress curve. Nothing a competent designer with spreadsheets and playtesting couldn't do.

 

Except that the game has this thing called respawn and it's a horde mode game, at least in some missions.  So, if you're watching people play, it's your fault because there is plenty of stuff to kill.

 

So I need to: 1) play survival  2) go into another room    - or I might as well play solo, which means the game badly needs fixing in many parts to be a good coop experience

[AveryJ]

I actually disagree with him on that as well.  IMO, he took his idea for Primes being a "pro mode" of normal weapons (which I agree with) and tried to apply it where it didn't belong.  Why not just respond to him in this thread though?  Why bother to create one of your own?

I don't know exactly when he had written his thread but it was awhile ago that i read it and i had forgotten about it since then. i also didn't know that was what he was talking about until he re-posted it and i began reading it again. 

 

i don't remember exactly what he had elaborated on in his thread anymore, i just remember it was well written and that i agreed with most (if not all) of his points at the time.