How To Change Elemental Mod Domination

[Boondorl]

Gotta stack all those elements, right?

 

Sadly, this has been an issue in the game for as long as the card system has existed. Stacking elements is just superior (buffing utility mods like reload would help, but that topic is for another thread). Damage 2.0 and its ability to mix and match elements was supposed to change this, but we still see all four elements is the way to go. So, how do you fix it?

 

Stop them from giving raw damage against literally everything.

 

Do you have any reason at all to use Fast Hands over Cryo Rounds currently? No, not really. You'll just be hurting yourself more in the long run. However, with this new system (and buffed utility mods), you'd have no reason to use it at all against certain enemies.

 

Some basic changes that need to happen:

 

-Seriously, buff utility mods. I mean it.

 

-Make elemental damage across weapon types on par with each other. Melee's not feelin' very elemental-y today.

 

-Rename Toxin to Corrosive, because...

 

-We'll be removing elemental combos altogether. Seriously, if there was anything that was completely unneeded and over the top, it was those. Just look at the enemy resistances currently.

 

So, what's the idea? Well, it's quite simple.

 

Remove elements from giving raw damage, and give them a damage multiplier against certain weaknesses.

 

Let's go back to Cryo Rounds. Now, instead of giving 90% extra cold damage...

 

...Let's say it gives 200% extra damage vs shields. So, this means when you shoot a Corpus, your base damage will be multiplied by 200% against those shields. However, once those shields are down, Cryo Rounds will no longer give extra damage. Instead, you can use Hellfire to give extra base damage towards flesh.

 

-Cold will give a damage boost vs shields

-Electric will give a damage boost vs robotics

-Fire will give a damage boost vs flesh

 

-Slash will give a slight damage boost vs flesh

-Puncture will give a slight damage boost vs armor (but won't ignore armor)

-Impact will give a slight damage boost vs shields

 

Corrosive will work slightly differently, since Grineer armor is a b*tch and a half to deal with. While it will still give a damage multiplier, this will cause your base damage to ignore their armor on top of adding extra damage. However, Grineer will no longer have a flesh component (we'll assume they're completely coated in armor), meaning no other element will give extra damage. This can also help balance armor scaling, as infinite scaling will no longer be necessary, and a cap can safely be put in place.

 

Grineer will be made of armor, Corpus crewman will be shield and flesh, MOAs will be shield and robotic, and infested will be made of flesh.

 

So, what does this system do?

 

As you can see, aside from Corpus maybe, stacking elemental damage will not benefit you anymore. Bringing Cryo Rounds to a Grineer fight will give you literally zero benefit. This will completely kill off the idea of stacking elements, and along with other utility mods being buffed, more freedom to choose will open. The only exception is the Void, which is the only place where stacking should be mandatory due to enemy diversity. Even then, you'll be stacking 4 mods at most, which brings me to the next point...

 

4 at most? But what about all those fancy nightmare dual mods, huh?

 

These will no longer stack with the regular mods (e.g. Wildfire and Hellfire will no longer stack). Plain and simple. I thought the idea of them stacking was ludicrous to begin with. Unlike corrupted mods where you have a solid trade-off to deal with for stacking, there's literally no penalty for stacking nightmare mods. I assumed, on release, the trade-off would be kind of a jack of all trades, but master of none type deal. You could condense two mods into one spot for the same cost of one, but couldn't have all three. Obviously that line of thinking was too balanced.

 

Given how common some nightmare mods are to begin with (Hammershot and Blaze being the only hard to get ones), this won't be as bad as people will probably make it out to be. In all honesty, it's a fair trade off. Do I take Wildfire to save space and get two solid upgrades, or use two slots to get two great magazine and fire damage mods?

 

There are still lots of improvements to be made to this game's balancing. The base damage mods (Hornet Strike, Serration, etc.) definitely need a lot of changing, but that's a whole other topic in itself. This system goes a long way in removing stacking elemental damage, by still giving them very powerful use, but only in certain situations. Stacking elements will officially die with this change, as, outside of the Void and Corpus, you'll have no reason to.

Edited March 16, 2014 by Boondorl

[Natesky9]

Will read later, but I'd bump that

[Llyssa]

Firstly, fast hands increases your DPS. <.<

 

Secondly, I don't understand the point? I mean, you detail what you want to happen, but you don't give any convincing reason for why. It comes off as being different for the sake of being different.

 

I don't see how it would improve gameplay at all. It doesn't sound like it would be "more fun" or interesting, or why it would be worthwhile for us to participate in.

 

What's the point?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

-We'll be removing elemental combos altogether.

Stopped reading here. The elemental combo system is one of the best things to happen to mods since ever.

[Natesky9]

Stopped reading here. The elemental combo system is one of the best things to happen to mods since ever.

30% increase in a single damage type is terribad, considering that elemental damage mods not only are based off of total damage, but give a 90% bonus. Weapons with high damage in one area don't benefit hardly as much as simply throwing elemental damage on it.

[Boondorl]

Firstly, fast hands increases your DPS. <.<

 

Err...yes, yes it does. But only barely. I think almost everyone will agree that 30% reload time reduction is barely ever worth it compared to stacking 90% more damage that likely won't be reduced by resistances.

 

 

Secondly, I don't understand the point? I mean, you detail what you want to happen, but you don't give any convincing reason for why. It comes off as being different for the sake of being different.

 

I don't see how it would improve gameplay at all. It doesn't sound like it would be "more fun" or interesting, or why it would be worthwhile for us to participate in.

 

What's the point?

 

The point is an attempt to completely remove elemental stacking from the game. While it doesn't sound like it'd be more fun or interesting, it's a necessary change DE has to make if they'd like to completely remove stacking elements, which is what Damage 2.0 and its elemental combos attempted to change (they expected people would only need to run 2 elemental mods now, but because adding more still gives more damage, there's no reason not to).

 

This change not only makes stacking pointless, it gives a slight penalty for it since putting on cold damage against Grineer will give you no benefit and actually waste 9 points. You could call it forcing diversity, but this change will allow players to achieve maximum DPS without stacking ludicrous amounts of elemental damage. Along with buffing the other mods to be worth the point cost they currently have, players will now have more choice in their build (instead of 2 base damage mods and 6 elemental mods, you'll have 2 base damage, 1 elemental, and 5 mods free for choosing).

[Llyssa]

Err...yes, yes it does. But only barely. I think almost everyone will agree that 30% reload time reduction is barely ever worth it compared to stacking 90% more damage that likely won't be reduced by resistances.

I use fast hands. It's worth it.

 

The point is an attempt to completely remove elemental stacking from the game. While it doesn't sound like it'd be more fun or interesting, it's a necessary change DE has to make if they'd like to completely remove stacking elements,

That's rather circular logic.

 

 it doesn't sound like it'd be more fun or interesting

So why the hell would we want it?

 

EDIT: And before you try to give more weird justification:

 

 

it doesn't sound like it'd be more fun or interesting

 

This change not only makes stacking pointless, it gives a slight penalty for it 

 

  call it forcing diversity, but this change will allow players to achieve maximum DPS

 

All you're saying is that nerfing max DPS will make it easier for us to have max DPS, but that doing so is ultimately only detrimental to the gaming experience.

 

So, it makes the game less fun, and it nerfs max DPS, but it also makes owning more than 1 elemental mod pointless.

 

I guess it might make some newbies happier that they can more easily reach max damage?

 

Are you mad about not owning enough elemental mods to get powerful comboes, or... what?

 

You mention something about "more choice", but, what "choice" are we talking about here? You're under the impression "OMFG MOAR ELEMENTS IS BEST!" that you feel stupid by not taking, and that by changing that, there won't become a new "OMFG BEST!" build? Are you serious? I can't imagine you're serious, but maybe you're just not thinking this through properly.

 

Reducing the number of choices we have(which is exactly what you're asking for) does not increase the number of choices we get, nor does it affect your tunnel visioning. If things were changed to this, it'd be less fun, less interesting, and you'd *still* find a new "I feel stupid for not taking this exact mod set". The fact you have one already points this is how you think in general.

 

So we all lose, you'll be posting yet-another thread like this about whatever your new found hatred is(probably speed buffs, once you figure out how they boost DPS), the game's forced to be rebalanced to make it all happen, and there's absolutely no gain whatsoever.

 

Why would you even suggest this???? o.0

Edited March 16, 2014 by Llyssa

[Natesky9]

Here's a simple solution for you.

Raise Sawtooth Blade, Piercing hit, and Rupture to 90% bonus, instead of the terrible 30% that they are now. This will somewhat mitigate the necessary Elemental stacking by just a bit, and is a logical choice to do

 

This will make it viable to put these mods on weapons with High areas of damage, and not just make them rainbow builds

[Boondorl]

I use fast hands. It's worth it.

 

"I use it, therefore it's worth it." Seriously, ask any min/maxer. 99.99% will say adding Jolt is 1000x more worth it. The small percentage also makes it worthless on weapons with already fast reloads.

 

That's rather circular logic.

 

I don't think you know what that means. Making stacking pointless would remove stacking, because there's simply no reason to outside of getting a special proc you want. To all min/maxers, it'll be unnecessary. Can you still do it? Sure, but why would you?

 

So why the hell would we want it?

 

I'm sorry, are you under the impression the current system is fun and interesting? The only thing interesting about it is combining elements, and that wasn't even in the game until Damage 2.0, which was Update 11. Currently, you're simply adding more damage. Adding more elemental damage is as much of a no-brainer as adding Serration and Split Chamber. This new system would alleviate the pressure of having to get more damage to do well, and would make balancing enemies far easier as ludicrous amounts of armor, health, and shield would no longer be needed to keep up with the insane amounts of DPS this game dishes out.

 

All you're saying is that nerfing max DPS will make it easier for us to have max DPS, but that doing so is ultimately only detrimental to the gaming experience.

 

So, it makes the game less fun, and it nerfs max DPS, but it also makes owning more than 1 elemental mod pointless.

 

And? How is this detrimental to anyone's gaming experience? Chances are, you already have everything maxed. How would this affect you in any way, shape, or form? You'll feel compelled to use less forma? Oh no, how scary! LESS GRINDING!

 

Also, care to elaborate on how this makes the game less fun? Jesus Christ, you act like this would be the end of Warframe as we know it. Because one-shotting everything below level 40 is so fun. Vets also seem to complain this game is too easy, so nerfing your precious DPS would make the game harder without screwing over new players more and more. Also, did you even read the post? Having more than one elemental mod is fine, but situational, which is how the elemental mods should be to begin with. Corpus and the Void still make strong use of your precious elemental stacking.

 

I guess it might make some newbies happier that they can more easily reach max damage?

 

Are you mad about not owning enough elemental mods to get powerful comboes, or... what?

 

Those newbies are very important to this game, as those people are the "casuals" that help support DE. I guarantee those "newbies" make up a larger majority than elitists like you.

 

Also, I own every mod and have all of them maxed, except for a few unimportant R10s. What kinda sh*tty response is that? Personal attacks will get you no where.

 

You mention something about "more choice", but, what "choice" are we talking about here? You're under the impression "OMFG MOAR ELEMENTS IS BEST!" that you feel stupid by not taking, and that by changing that, there won't become a new "OMFG BEST!" build? Are you serious? I can't imagine you're serious, but maybe you're just not thinking this through properly.

 

I'm sorry, what? "OMFG best buildz" has nothing to do with it. Best builds only exist because of terrible enemy resistances and hardcore elemental stacking. When 50% of your mod cards are made up of utility mods, there is no "best build." At that point, it truly is up to player preference. Sure, adding more firerate and reload will give you a higher DPS, but not everyone likes the amount of ammo it'll chew through. Why not simplify maxing damage so casual players don't have to feel weighed down? Not everyone can drop 800 hours into this game.

 

Reducing the number of choices we have(which is exactly what you're asking for) does not increase the number of choices we get, nor does it affect your tunnel visioning. If things were changed to this, it'd be less fun, less interesting, and you'd *still* find a new "I feel stupid for not taking this exact mod set". The fact you have one already points this is how you think in general.

 

This doesn't actually decrease your number of choices, and that's the best part. It makes certain choices redundant, sure. But overall, not having to worry about stacking damage hardcore opens up more variety to builds. I still fail to see how being forced to stack damage is fun. I'm sure the new players love requiring damage mods they don't have in order to succeed. Good luck getting Stormbringer!

 

Also, your last statement is ironic. You act like that's a bad thing, yet half of your post is saying it'll make the game less fun because it'll nerf max DPS. For someone so against that logic, you really care about your DPS.

 

So we all lose, you'll be posting yet-another thread like this about whatever your new found hatred is(probably speed buffs, once you figure out how they boost DPS), the game's forced to be rebalanced to make it all happen, and there's absolutely no gain whatsoever.

 

Why would you even suggest this???? o.0

 

We all lose? Removing the need to stack elements from the game and buffing utility mods means we all lose? I don't know about you, but 90% of players would probably consider it a win. DPS stacking would no longer be necessary, and enemies would no longer need to scale as hard as they do. Overall, it gets easier for the casual player, and remains the same for veterans. Vets need end-game content, not more damage. Besides, why would anyone complain about players using more firerate and reload? At least then it has an actual trade-off (far more ammo consumption). Adding more damage has literally none, outside of corrupted mods.

 

And heaven forbid I make a suggestion on the feedback forums. Way to completely twist my post to something it's not, then go "why would you even suggest that?!?!" Because I didn't. You did.

 

 

Here's a simple solution for you.

Raise Sawtooth Blade, Piercing hit, and Rupture to 90% bonus, instead of the terrible 30% that they are now. This will somewhat mitigate the necessary Elemental stacking by just a bit, and is a logical choice to do

 

This will make it viable to put these mods on weapons with High areas of damage, and not just make them rainbow builds

 

Solution to fixing stacking elemental damage: stacking even more base damage.

 

Buffing to 90% will do nothing. 90% of 80 puncture still only gives 152 puncture in the end. In order to make ips mods worthwhile, they'd need to work like elemental damage currently does.

 

Even then, I despise the pure damage mods in this game. They definitely need to be reworked, but as I said, that's for another post.

[Llyssa]

Wow. All the texts.

 

Let's simplify this:

 

There is no such thing as a "need" for any build of any type within the game, whatsoever, and all arguments made holding this premise to be true are therefore immediately invalid.

 

Establishing that, is it possible to explain your concept in any useful way? Right now, all you have is the circular logic of "removing X would remove X, so we should remove X". If asking "why?" eventually leads back to your initial statement, you're using circular logic. "Remove X!" Why? "so we will remove X!"... which is what you just said.

 

Ultimately, the only thing you give that even remotely resembles an answer to "why" is:

 

 I despise the pure damage mods in this game.
 

Which is a rather silly reason to change everything.

 

The rest is just you being very angry about that single statement. Much anger. Tiny reason. No point. You can stop with the smoke and mirrors and name calling and straw manning, it doesn't make that any more useful of a reason.

[Boondorl]

I implore you to take a weapon with no elemental damage to any place with enemies above level 20 solo. You'll find your fun factor decreases very shortly. Unless, of course, you're a masochist, in which case more power to you. Most new players, however, will find the strong lack of ability to do anything very unfair. RNG is out of their reach and not something they can control. Balancing a game around mods that you can't even acquire through guaranteed means is not compelling gameplay. Trading should be for fun, not mandatory.

 

Even DE considers element stacking to be an issue currently. The reason for this system is to fix these balancing issues. However, your bolded statement clearly shows you don't believe balance issues actually exist within the mod system, so nothing I say could convince you why. If you don't believe in balancing issues, me saying it's a balance issue will go no where. I really don't know what else you want me to say. Stacking elements isn't exactly fun, nor is it even challenging for that matter. If you're fine with stacking damage to kill everything in a single shot, I can't say anything that'll convince you otherwise. But acting like this issue doesn't exist is ignorant.

 

If you want a TL;DR, DE wants to fix elemental stacking. This system does this by making elements situational as opposed to good all around.

[genclaymore]

Stopped reading here. The elemental combo system is one of the best things to happen to mods since ever.

Same , These would be better off as there own mods then replacing the element system. Because I like being ablt to add Toxic to a Orgis, or changing tord to another element etc.

 

The op idea can work as a alternate mod choice, becase they are called element mods for a reason, and not Damaged type mod.

[Liverslices]

Gotta stack all those elements, right?

 

Sadly, this has been an issue in the game for as long as the card system has existed. Stacking elements is just superior (buffing utility mods like reload would help, but that topic is for another thread). Damage 2.0 and its ability to mix and match elements was supposed to change this, but we still see all four elements is the way to go. So, how do you fix it?

 

Stop them from giving raw damage against literally everything.

 

Do you have any reason at all to use Fast Hands over Cryo Rounds currently? No, not really. You'll just be hurting yourself more in the long run. However, with this new system (and buffed utility mods), you'd have no reason to use it at all against certain enemies.

 

Some basic changes that need to happen:

 

-Seriously, buff utility mods. I mean it.

 

-Make elemental damage across weapon types on par with each other. Melee's not feelin' very elemental-y today.

 

-Rename Toxin to Corrosive, because...

 

-We'll be removing elemental combos altogether. Seriously, if there was anything that was completely unneeded and over the top, it was those. Just look at the enemy resistances currently.

 

So, what's the idea? Well, it's quite simple.

 

Remove elements from giving raw damage, and give them a damage multiplier against certain weaknesses.

 

Let's go back to Cryo Rounds. Now, instead of giving 90% extra cold damage...

 

...Let's say it gives 200% extra damage vs shields. So, this means when you shoot a Corpus, your base damage will be multiplied by 200% against those shields. However, once those shields are down, Cryo Rounds will no longer give extra damage. Instead, you can use Hellfire to give extra base damage towards flesh.

 

-Cold will give a damage boost vs shields

-Electric will give a damage boost vs robotics

-Fire will give a damage boost vs flesh

 

-Slash will give a slight damage boost vs flesh

-Puncture will give a slight damage boost vs armor (but won't ignore armor)

-Impact will give a slight damage boost vs shields

 

Corrosive will work slightly differently, since Grineer armor is a b*tch and a half to deal with. While it will still give a damage multiplier, this will cause your base damage to ignore their armor on top of adding extra damage. However, Grineer will no longer have a flesh component (we'll assume they're completely coated in armor), meaning no other element will give extra damage. This can also help balance armor scaling, as infinite scaling will no longer be necessary, and a cap can safely be put in place.

 

Grineer will be made of armor, Corpus crewman will be shield and flesh, MOAs will be shield and robotic, and infested will be made of flesh.

 

So, what does this system do?

 

As you can see, aside from Corpus maybe, stacking elemental damage will not benefit you anymore. Bringing Cryo Rounds to a Grineer fight will give you literally zero benefit. This will completely kill off the idea of stacking elements, and along with other utility mods being buffed, more freedom to choose will open. The only exception is the Void, which is the only place where stacking should be mandatory due to enemy diversity. Even then, you'll be stacking 4 mods at most, which brings me to the next point...

 

4 at most? But what about all those fancy nightmare dual mods, huh?

 

These will no longer stack with the regular mods (e.g. Wildfire and Hellfire will no longer stack). Plain and simple. I thought the idea of them stacking was ludicrous to begin with. Unlike corrupted mods where you have a solid trade-off to deal with for stacking, there's literally no penalty for stacking nightmare mods. I assumed, on release, the trade-off would be kind of a jack of all trades, but master of none type deal. You could condense two mods into one spot for the same cost of one, but couldn't have all three. Obviously that line of thinking was too balanced.

 

Given how common some nightmare mods are to begin with (Hammershot and Blaze being the only hard to get ones), this won't be as bad as people will probably make it out to be. In all honesty, it's a fair trade off. Do I take Wildfire to save space and get two solid upgrades, or use two slots to get two great magazine and fire damage mods?

 

There are still lots of improvements to be made to this game's balancing. The base damage mods (Hornet Strike, Serration, etc.) definitely need a lot of changing, but that's a whole other topic in itself. This system goes a long way in removing stacking elemental damage, by still giving them very powerful use, but only in certain situations. Stacking elements will officially die with this change, as, outside of the Void and Corpus, you'll have no reason to.

You basically want to go back to elements 1.0. I strongly disagree. DE has made so much progress with damage 2.0 and it works. By the time you have an powerful element build on your favorite weapon, you are ready to take on T3 enemies. Of course they will seem overpowered to average enemies.

[notionphil]

DE wants to fix elemental stacking. This system does this by making elements situational as opposed to good all around.

 

I agree with your intentions....

 

However, in reality elemental stacking is too deeply ingrained in the game to remove. From enemy "balance" to player's spent fusion cores, the entire game is built around that mechanism.

 

I'm a huge proponent of making elemental stacking about choice instead of necessity, but in order to do that we need another viable choice. Creativity - that is the only option.

[00zau]

Fix the IPS mods so we have the option to use those instead of a bunch of elements. Make the IPS mods viably and we can decide between 7 different 'elements' to use. The only way to increase build diversity is to increase the number of usuable mods. The reason elemental stacking reigns is that there are no other good damage mods. Fix IPS. They need to give specific slots to be used only for utility mods (like reload, clip size, or recoil mods) if they want us to use them regularly; most people don't want to give up damage for utility on weapons, since weapons are meant to deal damage.

[notionphil]

Fix the IPS mods so we have the option to use those instead of a bunch of elements. Make the IPS mods viably and we can decide between 7 different 'elements' to use. The only way to increase build diversity is to increase the number of usuable mods. The reason elemental stacking reigns is that there are no other good damage mods. Fix IPS. They need to give specific slots to be used only for utility mods (like reload, clip size, or recoil mods) if they want us to use them regularly; most people don't want to give up damage for utility on weapons, since weapons are meant to deal damage.

 

Fixing the physical mods needs to be done, but wouldn't resolve the OP's point That would just make 3 more 'elements' to stack - problem not solved.

 

We need mods which are actually worth giving up pure +damage for. Such as:

 

So...how About We Actually Customize Our Weapons?

[fatpig84]

Or just make physical damage mods more useful ?

 

Let them scale off base damage (rather than IPS) and get at least 60% to 90% (30% to IPS is lols).

That will suffice.

[Axterix13]

Don't really see the point to what you're suggesting.  You basically make cold and electric worthless against two of the factions.  Fire, meanwhile, is something you'd want against every single one.  And Corrosive only against armor.  Overall, it sounds pretty bad, not fun at all.

 

Honestly, if the goal is to get us to use less elemental mods (or just damage mods in general), and to use more of the others, the simplest solution would be to have two categories for mod slots.  The stuff we all value currently (all the damage stuff, including multishot mods) would be in one.  And the other would be all the other stuff: status, reload, magazine, ammo mutation (though those really should be auras, since they impact the team), and so on.  Dual mods that do major things would be classified as majors.  Probably set it up something like 3 of each, with 2 more than you can put whatever you want in (which means 5 for good stuff, 3 for utility in practice).  And boom, just like that, we'd be using those utility mods.  Though ideally they'd still be buffed (especially ones like status).  You could do the same sort of thing with Warframes, though you'd probably want at least one additional category for them (for powers).

[Natesky9]

Or just make physical damage mods more useful ?

 

Let them scale off base damage (rather than IPS) and get at least 60% to 90% (30% to IPS is lols).

That will suffice.

This is probably the only constructive post here, along with the other one.

Sawtooth clip, Rupture, and Piercing hit deserve a much needed buff to contest with simply adding elementals, as adding 30% to one value is far less than adding 90% to total damage. Some rifles that rely on a single damage type would benifit from this much more than anything else, as they need to be

[Shackram]

OP, your sugestion sounds almost like how damage mods worked before the card system.

[-CM-Crazy]

Back to damage 1.0?

[Novoz]

Why would we go back to how it was before?

 

Keep the way it is.

 

I do take reload mod on long reload weapons as it increases dps by a lot actually.