Challenge-Lock Prime Blueprints

[kaboomonme]

Actually a nice idea, and also less RNG, I think i can agree with that.

 

I think there has to be done much much more to make Warframe finally a fair game. At the moment you run around in every mission and you know you cant loose, youre invincible. So you just run 5 times of this and that mission and expect something to drop.

 

+1 for more rewards for being a skilled player instead of a time-investing zombie.

++1 for people actually asking for more challenge instead of asking for more grind

Hyena Pack is only the first, and hopefully not the last

Edited March 18, 2014 by kaboomonme

[XenosInfinity]

EG: Want Sicarus Prime BP? Key takes you to Void Exterm with level 17 enemies. Can run with a full group.

 

Want Boltor Prime BP? Solo Void survival with level 45 enemies, for 10 minutes. Can only run solo.

 

First suggestion: Too easy, make it solo only. Exterminates aren't that hard, especially at that level.

 

Second suggestion: Excuse me what no that's unconditionally stupid. A level 45 survival is a challenge for an ENTIRE GROUP, leaving aside the fact that no void mission starts at level 45. A SOLO survival at that level is going to be nigh-on impossible. I literally do not care how powerful Boltor is, that isn't a challenge gate. That's bragging rights rewarding. That's making you prove that you have no conceivable use for the item before ever allowing you to consider building it.

[LukeAura]

Second suggestion: Excuse me what no that's unconditionally stupid. A level 45 survival is a challenge for an ENTIRE GROUP, leaving aside the fact that no void mission starts at level 45. A SOLO survival at that level is going to be nigh-on impossible. I literally do not care how powerful Boltor is, that isn't a challenge gate. That's bragging rights rewarding. That's making you prove that you have no conceivable use for the item before ever allowing you to consider building it.

Not a suggestion, an example. It is only to get his point across the more powerful the weapon is the more difficult it is to be obtained. 

Also, Endgame 2.0 is coming in. A more powerful than what you need for level 45s gun might be necessary to handle specific challenges found in it. Not necessarily stronger enemies though. 

Edited March 18, 2014 by LukeAura

[Taranis49]

The idea of a mastery lock rewards only grind. 

And levelling enough Warframes and Weapons to reach upper ranks is not a 'grind' everyone wants to do. 

Most people will probably stop once they find their favourite four pieces of gear and work on maxing them out. This is progression. Something they enjoy and find challenge and accomplishment in. Once it becomes unfun it becomes a grind. 

A rank 0 can complete these challenges, if, they have the skill necessary. 

The only real grind needed would be for mods, but that is unavoidable in the current system. 

 

Which is exactly my point, fishing for the mods, ranking them, etc. so they can complete the "challenge" is rewarding grind in and of itself (particularly since say, killing level 45 mobs on your own typically requires specialized builds).

 

You can't say you don't want to reward grind on the one hand, and require it on the other. If you want it to be actually challenge-based rather than just another gear-check, that requires it being doable regardless of gear, no if's and's or but's. Anything else is a double-standard.

[LukeAura]

Which is exactly my point, fishing for the mods, ranking them, etc. so they can complete the "challenge" is rewarding grind in and of itself 

 

You can't say you don't want to reward grind on the one hand, and require it on the other. If you want it to be actually challenge-based rather than just another gear-check, that requires it being doable regardless of gear, no if's and's or but's. Anything else is a double-standard.

There just isn't much challenge to being gear independent. There has to be some form of progression to allow for the diversity and experimentation with solutions. Even in parkour we have stamina and sprint mods to make that easier. Nothing is truly gear independent unless mods are removed from the equation.

And you could limit all forms of modding, but then people would just bring the best/all around weapon and the frame with the best stats they could grab at rank 0, limiting the creativity. There would be very close to 1 build for each item.

The grind for mods is a necessary evil. It can be focused even. You design your build and then hunt the mods for it. You can't get this level of accuracy and control through just grinding weapons until you reach a mastery point. But there would be no one optimal way. 

 

 

(particularly since say, killing level 45 mobs on your own typically requires specialized builds).

 

Not a suggestion, an example. It is only to get his point across the more powerful the weapon is the more difficult it is to be obtained. 

Also, Endgame 2.0 is coming in. A more powerful than what you need for level 45s gun might be necessary to handle specific challenges found in it. Not necessarily stronger enemies though. 

[kaboomonme]

This "Challenge" thing would have been a lot easier to implement if Damage 2.0 did what everyone hoped it would have done, but didn't. Which is to eliminate "Vertical Progression" or something like that (the term they kept using back in older livestreams).

Oh well. It sounded too crazy to pull off anyways, sad to see that it really didn't happen. 

[Taranis49]

There just isn't much challenge to being gear independent. There has to be some form of progression to allow for the diversity and experimentation with solutions. Even in parkour we have stamina and sprint mods to make that easier. Nothing is truly gear independent unless mods are removed from the equation.

And you could limit all forms of modding, but then people would just bring the best/all around weapon and the frame with the best stats they could grab at rank 0, limiting the creativity. There would be very close to 1 build for each item.

The grind for mods is a necessary evil. It can be focused even. You design your build and then hunt the mods for it. You can't get this level of accuracy and control through just grinding weapons until you reach a mastery point. But there would be no one optimal way. 

 

 

False equivalence: When it comes to parkour, those mods "make it easier", but you can still complete any parkour area in the game with an unmodded frame if you're skilled enough (and yes, without coptering too).

 

By contrast, the same can't be said of being able to kill high-level enemies in a timely fashion (i.e. as needed in survival) with an unmodded weapon due to the simple math of DPS/Damage mitigation from armor.

 

And I'm still not seeing an answer the inherent contradiction in the proposal; there's still no good answer why mastery-locking is somehow bad simply because it "rewards grinding", while requiring ranked/leveled mods (which necessitate grinding) in the same breath. Both proposals reward grinding :-/

[LukeAura]

And I'm still not seeing an answer the inherent contradiction in the proposal; there's still no good answer why mastery-locking is somehow bad simply because it "rewards grinding", while requiring ranked/leveled mods (which necessitate grinding) in the same breath. Both proposals reward grinding :-/

I suppose it is more taste than anything then. Mods allow for individuality and expression of playstyle(Or at least should.). While necessary to have grinding, it offers individualization. A feeling that it's not just my skill that has triumphed but my style of play. 

You'd have two options for Parkour challenges in terms of frames. And probably one optimal weapon.

And two options for combat. With probably one optimal weapon still.

It'd be a lot harder to make the same judgements about mod necessary missions. I play Loki, someone else plays Frost. I can complete these because I know Loki, and have mods specifically for Loki. He has mods specifically for Frost, and he knows Frost. We can't make the judgement which is better or makes the missions easier because after modding them to be so powerful it becomes harder to tell, in most cases any ways.

There is probably also the implication that these are meant for after you have completed the planets as well. Prime gear are essentially endgame weapons, so I don't think you want people jumping to them without playing the midgame.

So you've already beaten Krill and the Hyena pack, and you've likely already collected a fair share of mods as it is.

 

[notionphil]

If you're going to argue for it being genuinely challenge-based and not a reward for grind, it needs to be gear-independent.

 

In such a gear based game, there is not going to be a truly gear independent combat challenge, and I'm not sure why you think the two are mutually exclusive.

 

I don't have a problem with a challenge being based on combination of grind and skill. I just want it to be based on more than just grind.

 

The more skill (including skill in building an appropriate loadout, not just skill in combat) you bring to the challenge, the less grind you'll need.

[LazyKnight]

In such a gear based game, there is not going to be a truly gear independent combat challenge, and I'm not sure why you think the two are mutually exclusive.

 

I don't have a problem with a challenge being based on combination of grind and skill. I just want it to be based on more than just grind.

 

The more skill (including skill in building an appropriate loadout, not just skill in combat) you bring to the challenge, the less grind you'll need.

I am just going to say this because Monster Hunter Freedom Untie has a very good example of how to do challenge-mode (I have played other games that did this as well and it works well, because all challenges are doable). I am not for or against the idea of challenge lock verse mastery lock.

 

The best way to do this is to have a challenge-mode have a pre-selected loadout (both weapons and character) that a player has to use when undergoing the challenge. This ensures that the developers gave a setup they know can clear the obstacle in question. This also lets them make it a hard yet fair because it does not require items a player might not even have.

 

This is probably something they should consider doing for the mastery test anyway, as it would get rid of the random fail people have by not having the correct Warframe or setup.

Edited March 18, 2014 by LazyKnight

[Taranis49]

In such a gear based game, there is not going to be a truly gear independent combat challenge, and I'm not sure why you think the two are mutually exclusive.

 

I don't have a problem with a challenge being based on combination of grind and skill. I just want it to be based on more than just grind.

 

The more skill (including skill in building an appropriate loadout, not just skill in combat) you bring to the challenge, the less grind you'll need.

 

Because they are. As I noted, it's contradictory on its face to say you don't want it to be a reward for grind on one hand, yet have criteria that actually require grind on the other.

 

If you want to argue for it being challenge-based, it needs to be doable regardless of the gear the player has, otherwise it's just another gear/grind check, nothing more.

 

In the some of the suggestions given for supposed "challenges", the challenge is anything but for veterans with fully-ranked base damage mods, multishots, and the mods needed to build all of the elemental combos. No matter how skilled a newer guy might be, it's still ultimately only a test of whether he grinded for enough cores/credits to rank Serration/Hornet strike to an acceptable point and/or if he's been able to get a critical mod like Stormbringer to drop so they can create a radiation/corrosive/magnetic build. It's a grind/gear check in either case, and it's only arguably "challenge-based" for one of them.

 

The post above mine has a good suggestion in that regard, e.g. pre-selected loadouts. Of course, then there's an issue where skilled/talented/lucky newbies could potentially still get the stuff sooner than you'd apparently like, but if you want to make it legitimately challenge-based, that entails letting those chips fall where they may.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Taranis49

[ast00]

This is much needed, since primes are not mastery locked. Any mastery 2 noob can plat buy the Boltor Prime and kick &#!.

[Mirriky]

When I first saw this I was quite sceptical but after reading your explanation this is something I could really enjoy and look forward to doing.

 

I think DE needs to implement more unique challenges for guaranteed rewards than making everything RNG or $$$

[ExorcistEX]

I am on both agree and disagree...

 

Agree - people have to try their effort to gain the mys.rank or to get certain parts of the bp

 

Disagree - i will have less plat income by not able to sell my prime bp

[Geptor]

I am on both agree and disagree...

 

Agree - people have to try their effort to gain the mys.rank or to get certain parts of the bp

 

Disagree - i will have less plat income by not able to sell my prime bp

Depends on what you want - a good quality game with challege, or a crap one but with tons of profits with newbies that will teach you how to play because they bought the rewards of your games... 

Edited March 18, 2014 by Geptor

[notionphil]

Because they are. As I noted, it's contradictory on its face to say you don't want it to be a reward for grind on one hand, yet have criteria that actually require grind on the other.

 

If you want to argue for it being challenge-based, it needs to be doable regardless of the gear the player has, otherwise it's just another gear/grind check, nothing more.

 

In the some of the suggestions given for supposed "challenges", the challenge is anything but for veterans with fully-ranked base damage mods, multishots, and the mods needed to build all of the elemental combos. No matter how skilled a newer guy might be, it's still ultimately only a test of whether he grinded for enough cores/credits to rank Serration/Hornet strike to an acceptable point and/or if he's been able to get a critical mod like Stormbringer to drop so they can create a radiation/corrosive/magnetic build. It's a grind/gear check in either case, and it's only arguably "challenge-based" for one of them.

 

The post above mine has a good suggestion in that regard, e.g. pre-selected loadouts. Of course, then there's an issue where skilled/talented/lucky newbies could potentially still get the stuff sooner than you'd apparently like, but if you want to make it legitimately challenge-based, that entails letting those chips fall where they may.

 

By the time a player is at the tier of the game where they should have access to the weapon (IE: where it should be mastery locked if DE would comply), they will already have the appropriate gear from simply playing the game.

 

If you don't have a split chamber/hornet/etc, you should not have access to the Boltor Prime, as it will totally trivialize all non-late-game enemies. However, even if you do have them, you may still die repeatedly when trying to earn it. That is the challenge.

 

I see mastery 10 players die all the time on T3 survival - I doubt it's bc they don't have a required mod.

 

If players want to get the gear before the point that their gear is ready for that challenge then yes, it is going to vary between difficult to nearly impossible. I say nearly because of how powerful certain Frames are. Warframe needs some aspirational items that you can feel you've earned.

 

I am going to clarify the OP and the other post that are confusing you to indicate that, maybe others are confused as well.

 

Note - the idea about the gear free challenge is interesting, however there's not enough in WF that rewards you for actually gearing up well - and then makes you play a challenging mission intended for that gear. What's the point of a 6 Forma weapon if there aren't any missions that actually benefit from it?

[Taranis49]

By the time a player is at the tier of the game where they should have access to the weapon (IE: where it should be mastery locked if DE would comply), they will already have the appropriate gear from simply playing the game.

 

If you don't have a split chamber/hornet/etc, you should not have access to the Boltor Prime, as it will totally trivialize all non-late-game enemies. However, even if you do have them, you may still die repeatedly when trying to earn it. That is the challenge.

 

I see mastery 10 players die all the time on T3 survival - I doubt it's bc they don't have a required mod.

 

If players want to get the gear before the point that their gear is ready for that challenge then yes, it is going to vary between difficult to nearly impossible. I say nearly because of how powerful certain Frames are. Warframe needs some aspirational items that you can feel you've earned.

 

I am going to clarify the OP and the other post that are confusing you to indicate that, maybe others are confused as well.

 

Note - the idea about the gear free challenge is interesting, however there's not enough in WF that rewards you for actually gearing up well - and then makes you play a challenging mission intended for that gear. What's the point of a 6 Forma weapon if there aren't any missions that actually benefit from it?

 

The issue being you're still rewarding grind by any other name: you even admit as much in that "oh, they should have a multishot mod by that point" (says who?), it's just RNG grind you apparently think is okay because... banana - ultimately, there's no difference to that and just keeping the current RNG system for the BP itself except that it's even more arbitrary. Challenge still doesn't enter into the equation, it's just another grind/gear check - by advocating that they "should" have specific gear/mods, you're not actually advocating challenge-based rewards.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Taranis49

[notionphil]

The issue being you're still rewarding grind by any other name: you even admit as much in that "oh, they should have a multishot mod by that point" (says who?), it's just RNG grind you apparently think is okay because... banana - ultimately, there's no difference to that and just keeping the current RNG system for the BP itself except that it's even more arbitrary. Challenge still doesn't enter into the equation, it's just another grind/gear check - by advocating that they "should" have specific gear/mods, you're not actually advocating challenge-based rewards.

 

We are gonna agree to disagree on this one :)

[LazyKnight]

Note - the idea about the gear free challenge is interesting, however there's not enough in WF that rewards you for actually gearing up well - and then makes you play a challenging mission intended for that gear. What's the point of a 6 Forma weapon if there aren't any missions that actually benefit from it?

Let me be very clear, it would be far harder and feel rewarding when you win when you are given a pre-set loadout. The entire point of a challenge mode is to be placed in a less than ideal circumstance and have to use the limited tools given to you in order to clear the challenge.

 

Gear obtained via acquisition of a challenge mode mission is meant to be used in other parts of the game. It is not indented for a challenge mission to be a gear check and it invalidates any difficulty curve. Weapons and gear are supposed to be used for actual combat mission.

 

Take this from someone who has played way too many video games and thoroughly enjoys beating hard mode: Any game that lets me use my own gear for a challenge mission is always way too easy. DE needs to make other places that you want the challenge-mode gear and have it a separate part of the game.

 

All you want is a grind mission, and would be a waste of time for DE to implement, because mastery would do exactly the same thing.  DE would be better off spending their time to make loot distribution via overpowered killer bosses that 99% of people would never be able to kill. That is a tested method that works, and people feel elite when they final get the item.

Edited March 18, 2014 by LazyKnight

[HAYABU5A]

great idea but prob too late at this point 

[notionphil]

Let me be very clear, it would be far harder and feel rewarding when you win when you are given a pre-set load out. The entire point of a challenge mode is to be placed in a less than ideal circumstance and have to use the limited tools given to you in order to clear the challenge.

 

Gear obtained via acquisition of a challenge mode mission, is meant to be used in other parts of the game. It is not indented for a challenge mission to be a gear check and it invalidates any difficulty curve. Weapons and gear are supposed to be used for actual combat mission.

 

Take this from some who has played way too many video games and thoroughly enjoys beating hard mode: Any game that lets me use my own gear for a challenge mission is always way too easy. DE needs to make other places that you want the challenge-mode gear and have it a separate part of the game.

 

All you want is a grind mission, and would be a waste of time for DE to implement, because mastery would do exactly the same thing.  DE would be better off spending their time to make loot distribution via overpowered killer bosses that 99% of people would never be able to kill. That is a tested method that works, and people feel elite when they final get the item.

 

I love gear limited challenge modes. Remember Cells? The entire 'challenge' system was exactly that. "Defeat this mission using only ash, with a skana."

 

Overpowered killer bosses, I'm fine with that too.

 

This game needs a variety of challenge modes, and I feel that the one I'm proposing, while the least challenging and most gear based, is also the most simple to implement and the most conventional. It's a standard in game challenge.

 

No enemies, new UI or levels need to added. Just a key, that you run, which takes you to a mission that already exists. Other challenge concepts should also be added to the game.

 

Possibly you (and possibly Taranis) don't find anything in the game challenging, but I do even with a very, very complete loadout (I have basically everything). I die all the time on high level content when solo. I'd personally find X minutes in lv 45 content to be a challenge.

Edited March 18, 2014 by notionphil

[LazyKnight]

Possibly you (and possibly Taranis) don't find anything in the game challenging, but I do even with a very, very complete loadout (I have basically everything). I die all the time on high level content when solo. I'd personally find X minutes in lv 45 content to be a challenge.

The reason why I am saying that it wouldn't work to let people use what they want, is because there is a glaring imbalance in the survivability of Warframes. If people used Trinity, Rhino, or Zephyr nearly all test that had a player deal with survival would be too easy. It would require DE to take a carving knife to the balance table to make it an even playing field.

 

A player's weapons can easily be mitigated by having the NPC adjusted relative to player strength. I am sure the clever people at DE can have a rating system on people's weapons, so people do not get level 20 NPC when they have a maxed out Brakk. Weapons are easy to fix because they are at least predictable. With the exception being ones like Penta that can use elevation to bombard the NPC from a distance. 

Edited March 18, 2014 by LazyKnight

[DeadlyNerd]

I like this.

 

Having to run a very difficult challenge that requires perks of a Rhino, to get Rhino prime, would bring logic to how these primes are acquired.

I'm not acting as a victim of RNG here, advocating anything against it, but as someone who'd like to see fluff in this game. Adding new items instead of gameplay can keep players entertained only for so long.

 

Mastery locks are still a bad idea. Mastery is a grind reward, how ever you want to look at it.

[Liminal]

Yes. I'm on board for random challenges like those examples. They sound fun.

[notionphil]

The reason why I am saying that it wouldn't work to let people use what they want, is because there is a glaring imbalance in the survivability of Warframes. If people used Trinity, Rhino, or Zephyr nearly all test that had a player deal with survival would be too easy. It would require DE to take a carving knife to the balance table to make it an even playing field.

 

A player's weapons can easily be mitigated by having the NPC adjusted relative to player strength. I am sure the clever people at DE can have a rating system on people's weapons, so people do not get level 20 NPC when they have a maxed out Brakk. Weapons are easy to fix because they are at least predictable. With the exception being ones like Penta that can use elevation to bombard the NPC from a distance. 

 

I actually agree with everything you've written here, and that's a really frustrating shortcoming of Warframe. Some frames are so specialized for survival, or killing, that they would nearly trivialize content which would be frustratingly hard (but still possible) for other frames.

 

Though I agree, I am going to chalk that up to a balance problem and say "that sucks, but I still think these challenges are a good idea". Yes, they will be unbalanced, but balance in general needs to be seriously addressed. I have a ton of threads on that topic as well - so its not that I am ignoring your point.

 

I am just saying that despite balance issues, I would still like to see this in game. Is the solution that you just have to run a Rhino for the survival challenge if your Nyx dies a few times? Maybe so. I know, for example, I had to used a glaive on the Stealth Rank up Mastery test and it made it a ton easier. Was that cheating? Dunno, I thought I was being creative :)

 

This does not negate/preclude my desire to see 'gear limited/gear fixed' challenges in game as well.