Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[taiiat]

but ultimately I think there's more outcry to just get the Eximus version of Fire Blast.

mayhaps, but tbh, i don't see that 'Fire Explosion' being particularly useful for us. sure, you'll giggle on Mercury where it'll wipe the map... but it's probably not going to be hugely effective. it may stagger of knockdown Enemies, but other than that, it probably wouldn't do much, since their 'Fire Explosion' doesn't really do much other than that. it does a fair amount of Damage at higher Levels, but i digress.

[Archwizard]

mayhaps, but tbh, i don't see that 'Fire Explosion' being particularly useful for us. sure, you'll giggle on Mercury where it'll wipe the map... but it's probably not going to be hugely effective. it may stagger of knockdown Enemies, but other than that, it probably wouldn't do much, since their 'Fire Explosion' doesn't really do much other than that. it does a fair amount of Damage at higher Levels, but i digress.

 

Oh no, I don't expect we'd ever get the full version with the super expansion, just like I don't expect Snow Globe to ever follow Frost like on the ice leaders or for Volt to have an energy drain in PVP. But having Fire Blast deal some amount of CC (the knockback) would be one Hek of a boon.

[taiiat]

Oh no, I don't expect we'd ever get the full version with the super expansion, just like I don't expect Snow Globe to ever follow Frost like on the ice leaders or for Volt to have an energy drain in PVP. But having Fire Blast deal some amount of CC (the knockback) would be one Hek of a boon.

- i do expect Snowglobe to eventually look as neat as the Leader Snowglobe, the (whatever geometric shape it was that i can't remember the name of) shape it has plus the edge glow looks a lot nicer than the Tenno Slowglobe, which is very bland.

 

- Volt does Electric Damage, i think you mean Mag, but yeah, definitely not expecting that.

 

 

anyways, Fire Blast does have some CC, but it's not very good. 100% Chance to Ignite nearby Enemies when placed, but... after that... wtf? it doesn't do anything other than some DoT. so it's cool when you cast it, and only becomes decoration after that >:c

[Archwizard]

- Volt does Electric Damage, i think you mean Mag, but yeah, definitely not expecting that.

 

I mean that they're called Shock Exima now and are marked "electrical attacks and auras", which cause the disruption effect. But, that's besides the point.

 

anyways, Fire Blast does have some CC, but it's not very good. 100% Chance to Ignite nearby Enemies when placed, but... after that... wtf? it doesn't do anything other than some DoT. so it's cool when you cast it, and only becomes decoration after that >:c

 

Which is Ember's biggest issue, that all she can do is apply the same DoT or debuff enemies to make them more vulnerable to it. The OP has a change to let her place multiple fire DoTs on a target at once, so she has some payoff for how single-minded her attacks are, but she still needs some variety in execution.

[Elydir]

Oberon was in todays comunity hot topics. It will be nice to see his abilities finally get the revamp they deserve, although it looks like not a lot of people thing Reckoning needs one, pretty disappointing.

[taiiat]

although it looks like not a lot of people thing Reckoning needs one, pretty disappointing.

how could they not? it's a super bland 'muh Deeps' type of Power. :/

q.q

[Archwizard]

Oberon was in todays comunity hot topics. It will be nice to see his abilities finally get the revamp they deserve, although it looks like not a lot of people thing Reckoning needs one, pretty disappointing.

 

To be fair, Reckoning is the most reliable of his damaging abilities and has a minor utility to boot. Most of the problems with it come from the RNG roll that requires a killing blow, and the damage type being so... niche.

 

I'm actually considering changing Oberon's abilities in the OP one more time to properly balance the defensive and damaging capabilities of him. For example, I think Reckoning should be revamped to an execution skill, and Smite should instead deal some kind of Slash damage to be most effective against Infested (perhaps a blinding blade attack?).

[Archwizard]

I'm actually considering changing Oberon's abilities in the OP one more time to properly balance the defensive and damaging capabilities of him. For example, I think Reckoning should be revamped to an execution skill, and Smite should instead deal some kind of Slash damage to be most effective against Infested

 

Speaking of, just did so.

 

I'm actually very happy with how it turned out. As much as I liked the idea of each of his skills blending offense and defense, the role of a paladin is that of a weapon of a holy order, and he's not supposed to be Trinity. He just needs enough utility to not be overshadowed by Trinity in all fields, with reliable and low-maintenance attacks to be enjoyable and dynamic.

[Elydir]

I really like the melee emphasis you have on his first two abilities and the heavier protection, but something about Reckoning kinda bugs me. Cant put my finger on it.

[Zarlockk]

Awesome suggestions imo. But desecrate must stay. Frost and ember changes are awesome too.

[Archwizard]

But desecrate must stay.

 

I've already voiced my thoughts on this several times (including twice in the OP), so I'll spare you the full-blown rant.

 

However, I would just like to mention that Scott noted in the last livestream that Carrier's Vacuum will likely become a precept for all Sentinels, leading to an opening for Carrier to get a new ability.

Give a loot generator to Carrier, and a life drain to Nekros in place of it, and you can save everyone a heap of trouble. Desecrate becomes available to everyone, and Nekros players no longer have to spam 3 to the exclusion of other skills; depending on how its implemented, it could also limit the number of Carriers you'll want to bring to the party.

The OP also has some changes to make stealth play a lucrative alternative to loot generation, creating some variety in terms of playstyle or sentinel used, without actively becoming the whole playstyle.

 

So your loot grinding can stay safe, and you can use any frame you want for it.

[Elydir]

depending on how its implemented, it could also limit the number of Carriers you'll want to bring to the party.

 

Whadya mean by that? itd be nice, since I'd like to use something else once ina  while, but I feel like making Carrier make loot would just increase demand for it

[Hecro]

Love that Volt hanging the shield

[Archwizard]

Whadya mean by that? itd be nice, since I'd like to use something else once ina  while, but I feel like making Carrier make loot would just increase demand for it

 

Well with the current iteration of Desecrate, one Nekros is sufficient in any party - you can use more to fill in the gaps between one's Desecrate casts, but you can make due with one. A looting skill has multiple tuning knobs that can be adjusted - radius, effectiveness, duration, cost, etc. - especially on a Sentinel, since they have a working version of cooldowns. It could release a high-chance pulse every so often like it does now with Vacuum, or create a constant radius around the player with more chances to loot corpses you pass based on how long you stand near them, or even just be a party-wide aura that passively increases loot generation (the latter of which, even if it doesn't become a Sentinel skill, can always be turned into an aura card). There are several ways to do it, and as long as the entire party can pick up the loot generated, virtually all of them preferable to one person mashing 3 instead of playing the game.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

virtually all of them preferable to one person mashing 3 instead of playing the game.

i'd still rather just not have things that wreck the Randomizer in Warframe and cause artificially low Chances to account for people using Desecrate - and instead just have reasonable Chances, that will still take a good bit of time most likely, but not ones that are made specifically lower because of Desecrate existing.

 

being able to multiply loot by existence means that it's 'required' :s

 

i'd rather that just not be a thing. but short of that, yes, making sure someone doesn't need to go to sleep waving his hand the entire match instead of actually playing, is a good start.

[RealPandemonium]

Nekros chain-casting 3 to the exclusion of all else is a myth.  It is unnecessary to spam 3 every second, especially when NT and max range mods are equipped.  

[taiiat]

It is unnecessary to spam 3 every second

unnecessary, but it's how you use the Power most effectively. if you're going to multiply loot by ~3x on Enemies, you might as well do it on all of them.

[RealPandemonium]

unnecessary, but it's how you use the Power most effectively. if you're going to multiply loot by ~3x on Enemies, you might as well do it on all of them.

How does spamming get you 3x loot?  Also, it's only necessary to make sure it procs when you are desecrating particular corpses for particular loot, such as Powerfists for Malicious Raptor and so on.

[LasersGoPewPew]

if you want to enact frame synergy to the game, take a few pages from Mass Effect; elemental frames  should be able to cause elemental explosions or procs when their abilities hit within the same second(or even a few seconds after) and make enemies explode on death (up to 5 meters radius)dealing the primary elements damage type.(which would make that kill turn into a CC thing because the explosion could stagger enemies caught in its radius)

 

Trinity suggestions:

Well of Life:make WoL a toggle that regenerates X health a second to allies within Y radius at Z energy a second.(the X,Y,Z variables could be decided ala Devs or player choice, idk)

 

Energy Vampire: let EV seek out a random target within X radius if the original target dies, until its' duration ends

 

Link:fine as is, although i'd love it if it gave a % DR per enemy linked(up to a balanced %)

 

Blessing:let us recast it while the DR buff is in play or give allies the maximum amount of DR allowed by the game engine(ala 80-90%) regardless of how much health your recipients had,(people using corrupted mod based builds (-duration,+75% efficiency) would still be able to spam blessing, but players who don't have corrupted mods to throw on would be able to actually help their teammates for a good period of time per cast.

 

my two cents on what i think  Trinity needs, and how frame synergy could be applied in warframe.

[Archwizard]

Well of Life:make WoL a toggle that regenerates X health a second to allies within Y radius at Z energy a second.(the X,Y,Z variables could be decided ala Devs or player choice, idk)

 

Energy Vampire: let EV seek out a random target within X radius if the original target dies, until its' duration ends

 

Blessing:let us recast it while the DR buff is in play or give allies the maximum amount of DR allowed by the game engine(ala 80-90%) regardless of how much health your recipients had,(people using corrupted mod based builds (-duration,+75% efficiency) would still be able to spam blessing, but players who don't have corrupted mods to throw on would be able to actually help their teammates for a good period of time per cast.

 

WoL: But then... that would just be Renewal on a toggle (so, exactly what is in the OP for Renewal).

 

EV: Unnecessary, since EV now releases extra energy when the target dies. The target's already stunned for the entire duration - even bosses, last I checked (though admittedly, it was a while ago).

 

Blessing: An interesting alternative, but I think the maximum allowed by the game engine is 100%. Double-casting isn't really a good limiter for Trinity anyway, since EV gives her an infinite amount of energy on-demand.

[LasersGoPewPew]

WoL: But then... that would just be Renewal on a toggle (so, exactly what is in the OP for Renewal).

 

EV: Unnecessary, since EV now releases extra energy when the target dies. The target's already stunned for the entire duration - even bosses, last I checked (though admittedly, it was a while ago).

 

Blessing: An interesting alternative, but I think the maximum allowed by the game engine is 100%. Double-casting isn't really a good limiter for Trinity anyway, since EV gives her an infinite amount of energy on-demand.

as trinity has no offense moves to keep herself alive; she should have energy efficient and overall usable abilities, i don't want to cast blessing when i see someone at 5 health just to see that same person die within 2 seconds of being "blessed" with the maximum DR the ability allows (as the recipient has to be at a near death state for the full DR boost)

[Neo-Dark]

I'm going to need to argue against two of the Rhino ideas, sorry but it's necessary.

Rhino's speed as it is now (non-prime) actually lessens his ability to climb in general, adding negative gravity and reducing the Arcane Vanguard Helmet will just compound the problem.

The speed of movement affects how high you can climb a wall in one run before needing to backflip and climb another. In the case of Rhino he moves too slow to actually climb to certain Void areas naturally (which others can), requiring a backflip to second wallrun.

The Arcane Vanguard helmet very much helps negate this problem making movement issues caused by the lessened speed non-existent, HOWEVER the helmet is not that common anymore, and will become rarer as time goes on, and thus it's not a solution to the movement speed problem for climbing. Also, reducing Power Strength by 5% (that's about 60 HP on a max level Iron Skin, w/o Intensify, and about 40 damage on a Rhino Stomp, w/o Intensify) in exchange for giving Rhino a 10% increase in speed is not that great a trade off, especially when that still puts Rhino as fast as your average Warframe. Also, compare it to others, e.g. Arcane Loki Essence helmet, a gain of 15% efficiency for a loss of 5% armor, and it's not even that strong, intending more to get Rhino in the fight quicker so he can start tanking sooner.

Also, adding gravity (in the case of Rhino he'd probably drop 1.1 or 1.2 times as fast) would result in Rhino requiring potentially 2 to 3 times as many jumps to get up a wall compared to other warframes, as well as making certain wall climbs at what is currently almost max distance (essentially you make up BARELY the amount you fell, one "treasure" room seen in both Void and Derelict comes to mind) in the void and derelict impossible for a Rhino.

At this point I just think you wish to make movement more difficult for Rhino's, thinking everyone will be in Rhino Primes.

[taiiat]

Rhino's speed as it is now (non-prime) actually lessens his ability to climb in general, adding negative gravity and reducing the Arcane Vanguard Helmet will just compound the problem.

 

Also, reducing Power Strength by 5% (that's about 60 HP on a max level Iron Skin, w/o Intensify, and about 40 damage on a Rhino Stomp, w/o Intensify) in exchange for giving Rhino a 10% increase in speed is not that great a trade off, especially when that still puts Rhino as fast as your average Warframe.

- that slower Sprint Speed is a balancing factor. and for good reason, when you look at the Skillset and see what it brings to the table.

 

- the Vanguard Helmet is +25% Sprint Speed, and -5% Power Strength.

where are you getting your information again? because where ever that is, you should stop getting it from there.

 

the Vanguard Helmet is basically broken as so many people have pointed out, just by looking at those specs and then glancing at the specs of other Helmets. it's a free massive upgrade. no other Helmet even comes close to that level of upgrade. which has always been the point of issue.

[Archwizard]

-snip-

 

I'd just like to point out a few things.

 

1) Based on my experience with Zephyr, wallrunning height wasn't affected in any way by her decreased gravity (it was affected her movement speed, as with all frames; it didn't even affect the duration of sliding down the wall once stamina run out); however, her wall-kickoff and copter distances were reduced. In theory, increasing Rhino's gravity would give him more kickoff distance and copter speed, as well as more output from Heavy Impact or melee jumpslams. The cost would be in average standing/running jumps and airslides, but elseways it could actually be an improvement to someone who doesn't have a Super Jump or any real emphasis on airtime (and can be countered the way his speed always has been - Charging).

 

2) You're claiming that I assume everyone will use Rhino Prime, but you're assuming that everyone will use Arcane Vanguard - especially as Rhino Prime can still be obtained. (Bit hypocritical, no?) Yes, Arcane Vanguard allows a Rhino Prime to tie with Loki for the highest sprint speed in the game, but even unprimed that still surpasses the majority of lighter-armored frames - which makes him easily the most versatile frame in the game. Reducing Vanguard to/by 10-15% will still allow the Rhino to meet the running speed of the average frame.

 

3) You're complaining that it's a tradeoff of 40 damage on Rhino Stomp? That's less than one bullet on a capped automatic rifle. That's not a tradeoff, that's a joke.

 

Rhino is supposed to be, quoth the Codex, "the heaviest Warframe". I chose to exemplify that in the OP in the manner that would impair the mobility of an average Rhino player the least; gravity changes are more of a tradeoff than a boon or penalty, which just gives more experienced players another level to play with (which couples well with the fact that Rhino is the only frame who is Mastery-locked).

Edited July 20, 2014 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

I altered Ember's section in the OP some more just to simplify things; while I liked the idea of trapping enemies in the circle of flames, it was too chaotic to have Fire Blast do the roles of both knocking enemies away and trapping them on their way back. It's actually rather interesting thinking about just how swapping the order of two abilities can have a profound effect on how you play - either you root them all and burn them more severely, or you knock them away and then freeze them in place.

 

Times like this I consider making a section of the OP devoted to giving each frame an alternate ability, though. I keep being tempted to give Ember a channeled flamethrower in place of Fire Blast, or Volt a mobile thunderstorm ultimate, or even have Nekros play around with resources.