Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Acegikmo]

Why not just make it so when you melee a target with venom, they all explode? Saryn is a melee-ish Warframe, so allowing that venom explosion on melee would give incentive to go into the fray.

[taiiat]

Why not just make it so when you melee a target with venom, they all explode? Saryn is a melee-ish Warframe, so allowing that venom explosion on melee would give incentive to go into the fray.

that certainly couldn't hurt. and adds one more small feature to the list of things to make Melee useful without needing to out DPS guns.

[Archwizard]

Why not just make it so when you melee a target with venom, they all explode? Saryn is a melee-ish Warframe, so allowing that venom explosion on melee would give incentive to go into the fray.

 

Sure it incentivizes melee, but on the other hand you have 6 carefully aimed bullets being equated to one hit with any melee weapon - be it a hammer or a dagger.

It might make sense if it were a killing blow (A good hit to the gut just overpressurized the spores with your blood? Or how about just dividing you in half, right through the remainder?) but not on every melee hit.

 

It's honestly the main draw of the Allure skill, since you could tap it when you're in melee range for both extra damage and to pop spores.

[taiiat]

It might make sense if it were a killing blow

that's perfectly acceptable too.

[Duralumin]

I just want to see Nyx's Mind Control buff the target's damage output substantially so there's actually a reason to use it against anything but the biggest meat sponges and shield drones

[Archwizard]

I just want to see Nyx's Mind Control buff the target's damage output substantially so there's actually a reason to use it against anything but the biggest meat sponges and shield drones

 

Honestly, I think having halfway decent AI and not being immediately murdered while the target is still staggered by the animation would be enough of a damage increase.

[DarthBane1]

I think embers changes are agreed with. I don't know about doing a knockback though. I'm thinking like a Literal pillar of fire instead of a stupid ring. Maybe something a lot like frost. Where instead of having the bullets "Deflect" off of the ball it melts within the fire

[MechaKnight]

It might make sense if it were a killing blow

that's perfectly acceptable too.

I suspect the killing blow requirement may create a similar problem where Oberon's health orbs from Reckoning weren't considered a good enough feature for Reckoning since it became too difficult to kill enemies in late-wave infinite content. This is why the crowd control is the main feature of Reckoning and the orbs are a tiny feature comparable to a cherry on top.

 

A Contagion rework should have spore popping as a high priority, or it should be considerably good without considering the spread-on-death mechanism as you place it on top of the rest of the ability's features.

Edited October 10, 2014 by MechaKnight

[taiiat]

-snip-

detonates one Spore on each Swing. about equal to a Firearm then. except it detonates regardless of where you're swinging.

[Archwizard]

detonates one Spore on each Swing. about equal to a Firearm then. except it detonates regardless of where you're swinging.

 

Fair enough, added to the OP.

 

Simultaneously subtracted the full Oberon write-up (don't worry, it's catalogued in case I change my mind) and added a few extra notes to Nekros' section.

[MechaKnight]

Suggestions to be considered for Molt:

 

If the explosion contacts a target covered in spores, it could spread a spore from that target upon impact.

Molt can hold Venom spores on itself, then spread them when it explodes.

[OHyeahWF]

For Ember, i dont think she need much changes, just increase aoe burn effect on every world on fire burst. Also within the duration increase weapon status chance, it will be awesome !

Edited October 11, 2014 by OHyeahWF

[crafturtoemc]

-1 For me, thx.....useless LOL

[taiiat]

For Ember, i dont think she need much changes, just increase aoe burn effect on every world on fire burst. Also within the duration increase weapon status chance, it will be awesome !

like every frame, Ember has 4 Abilities. World on Fire is one.

you forgot the other 3.

 

and if anything, the Power(s) would add and increase the Chance for Fire Status from your Weapons, not just in general.

[Archwizard]

-1 For me, thx.....useless LOL

 

It would be more constructive for you to elaborate on what in the OP you found objectionable or why you have an issue with it.

[Elydir]

 

I think focusing on the anti-melee attribute makes more sense with her toolkit and purpose. Consider that the enemies most vulnerable to Heat damage are light Infested and unarmored Grineer - melee units like Butchers and Powerfists. Given her status as a light-armored Warframe, their claws and blades make them natural predators; as a fire elemental, they're her natural prey. She can deal with ranged units by virtue of her own far-reaching attacks. 

Besides, just because it's a defensive skill doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to be used offensively. I can certainly imagine someone running into a room with World on Fire, hitting Accelerant, Blasting enemies out of range and bombarding them with Fireballs. If someone wants a way to blend all four of their skills in one toolkit, let 'em.

 

Alternately, it could be a sort of meteor-strike technique just to implement everything -

Toggled skill, Ember rockets toward the target location - "landing" at the first surface or enemy that impedes her - and blows everyone away from her impact point, leaving a ring of flames (status chance not quite 100%). Would give her more mobility AND control in one skill, plus working with World on Fire in-transit.

 

I kinda like the direction this is going, but at the same time feel like its way to much for a 75 energy skill. Leaving it as a area CC makes it an awful lot like Bastille with damage and no the target limit. Giving it a rocket boost sounds really cool but also means shes not a range class.

 

I think the problem with Ember is that the devs didn't really think about what they wanted from her outside of damage. The flailing burn thing worked okay back in Damage 1.0 when every fire attack caused it, but they traded off a lot of her CC for damage since.

[Archwizard]

I kinda like the direction this is going, but at the same time feel like its way to much for a 75 energy skill. Leaving it as a area CC makes it an awful lot like Bastille with damage and no the target limit. Giving it a rocket boost sounds really cool but also means shes not a range class.

 

I think the problem with Ember is that the devs didn't really think about what they wanted from her outside of damage. The flailing burn thing worked okay back in Damage 1.0 when every fire attack caused it, but they traded off a lot of her CC for damage since.

 

Not to mention, back in Damage 1.0, her skills were the only ways to inflict Fire DoT (which is what ultimately made her 'unique') and one of them even ignored armor. She's in sort of a sad state today by comparison - where Freeze trumps slow effects and Shock has evolved to amplify Electric procs, Fireball utterly relies on Heat procs to maintain its 'unique' effect and even has a chance not to inflict them.

 

Of course, pre-Damage 2.0 was also the time when every weapon was built to inflict the full spectrum of elemental effects, since every enemy had armor and half had shields too. Fire damage wasn't terribly useful beyond the proc, which similar to today, shared the stunning effect with Electric (just with a different audience).

 

Arguably, the present state of Heat damage as a form of CC is vastly inferior to Electric. They deal approximately the same paralysis effect per target, and Heat's greater single-target damage output could be considered on par with Electric's AoE... but someone overlooked Electric's ability to stun everyone it affects. (Of course, my observational skills may not be entirely reliable - let me know if you observe differently towards their CC capabilities.)

 

With that tangent ended, I'd say that the definition of "too much for one skill" is becoming more of a case-by-case basis rather than any set standard. For example, Mirage's Hall of Mirrors involves a LOT, not only giving her evasive capabilities only slightly inferior to a Decoy/Invisibility combo, but also acting as a damage boost for every element of her arsenal barring her ultimate.

The only definition we can be certain of with a Warframe's skills is that the output of a 75 energy skill should exceed a 50 energy skill, and be weaker than a 100 energy skill (in neither case speaking towards cost effectiveness). Presently it doesn't do the former (as hard as that may be to say, given what would normally be an apples-to-oranges comparison, if not for the niche effectiveness of one to the other), and neither of the two suggestions listed outperform the latter.

 

I will agree that giving her mobility does conflict with the idea of making her a ranged class; were it not the goal, they wouldn't have removed Accelerant. Of course, that goal makes World on Fire all the more out of place...

Edited October 14, 2014 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

Added a note about Psychic Bolts to the OP. Was inspired to focus on the 'psychic' part of it by another suggestion I spotted in the forum.

 

Actually works rather well with the Mind Control note, if you think about it – heals an MC'd target after a few seconds, then damages them when the MC ends...

 

Suggestions to be considered for Molt:

 

If the explosion contacts a target covered in spores, it could spread a spore from that target upon impact.

Molt can hold Venom spores on itself, then spread them when it explodes.

 

I think I covered the first half of that with "more responsive to area-effect attacks", but I would consider the idea of putting the Venom spores on your Molt. Probably unnecessary with the ability to transfer buffs to it.

 

For Ember, i dont think she need much changes, just increase aoe burn effect on every world on fire burst. Also within the duration increase weapon status chance, it will be awesome !

 

Because that's what she really needs: more reason to run around with 98% World on Fire uptime.

 

Like I was saying before, ultimate spam should be deterred; give ultimates a trade-off, so you have to try using the other skills first and the ultimate as a last-resort. Presently Ember is the postergirl for the issue, since she only has reason to use two of her skills in any given build and Fire Blast is the unfortunate middle-child.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Archwizard

[Elydir]

Added a note about Psychic Bolts to the OP. Was inspired to focus on the 'psychic' part of it by another suggestion I spotted in the forum.

 

Actually works rather well with the Mind Control note, if you think about it – heals an MC'd target after a few seconds, then damages them when the MC ends...

 

Oooh, that's actually really brilliant. The finisher part makes sense for her to finally be doing PSYCHIC attacks.

[SuperTechmarine]

Damage abilities should deal, in addition to their normal damage, a percentage of their damage multiplied by their rank, so Radial Javelin maxed out, rank 5 would do 25000 damage in addition to the normal 1k, making it viable in the truly high levels where that kind of damage would shear of half an Ancient or Heavy Gunner's health.

 

Also, Warframes should have passive abilities in addition to their normal four others. Excal should do 20% more melee damage, Saryn has an increased status chance on her toxin damage, be it melee or ranged, same for Ember, Volt and Frost with their respective elements.

Edited October 17, 2014 by SuperTechmarine

[MechaKnight]

Like I was saying before, ultimate spam should be deterred; give ultimates a trade-off, so you have to try using the other skills first and the ultimate as a last-resort. Presently Ember is the postergirl for the issue, since she only has reason to use two of her skills in any given build and Fire Blast is the unfortunate middle-child.

I've been considering more synergy within abilities as a way to prevent spam and persuade players to use more of the ability kit on any given warframe. Synergy within different abilities on the same warframe. There are a few examples as of now like Loki's Decoy + Switch Teleport, and Valkyr's Warcry and Hysteria, but there could be more.

 

For example, Snow Globe being healed by a certain amount if the same Frost player casts any of his other three abilities while standing inside the Snow Globe. The abilities will work the same, but the additional bonus will persuade Frost players to widen their kits instead of run nothing but a dedicated Snow Globe build.

 

I have many other ideas, but I'll keep this post short. Synergy within abilities on the same warframe would give players an alternative between the usual min-maxing. Players can either bulk up power attributes onto their choice few abilities as normal, or carry more abilities which aid each other so even if you're not carrying as many strength, duration, range, and efficiency mods as you'd like, the synergy within abilities would have a unique appeal to balance that loss.

[Archwizard]

Damage abilities should deal, in addition to their normal damage, a percentage of their damage multiplied by their rank, so Radial Javelin maxed out, rank 5 would do 25000 damage in addition to the normal 1k, making it viable in the truly high levels where that kind of damage would shear of half an Ancient or Heavy Gunner's health.

 

Damage abilities already have their effectiveness increased by their rank (not enough!), and ability mods presently only go up to rank 3.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Archwizard

[taiiat]

so Radial Javelin maxed out, rank 5 would do 25000 damage in addition to the normal 1k

uhh... in other words, every Damage Ability in the game gets a 26x statcrepe, you're saying?

 

because that won't solve anything. it'll make the Solar Map more of a joke, without actually addressing or helping the issue when you're going into unnecessary content.

 

if Damage Abilities also dealt a Percentage of their Damage as Finisher Damage, that would be closer to something to help the problem.

but those 'infinite' Level Enemies also have 'infinite' EHP, making Damage Abilities in general just not that great.  i wouldn't want everything to be like MPrime or Shield Polarize though, we'd be losing some personality in Abilities if they all performed nearly identical at all Levels of Enemies. it could work, but i don't think it's an ideal solution, and instead should be a Plan B or C.

[(PSN)teh1tank]

I have a couple of suggestions on some of the frames, I'd appreciate some feedback.

 

Mag

-Replace Bullet Attractor with a support ability that boosts Mag's and friendly Warframe's shields. Something like 25%/50%/100% increase in shield. Even though some people will argue that Bullet Attractor is useful, I believe that Mag should have a bigger support role instead of pigeonholing her into a role that doesn't really fit her. Using Bullet Attractor against certain bosses isn't that useful and is a waste of her potential in my opinion.

-Crush, pretty cool ability but is lacking in some areas. For those enemies it doesn't kill, they simply stand there like nothing happened and keep shooting at you. Even though you just saw them get bundled up into a ball. I think a damage proc should be included with it, as well as a hobble effect. Again, "the bones of your enemies are magnetized", they shouldn't be able to run around like that.

 

Nekros

-Give him a "Death Aura" ability. When this ability is active, Nekros absorbs health from enemies around him. Thus healing himself, and draining enemy health bypassing shields over time. I'm not sure which ability this should replace, but it seemed too strong to replace Soul Punch even though it's the obvious choice. Unless rearranging his abilities is an option.

-Shadows of the dead needs tweaking, I know it's already affected by power strength which increases the numbers. But I think power strength should also affect the level/stats of the shadows produced.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

 

[taiiat]

Using Bullet Attractor against certain bosses isn't that useful and is a waste of her potential in my opinion.

it's certainly useful for far more than that, it's a huge DPS Multiplier. which makes it an effective Support / Offensive Ability when Enemies become problematic, to make it easier and faster to kill them.