Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[BETAOPTICS]

Hey by the way, Archwizard could you kindly add what parts you edit every time you edit them because sometimes it becomes hard to remember and track what was already proposed and what changes were made. It would make following this topic all the way more easier.

[Archwizard]

Hey by the way, Archwizard could you kindly add what parts you edit every time you edit them because sometimes it becomes hard to remember and track what was already proposed and what changes were made. It would make following this topic all the way more easier.

 

I could add a changelog going forward. Normally edits are minor and for the sake of clarity, with thread title changes to reflect new content.

[Elydir]

To add to the volt idea: a new mechanic in generall. Make the shield follow you around and a second activate set it to the ground. This would offer both, support and a more viable melee support.

 

That would also be awesome, although between the two choices, this one would probably be annoying if youre trying to set up a bubble of shields around a defense objective.

[Archwizard]

Presently pondering Ember's ultimate, World on Fire. (I've done that about fifty times in this thread before, so it should come as no surprised that I'm not satisfied.)

 

In Ember's current state, between her range and Fire Blast's knockback, 3/4 of Ember's skillset encourages her to put some distance between herself and her targets.

Theoretically, putting the augment as it is now on Fire Blast should result in Ember playing similarly to how Frost is in the OP, creating a ring of defense and keeping foes out of it. (Yes, I'm working past the weird state of Fire Blast that causes enemies to avoid it, since I can only presume that's a bug at best and a flaw to be corrected at worst.) One thing I want to add to the OP is having Fire Blast tick twice as often for half the damage - with the stacking effect of the Heat status mentioned in the General section of the OP, this shouldn't cause a terrible difference in her damage and could combine better with the high status chance to stunlock foes.

 

The problem is, World on Fire encourages Ember to close the gap with her targets. Its recent change to a toggle on it also didn't really fix any of the skill's issues, still forcing players to build for all four major stats to use it effectively. The buff to her base stats work better with its execution, but only by so much.

While the "explodes nearby hazards" would be a useful addition to set it apart, I realize that in all practicality it would only bait players into occasionally turning it on and off again - which means the true failing of World on Fire would still persist, just slightly inflated in both cost and benefit.

 

So the question really is, if Frost's changes take off, what can be done about World on Fire that will A) keep it balanced from the dev perspective but not annoying to the players (in contrast to now), B) keep it practical from the players' perspective beyond the same "damage and status" as her other skills, and C) synergize with the rest of Ember's kit while setting it apart from other frames?

[theammostore]

Presently pondering Ember's ultimate, World on Fire. (I've done that about fifty times in this thread before, so it should come as no surprised that I'm not satisfied.)

 

In Ember's current state, between her range and Fire Blast's knockback, 3/4 of Ember's skillset encourages her to put some distance between herself and her targets.

Theoretically, putting the augment as it is now on Fire Blast should result in Ember playing similarly to how Frost is in the OP, creating a ring of defense and keeping foes out of it. (Yes, I'm working past the weird state of Fire Blast that causes enemies to avoid it, since I can only presume that's a bug at best and a flaw to be corrected at worst.) One thing I want to add to the OP is having Fire Blast tick twice as often for half the damage - with the stacking effect of the Heat status mentioned in the General section of the OP, this shouldn't cause a terrible difference in her damage and could combine better with the high status chance to stunlock foes.

 

The problem is, World on Fire encourages Ember to close the gap with her targets. Its recent change to a toggle on it also didn't really fix any of the skill's issues, still forcing players to build for all four major stats to use it effectively. The buff to her base stats work better with its execution, but only by so much.

While the "explodes nearby hazards" would be a useful addition to set it apart, I realize that in all practicality it would only bait players into occasionally turning it on and off again - which means the true failing of World on Fire would still persist, just slightly inflated in both cost and benefit.

 

So the question really is, if Frost's changes take off, what can be done about World on Fire that will A) keep it balanced from the dev perspective but not annoying to the players (in contrast to now), B) keep it practical from the players' perspective beyond the same "damage and status" as her other skills, and C) synergize with the rest of Ember's kit while setting it apart from other frames?

Perhaps more of a channeled ability? or something similar to Hungry Spirit (I think that's the name. On of Nazeebo's ultimate abilities) from Heroes of the Storm? In essence, a cursor based/movement based effect that leaves your character stationary while a damaging aura/entity freely moves about away from your current position. So basically, create a copy of Ember that you then take control of, while the real Ember does her channeling thing wherever you leave her. This new body is invulnerable, does not draw Aggro (should it?) and does damage to all things near it. No range limit on how far it can go from Ember (Cap a range perhaps?), but it does have to be near enemies to do damage. Based on time or until you tell it to shut off, in case you killed everything/are in danger

[zavienh5]

I probably disagree/agree with some but I'll just +1 for your hard work

[Archwizard]

Perhaps more of a channeled ability? or something similar to Hungry Spirit (I think that's the name. On of Nazeebo's ultimate abilities) from Heroes of the Storm? In essence, a cursor based/movement based effect that leaves your character stationary while a damaging aura/entity freely moves about away from your current position. So basically, create a copy of Ember that you then take control of, while the real Ember does her channeling thing wherever you leave her. This new body is invulnerable, does not draw Aggro (should it?) and does damage to all things near it. No range limit on how far it can go from Ember (Cap a range perhaps?), but it does have to be near enemies to do damage. Based on time or until you tell it to shut off, in case you killed everything/are in danger

 

So basically, transfer your control to a guided drone? It could be interesting, especially if it creates some kind of free-flying phoenix familiar* and can use all of her abilities. Would definitely be balanced for a full-time toggle attack - no need for a maximum duration if you're (technically) helpless while active.

 

*[size=2]Try saying that ten times fast...[/size]

 

Of course, I suspect we might want to wait to see the new Warframe's abilities before we go for something so... revamp-y. (My personal hopes are that Chroma can either shapeshift or can summon a pet "dragon" to attack for him, the latter of which would be a similar concept.)

[theammostore]

 

So basically, transfer your control to a guided drone? It could be interesting, especially if it creates some kind of free-flying phoenix familiar* and can use all of her abilities. Would definitely be balanced for a full-time toggle attack - no need for a maximum duration if you're (technically) helpless while active.

 

*Try saying that ten times fast...

 

Of course, I suspect we might want to wait to see the new Warframe's abilities before we go for something so... revamp-y. (My personal hopes are that Chroma can either shapeshift or can summon a pet "dragon" to attack for him, the latter of which would be a similar concept.)

Pretty much, yeah. Guided drone attack. PLus, it works with her current moveset which is to keep things away from her. (fireball for ranger Aoe, Fireblast for knockback, accelerant to stun and run away).

 

And agreed on waiting. But let's keep that idea in mind just in case

[Elydir]

Guess this thread is just waiting for U16 at this point.

 

Of course, I suspect we might want to wait to see the new Warframe's abilities before we go for something so... revamp-y. (My personal hopes are that Chroma can either shapeshift or can summon a pet "dragon" to attack for him, the latter of which would be a similar concept.)

 

I'm just worried that dragonframe will go the same path as Nekros, using a cool theme as a way to shoehorn in a gimmick that doesnt fit. Would be the worst thing to go with his looks, rubbing salt in the wound.

[RealPandemonium]

I don't think we should go into new frame releases with any expectations.  The frame does what the frame does, and its identity is derived from that.  Aesthetics are independent of that.    

[Archwizard]

I don't think we should go into new frame releases with any expectations.  The frame does what the frame does, and its identity is derived from that.  Aesthetics are independent of that.    

 

Admittedly, it's a grey area.

 

It's one thing for them to say the next frame is a very broad theme (ie an elemental), or a niche/completely original one (ie Loki and Limbo). You have to go in with an open mind and zero expectations; those sorts of things give you just enough to pique your interest and curiosity, but really the only people who can tell you whether it's "doing it right" are the devs.

 

It's another to say "Here's our take on a known, widely-used archetype in gaming"; an expectation is inherently attached to words like necromancer, berserker or paladin (that one raises the dead, another recklessly melees and the last protects/smites in equal measure). Inability to match the name with the archetype can come across as false advertising, even if they can hit all the broad points of the definition ("This wild gunner has no concern for their own safety! BERSERKER!" ... No.). There are people who are drawn in by the term alone, simply because of how it's thrown around in other games and media.

Essentially, using the term puts the devs on a leash; they have just enough room to make it unique and fit within the game (to appease the people who think the archetype is a tired cliche), but nobody wants to see them snap off the legs, put them where the eyes should be and sew on appendages from other species (for the people who prefer playing those archetypes).

 

"Dragon", on the other hand, is in-between the two. While dragons exist within almost all cultures, they have to share a number of similarities to be worthy of the name; they're always a serpentine symbol of fear and/or reverence, capable of both great awe and destruction. In fantasy gaming, a dragon-based class is either a shapeshifting spellcaster or a flying knight with summoning powers (and admittedly, shapeshifters are a rather popular request for Warframe just because turning into a dragon would be unspeakably awesome).

In terms of the source material, however, we have a much greater selection. As noted by Scott, Eastern dragons were seen as (primarily) benevolent, bringing rain to fields and good fortune to mortals... until someone ticked one off, in which case they could bring floods, storms and tsunamis. Middle-Eastern dragons were prone to receiving snake or hawk attributes, suddenly striking from out of caves or the night sky and debilitating enemies with poisonous bites or barbs. Western dragons are, of course, known for hoarding jewels, paralyzing armies with fear, and being ridiculously hard to kill.

 

With all that, a dragon "class" (frame) could be have buffing, healing, damage, mobility, stealth, debuffing, crowd control and survivability potential. So long as he's attuned with the elements and has a breath weapon (lo and behold, he does!) Chroma could be almost anything and you could probably get away with it, so long as the point is made that he is the dragon itself and not a dragonrider or kobold-flinging priest (although it may be a hard sell if he ends up being an arbitrary combination of the elements of multiple cultures, and I will be seriously irked if he ends up relegated into being yet another metagamer just because of that "good fortune" and/or "hoarding" thing). 

 

So in this case, I agree with RealPandemonium. We can only hope that he's unique, fun, self-synergistic, non-redundant and broadly useful in endgame without crowding anyone out (neither "get that trash out of here" nor "YOU MUST TAKE IT") as is the minimum with any frame. [size=1]Unlike Oberon on release.[/size]

 

Besides, we'll probably get over the aesthetics.

[taiiat]

oh my god. i think i just had a brilliant idea.

Electric Shield should be able to act as an Exploding Electronic for Overload.

no Augments required, just make it a integral feature.

we still should make Electronic Devices exist in most Tilesets in the first place, but Electric Shield could help cover some 'dark spots' if you need them in a particular place.

i'm really glad i thought of this. yes, i feel proud of myself.

[Archwizard]

Going to start implementing the change log. Not sure whether it might be necessary to break it down by update or every several updates though; don't want it to become a wall of text like each of the entries are.

 

Also, 1 year anniversary of the thread in precisely 18 hours, so... that's a thing.

 

Electric Shield should be able to act as an Exploding Electronic for Overload.
no Augments required, just make it a integral feature.

 

It's an interesting suggestion, one I must admit I've contemplated before. I figured that it would increase the energy cost too much for too little effect - or conversely, end up being absurdly powerful since the shields won't be destroyed - but I suppose we should never turn down synergy between abilities... 

If you want to triple the cost of Overload to double its effectiveness against a limited number of targets in your immediate radius, I almost think it balances itself...

Edited March 20, 2015 by Archwizard

[Archwizard]

Darn, I missed the anniversary of the thread by 2 hours. Slipped my mind.

 

So, concerning Chroma: I'll be waiting to add any updates to the OP for at least a week after I've had a chance to review the frame. I jumped the gun with Mesa, basing my judgments off of secondhand experience rather than my own, and I really want to avoid that with Chroma. I'll be keeping an eye on player feedback concerning Chroma until then.

 

Now, as I have no personal experience with Chroma just yet (I'm in the waiting phases of the quest), I wanted to give an initial impression to compare to my conclusions. Keep in mind, I'm just going to examine the theoretical side of Chroma to create hypotheses.

 

As I stated before,

In fantasy gaming, a dragon-based class is either a shapeshifting spellcaster or a flying knight with summoning powers 

... each of which have proven to be half-accurate in the case of Chroma, particularly with his ultimate. It makes an interesting blend, honoring both while not necessarily being either. While Chroma doesn't physically shapeshift into a flying brick that breathes destruction himself, he does specialize in mode-shifting, and is versatile enough for casting builds; while he doesn't have any flight- or jump-based skills, he does have the "knight" and "summoning" parts down.

 

Examining the powers, I can see synergy between three out of four. The shtick is being able to rapidly transmute his survivability into firepower and back on a whim; depending how the armor reduction works for his ultimate, you could activate Elemental Ward to bump up his health/shields/armor while you're low, then channel that through Vex Armor to further increase his output. I can definitely see him working with a Rage for Fire, Cold and even (through Vex Armor) Electric builds.

What surprises me is that Vex Armor (and yes, I know about the Fan Concept) isn't a technique for Valkyr, nor a glyph for Hysteria (though it's never too late for that...). Historically, berserkers have sacrificed their armor to increase their ferocity and psychological terror tactics.

 

As far as flaws go, I can immediately spot two. First, I'm not entirely certain how Spectral Scream is supposed to interact with his toolkit; it may very well be that the skill is simply self-inclusive fanservice, dealing damage in the manner you would expect of a dragon (which I won't fault them for, as you couldn't dare call him a dragon without such a staple). According to his profile video, Vex Armor only benefits his weapon damage, not his breath attack nor even his ultimate. The speed boost granted by his ultimate counters the speed reduction on Scream, but I would call that more of an incidental supplementation than active synergy. I expect that it's intended more as a crowd control (especially considering three out of four elements), but you can only put so much faith in status-based stunning, given the shifty histories of Fire Blast and Overload.

Second, Toxin builds - Elemental Ward and Spectral Scream likely contribute far less to his survivability with green energy than others. Theoretically the status it provides is more deadly to compensate, but I suspect that it deals a flat amount of damage and will fall off very quickly, as opposed to the more rapid discharges of Ward's Electric buff and the reflection on its Cold buff. It might be decent for melee builds, but again, shifting survivability through Vex Armor will likely contribute more to that.

 

Honestly though, I'm just excited for him - which could just be hype bias, as with Oberon. Firsthand experience and careful examination of his skills will be required.

[Elydir]

Second, Toxin builds - Elemental Ward and Spectral Scream likely contribute far less to his survivability with green energy than others. Theoretically the status it provides is more deadly to compensate, but I suspect that it deals a flat amount of damage and will fall off very quickly, as opposed to the more rapid discharges of Ward's Electric buff and the reflection on its Cold buff. It might be decent for melee builds, but again, shifting survivability through Vex Armor will likely contribute more to that.

 

I'd be kinda worried about Fire Ward as well, since it deals radial damage.

 

I can definitely see him working with a Rage for Fire, Cold and even (through Vex Armor) Electric builds.

 

Two toggled skills. Rage doesn't work while they're active.

[BETAOPTICS]

Thank you so much for considering my request. This log helps a lot for us to keep on track at what is being done and makes it so much more convenient and easier to follow this post. Nice job at up keeping this by the way. It is good to have dedicated players really putting forth effort like this to make the game better.

[Archwizard]

Still 33 hours out on my Chroma, so again, don't take any commentary I make as an official stance on him. Yet.

 

From what I'm hearing around, his biggest flaw at present is just Afterburn being too weak. I'm already inspired as to a replacement for it, but I'll reserve judgement.

 

Second, Toxin builds - Elemental Ward and Spectral Scream likely contribute far less to his survivability with green energy than others. 

 

Based on what I've seen and heard thus far, the stamina buff from Toxin Elemental Ward is actually quite potent for blocking builds, it simply doesn't have obvious synergy with Vex Armor. Just goes to show that they really need to give more build support (on the melee weapon's end) to that kind of playstyle... [size=1]Buff Silva & Aegis stamina consumption...[/size]

 

I'd be kinda worried about Fire Ward as well, since it deals radial damage.

 

Heat Elemental Ward's got a radial stunning status (which I would think makes his first skill redundant, but we'll see).

 

Two toggled skills. Rage doesn't work while they're active.

 

From what I've heard, one of the benefits of his ultimate dropping armor is that he can get more effectiveness from Rage at-will. Of course, my sources could be making presumptions, but more likely someone was feeding you outdated information on toggling (since presently, it's only supposed to shut off Team Energy Restores and Energy Siphon).

[taiiat]

From what I've heard, one of the benefits of his ultimate dropping armor is that he can get more effectiveness from Rage at-will.

we're talking about Rage, the Mod, right?

i don't recall having Armor making it less effective. has always felt like to me having Armor means you can get a bucket of Energy without nearly dying.

and, casting an expensive Ability to lower your Armor that you casted a different Ability to increase - to get more Energy, seems kind've counter-productive to me.

you could save a whole lot of Energy and therefore have lots more available as well, by casting neither one! :p

[Elydir]

and, casting an expensive Ability to lower your Armor that you casted a different Ability to increase - to get more Energy, seems kind've counter-productive to me.

you could save a whole lot of Energy and therefore have lots more available as well, by casting neither one! :p

 

Yeah, who wants a setup that converts one stat to another and back!

 

Oh wait. Thats like the whole point of Despoil.

[taiiat]

Yeah, who wants a setup that converts one stat to another and back!

Oh wait. Thats like the whole point of Despoil.

Despoil doesn't loop on it's own. you have to create that loop.

on it's own, it only switches from Energy to Health.

[SageBanshee]

Kudos to the Op and supporters for keeping this thread alive for an entire year. Think it can make another?

[Archwizard]

Kudos to the Op and supporters for keeping this thread alive for an entire year. Think it can make another?

 

Pray that it doesn't need to.

[Archwizard]

So, I've had Chroma completed for three days (only had time to invest one Forma in him so far, given how much time I've spent grinding Volt Prime and working on other projects). I think it's a fair time to jot down some initial impressions.

 

Keeping in mind, I could just be playing him poorly, so this is all from the perspective of someone still trying to figure him out - not my final verdicts.

 

I'm finding myself really drawn towards the Electric build, as its Ward has the most consistent stunlocking capability and surprisingly high damage (according to the wiki, it actually scales), albeit the shield boost isn't terribly high. My one gripe with it is that it's tied to blue/purple energy, which looks pretty jarring on my charred red palette - and hey, if my issue is purely aesthetic in nature, that's not too shabby.

I tried Heat first, and I've got to say, I'm not terribly impressed with it. You can really feel the low Heat status chance on Ward, and I'm not sure why it's there; the Electric stunlocking proves to be far more reliable, and napkin math on the Toxin Ward says even it will always be more reliable damage. I haven't done a number crunch yet on whether the Heat Ward or Cold Ward provides a bigger boost to his raw health.

Toxin Ward isn't as much as it's hyped up to be; people have been saying it can give infinite blocking capability and I have to say, that must be with an already stamina-efficient melee. Still finding myself rapidly running out of stamina at max rank, though my build doesn't have a ton of Power Strength. On the plus side, Toxin Scream does kill Grineer the fastest in mid-game, so... there's that.

Cold Ward's alright. It's hard to tell that the damage reflection is occurring (as it doesn't give you a neon sign pointing to each target who receives its damage), but the mitigation is noticeable.

 

Life Strike has been a lifesaver. Valkyr's problem early on was that armor-tanking just gave her an ample supply of health - it wasn't a completely disposable resource. Same problem with trying to facetank with Chroma, you can have all the armor and health buffs in the world, it won't help you when you get chiseled down to 2% by bleed procs.

 

Already getting around Spectral Scream's movement limitation by rolling, since you still deal damage within its area of effect even if your head is between your legs and pointed the opposite direction. Now if only it was affected by his damage buff... 

 

Effigy is neat, but far too slow of an attacker. It really just adds to the cost when you cast it and it sits around doing nothing for 3 seconds before hitting Radial Blind. If the AI doesn't receive revisions, the cost should.

 

Finally, he's particularly difficult to build for. Power Efficiency is more important for him than most frames due to his two separate toggled skills, but maximizing it ruins Vex Armor (c'mon now, Primed Streamline!). Trying to build for both just cuts into your ability to build Power Strength (especially since, luck would have it, both of them in particular are #rekt by building for it).

[BETAOPTICS]

- snip -

My thoughts about Chorma are also a bit divided.

Fire seems to be alright element with Spectral Scream CC but the ward itself is pretty bad. I mean sure it heals you for a few hundred HP at a time which is neat but in the heat of a battle in higher level content, that 200 HP will be irrelevant because we are talking about being able to tank few more shots at best. The damage of the ward is also so low that it might as well not even exist, I have not noticed any significant benefit to have it around and the status chance is so low that the additional CC it can provide is almost non-existent. Needs tweaking.

 

Electricity is neat like you say in the Spectral Scream and ward department as both provide consistent Stunning effect. The ward also does a lot of damage but I think the shield boost could be a bit higher as it is so low it might not even exist either. Then again I would love more variation to the wards and so I am somewhat indifferent as to should the make any changes to it at all, be it that Electric ward does high damage already with only a small shield benefit.

 

Toxic element is pretty useless in my opinion. It offers no CC at all other than from the ultimate which really is bad at the moment for end-game content. Sure, the atamina boost you get is alright but nothing game changing and least useless out of them all in almost any case, even with high stamina melee weapons. Then the ward. While I appreciate the whole Toxic element bringing more DPS to the build than any other element, the additional damage falls short due to the same reasons DE was discussing in Developer livestream #49 last night, which is damage scaling and usefulness in end game content. The Toxic ward offers a lot more damage than the heat does and it has a higher status chance but any stamina benefit in the game is pretty useless as far as I am concerned.

The Ice element. Now the ice element is actually pretty nice in my opinion. It is not currently in my selection but it is very neat overall. While it provides lowest overall DPS, the amount of which it falls behind in DPS is minimal wheres the benefits are huge. CC, armor increase for Vex Armor, damage return and slow procs occasionally to the enemies. The only bad thing about it is that it does not necessarily help friendlies in form of armor all that much if their Warframes have low armor. Still the added CC is useful to anyone at any content level. Definitely the best element in my opinion, despite the fact that I do not use it myself.

 

I do not think Chroma is particularly bad Warframe, but I do not consider him the greatest out there either. There are issues like Spectral Scream that are sometimes pointless because it is basically a high damage, but slow moving Ignis that your Warframe has. The buffs and the nature of them, their benefits; especially in elemental ward and some elements could use some more insight from the developers as far as I am concerned. Now of course we have only had the Update for a week now so it is early to say anything but so far this is my experiences about him that I am sharing.

EDIT: Also I was disappointed that it only had basic elements. I wanted to make a Corrosive or Gas based Warframe finally. The pain!

Edited March 28, 2015 by BETAOPTICS

[taiiat]

I haven't done a number crunch yet on whether the Heat Ward or Cold Ward provides a bigger boost to his raw health.

Finally, he's particularly difficult to build for. Power Efficiency is more important for him than most frames due to his two separate toggled skills, but maximizing it ruins Vex Armor (c'mon now, Primed Streamline!). Trying to build for both just cuts into your ability to build Power Strength (especially since, luck would have it, both of them in particular are #rekt by building for it).

- Ice will 'synergize' with Vex Armor. Armor with some more Armor and a side of Armor, and a sprinkle of Damage Reduction.

significantly more useful than the Health Bonus IMO. remember, Effigy halves your Armor.

Electricity and Ice seem to be the most useful.

i cri every tiem that Toxin is... basically useless unless you're doing a 'blocking build'. as Saryn may suggest, Toxins and other Poisons are kind've my thing.

(Fire is a bit underwhelming as well, but it's more useful)

- 60% Efficiency(-30% Duration), Transient Fortitude, Intensify?

paired with Stretch, 8/10 Narrow Minded(6/10 if you don't want to lose Range) and/or Continuity/Prime?

paired with Vitality, and perhaps... Rage, or Redirection, or Equilibrium, or... idunno.

if you want to use Blind Rage, sacrifice a Utility Mod to stack as much Duration as possible to counter Fleeting Expertise.

Edited March 28, 2015 by taiiat