Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[goozilla]

You forgot the "per rank" and "multiply allies' health" bits.

 

>not affected by duration

 

Still useless. The entire reason why we bring Trinity is so we don't have to worry as much about doing enough CC.

[Onihikage]

I see you've added Trinity. I posted my own thread not long ago on balancing her, so I'm wondering what you think. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/208551-how-to-nerf-balance-trinity-without-making-her-useless/

 

A lot of our ideas are very similar, so we at least seem to be on the same page regarding Trinity.

[theammostore]

>not affected by duration

 

Still useless. The entire reason why we bring Trinity is so we don't have to worry as much about doing enough CC.

SO what you are saying is....you want no challenge and godmode and full invulnerability in this game? Seriously, Blessing invalidates EVERYTHING in this game. All damage is negated and you get full health and shields for when it wears off. About to die? Nope! Not for 20s where I can still shoot and blast away at all my enemies with my crit-soma and laugh as an area that was 40 levels above me dies to my awesome 4 pressing skills.

[goozilla]

SO what you are saying is....you want no challenge and godmode and full invulnerability in this game? Seriously, Blessing invalidates EVERYTHING in this game. All damage is negated and you get full health and shields for when it wears off. About to die? Nope! Not for 20s where I can still shoot and blast away at all my enemies with my crit-soma and laugh as an area that was 40 levels above me dies to my awesome 4 pressing skills.

 

$&*&*#(%& damage scaling invalidates this game.

[theammostore]

$&*&*#(%& damage scaling invalidates this game.

The damage up in wave 35+ is meant to be insanely high as that's past the balance point of the game. You aren't meant to be up that high, you are putting in the endurance to be that far into the wave, you deserve all 300+ damage grakata shots that you get in there. That's outside of what this game was designed for. It's for those masochistic players who want to see how far they can go in an absolute hostile environment.

[ThePresident777]

Call it invalidation, or trivial, or whatever you want.  It does not matter.  The only thing that matters is that people enjoy it.  And, there are people who enjoy invalidated, trivial, or whatever games, and they deserve to enjoy those games as much as other people enjoy other types of games.  Nobody is so special that their opinion should deprive others of entertainment.  People who enjoy invalidated, trivial, or whatever games are not some under class to be kicked around and deprived on the whims of others.  Some people need to learn some respect.  And, if it's good enough as a forum rule, then, maybe it's good enough as a software development and business rule too.

[LukeAura]

Call it invalidation, or trivial, or whatever you want.  It does not matter.  The only thing that matters is that people enjoy it.  And, there are people who enjoy invalidated, trivial, or whatever games, and they deserve to enjoy those games as much as other people enjoy other types of games.  Nobody is so special that their opinion should deprive others of entertainment.  People who enjoy invalidated, trivial, or whatever games are not some under class to be kicked around and deprived on the whims of others.  Some people need to learn some respect.  And, if it's good enough as a forum rule, then, maybe it's good enough as a software development and business rule too.

In some forms of games yes, trivial content can and does work well. That's pretty much the basis of goat simulator actually, as well as the easy mode of pretty much every Dynasty Warriors game(500 kill non stop slaughtering spree to the chorus of men screaming in pain was some good times.... I'm not a psycho.).

Unfortunately, for you any ways, MMOs tend to need complexity and depth, and their own unique niche, they need to suck people in to a system so they stay longer and spend more and come back to it because they can't find the exact same experience any where else.

Trivialized content is initially fun for a lot of people, but it simply doesn't provide the same lasting draw or is capable of holding the same group until something that makes it even more entertaining to trivialize content comes along.

[ThePresident777]

Games need to appeal to a broad audience to be more profitable.  It is not impossible to accommodate mutually exclusive opinions in a game.  It cannot be done through compromise.  It has to be done through separation, through sandboxes.  Warframe's mission mechanic is perfectly suitable for this task in coop PvE.  it's already paid for.  It's under utilized. 

 

This works as well for MMO's as it does for any other game type and it works flawlessly.  In fact, Warframe is already doing this with PvP.  But, DE has decided to not spend as much time on PvP.  So, the state of PvP is not an argument against sandboxes.  It's an argument for sandboxes.  What some feedback on the forums amounts to is PvE in the style of PvP., Tenno vs. Elite Enemy Squad or Boss battles for instance.  So, not developing PvP in Warframe is a lost opportunity to develop better Boss battles and Tenno vs. Elite Enemy Squad.   This loss in opportunity is brought about by a failure to take a broad and inclusive view of the customer base.

Edited April 10, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Archwizard]

Call it invalidation, or trivial, or whatever you want.  It does not matter.  The only thing that matters is that people enjoy it.  And, there are people who enjoy invalidated, trivial, or whatever games, and they deserve to enjoy those games as much as other people enjoy other types of games.  Nobody is so special that their opinion should deprive others of entertainment.

 

The argument works in reverse too, though. There are players who are willing to use the system to put themselves up with players who have legitimately earned higher rewards - which then deprives the skilled players of their acknowledgement since anyone can do it. There are losers either way.

 

God mode skills like Blessing and the old Snow Globe require very little skill; that's why Snow Globe was nerfed. It's not a question of if Blessing will follow, but when. This is just one suggestion of a way to do it while making it useful and interesting.

[ThePresident777]

Skilled and Not-skilled are mutually exclusive.  Therefore, they both require their own separate sandboxes.  Competitive and not-competitive are mutually exclusive.  Therefore, they both require their own separate sandboxes.  And the players who chose Warframe for it's "unskilled" game play deserve to have their choice respected.  It's good business practice.  Warframe was never advertised as a skillful game.  To demonstrate the game and invite people to play it, even spend money on it, while it pervasively displays "unskilled"  mechanism, then to get rid of these mechanisms which people were attracted to and still enjoy, is a terrible way to treat customers.  It's something along the line of what EA or Piranha Games would do.  That's not a lofty goal to aspire to.  Attempting to surpass them would be a much loftier goal than repeating their terrible behavior.

[Archwizard]

Skilled and Not-skilled are mutually exclusive.  Therefore, they both require their own separate sandboxes.  Competitive and not-competitive are mutually exclusive.  Therefore, they both require their own separate sandboxes.  And the players who chose Warframe for it's "unskilled" game play deserve to have their choice respected.

 

Yes, and what I'm saying is they're not separate - every permutation of challenging/easy level and skilled/unskilled player is possible.

It's one thing to go to a low-to-middling level as an unskilled player and feel powerful, or go to a high level as a skilled player and actually be (the closest we have to "separate sandboxes"). It's quite another to go to Outer Terminus at rank 2 and spam God Mode (the exact kind of overlap I'm saying needs to be avoided).

[ThePresident777]

The topic of the thread is Retuning Abilities.  Retuning abilities does not create the sandboxes need to accommodate mutually exclusive opinions, choices, play styles, call them what you will.  Retuning is relative to each particular sandbox.  Each sandbox requires it's own particular tuning, calibration, call it what you will.  Since the thread does not recognize this. the thread is attempting to retune the default game.  It's bound to fail because the default game cannot accommodate mutually exclusive opinions because it does not have the sandboxes to do so.

 

Incidentally, this thread had a different title?  Something about buffing all the warframes up to Nova level?  Or am I thinking of another thread?

[LukeAura]

Incidentally, this thread had a different title?  Something about buffing all the warframes up to Nova level?  Or am I thinking of another thread?

I think the truth of who is right in this will be shown by how well the more competitive side of badlands through the solar rails will turn out. 'different sandboxes' and all that.

That's a notionphil thread on buffing Frames through making their powers more flexible instead of necessarily making them stronger or changing their functionality or adding new components. It involves buffing frames to Nova tier in the title.

 

[Archwizard]

Incidentally, this thread had a different title?  Something about buffing all the warframes up to Nova level?  Or am I thinking of another thread?

 

You're thinking of another thread. The only thing I've changed about the title since its creation is adding the (4/9) note.

[ThePresident777]

I'm not sure what is meant by "this" in this instance.  Is it one of:

1)  Each sandbox requires it's own particular tuning, calibration, call it what you will

2)  Since the thread does not recognize this. the thread is attempting to retune the default game.

3)  It's bound to fail because the default game cannot accommodate mutually exclusive opinions because it does not have the sandboxes to do so.

?

 

Thx, for the clarification on the topic title issue.

[Elydir]

Not sure that just making Contagion a team buff will help Saryn much. It costs triple Speed's for a buff thats way less useful, especially now that Speed lets you crank out combos faster. I wouldnt ask someone to bring a Saryn just because she can make my weps do some poison damage.

[MushrooMars]

Not sure that just making Contagion a team buff will help Saryn much. It costs triple Speed's for a buff thats way less useful, especially now that Speed lets you crank out combos faster. I wouldnt ask someone to bring a Saryn just because she can make my weps do some poison damage.

 

Pretty much this. Now, if Contagion made all of the team's melee have Toxic AoE, it would be a different story...

[Archwizard]

Not sure that just making Contagion a team buff will help Saryn much. It costs triple Speed's for a buff thats way less useful, especially now that Speed lets you crank out combos faster. I wouldnt ask someone to bring a Saryn just because she can make my weps do some poison damage.

Pretty much this. Now, if Contagion made all of the team's melee have Toxic AoE, it would be a different story...

 

Well the beauty of the new system is, we could always have Contagion give a boost to channeling (efficiency perhaps?), or something similar.

 

Plus I'm pretty sure that each stance has a combo that does radial damage anyway?

Edited April 13, 2014 by Archwizard

[Jadefox]

even at max level (30) and with a cell installed the Excalibur is no match for the saryn and frost, I propose that the saryn should be on par with the rihno's health rather than the strongest frame in the game. If this is accomplished pople will be able to have a chance in concave and in the dojo.

 

also recently the Excalibur's dash is no longer as effective as it was in the past making it no longer a threat to mid level enemies.

ps: the radial blind does not work in concave or the dojo making it useless in pvp

Edited April 14, 2014 by Jadefox

[MoyuTheTrinity]

I respect your Trinity retune

[Drathin]

So Valkyr would have no way to get her health back? And would be useless after her ult? Wow great idea -.-. I don't understand why all these people are like an archetype MUST follow the status quo!!! Warframe is its own animal quit trying to make it like every other game. That adding melee stats to her ultimate was a dumb idea. Forcing people if they want the best from her you MUST get certain weapons like the dual ichors. Look why not remove the invincible ulti to give her even higher armor, life steal and to move faster. Warcry could be changed to something else as well as paralysis not making you stealth kill; as that takes to much time for one target in the middle of a huge battle; just stun them all.

[Izarh]

Love these ideas, all but one though, I don't think we should remove the timer on snow globe, since it blocks all income bullets, imagine some idiot spamming it all over the map and the globe DOESN'T disappear, it'll just become another troll skill then. Other than that, the others are pretty good, would be amazing if DE actually do something from the list :)

[Archwizard]

So Valkyr would have no way to get her health back?

- Warcry no longer increases armor; instead, allies are buffed to heal themselves based on a percentage of melee damage dealt, affected by Valkyr’s Power Strength.

 

- Hysteria no longer heals on hit, hovers or grants conditional damage immunity. Instead, Valkyr is immune to status effects and cannot be reduced below 1 health by any means while Hysteria is active, and her attack damage dealt increases based on health damage received. In addition, the reach of her claw attacks is increased by 50%, and she is granted low, passive health regeneration while in combat (a la Rejuvenation), unaffected by Power Strength.

 

Going with "um."

[Trenggiling]

Good job.

[LukeAura]

Looking over the Ember change and you say-ranged caster-is her archetype. 
But she still sounds very caster-centered, limiting her 'range' potential.