Retune *all* The Frames! (11/19: Wildfire)

[Elydir]

However, he is not "absurd and irreplaceable" for survival missions. Is he desired for these missions? Yes. But you can easily go 30-40 minutes in a T3 survival (which DE has stated as their goal for achievable survival times) without him. If Desecrate is so absurd, try soloing T3S with him and see how far you get.

 

I've been in a few Survivals with really low O2 drop rates, including a few we wouldn't make it past 5 min without a Nekros. Sometimes you just get really screwed by RNG, or really helped by RNG like your saying. Desecrate helps with that, but it's also sort of a bandaid for that issue more than anything.

 

OPs also not saying that Desecrate is OP, just that its the Snow Globe 1.0 of Survivals. You can work without it, but someone in every team is gonna ask for Nekros, and I for one havent seen him outside of one since he was released.

 

Edit: Every *survival* team, that is.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Annon5150

[sneakatone]

i think nekros is a support frame and you cant remove desecrate and change it to an attack poison frame.

[Tau23]

All changes either satisfy some players, who hope to get a superman frame (loki speed on rhyno is superman frame), or tend to do little in what appears to be the pvp balance of the game. Still i have my own suggestions regarding a more balanced pvp:

 

Rhyno: -  iron skin: adding time to this skill (8 to 12 seconds per cast) and lowering the energy cost by 15%. No only because it turns nightmare mod into a silly event, where everyone plays rhyno and spams iron skin, making every newbye feel unbeatable in a event that should, i repeat, should promote teamplay (note that with rhyno you can solo nightmare modes). It also brings rebalance to pvp, no explanations needed.

 

Trinity: - Blessing: As a support role, this skill should support allies, not making herself an unbeatable warframe that goes immune and kills everything in sight. So giving everybody imunity while she gets 10% moving speed AND 10% more dmg taken, should give a better definition to what support is. If Trinity dies all allies afected by blessing lose the buff. This should make teamplay better and competitive in both pvp and pve.

 

Nova - Molecular prime: -20% dmg +5% debuff effect (movement speed + attack speed) to the affected targets. should bring more balance and give a better meaning to this skill, and that is more supportive in teamplay and less destructive. for those who don't understand: use your weapons kids not a 1 button bomb.

 

Ofcourse these changes may be drastic, still they strongly rebalance the game. (its a nerf for those who deserve it)

 

unfortunately these are the only frames been playing so far.

[theammostore]

I really have to disagree with pretty much everything you said here.

 

Don't hate the frame, hate the players. If Nekros is seen as only being useful for farming/survivals, that is due to the narrow minded view that most players have of frames, which is a HUGE problem with this community. I personally use 4 different builds for Nekros and they all work well for their respective situations. Yes, if I am farming something I do bring a max, Desecrate-only build because that is what I need for that situation. With a max Desecrate build, you cannot equip one of his other skills and have it be useful; that is what makes him balanced. If he were able to have a max Desecrate build that also included max Terrify/SotD, people would be crying "OP" all over the place. But he can't and that is why no one ever says that Nekros is OP.

 

However, he is not "absurd and irreplaceable" for survival missions. Is he desired for these missions? Yes. But you can easily go 30-40 minutes in a T3 survival (which DE has stated as their goal for achievable survival times) without him. If Desecrate is so absurd, try soloing T3S with him and see how far you get.

 

Your changes for Terrify are kind of the exact opposite of what you're trying to achieve. If you're interested in thematic consistency, why would Terrify have a slowing effect? Terrify is fine as it is; keep the armor debuff, it is a ridiculously good skill if you build for it (Corrosive Projection anyone?) yet it is still balanced because of the actual terrifying effect i.e. enemies running away. Terrify is an example of how skills should be, imo: very good, yet balanced and in need of team support to reach its true potential.

 

And hate to break it to you, but you've been wasting mod space if you think Desecrate relies on Equilibrium.

 

TL;DR - leave Nekros alone.

You really misunderstood Archwizard

 

i think nekros is a support frame and you cant remove desecrate and change it to an attack poison frame.

He is support currently, but who says a minion master can't be support as well? He'd not be doing insane damage, or is even built around killing quickly. He'd be about bringing  more firepower to the table for every enemy killed, while healing his team for all enemies who are alive currently if they get overwhelmed.

[DealWithDying]

You really misunderstood Archwizard.

Maybe, but I don't think I did. Care to elaborate?

[theammostore]

I've been in a few Survivals with really low O2 drop rates, including a few we wouldn't make it past 5 min without a Nekros. Sometimes you just get really screwed by RNG, or really helped by RNG like your saying. Desecrate helps with that, but it's also sort of a bandaid for that issue more than anything.

 

OPs also not saying that Desecrate is OP, just that its the Snow Globe 1.0 of Survivals. You can work without it, but someone in every team is gonna ask for Nekros, and I for one havent seen him outside of one since he was released.

 

Edit: Every *survival* team, that is.

 

Maybe, but I don't think I did. Care to elaborate?

Read the quote above yours.

[DealWithDying]

Read the quote above yours.

 

Ahh.

 

No, I get that but perhaps didn't do a good enough job of articulating my point.

 

Nekros is the first of the most recent frames on the list of disappointing releases, especially to players who were expecting him to live up to his name. “But Arch,” I can already hear you say, “There’s nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned support class! Desecrate’s great for Survivals, and his other skills make him great at CC!” Well, that’s exactly what’s wrong with him: He’s got three gimmicky, sub-par CC skills trying together to do the job of a single decent one, but nobody seems to mind because all he really means to them is extra O2 packs and triple their high score; the other three skills are treated like high-cost fringe benefits, rather than the thematic parts of his skillset worth focusing on. He’s got THE single-most RNG-infested ability in the game (which relies on Equilibrium gimmickry to boot), which his users can’t help but cast over and over to the complete exclusion of his other skills – and to top it off, it doesn’t even belong in the hands of a necromancer (even Nekros himself, really – those three CCs scatter corpses). It’s not that Nekros has Desecrate, it’s that he IS Desecrate with a hood and skeletal body, and that’s plain wrong; Desecrate itself isn’t, but Nekros with it is. Without the O2 generation, outcry would have forced him to improve months ago.

The recent changes to Frost prove one thing: DE may not necessarily enjoy the prospect of one frame being absurd and irreplaceable for one mission. The change to Snow Globe encouraged players to find new, more skillful ways to run Defenses – and I think it’s past time to give the same treatment to Survivals (or just double O2 spawn rates, baseline).

 

Yes, perhaps it is a band-aid for RNG. However, RNG is not going away any time soon so having something to mitigate it slightly is incredibly useful.

 

When I said "don't hate the frame, hate the player" I was directly responding to the assertion that "he IS Desecrate". He isn't. That's just the only way people use him. Just like Blessing is the only way people use Trinity. DE did not program these frames with just one ability, that is simply how people choose to use them because before they even have a frame built, they have a preconceived notion of how they should be played. OP also seems to imply ("can't help but to cast over and over to the complete exclusion of his other skills") that Nekros's other skills are so poor and Desecrate so great that a max Desecrate build that includes "Equilibrium gimmickry" is the only viable option for Nekros.

 

I addressed how Desecrate is not "absurd and irreplaceable" which seems to be OP's main issue. It isn't either of those things. In response to what Annon5150 said I do agree but having Nekros on your team does not preclude the possibility of failure within the first 5 minutes. It still happens with Nekros and not for lack of trying or incorrect strategy. It happens because of RNG. I have played many survivals recently without Nekros and my experience is that if I am not playing him, there won't be one on the team.

 

If Desecrate were actually absurd and ridiculous I could see some changes being in order but it isn't and certain frames should be better suited than others to specific mission types. You never see someone say "hosting T3D, NEED NEKROS". With the arrival of more varied endgame content it will (hopefully) even out but since T3S is currently seen as the ultimate endgame, Desecrate may seem disproportionately useful and necessary.

[Archwizard]

 

You got your Offensive warframes, Support warframes and defensive warframes.

Some of your changes makes certain warframes supportive for no reason. Like Ash, you remove teleportation for a redudant debuff, teleportation is really usefull with Melee 2.0 though I wish it would cost a little less. Though I completely agree with Nekros, he is now a farmer not a Necromancer.

 

I'm not trying to say that every frame needs to be support, I'm saying that damage frames don't bring enough to the table by just dealing flat amounts of damage; Ash is considered one of the lowest utility frames in the game because all he has is the stun on Smoke Bomb. I removed an ability that was redundant (since Bladestorm gains the Teleport functionality that I only ever see complaints about in terms of cost effectiveness), and gave him a utility the whole party could use.

 

Actually, Contagion's base cost is 50, not 75, so it's *only* twice as expensive as Speed.

 

Wouldn't making it a group buff have a similar problem with giving it free channeling? I mean sure, quick melee is easier to use on the fly, but it still requires said person to use melee in the first place, something that certainly will not happen if the player doesn't have a melee weapon on them to begin with, and the odds don't improve much more until you have someone that's already fighting with an equipped melee weapon.

 

To make Contagion being a group buff truly worthwhile you'd have to make it apply to all weapons, and I'm not sure people would appreciate the possibility of all their weapons' element(s) changing on them at someone else's whim. IMO it would be better to come up with improvements to Contagion that affect just Saryn herself, instead of trying to improve it by having it apply to everyone, unless you're going to scrap it altogether.

 

That's... actually a fair point. How about poison damage on all weapons, and energy return on melee? It'd be like a cross between Speed and Energy Vampire (only... not in the slightest).

 

I really have to disagree with pretty much everything you said here.

 

Don't hate the frame, hate the players. If Nekros is seen as only being useful for farming/survivals, that is due to the narrow minded view that most players have of frames, which is a HUGE problem with this community. I personally use 4 different builds for Nekros and they all work well for their respective situations. Yes, if I am farming something I do bring a max, Desecrate-only build because that is what I need for that situation. With a max Desecrate build, you cannot equip one of his other skills and have it be useful; that is what makes him balanced. If he were able to have a max Desecrate build that also included max Terrify/SotD, people would be crying "OP" all over the place. But he can't and that is why no one ever says that Nekros is OP.

 

However, he is not "absurd and irreplaceable" for survival missions. Is he desired for these missions? Yes. But you can easily go 30-40 minutes in a T3 survival (which DE has stated as their goal for achievable survival times) without him. If Desecrate is so absurd, try soloing T3S with him and see how far you get.

 

Your changes for Terrify are kind of the exact opposite of what you're trying to achieve. If you're interested in thematic consistency, why would Terrify have a slowing effect? Terrify is fine as it is; keep the armor debuff, it is a ridiculously good skill if you build for it (Corrosive Projection anyone?) yet it is still balanced because of the actual terrifying effect i.e. enemies running away. Terrify is an example of how skills should be, imo: very good, yet balanced and in need of team support to reach its true potential.

 

And hate to break it to you, but you've been wasting mod space if you think Desecrate relies on Equilibrium.

 

TL;DR - leave Nekros alone.

 

Terrify:

If you have to assume Corrosive Projection for Terrify to work, then you would be allowed to assume any number of squadmates have Corrosive Projection, allowing up to 120% armor reduction on auras alone (which not only is more than enough, but gets to the point where armor reduction actually contributes to their mitigation). Not to mention that Corrosive status, on its own, puts a permanent 25% reduction on the target, which stacks.

I already did the math on Terrify's reduction alone: with maximized Power Strength, it's just over a 15% damage boost, which cannot be stacked by one Nekros because it cannot be recast. Compare to the several abilities that, on their own, provide (at minimum) 5 times that damage boost with the same mods in one cast, against less niche of an audience (ie everyone vs just non-bosses with armor). Hek, the lowest of these boosts (Roar) does more on its own even without those mods - for cheaper as a result!

It's not a great utility, it's just an excuse to have the stacking debuff originally advertised on Soul Punch in one consolidated debuff, as well as a poor justification for double-dipping into casting restrictions.

 

The slowing effect is requested because enemies have a tendency to bolt straight for the doors, which is counterproductive to making them vulnerable. It's an attempt to preserve the thematic portion of the CC (the running away) without being forced to replace it entirely; the additional casting restrictions are, from what I can tell, in place as an anti-trolling feature, which could have been equally doable if they added a positive (the requested slow, to keep them visible longer) rather than accentuating a negative (giving it both casting restrictions from Chaos and Bastille, and none of the benefits). The more thematic way to do this would've been to blatantly copy-paste Bastille (by having enemies cower in fear rather than hover), ie everyone's complaint about the original Terror Totem.

 

Desecrate:

The long and short of it is, the only time someone wants a Nekros is if he's on Desecrate duty. The only way I've found to make Desecrate duty remotely enjoyable is through very specific builds geared toward Desecrate, which - as you yourself say - exclude his other skills.

 

If Desecrate provided a radial healing effect from corpses every cast, instead of a chance of dropping health orbs - which would solve the RNG issue (making the loot a side benefit) and blend well with the rest of my proposal (taking the place of Drain Life by affecting minions) - I would still advocate for its removal, simply because that wouldn't deter players from spending the entire mission spamming the loot button (in fact, combining a guaranteed effect with the recastable effect would just make them hit it more; plus, absolute slaughter over making Equilibrium useless).

Yes, you can blame the players for spammy behavior, but Murphy's Law (the real one) says the devs should've expected it upon creating that option (which given his low energy pool as a support caster, they did), which makes it a design flaw. The same argument could be brought up of Nova players' behavior concerning Molecular Prime, which you may note, also gets a bat in the OP - and people don't usually cast it twice in a row, because it did its job the first time. If Desecrate had a guaranteed full effect every cast, people would free themselves from the cast animation (which yes, would make me happy, and many others I'm sure) - but then it WOULD be OP (for its cost).

 

No player should be forced to sacrifice gameplay to counteract RNG (ie the entire point of Nekros duty). The devs need to rip off the bandaids and give it full stitches - but since everyone loves their mod farming tool so much, I'm also advocating they leave that aspect in, just elsewhere.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Archwizard

[Varzy]

Just had a Nova-related thought. Keep Molecular Prime's effects as-is, but change the area of effect from a 25m, 360' circle around her to a 30m, 120' cone in front of her.

 

It remains a very powerful ability but needs strategic placement to affect the whole room with its CC.

[Foefaller]

 

That's... actually a fair point. How about poison damage on all weapons, and energy return on melee? It'd be like a cross between Speed and Energy Vampire (only... not in the slightest).

 

 

I could see that, but as I said before, I don't think people would like all their weapons suddenly changing elements without any choice as to when or how, even if they are doing more damage because of it. Granted, I'm not entirely aware of all the possibilities with Contagion's ability to give a weapon innate toxic damage, but I do know it can change the elemental combos of a weapon, and someone, somewhere would get severely ticked if a Saryn using Contagion "ruined" their weapon's elemental combos, even if it was for less than a minute (51.4 seconds, according to the wiki, is as far as you can get with min/maxing its current duration.)

Edited April 29, 2014 by Foefaller

[Oleker]

Don't F*$%#ng touch my Loki... Ò/_\Ó

[Elydir]

Don't F*$%#ng touch my Loki... Ò/_\Ó

 

Loki got a minor buff in the OP dude. Calm down.

[Oleker]

Loki got a minor buff in the OP dude. Calm down.

Actually the only thing i would change on Loki is the animation from switch teleport. Make it less fancy to be easier to re-locate your self after using it. Could add some more options like barrels to be switched too. 

[Nalo1993]

First off let me say, DE if you read this post hire this guy to do your balancing!

 

Second I agree with pretty much all of the rebalances you have done, while there are tidbits that I don't 100% agree on they are not worth mentioning. However, Ash's Blade Storm is the main one I would like to give my two cents about.

 

Ash

The second is that his ultimate actually suffers in allied play: if your allies kill the marks you’re teleporting toward before you get to them, you’re out 100 energy for only two kills. (Could not agree more with this)

 

Archetype: Ninja – but since we’re technically all ninjas, he would more accurately be an Assassin. He even has wristblades.

 

- Bladestorm changed from a cinematic into a melee state, a la Hysteria: Ash cannot use his rifle or sidearm, but is automatically teleported behind his target enemy upon initiating a channeled melee attack if he's out of reach (if the player has no target, he will instantly teleport behind the nearest enemy; the channeling costs the player 0 additional energy to initiate, but grants no damage benefit). Each melee attack deals Finisher damage equal to Bladestorm's usual damaging effects. Only grants Ash immunity frames for a brief moment after a teleport. Can still be used to teleport behind a targeted ally.

I must say I enjoy the idea of using Blade Storm more like Hysteria (minus the floating crap), but I think since it is an ulti that it should have a bit more outstanding effect rather than temporary immunity. Rather than having the immunity why not give him a dodge proc (similar to turbulance), it would fit giving he is an assassin moving "fast" so bullets would not constantly hit him. Also have it if smoke bomb is used Ash can preform finishers/stealth kills with the wrist blades. 

 

P.S. If this was mentioned in a previous post I missed it.

[Archwizard]

I could see that, but as I said before, I don't think people would like all their weapons suddenly changing elements without any choice as to when or how, even if they are doing more damage because of it. Granted, I'm not entirely aware of all the possibilities with Contagion's ability to give a weapon innate toxic damage, but I do know it can change the elemental combos of a weapon, and someone, somewhere would get severely ticked if a Saryn using Contagion "ruined" their weapon's elemental combos, even if it was for less than a minute (51.4 seconds, according to the wiki, is as far as you can get with min/maxing its current duration.)

 

Simple solution there is change Contagion to not attach itself to elements already on the weapon (except for Toxic). Don't add to Corrosive/Gas/Viral, don't take away from pure Electric/Heat/Cold.

 

First off let me say, DE if you read this post hire this guy to do your balancing!

 

Second I agree with pretty much all of the rebalances you have done, while there are tidbits that I don't 100% agree on they are not worth mentioning. However, Ash's Blade Storm is the main one I would like to give my two cents about.

I must say I enjoy the idea of using Blade Storm more like Hysteria (minus the floating crap), but I think since it is an ulti that it should have a bit more outstanding effect rather than temporary immunity. Rather than having the immunity why not give him a dodge proc (similar to turbulance), it would fit giving he is an assassin moving "fast" so bullets would not constantly hit him. Also have it if smoke bomb is used Ash can preform finishers/stealth kills with the wrist blades. 

 

Eh, I don't think I could do the balancing for them, these are all just suggestions (critical and drastic ones, but suggestions). On the other hand, I among others would appreciate more openness and communication towards frame balance and abilities, rather than Scott keeping them close to his chest until he declares "I'm going to do something, maybe" during a livestream.

Like the thread he opened up with Frost (in the case of existing frames), only more frequent, responsive and clear; like the thread they opened up for Nekros (for upcoming frames), only actually faithful to feedback.

 

As for immunity frames, I just mean that split second of animation time after you've cast some abilities (ie Miasma... okay, JUST Miasma now, they nerfed the rest) where you can't receive damage.

[Elydir]

I must say I enjoy the idea of using Blade Storm more like Hysteria (minus the floating crap), 

 

They actually said in the last livestream they're removing the floaty punch when she gets her Hysteria revamp.

[Nalo1993]

As for immunity frames, I just mean that split second of animation time after you've cast some abilities (ie Miasma... okay, JUST Miasma now, they nerfed the rest) where you can't receive damage.

Okay now I get what you mean.

 

 

EDIT: @ Annon5150 - Yeah I just watched that devstream, all I can say is thank god.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Nalo1993

[Elydir]

What if you made Shield Polarize detonate on allied shields too? Would work awesomely with the new Blessing...

[LukeAura]

What if you made Shield Polarize detonate on allied shields too? Would work awesomely with the new Blessing...

I've actually thought about this idea before. 

'detonate' might be a little much, but at least cause a knockdown/stagger around healed allies to give it extra utility against grineer and infested.

 

[Elydir]

I've actually thought about this idea before. 

'detonate' might be a little much, but at least cause a knockdown/stagger around healed allies to give it extra utility against grineer and infested.

 

It seems at that point you may as well just full-blast it.

Why stop at the same stagger every attack has? Why detonate allies without dealing damage?

[Archwizard]

I'm not sure about doing more to Shield Polarize, honestly.

 

For starters, I like to think of it less as "anti-Corpus bomb" and more of a team spot-heal with anti-Corpus benefits. (Sidenote: Can't wait for the day the Corpus invade Ceres and start taking over Hijacks...)

That, and I don't think we should mind that it's less effective against some factions as long as it always has a baseline effectiveness in a given mission that it can exceed - like how Bastille and Undertow are better suited for Infested maps but usable outside of them - which it does.

 

Now Radial Disarm, on the other hand...

[Recovery8]

Supported most of what you said about the frames, even more so for Saryn and Banshee. 

[Noble_Cactus]

Today's update highlighted why Silence is so useless:

 

1. It doesn't even seem to work half the time

 

2. Why bother when Rhino Stomp is silent?

 

I feel that different abilities should have different levels of awareness. As in: Stomp would generate a lot of threat, Sonic Boom would generate small to moderate amounts of threat, and Sonar/Silence (...)/Blessing/etc. would generate none. Still, it only matters on the Warden segment.

 

-

 

Oh, right, and something else with today's patch. Specters pretty much negate Shadows of the Dead in effectiveness and theme, from what I can tell. I don't have much experience with them, but considering you can make a bunch of Vapor specters for cheap, and then spawn them whenever you feel like it, and then have them do a much better job of anything Shadows can do on demand... yeah, does anyone else feels Shadows are even more pointless than they already were?

Edited May 2, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Archwizard]

Today's update highlighted why Silence is so useless:

 

1. It doesn't even seem to work half the time

 

2. Why bother when Rhino Stomp is silent?

 

Pretty sure almost all abilities are silent... but don't quote me on that.

 

Oh, right, and something else with today's patch. Specters pretty much negate Shadows of the Dead in effectiveness and theme, from what I can tell. I don't have much experience with them, but considering you can make a bunch of Vapor specters for cheap, and then spawn them whenever you feel like it, and then have them do a much better job of anything Shadows can do on demand... yeah, does anyone else feels Shadows are even more pointless than they already were?

 

I have to assume part of that is based on Specters using some offshoot of the Stalker AI. Which is designed not to meander aimlessly, but to actively try to kill you.

 

Which is why I put in a call for a minion AI rework, since I would have to assume Mind Control creates some kind of telepathic link between Nyx and her minion while Nekros' minions are shaped entirely by him and his nanomachines - so it would make sense for them to be just a bit smarter while under Tenno control, since we're war machines capable of slaughtering hundreds of their soldiers at a time, which you'd think would imply some advantages in terms of on-the-spot tactical analysis.

[Noble_Cactus]

To my knowledge, all abilities are silent except for whiffed projectiles that pass enemy heads (i.e., Shuriken).

 

And yeah, I think the big thing still is that Nekros' minions can't really follow him around very easily, AI issues aside. I did like ElZilcho's idea of turning Shadows into an aura that sent out spirits to 'haunt' targets within range, but that's just my preference. The normal enemy clones could be moved to Soul Punch, maybe; as in, you punch the soul out of the target and his friends, if they die while 'cursed,' they resurrect as minions. this could act as an on-the-spot hallway distraction. Punch a Napalm and his friends, kill them, now you have a Napalm and co. walling his former buddies. It's like Mind Control, except that it potentially can raise more minions and you don't have to deal with the enemy after the effect wears off.