Pvp Mode - A New Way To Balance Things

[Legion-Shields]

Balancing PvP is the easiest approach to end game. If you balance PvP you get end game for free, in fact you get open ended end game, which is only possible through PvP. I'd argue that PvP is the best possible end game, the fact that it's also the easiest method of achieving end game doesn't make it lazy.

this is actually a pretty sensible way of looking at it.

As to the others: Everybody knows that PvP is not a focus of Warframe;OP is simply trying to figure out a way to make it viable, literally ANYTHING else is beside the point of this thread.

 

Saying that Warframe is a PvE game also relies on the premise that suggestions (and people) like the OP don't even exist, and that the game isn't still in development. The core game-play as it is is perfect for fast-paced twitch PVP (or even a tactical shooter), and once DE is satisfied with the PvE, the game itself would make a great platform on which to build a twitch shooter, if they can fix the performance issues.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Legion-Shields

[StanicEnemy]

How about everybody start to understand, that Warframe is a damn PvE game, and PvP balancing is not even near the bottom of the to-do list?

This

[Legion-Shields]

 it shouldn't be.

you sound like those people who think we shouldn't be allowed to trade prime parts.

[Arlayn]

The DE added Dojo duels and then added Conclaves. This game is a PvP game.

 

But I'd say that tweaking the conclave rating of things is sufficient for balancing PvP. Balance the game for PvE and then adjust the conclave ratings for PvP and all will be well.

they added it to silence the pvp beggars.

[AbaliskInfinite]

The DE added Dojo duels and then added Conclaves. This game is a PvP game.

 

But I'd say that tweaking the conclave rating of things is sufficient for balancing PvP. Balance the game for PvE and then adjust the conclave ratings for PvP and all will be well.

 

This game will never be a PvP centered game. How you believe that to be is a great mystery to me.

How about some tunneled vision elitists start to understand that there are some players that like PvP?

 

PvP is completely optional, there is no reward and no leaderboards, if you don't like you can completely ignore it, and let others who like it have fun.

He was just saying that PvP is one of the last things DE should be worried about. Calm down.

[Sloan441]

Don't care who likes PvP. It doesn't belong in a PvE game, particularly a collection based one.

 

It pollutes the PvE balance and there's no--NO--way to balance it and PvE. You only end up with a half-assed homogenized product that no one is particularly happy with. You need look no further than the WoW forums to see this.

[Mastikator2]

This game will never be a PvP centered game. How you believe that to be is a great mystery to me.

He was just saying that PvP is one of the last things DE should be worried about. Calm down.

The DE should focus on PvP because that is what has most potential. Most potential for end game, it solves the problem of "bad AI", it would make the difficulty open ended without having to rely on infinitely high level enemies.

 

 

Don't care who likes PvP. It doesn't belong in a PvE game, particularly a collection based one.

 

It pollutes the PvE balance and there's no--NO--way to balance it and PvE. You only end up with a half-assed &*$$genized product that no one is particularly happy with. You need look no further than the WoW forums to see this.

I am happy with PVP as it is today. I think PVP is more fun than PVE and I am glad that there are no rewards for PVP.

But I also see a lot of potential for PVP, one that is untapped and would make this game 10x more fun.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Mastikator2

[Legion-Shields]

The DE should focus on PvP because that is what has most potential. Most potential for end game, it solves the problem of "bad AI", it would make the difficulty open ended without having to rely on infinitely high level enemies.

 

 

 

I am happy with PVP as it is today. I think PVP is more fun than PVE and I am glad that there are no rewards for PVP.

But I also see a lot of potential for PVP, one that is untapped and would make this game 10x more fun.

PVP doesn't even have to be direct tactical interaction. It could be strategic domination via badlands. While I wouldn't be satisfied with that, i'd like to see how DE decides to progress from there (as far as end-game is concerned).

Edited March 25, 2014 by Legion-Shields

[Mastikator2]

PVP doesn't even have to be direct tactical interaction. It could be strategic domination via badlands. While I wouldn't be satisfied with that, i'd like to see how DE decides to progress from there (as far as end-game is concerned).

Why not both? That would be awesome.

[Legion-Shields]

Why not both? That would be awesome.

for the sake of game balance. The intent of the originally quoted post was to make end-game much easier to develop.

 

on that note, tenno-faction soldiers without proper warframes would be much more viable as player avatars for tactical PVP.

 

You could then treat the player as a traditional grunt. should be much simpler to balance, or simply not requrie any re-balancing, which I think is far more important.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Legion-Shields

[AbaliskInfinite]

The DE should focus on PvP because that is what has most potential. Most potential for end game, it solves the problem of "bad AI", it would make the difficulty open ended without having to rely on infinitely high level enemies.

 

PvP doesn't solve bad AI problems at all. They need to hold off on PvP and not make it another gawt dang band aid. After we get real endgame, Ai, difficulty, etc. we can focus on PvP. 

 

When you join Warframe, it's advertised as PvE. And right now, it's priority should be PvE.

[RoboDoge]

There are a lot of games that are PvP based. Warframe is PvE focuses, with some minor PvP.

 

 

I remember the time before U8, when all that 3 persons that wanted PvP were like " You others are stupid, U8 will shift focus on PvP!". Then they repeated that before U9. Then again before U10. And again before U11. And U12.

 

 

If you want PvP that badly and you are competitive player, go play something that isnt Warframe. Titanfall, CoD, BF or any shooter my satisfy you.

Edited March 25, 2014 by RoboDoge

[Wiegraf]

@OP

 

Abilities already have two different 'states' depending on either you are in PvE or PvP; they function differently depending if they're used on AI enemies or players along with having their values adjusted.

 

However, the problem is that no matter what amount of balance they put in PvP for weapons and frames, you can't have a fair match. PvP in Warframe currently is not about skills, it's about builds. It's a competition of munchkinism and unless there's some way found to put every player on equal footing with balanced frames and weapons, there's really no hope of having a skill-based PvP component to Warframe.

 

The only sensible way that PvP could work would be if PvP used pre-built mod loadouts for each Warframe and weapon where they could have numerical control of the balance. Right now, with the freeform nature of mod loadouts, it's easy to have one setup completely thrump all others in term of power or survivability even within the same conclave category. Hence, unless you know that optimal build, numbers will always work against you in a fight with a player who does have that build.

 

Really, it would be simplier to have PvP revolve around playing as Grineers or Corpus with standardized stats (removing any sort of 'racial resistances' to a base set for the purpose of a PvP match); from that standpoint, a match between players would then revolve about skill rather than builds as everyone would be put on equal footing.

[Mavericksfd]

@Wiegraf Thanks for the constructive feedback.  I am aware of the states, but I was thinking with the mode selection they would easily balance everything for PvP while leaving PvE unchanged.  Standard loadouts is also a good way to go to keep everyone on equal ground, but to be comepetive you should also have to work and grind through upgrading and obtaining mod cards in my opinion.  They should still play an heavy role in PvP.

[.Talia.]

@OP

 

Abilities already have two different 'states' depending on either you are in PvE or PvP; they function differently depending if they're used on AI enemies or players along with having their values adjusted.

 

However, the problem is that no matter what amount of balance they put in PvP for weapons and frames, you can't have a fair match. PvP in Warframe currently is not about skills, it's about builds. It's a competition of munchkinism and unless there's some way found to put every player on equal footing with balanced frames and weapons, there's really no hope of having a skill-based PvP component to Warframe.

 

The only sensible way that PvP could work would be if PvP used pre-built mod loadouts for each Warframe and weapon where they could have numerical control of the balance. Right now, with the freeform nature of mod loadouts, it's easy to have one setup completely thrump all others in term of power or survivability even within the same conclave category. Hence, unless you know that optimal build, numbers will always work against you in a fight with a player who does have that build.

 

Really, it would be simplier to have PvP revolve around playing as Grineers or Corpus with standardized stats (removing any sort of 'racial resistances' to a base set for the purpose of a PvP match); from that standpoint, a match between players would then revolve about skill rather than builds as everyone would be put on equal footing.

 

PvP in Warframe does require lots of skill. Parkour, Aiming, Stealth, Tactic, Quick Reflexes. Its not only about having OP weapons.

 

If you think only having OP weapons is the key for winning, i dare you to kill me 2 times in a row using your most OP loudout, and i will use a warframe without vitality or redirection, and will not use any elemental damage mods in my weapons.

[SolidSp33d]

Don't care who likes PvP. It doesn't belong in a PvE game, particularly a collection based one.

 

It pollutes the PvE balance and there's no--NO--way to balance it and PvE. You only end up with a half-assed &*$$genized product that no one is particularly happy with. You need look no further than the WoW forums to see this.

 

You need to get out more, game wise.

Like...a LOT more.

[Lickity-Split]

There actually is a way to balance it... Guild Wars 2 done it.

GW2 is widely recognized as the best PvP balanced game online.

 

Basically as soon as you step into PvP you have a max level Frame & all Weapons. 

Some Mods & Abilities become unavailable.

When you step back out of PvP you get your normal stuff back.

Basically exactly like Guild Wars 2.

 

This way PvP doesnt effect PvE in any way at all and its actual Player vs Player rather than Player vs Higher level player or Person with the most OP Frame.

No one has any advantage at all... it all comes down to skill!

 

All you would have to do is decide which abilities to remove from which frames.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Radmox

[SolidSp33d]

There actually is a way to balance it... Guild Wars 2 done it.

GW2 is widely recognized as the best PvP balanced game online.

 

Basically as soon as you step into PvP you have a max level Frame & all Weapons. 

Some Mods & Abilities become unavailable.

When you step back out of PvP you get your normal stuff back.

Basically exactly like Guild Wars 2.

 

This way PvP doesnt effect PvE in any way at all and its actual Player vs Player rather than Player vs Higher level player or Person with the most OP Frame.

No one has any advantage at all... it all comes down to skill!

 

All you would have to do is decide which abilities to remove from which frames.

 

I wouldn't give GW2 so much credit. I hear a lot more negative things about GW2 PvP.

I'm not necessarily talking about the balance of a group fighting another group (I didn't really delve into the PvP enough to judge that), but the way

the only gametype in the competitive PvP was set up. It was more about grabbing control of points than it was about battling the other players is what I hear from those who played it supposedly at higher levels.

 

But then again (more recently I think?) people have been able to set up matches for dueling or strict battling on their own right? I don't know how that aspect of things goes down,

 

Also a lot of people don't like there being ONLY normalized PvP. But yeah, it's a lack of variety there that was the issue.

 

I'm not really saying anything about the point you're making, just kinda rambling about the PvP in the game. I agree completely with the point you're making, although it needs variety and at the side a non-normalized environment for more laid-back shenanigans.

[Lickity-Split]

I wouldn't give GW2 so much credit. I hear a lot more negative things about GW2 PvP.

I'm not necessarily talking about the balance of a group fighting another group (I didn't really delve into the PvP enough to judge that), but the way

the only gametype in the competitive PvP was set up. It was more about grabbing control of points than it was about battling the other players is what I hear from those who played it supposedly at higher levels.

 

But then again (more recently I think?) people have been able to set up matches for dueling or strict battling on their own right? I don't know how that aspect of things goes down,

 

Also a lot of people don't like there being ONLY normalized PvP. But yeah, it's a lack of variety there that was the issue.

 

I'm not really saying anything about the point you're making, just kinda rambling about the PvP in the game. I agree completely with the point you're making, although it needs variety and at the side a non-normalized environment for more laid-back shenanigans.

Yeah there is a lot of complaining about it because Range > Melee.

They will never be able to fix that because of the type of game it is so they just throw bandages all over the place.

But their PvP balance system is the best one out there other than that.

 

Yeah they can now (At the cost of Real irl money) set up their own arena/BG's. but it ends up terrible.

 

Intercept would make an absolutely awesome PvP game...

Some capture the flag would be great too...

 

omg you've made me want to PvP!

[SolidSp33d]

Yeah there is a lot of complaining about it because Range > Melee.

They will never be able to fix that because of the type of game it is so they just throw bandages all over the place.

But their PvP balance system is the best one out there other than that.

 

Yeah they can now (At the cost of Real irl money) set up their own arena/BG's. but it ends up terrible.

 

Intercept would make an absolutely awesome PvP game...

Some capture the flag would be great too...

 

omg you've made me want to PvP!

 

XD mission accomplished!

lol, but seriously those modes would be pretty fun.

It would be cool if DE tossed some modes and stuff like that into conclaves randomly between their current focuses.

[DocHolliday13]

There actually is a way to balance it... Guild Wars 2 done it.

GW2 is widely recognized as the best PvP balanced game online.

 

Uhhh, no.

[Lickity-Split]

Uhhh, no.

Actually the word you're looking for is yes...

 

Structured PvP brought a balance between PvE & PvE that no other game could.

Show me another example of a game that has managed to Balance PvP in a way that it doesnt effect PvE at all, one that hasnt just used the same Structured PvP system as GW2 and I'll accept your criticism but you cant just say "Uhhh, no" because someone once whooped your &#! in PvP in GW2 and you feel you were cheated.

 

Since the thread is about Balance between PvE & PvP thats what my reply was based on, GW2's structured PvP system is without doubt the best answer to that.

 

But like I said before because of the type of game it is Range will always have an advantage over melee but Warframe wouldnt have that problem because all Frames are both Ranged & Melee.

 

Not ranting at you or taking the p*ss just saying you cant say "Uhhh, no." to what is clearly the best answer to PvP/PvE balance.