Game Becoming To Much Of A "pay To Win" Type Game.

[vieuxchat]

A quote from another topic :

"UPDATE - Mastery levels unlocking more warframe and weapon slots was confirmed during the 3rd Live Stream"

 

If that's right you should be pleased, no ? (I couldn't see the last livestream, so I dunno if that's right)

[FluffyBunnySlippers]

 

Oh well, i guess everyone thinks differently. I paid for different skins and champions for LoL because i thought it was a pretty good model for a F2P game and wanted to support the devs. I also felt that i could buy a champ and not waste time playing to get it again and if i bought a skins it was pretty nice because almost no one else would play with the same champion and same skin the same time as i did. I just don't feel that i can get anything worth in warframe.

As you say, everyone thinks different. One of the main reasons I stopped playing LoL was the ridiculous rate at which new champs were coming out, and if like me you are a compulsive hoarder, it was very expensive to keep up with everything. Especially as I was not playing in beta and had a ton of champs to get hold of if I wanted them all.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the new "'frame-rate" is in Warframe, and how that may effect the prices. If it's kept low I'm fine with paying a reasonable amount...if it get's anything like LoL I wouldn't bother.

 

LoL had it's own sneaky ways to get money out of people though, some rather subtle...but that could just be a figment of my natural cynicism kicking in.

[Story4]

A quote from another topic :

"UPDATE - Mastery levels unlocking more warframe and weapon slots was confirmed during the 3rd Live Stream"

 

If that's right you should be pleased, no ? (I couldn't see the last livestream, so I dunno if that's right)

I dunno, i watched it and i don't think that they said it was for sure, just something they may do or may not. So no, I'm not pleased.

 

As you say, everyone thinks different. One of the main reasons I stopped playing LoL was the ridiculous rate at which new champs were coming out, and if like me you are a compulsive hoarder, it was very expensive to keep up with everything. Especially as I was not playing in beta and had a ton of champs to get hold of if I wanted them all.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the new "'frame-rate" is in Warframe, and how that may effect the prices. If it's kept low I'm fine with paying a reasonable amount...if it get's anything like LoL I wouldn't bother.

 

LoL had it's own sneaky ways to get money out of people though, some rather subtle...but that could just be a figment of my natural cynicism kicking in.

Yeah I'm a hoarder myself :p, that's why the slots bit kinda bothers me. And yeah i agree, if you didn't play from the begining, going into LoL now is a pretty big problem because of all the champs that appeared after beta.

Thing is, why don't devs do something like from TF2, you have the 4 slots unlocked, but if you purchase even a very small amount of platinum you have all the slots unlocked without paying for them. I believe that this would be a pretty good compromise and with the platinum that you bought you can buy some potatoes. I think it would encourage more people to pay even if just a little bit (but once they pay a little chances are they will pay again). The way the current system is, with 4 euro you can only get 75 platinum so you will not even unlock all the slots (you will only have 8) and if you want to unlock more slots you won't even have enough to buy some potatoes.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Story4

[Nytephura]

If we aren't currently exposed to what the "end game" is, I'm not confident at all in DE to create it, have it be entirely different than how it is now, and balance it before the game needs to be released. If the end game isn't going to be grinding mods and BP's while waiting for a random catalyst alert to pop up, then what is? I don't see the game changing much in terms of goals from here to release.

ok, i've read through most of your posts...and this is what i've gotten from you.  1. You obviously dont know what BETA means.  2. Your arguments on P2win games and/or F2P games are both invalid, and inaccurate, i play and have played many games, and though there ARE some games where the market is COMPLETELY cosmetic, that ISNT the only source of income for the company.  What exactly would you propose to do "cosmetically" here? weapon skins? armour skins? colors (oh wait, they already have that one)? so you would expect them to ONLY make a POSSIBLE little amount of money from 3 possible factors?  

Now above all that, F2P games need a way to make an income, it COSTS money to make the game, run the game, and IMPROVE the game. This IS a game thats still in beta, which means that the game is UNFINISHED.  Meaning most if not all of your arguments are invalid.  Now them allowing players to make shortcuts to get higher ISNT making it Pay2win, i became a founder...wanna know what i did? i got colors...couple more item slots...and thats it.  You start out with 50 plat, thats 1 extra warframe slot, 4 extra weapon slots, which SHOULD be more then enough to give you enjoyment enough to want to spend at LEAST a little money on it.  Say put 10 bucks on it (prolly less then you spend on fast food and/or junk food in a day), and you then can have enough slots for every warframe, and almost every weapon.  I've played this game 4 days now, have already obtained 4 potato recipes, 7 weapon recipes (some bought) and part bps to make 4 complete warframes.  I've already constructed 4 of those weapons, 3 of the potatoes, and half the parts to the warframes (gonna complete making the other parts before i actually buy the warframe bps to make those).  So...tell me again how its so unfair?  All of this done in about 12 hours time...If nothing else, atm taking short cuts in this game does nothing but cut play time down for the people that do so, meaning you actually get MORE out of NOT taking the shortcuts and making the items yourself.  And another thing, my excal is maxed at lvl 30 (omg yes, i'm still using a STARTER warframe) and yes, i have a potato in it...that i built...but wanna know something funny? i STILL have 37 mod slots available on it, meaning everything i have i could have without the potato, and i STILL survive better then most other players i run into.  Also, remember, this IS free for you to play, so MANY hours of hard WORK that someone has done for you to get enjoyment out of...and it doesnt have to cost you a thing...yet you still complain...only in america do you find people like that...you get a free handout and still find a reason to complain (and yes, i'm american, live in virginia xD)

[ArcaneAzmadi]

There's no such thing as "true FtP game. Every title adds something new to the genera. It's fine not to like Warframe's model, but don't claim it somehow going against the 'rules' of free to play. 

I dunno what you mean by "true", but you want me to name an "ideal" F2P game? League of Legends. Obscure game, you may not have heard of it, just happens to be the most played PC game in the world. So I suppose Riot Games have to be doing SOMETHING right.

 

Every single gameplay-affecting thing in that game is purchasable with earned ingame currency (Influence Points or IP). The only things you CANNOT obtain with IP are purely cosmetic skins which have to be bought with Riot Points (RP). There are even power-affecting runes that CANNOT be bought with RP, only with IP, so you literally cannot "buy power" (having more champions doesn't give you more power, just more choices). Earning more champions is just a matter of playing the game because you get IP for EVERYTHING you do- every game makes steady progress towards your next purchase and there are no random elements involved. Champions are available for a wide variety of prices ranging from 450 to 6300 IP, so players can quickly build up a collection of cheap champions to use to keep the game interesting, as well as have access to 10 free champions per week. If a player's interest is particularly piqued by an expensive champion they aren't patient enough to earn IP for, they can buy them with RP instead, but if not they can fully enjoy the game with the free champions and the ones they've earned. You do NOT have to unlock champion slots before you can earn new champions to put in them. You do have to earn new rune pages to use your varied rune collections, but they CAN also be purchased for IP as well as RP. So how does Riot make so much money? By constantly adding more new skins and other appealing content, as well as making the game engaging enough for free that people are happy to pay money for convenience, not because they can't enjoy the game enough if they don't.

 

Obviously not every aspect of LoL can be converted to Warframe's game model, but it still shows the basic principles a F2P game should be following. Don't gate off ANY aspect of gameplay to your non-paying customers and make the game completely fun to play with just the F2P content. Offer them lots of exclusive stuff they'll want to buy but don't feel they HAVE to (mostly cosmetics). Weapon skins, personal paintjobs, fancy emotes, voice packs, timed transformation consumables. Stop treating your F2P customers like an enemy and encourage them to enjoy the game as much as possible, to make them WANT to spend money on it. It's just good business. And like I said, it worked for Riot.

[zelgaris]

About the "you can't buy something with RP you have to buy it with ingame credits" - last time I checked, you can't still buy a Plasma Sword in the market :)

[FluffyBunnySlippers]

I dunno what you mean by "true", but you want me to name an "ideal" F2P game? League of Legends. Obscure game, you may not have heard of it, just happens to be the most played PC game in the world. So I suppose Riot Games have to be doing SOMETHING right.

 

 

Please stop with LoL. It's an entirely different game. A highly competitive game like LoL places any "serious" player under considerable pressure to buy champs....this is basic psychology. Once people get a taste for it and start taking it seriously, there is a hell of a personal investment in remaining "at the cutting edge" so to speak.. Riot know this and take shameless advantage of it (more power to them).

 

Despite the ability to buy every champ free, Pretty much every person I knew who played LoL bought their champs at release, IP was used as and when to buy "fun" champs. Maybe my friends are unique in this, but I doubt it.

 

Warframe, by it's nature doesn't really have that level of incentive, not yet any way, and certainly not to the extent of LoL. There is no pressing need to stay at the forefront, so far more people are likely to just grind and build rather than buy. Some incentive has to be there in order to make money, at the moment that is primarily slots (to have more stuff at once) and pots (to have the best you can have without relying on luck).

<Obviously this is based on what I've read on the forums, I don't have access to any detailed breakdown of player purchasing trends.>

 

Vanity stuff is unlikely to be a huge money maker yet, particularly at the prices as they are now. I certainly wouldn't drop 75 plat on a few more shades of red, 5-10 perhaps, but not 75. I have bought Warframes though, and will do again once I see if this game lives up to it's potential.

[ZuryVarkoff]

topics like this make me giggle :D

[Drusus]

ArcaneAzmadi, on 13 Apr 2013 - 02:44 AM, said:

Everyone keeps saying that and it's STILL not true. You HAVE to buy warframe and arsenal slots with platinum, there's no other way of getting them. Considering the game is BASED around acquiring and levelling up a collection of warframes and weapons, you essentially HAVE TO spend money at some point if you want to keep playing (what are you going to do, sell a warframe? Those things take SO long to grind for I'd sooner cut off my own foot than sell one!).

And that's inexcusable. When I run out of slots and have spent the complementary 50 platinum they gave me to start, that's when I'll uninstall. I will NOT be held to ransom like this.

Ok, so here's what I don't get in your perspective.

The game is free to play. No purchase is required to enjoy a _significant_ quantity of the content available.

Literally, no cost at all to play multiple Warframes and weapons and mods and artifacts to the toughest challenges in the game.

Start to finish, you can actually play through the game in its currently described entirety, for not one cent.

We can debate the relative plat or credit pricing of things til we all turn blue in the face on what is or is not fair pricing (and the consensus I see at present is the pricing is either too expensive generally or just out and out random in terms of valuation; one just needs to look at the Akimbo versus regular weapon costs or the warframe costs to raise an eyebrow).

But the fact remains that Warframe offers a very large quantity of content, for free, no strings attached.

If you want to explore _every combination_ of stuff available to you, there is at present an obvious price point needed to do so in that extra slots must be acquired.

I fail to see, on any level, how this makes it 'pay to win' on any level whatsoever nor do I see any rational, reasonable way to support your point of view above.

Free to play does not immediately translate to 'I get it all for free, with no restrictions and no investment, ad infinitem'.

Warframe's structure is remarkably fair minded in what it charges for and where.

If you truly feel the way you state above mate, you'd do yourself a favour and just cut to the chase uninstalling now. Your perspective leaves no room for DE to actually have a business proposition nor logical debate. I cannot see any free to play game model that would make you happy the moment it has a cash shop.

Your use of the word 'ransom' in this case is truly offensive, in my opinoin, as there is nothing extortionate, whatsoever, in the elements you noted.

If you can't see that, I doubt reading my reply will do anything but upset and anger you, but I cannot let such a misguided and truly egregious twisting of the facts at hand go unanswered for my own peace of mind.

[Mbgunsling]

Suddenly.

Words.

[vats3]

okay guys, I understand the OP was bit wrong but seriously was down voting him 55 times really needed? i think thats abit of overkill

[BoogieMan82]

I know its not just me that thinks this but the game seems to be far to much "pay to win" because firstly most items can only be purchased with platinum and the few items that you can buy with credits are usually really expensive so you have to spend ages grinding, and then comparing the gear you can buy with real money to that of the starting weapons is ridiculous, sure starting gear should be poor quality but not a diffrence of taking 10 shots to kill an enemy compared to 1 shot to kill an enemy with the same type of weapon. Lastly the thing that adds most diversity to this game is getting new warframes but they are all ridiculously expensive, as in about £10, which for a game that hasnt been officially released is abit cheap. I really enjoy this game but if it goes to much more pay to win im very quickly gonna start hating this game.

The ONLY thing that you "HAVE" to use plat for in game is to get more slots for more frames/weapons.  EVERYTHING else can be farmed.

[MagnumKnight]

okay guys, I understand the OP was bit wrong but seriously was down voting him 55 times really needed? i think thats abit of overkill

NO!!!! HE MUST HAVE MORE DOWNVOTES! MOOOOOOOORE HAHAHAAA. nah just messing but seriously if people want to down vote him for something stupid then let them. his arguement is pretty tarded anyways

[Venarge]

okay guys, I understand the OP was bit wrong but seriously was down voting him 55 times really needed? i think thats abit of overkill

 

Since the 55 down dont even have any consequences, this is not really interesting :D

[securitywyrm]

Just about everything in the market, outside of cosmetics and catalyst/reactors, can be either be bought directly with credits or you can buy the blueprints for credits and grind them out. That is the primary way players get their stuff. If you want to be a free player completely you have to work for it, just like any other F2P game.

As far as I'm concerned, you cannot call a cooperative title pay to win. Pay2Convenience, that's about all you will get from me.

 

Agreed. One thing that drew me to this game was that everything important is available through just playing the game. Even the reactors have rare-drop blueprints (which are used up when you use them.) Still, rare drop is rare.

 

What would you suggest that they sell if they don't sell easier access to weapons and warframes? The game has to make money somehow, and 'just cosmetic' stuff does not pay the bills.

[Story4]

 'just cosmetic' stuff does not pay the bills.

Okay, another example if you guys are so stuck-up about league of legends, TF2. Most of the income comes from hats, which are purely vanity items and do not affect gameplay what-so-ever.

If you guys don't want all the slots to be free or craftable for F2P players, then why not do it like TF2? If you purchase plat, even a very small amount, you get all the slots unlocked and you can spend the rest of the plat to purchase potatoes/colors/warframes etc.

 

The ONLY thing that you "HAVE" to use plat for in game is to get more slots for more frames/weapons.  EVERYTHING else can be farmed.

 

Potatoes can't be farmed, they are only onbatined through login luck or alert mission random alerts. I wouldn't call that farming.

[Ced23Ric]

Well, let's not argue semantics. "Farming" as a generalized term for "ingame acquisition" is fair enough.

 

On the bigger picture: Nope. DE has a debatable, yet sensical system here. If you want to play for free, you can. All content is available to you. That part is not up for questions, because it is an irrefutable fact. Now if you feel that you want to play this game with the luxury of making more choices on what you have available at the same time, I would not deem an investment of US$20 too much. For that, you can get a boatload of 'frame and weapon slots.

 

Quick math:

 

1x 50 Plat + 2x 170 Plat = 390 Plat.

 

10x 'frame slots = 200 Plat

30x weapon slots = 180 Plat.

 

You are now playing Warframe for US$ 20, with 12 'frame slots and 38 weapon slots.

 

And before: "But it should be free! It's free to play!" - The answer is "No." - it is free to play already. You want the convenience of switching stuff around and keeping it. US$20 is hardly a steep price to play a game, especially when you consider DE's investment and efforts. I do not see a single reason to discuss that point, either.

 

Nothing is free. 'Becca's cats are hungry, too. FEED THOSE KITTENS.

[Aerensiniac]

Pay2win because you can build any weapon, any frame, any extra equipment in the game, and the only thing you need to pay for is inventory slots and colors to paint with?

 

Anyone who thinks that the game is becoming pay2win either didnt play the game at all, or has no idea about what the hell pay2win is.

These threads are either written by people who have no idea what they are talking about, or are attempting to flat out troll the community by starting flame wars.

 

The thread should have been closed long ago.

[Story4]

Well, let's not argue semantics. "Farming" as a generalized term for "ingame acquisition" is fair enough.

 

On the bigger picture: Nope. DE has a debatable, yet sensical system here. If you want to play for free, you can. All content is available to you. That part is not up for questions, because it is an irrefutable fact. Now if you feel that you want to play this game with the luxury of making more choices on what you have available at the same time, I would not deem an investment of US$20 too much. For that, you can get a boatload of 'frame and weapon slots.

 

Quick math:

 

1x 50 Plat + 2x 170 Plat = 390 Plat.

 

10x 'frame slots = 200 Plat

30x weapon slots = 180 Plat.

 

You are now playing Warframe for US$ 20, with 12 'frame slots and 38 weapon slots.

 

And before: "But it should be free! It's free to play!" - The answer is "No." - it is free to play already. You want the convenience of switching stuff around and keeping it. US$20 is hardly a steep price to play a game, especially when you consider DE's investment and efforts. I do not see a single reason to discuss that point, either.

 

Nothing is free. 'Becca's cats are hungry, too. FEED THOSE KITTENS.

"Farming" is NOT a generalized term for "in-game acquisition"... Totaly different thing.

And even if you pay now 20$ for slots, it will still take you a very long time to get all the warframes, without considering the fact that more warframes will also be released and you will still not have all the potatoes to supercharge your weapons.

If a system simialr to TF2 would be implemented i think more people would pay, because if you pay 15 euros you'd get all the slots unlocked and still have all the platinum to buy skins/warframes/colors and potatoes.

And considering that DE will definetly put more skins/weapons every week i don't see a problem in unlocking all the slots for people who purchase even the tiniest ammount of platinum.

If you want to supercharge everything your going to have to pay 40x20 plat=800 platinum so your going to have to pay at least 60$ for that. I honestly don't see a problem with applying a system similar to the TF2 one, since if you only want to buy potatoes and slots the game is going to cost you alot more than other games anyway. Not to mention that if you want to buy skins or warframes with plat to avoid grinding the price will go way up.

 

EDIT: If your going to downvote me, at least tell me why. I think that what i suggested is pretty reasonable.

Actually it's more like 50 weapons and 12 warframes, which will be 1240 platinum to supercharge everything, so if you want to unlock all the slots for weapons and warframes and also supercharge all of them your going to have to pay in europe 90 euros. IMO that's a pretty steep price that does not include buying any warframe/weapons or colors/skins.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Story4

[Mbgunsling]

@(*()&#036;.

Words.

[Speary]

^relevant

Edited April 16, 2013 by Speary

[RamonLLLL]

Well, the existence of platinums already made it a Pay-To-Win game.
I'm okay with using plats to buy cosmetic items (colour/avatar) . But they should give opportunities in alerts or competitions/lucky draws for us to earn plats.

[Venarge]

Okay, another example if you guys are so stuck-up about league of legends, TF2. Most of the income comes from hats, which are purely vanity items and do not affect gameplay what-so-ever.

If you guys don't want all the slots to be free or craftable for F2P players, then why not do it like TF2? If you purchase plat, even a very small amount, you get all the slots unlocked and you can spend the rest of the plat to purchase potatoes/colors/warframes etc.

 

 

Potatoes can't be farmed, they are only onbatined through login luck or alert mission random alerts. I wouldn't call that farming.

Unlock all the slots? you actually know that the slots you can have are unlimited if you would have unlimited plat.

Giving someone unlimited slots for just because he purchased 5 bucks is simply not smart....

Edited April 20, 2013 by Venarge

[Emolition]

Well, the existence of platinums already made it a Pay-To-Win game.

I'm okay with using plats to buy cosmetic items (colour/avatar) . But they should give opportunities in alerts or competitions/lucky draws for us to earn plats.

Sure the guy won over me for he had that color I wanted guess he wins the 500 dollar prize oh wait there is non. As color is the only thing I cant get free unless there is an event that happen to sell colors for 1 credit =P (not counting the slots now).

[PapaKicks]

These are farmable or purchasable with credits?
- affinity booster

- credit booster

- helmets with stats

 

If so do share.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Akivoodoo