De, You Took What Should Have Been Fun And Just Turned It Into A Grind

[Fomiru]

I spent quite a bit of time over my spring break, playing ( The hype and the amount of nothing to do was real, i'm taking a breather right now. )

I only recieved 3 stances that WEREN'T through transmute, through all the gameplay. All of it. I feel like the drop chances are way to low to even be considered reasonable, I only got them through transmute. Nearly 500k credits of transmute because I was sick of farming for the stances, I got super lucky and got the stuff I wanted, and moved on my way.

The Dark sectors are rather easy for endgame, I really feel like DE doesn't know what endgame is, and should really think about it again before moving forward with their other ideas.

Edited April 16, 2014 by TzTokBoggle

[Khunvyel]

There are rare mods for this purpose that aren't CORE GAMEPLAY MECHANICS like Stance mods are.

 

Here is where you are mistaken. Stance mods are not the core gameplay mechanic for Melee 2.0

The combos are neat, but you are better off NOT using them, in the majority of instances.

The real core features of Melee 2.0 are shipped for everyone to use instantly. Don't be blinded by the hype train and look beyond your mods. A game is only as good as you play it. Not necessarily as good as your mods are.

[Voltyr]

Here is where you are mistaken. Stance mods are not the core gameplay mechanic for Melee 2.0

The combos are neat, but you are better off NOT using them, in the majority of instances.

The real core features of Melee 2.0 are shipped for everyone to use instantly. Don't be blinded by the hype train and look beyond your mods. A game is only as good as you play it. Not necessarily as good as your mods are.

I fail to see how this is relevant. What is or isn't "THE core gameplay mechanic" for melee 2.0 has no impact on what is and isn't A core gameplay mechanic of the game as a whole.

The fact that the combos aren't the most impotant change melee 2.0 makes is evident enough, but that doesn't mean that combos aren't an integral part of the new Warframe experience. And as being an integral part of the new warframe experience, I do not believe they should be locked behind mods at all.

As for the statement you ended your post with, I'm not quite sure why you would say that because I wholly agree and I apologize if I've somehow been unclear and implied that I don't agree with that. I don't put much value in the mods at all, more in the gameplay, which is precisely why I'm displeased with the way stances and combos have been handled.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Voltyr

[Voltyr]

I actually don't see a problem to farm a mod for a weapon i don't have yet. It gives me a reason to get the weapon faster.

This is assuming you want to use the weapon at all. As much as it's often encouraged to just get every weapon for the sake of ranking up, not everyone wants to use every weapon. Some weapons may be downright dull to use for some people, after all.

[Khunvyel]

The fact that the combos aren't the most impotant change melee 2.0 makes is evident enough, but that doesn't mean that combos aren't an integral part of the new Warframe experience. And as being an integral part of the new warframe experience, I do not believe they should be locked behind mods at all

I think this is where we differ in opinion. If I weigh every single thing that Melee 2.0 brought up in terms of importance, then the stance combos pretty much fall to the last place in terms of usability. In terms of style factor, they gain a few points, but in the end it matters that you are able to kill things before they can kill you. And sometimes, executing combos nowadays is as detrimental as ground finishers with heavy weapons in M 1.0 when it comes to "not die while you fight."

Mind you, I've mentioned this time and again through various posts now, that I rather want to see stances take a bigger role with instant changes, and if they do, then increase their drop frequency. Mods are always tedious to think about. I wonder, how long the people crying for stance mods needed to farm their multishot mods and all other related rare mods which are deemed "essential" for a given weapon and how this relation goes to the time invested for the new stance mods. I know I took months to get my first barrel diffusion drop... then again, I have to be honest enough to say I didn't specifically FARM for it. Barrel Diffusion just happened! :D

 

 

As for the statement you ended your post with, I'm not quite sure why you would say that because I wholly agree and I apologize if I've somehow been unclear and implied that I don't agree with that. I don't put much value in the mods at all, more in the gameplay, which is precisely why I'm displeased with the way stances and combos have been handled.

Oh no, I apologize on my own because I didn't mean to target you specifically. I wanted to address all the people who DO only see the mods in their game and nothing else. I didn't imply you were one of them. It was a general statement and I'm sorry if I pointed at you in error! :)

[Edgedemon]

by the time this took to get into a flame war i already build hydroid and got several stances including tranquil cleave...

 

 i guess is a matter of priorities.

[And_Now_I_Dance]

by the time this took to get into a flame war i already build hydroid and got several stances including tranquil cleave...

 

 i guess is a matter of priorities.

 

Flame war?  The discussion taking place throughout this thread, even among people who disagree with each other, has been extremely civil.

 

Also, I think you completely missed the point.

[Khunvyel]

Some people simply think that every disagreement on the internet is bound to be a flame war :/ Even worse, there are even some who think every disagreement in any kind of conversation is automatically a quarrel. Hard to discuss with these people.

 

I absolutely agree with the civil exchange happening here, over the course of many pages.

[Killerdude8]

It's a shame DE won't even consider your Topic OP..

 

I weep for Warframe as a whole, Seeing it fly down the toilet like this is saddening to say the least.

[HiroProtagonest]

I wouldn't be surprised if DE pretended this topic doesn't exist. I couldn't bring myself to read all ten pages to see if someone else was going to post something like what I was going to post, but I couldn't because it was just post after post of anecdotal experience with the RNG to prop up people's bitterness and resentment. Yes, this game is flawed. Yes, they haven't delivered stuff that really fixes problems. But sharing anecdotes about how you had bad luck isn't going to inspire fixes. It's not what's needed to get them to put in more lore or more fluid movement systems or even fix the loot drops (if that's possible). You want anecdotes? I got like, twenty copies of the Fracturing Wind stance, just from doing a handful of Dark Sector Survivals. I've gotten about a half-dozen other Uncommon stances and one rare. Now I haven't gotten a single Tranquil Cleave yet in hours of Cambria farming, but hey, I did get Pistol Ammo Mutation as a reward once, which was good.

 

I do believe this game is flawed. I also believe that DE is doing less than they could to fix it, not using their time efficiently and instead just trying to push out new frames and other new content to keep players to stay longer rather than make the game more fun. But this isn't the way to get it fixed.

[Ashild_36]

I can't say that i have experienced the grinding experience of farming for these mods, i have been lucky enough to find a few and i've only had a few hours to play. But DE dose need to either increase the drop rates of the dam things or at least let everyone have at least 1 until more are found.

[NGarai]

Appreciate the candid words of the OP, they reflect exactly how I feel about U13 implementation. I spread the pre-released hype among two friends who had left the game some moths ago. They returned with excitement, left in disappointment. Not sure if they will return, and I'm not sure I am willing to re-convince them.

[ensignvidiot]

by the time this took to get into a flame war i already build hydroid and got several stances including tranquil cleave...

 

 i guess is a matter of priorities.

 

 

congradulations! You have luck!

 

the door to Gen Discussion is over that way.

[gamefreak9149]

You sir OP deserve more likes because it is the truth, the grind is killing the players. I still am hunting for my Orthos stance, rare mods are just too rare. I had hundreds of tail winds and other mods and but maybe one or two uncommon stances to show for it.

[Voltyr]

I think this is where we differ in opinion. If I weigh every single thing that Melee 2.0 brought up in terms of importance, then the stance combos pretty much fall to the last place in terms of usability. In terms of style factor, they gain a few points, but in the end it matters that you are able to kill things before they can kill you. And sometimes, executing combos nowadays is as detrimental as ground finishers with heavy weapons in M 1.0 when it comes to "not die while you fight."

Mind you, I've mentioned this time and again through various posts now, that I rather want to see stances take a bigger role with instant changes, and if they do, then increase their drop frequency. Mods are always tedious to think about. I wonder, how long the people crying for stance mods needed to farm their multishot mods and all other related rare mods which are deemed "essential" for a given weapon and how this relation goes to the time invested for the new stance mods. I know I took months to get my first barrel diffusion drop... then again, I have to be honest enough to say I didn't specifically FARM for it. Barrel Diffusion just happened! :D

'Tis true, Stance mods are far from an essential item for success. In fact some of them appear to be detrimental in some way. I would like to nuance my earlier statements though, just to clarify: By "core gameplay mechanic" I do not mean that something is essential for success or enjoyment in the game. I mean that it is a gameplay mechanic that has been irreversably integrated into the personality of the game.

I personally believe that, while combos are decidedly not the holy grail of warframe success some people think they are, combos are however a "core gameplay mechanic" following my definition of that term as described above. My reasoning is that as such, locking a mechanic like this behind mods is like hiding a part of the game. To make a comparision I think is more apt than the ones I have used previously, I feel it is as though wallrunning and parkour had been turned into mods. Although you don't need to wallrun to succeed at the game and there is almost always a way in a level to avoid having to do it, it has become hard to imagine Warframe without wallrunning and the game would be that much duller with the absence of this mechanic. In locking it behind a mod, many people would be left dejected that they wouldn't get to experience the full potential of the game, the essence or spirit of it if you will.

And I believe that the combo system is now in that position. It's a part of the game's personality and while using it should certainly remain optional, I do believe that the ABILITY to use it should be open to all, like wallrunning. We are playing ninjas after all, aren't we?

But yes, with enough patience the mods will eventually drop. And that will be glorious, though it is hard to play the game when I'm thinking about how much more awesome it would be if I had Cleaving Whirlwind or Swirling Tiger.

And apology duely accepted good sir! I'm glad that you cleared that earlier misunderstanding up for me.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Voltyr

[Nkomo-Sama]

Everyone wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...you have to look for what you want. Sometimes it is tedious. I TRANSMUTED 7 RARE STANCES. So there is that. You take away the grind and then you lose some of the replay ability as of right now. The truth is there is not enough super high level engaging content as of yet therefore we grind the hard ones to acquire what we want. Hence the endgame saga, I am ok with this for now. I think the stance idea is negotiable. I agree innate combos on a combo tree would be nice but alot of peoples melee weapons were already maxed by the time the update came out so...

If this does not apply to you (including the OP) it is not directed at you People demand change but when patience is required there is a problem. I really would not want to be a developer at DE and neither would you all want me to be. The amount of "Shutup and wait!"'s would be too epic to 1. Misinterpret 2. maintain a semi-complacent community. I think soon is a much better approach in hindsight. I like the new melee system far more than I dislike it. I give it a solid B+. Rare stances. Man... they are...rare. I understand you want more carrot less stick. ME too. The thing is...carrots take time to grow man and sticks are waaay quicker to find. You see how long melee 2.5 took? It was released EARLY (most likely incomplete but totally playable) cuz...nerdrage. It is being ridiculed and under appreciated now  because of..well nerdrage+entitlement+complete lack of consideration/knowledge as to what it takes to make a video game for FREE (F2P). You really all mean to say OH MY GOD THANK YOU SO MUCH I LOVE YOU you really just don't know it. As a matter of fact here is a thread just for that. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/213184-thesupermegathreadofthank-yous/#entry2485031 If I worked at DE and saw how few people even had the heart to say thank you...maaaan let's just say you are all lucky I am not a developer at DE I'd be fired or CEO seeing how nice and decent they are....DO ANY OF YOU even donate on a consistent basis? I mean do you donate ONE THIRD of the times you complain? ONE EIGHTH perhaps? Can you agree to 10% of the complaints have received a MiniMuM contribution? That does not guarantee it but it would at least give you a sliver of a hope of an argument of some type of feeling of entitlement. Not saying you have to pay to complain or voice your concern...but demand? Who owes you? Do yourself a favor and cut it out. Please don't respond telling me how much you donate here. Words are cheap and you would be typing it for your pride more than anything else. Anyone can say anything. Just answer that question to yourself and try and be just a little considerate. Again if this does not apply to you it is not directed at you. You demand and demand... Man my middle finger would be so stiff.....

Edited April 17, 2014 by Nkomo-Sama

[Nagisawa]

Was turned into a grind?  Haven't really played long, have you?

 

The game has always been a grind.  The more they add, the more it will be.

[Khunvyel]

I would like to nuance my earlier statements though, just to clarify: By "core gameplay mechanic" I do not mean that something is essential for success or enjoyment in the game. I mean that it is a gameplay mechanic that has been irreversably integrated into the personality of the game.

Agreed, even though I'd like to mess a little with your statement :D Essential for success? not really. Essential for enjoyment? Definitely. I enjoy (most of) the animations, but I find myself using them only when I know I'm out of the danger zone.

 

 

My reasoning is that as such, locking a mechanic like this behind mods is like hiding a part of the game. To make a comparision I think is more apt than the ones I have used previously, I feel it is as though wallrunning and parkour had been turned into mods. Although you don't need to wallrun to succeed at the game and there is almost always a way in a level to avoid having to do it, it has become hard to imagine Warframe without wallrunning and the game would be that much duller with the absence of this mechanic.

This is a very good analogy which makes a lot more sense. This allows me to add more food for thought;

If they changed parkour to only allow all existing moves we have to be accessed through mods, then this would not be identical to the situation we have with stance mods. You still can swing your melee weapons, so they would need to take some moves away and add them as mods.

However, if they ADD more moves or options in freedom to parkour and put them as mods, then it would be the same situation. This is the same with melee. They didn't cut down on things. DE did not REDUCE melee options with M2.0. They substituted. replacing charge attack with channeling (which is, honestly, a lot better alternative in my point of view) and cranked up the damage by a LOT.

In addition to that, they put all the extras (Combos) into a position where you do not need to make a sacrifice. They slapped an extra slot on your melee weapon, so you don't even need to ponder which mod you sacrifice for others. This is feedback they've taken into consideration and changed accordingly. So much for everyone claiming DE doesn't listen to the playerbase (clarifying; I don't mean YOU XD ).

 

So while your analogy is indeed a lot better, I think it still doesn't quite hold true. If they change the current "Acrobat" mod into something that unlocks more parkour maneuvers, then I'm sure people are going to scream out. I'd be asking in return; "you trade off one mod slot for more mobility. This is totally fair. What is your problem?". It is a mod which is not rare and dropping from an enemy which isn't rare either. Some people simply do not use acrobatics so they wouldn't care. And zorencoptering is not an acrobatic, but a melee maneuver. I use acrobatics a lot. I would love to add upon them, but I wouldn't have a trouble if I need to use a mod slot doing so, because it offers me more specialized movements to trade off elsewhere.

If I may return to draw a comparison to other games, let us pick Devil may Cry 3 again; there is one style called "Trickster". Your style button now adds a truckload of mobility to your movement. You chose a style which does not add extra damage options but offers you a different kind of game to play. Perfect example for a well done tradeoff.

For everyone saying "But in Devil may cry 4 you could switch stances ON THE FLY." Yes, absolutely true. But note, you still can only have ONE style up simultaneously.

 

I'm still interested in how much of a grindwall the stances actually are. There are many mods out there which give you an instant gratification, and they are rare. All the multishot mods, etc. I'd like to know how long people farmed for them in comparison to the stance mods. I've lost count of my Fractured Winds already. Granted, they do need to redistribute mod rarity and drop location, I sign this each and every day. But I cannot shake the feeling that some people are frustrated to not get the mod they want, because they already have everything and thus lost the perspective.

I still wouldn't have a problem with making certain mods from rare to uncommon. For example, the 1hand Sword stance. Those weapons still are inferior to the rest even though they've started closing the gap. Having Iron Phoenix to be uncommon and not rare, could absolutely give a new player a chance to receive a stance for their Skana / Cronus and enjoy the game more. Rare? Not so much.

 

 

 

And I believe that the combo system is now in that position. It's a part of the game's personality and while using it should certainly remain optional, I do believe that the ABILITY to use it should be open to all, like wallrunning. We are playing ninjas after all, aren't we?

We play Ninjas in theory, as everyone makes their own game. There are enough people who grab their Penta, stand put with their Rhino / Frost and just happily lob grenades to kill everything. How Ninja is that? So while I'd love to agree with you, empirical evidence prohibits me to do so :/

Mind you, again, I can only argue as I do due to position the combos are in.

If Combos / different chains could be executed right off the bat instead of the end and stances would still be mostly rare? I'd hoist the Jolly Roger fire all my cannons.

If Channeling attacks and counter attacks could only be pulled off with a stance? I'd hoist the Jolly Roger fire all my cannons.

If I could equip my melee weapon only if I have a stance mod slotted? I'd hoist the Jolly Roger fire all my cannons.

But none of this is the case, everything melee 1.0 sported is still there, including substitutes, and there is even more without having a stance mod. They are like the cherry on top. Nice, but a matter of preference.

 

 

And apology duely accepted good sir! I'm glad that you cleared that earlier misunderstanding up for me.

Right back to you, gentleman! I relish the exchange in this civil debate :)

[Chupacabra]

*Looks at vote counter*

 

GREAT GUGAMUGAH

 

+1 OP, and another for keeping it classy. I feel your pain, was in the same exact situation a huge letdown. I've mentioned this earlier that when you have RNG+SUPER LOW %'s the amount of people that just don't get lucky is unacceptable.

 

That being said, the wording for the community hot topics are rather telling in that the current placement for that stances is a temporary measure until proxy wars are up and running, now whether or no this is good implementation... 

 

HOWEVER the hot topic before this discussed the stances inclusion as drops and was met with extremely negative feedback. Maybe they'll learn their lesson this time?

[Wolfstorm18]

I miss melee 1.0.

 

I miss the fast melee.

 

I miss the charge attack. 

 

Of course now we have a block that works, but now we also have consolitis: hold button here, hold button there, its just awkward. And it takes too long to sheat/unsheat the weapon. 

 

I have the feeling they just removed two things from us: the fast melee and the charge attack. Before, you just had to hold melee button, it was so practical, so intuitive, so user-friendly. Now, this was gone. Thats how we are 'rewarded' for playing so many missions. Instead of having challenging enemies, we have consolitis and more RNG. 

[Voltyr]

Agreed, even though I'd like to mess a little with your statement :D Essential for success? not really. Essential for enjoyment? Definitely. I enjoy (most of) the animations, but I find myself using them only when I know I'm out of the danger zone.

Fair enough!

 

 

This is a very good analogy which makes a lot more sense. This allows me to add more food for thought;

If they changed parkour to only allow all existing moves we have to be accessed through mods, then this would not be identical to the situation we have with stance mods. You still can swing your melee weapons, so they would need to take some moves away and add them as mods.

However, if they ADD more moves or options in freedom to parkour and put them as mods, then it would be the same situation. This is the same with melee. They didn't cut down on things. DE did not REDUCE melee options with M2.0. They substituted. replacing charge attack with channeling (which is, honestly, a lot better alternative in my point of view) and cranked up the damage by a LOT.

In addition to that, they put all the extras (Combos) into a position where you do not need to make a sacrifice. They slapped an extra slot on your melee weapon, so you don't even need to ponder which mod you sacrifice for others. This is feedback they've taken into consideration and changed accordingly. So much for everyone claiming DE doesn't listen to the playerbase (clarifying; I don't mean YOU XD ).

Absolutely true. Perhaps I should amend my previous statements to change the hypothetical "parkour mods" situation into a situation where parkour had always been a benefit drawn from mods only? An alternate timeline if you will in which DE did not see fit to grace us with the parkour mechanic as a separate and readily available entity. That would alleviate the primary problem in my example, I do believe.

Additionally, I wholeheartedly agree with your praise of Melee 2.0 as a whole. Ignoring my minor gripes with the grinding involved in accessing certain content, I would go as far as to say that it is my favorite update to any game I have ever witnessed. For the MOST part, it's been a spectacular success.

 

 

I'm still interested in how much of a grindwall the stances actually are. There are many mods out there which give you an instant gratification, and they are rare. All the multishot mods, etc. I'd like to know how long people farmed for them in comparison to the stance mods. I've lost count of my Fractured Winds already. Granted, they do need to redistribute mod rarity and drop location, I sign this each and every day. But I cannot shake the feeling that some people are frustrated to not get the mod they want, because they already have everything and thus lost the perspective.

I still wouldn't have a problem with making certain mods from rare to uncommon. For example, the 1hand Sword stance. Those weapons still are inferior to the rest even though they've started closing the gap. Having Iron Phoenix to be uncommon and not rare, could absolutely give a new player a chance to receive a stance for their Skana / Cronus and enjoy the game more. Rare? Not so much.

This exact thought has actually crossed my mind earlier and helped spark my relative discontent with stances coming in mod form, seeing as a good friend of mine is just now trying to get into the game and is greatly enjoying playing together, but is annoyed with the grind. Following your advice and making stances like Iron Phoenix Uncommon would go a long way towards helping out, although I still believe that my own, more radical solution would remove the problem entirely as opposed to alleviating it. My solution being to simply release stances as a freely accessible thing. Though I'm aware that it isn't strictly necessary and that by simply making low-tier stance mods Uncommon or maybe even Common there would be little cause for complaint left anyway,

 

 

We play Ninjas in theory, as everyone makes their own game. There are enough people who grab their Penta, stand put with their Rhino / Frost and just happily lob grenades to kill everything. How Ninja is that? So while I'd love to agree with you, empirical evidence prohibits me to do so :/

Mind you, again, I can only argue as I do due to position the combos are in.

If Combos / different chains could be executed right off the bat instead of the end and stances would still be mostly rare? I'd hoist the Jolly Roger fire all my cannons.

If Channeling attacks and counter attacks could only be pulled off with a stance? I'd hoist the Jolly Roger fire all my cannons.

If I could equip my melee weapon only if I have a stance mod slotted? I'd hoist the Jolly Roger fire all my cannons.

But none of this is the case, everything melee 1.0 sported is still there, including substitutes, and there is even more without having a stance mod. They are like the cherry on top. Nice, but a matter of preference.

You make an excellent case, though I am left to wonder where the line is between core mechanics and simple "extras". While your point holds a lot of merit it does leave us in a strange spot in regards to what is and isn't a mere matter of preference. You noted a few examples of things that you consider *not* to be mere optional mechanics and while I agree with your list it doesn't provide us with a workable definition for this line that needs to be drawn to determine what is and isn't okay to lock behind mods.

Perhaps though, in wanting to draw that line we are entering the realm of ethical philosofy, and Lord knows I don't consider myself qualified to make any statements within that field.

 

 

Right back to you, gentleman! I relish the exchange in this civil debate :)

Likewise, my good man (or lady, not to make assumptions), likewise! I think we may have finally reached a consensus, and our conversation leading up to it has been most enlightening. It's been a pleasure to be allowed to look through another's point of view without being forced to do so under harsh vitriol.

[unknow99]

I miss melee 1.0.

 

I miss the fast melee.

 

I miss the charge attack. 

 

Of course now we have a block that works, but now we also have consolitis: hold button here, hold button there, its just awkward. And it takes too long to sheat/unsheat the weapon. 

 

I have the feeling they just removed two things from us: the fast melee and the charge attack. Before, you just had to hold melee button, it was so practical, so intuitive, so user-friendly. Now, this was gone. Thats how we are 'rewarded' for playing so many missions. Instead of having challenging enemies, we have consolitis and more RNG. 

I guess that for 90% complainers (and the big majority of Galatine/Jat Kittag/ Glaive users) : charge attacks back = win-win situation. :p

(Even though just holding "E" shouldn't be more powerful than 2.0, in my opinion.)

[HiroProtagonest]

I miss melee 1.0.

 

I miss the fast melee.

 

I miss the charge attack. 

 

Of course now we have a block that works, but now we also have consolitis: hold button here, hold button there, its just awkward. And it takes too long to sheat/unsheat the weapon. 

 

I have the feeling they just removed two things from us: the fast melee and the charge attack. Before, you just had to hold melee button, it was so practical, so intuitive, so user-friendly. Now, this was gone. Thats how we are 'rewarded' for playing so many missions. Instead of having challenging enemies, we have consolitis and more RNG. 

Wow, I think this is the first time I've seen the term "consolitis" used to describe making something MORE complicated.

[Khunvyel]

Perhaps I should amend my previous statements to change the hypothetical "parkour mods" situation into a situation where parkour had always been a benefit drawn from mods only?

Hm... interesting point indeed. The question would be how much of that would have been shipped by default and how much of that would be added from mods. There is a distinct chance that people would cry less about stance mods because they are "used" to acrobatic mods. But by the same token, there would be people who would valiantly try to make those parkour mods to be essential and built-in to the game. It also depends where those hypothetical acrobatic mods would be put in. As regular mod? Then it would be worse than stance mods, because the latter came shipped with an EXTRA slot which even gives you mod power like an Aura. As "movement" mod, parallel to an Aura mod? That would be on equal footing then.

 

 

This exact thought has actually crossed my mind earlier and helped spark my relative discontent with stances coming in mod form, seeing as a good friend of mine is just now trying to get into the game and is greatly enjoying playing together, but is annoyed with the grind. Following your advice and making stances like Iron Phoenix Uncommon would go a long way towards helping out, although I still believe that my own, more radical solution would remove the problem entirely as opposed to alleviating it. My solution being to simply release stances as a freely accessible thing. Though I'm aware that it isn't strictly necessary and that by simply making low-tier stance mods Uncommon or maybe even Common there would be little cause for complaint left anyway.

I hope you don't grump at me for what I say now but... little do many people know about grinding, and I do not know the extent your friend plays the game nor how much he is affected by luck, etc., so I cannot make any other statement about it. But it raises the feeling of; "it is a mod / mechanic , I NEED to have it, no matter what, why isn't it free?" I would need to know more about that friend to voice a proper opinion about it and without resorting to stereotypes and assumptions. But that is more or less theoretical, as I don't see you write paragraphs about your friend just to have me attempt a questionable analysis :D

 

Back to your point;

Yes, your solution is more radical and removes the problem entirely. But it also at the same time removes the feeling for getting a reward and making progress. That first time you got Serration or Hornet Strike? I bet that was a damn upbeat time for you. The first time you got stuff like Barrel Diffusion and Split chamber? Holy crap, more damage on my damage! The feeling of progress would be lost. Mind you, I am not defending mods per se, especially not the multishot ones, but one cannot deny the reaction; "YES! NOICE!" My face when I am finally going to receive Master Thief? I would be glad to have ears, because else my smile wound round my entire head. I remember the first time when I got Jagged Edge... oh yes. Now we're talking :D *moar slashies*

 

Now, having said that, could there be a different way? I believe there could! Imagine the following; All stances exist in 3 variations. As an example, "Iron Phoenix" (common), "Silver Phoenix" (uncommon), "Gold Phoenix" (rare). The uncommon and Rare versions of the stance add more combos and the rare version also allows for 5 ranks instead of 3. Would this give you more sense of progression? Maybe. Would this dilute drop tables? Likely. Especially if there is no way to have fixed transmute recipes and especially if you cannot upgrade mods. Would it break with conformity? Yes, because there are no mods out there which are simply a better version of the original mods. Some argue that Nightmare mods are, but I hold against this statement.

Would I PERSONALLY like such an idea? Honestly... no. I'd still rather have all stances uncommon. But if I had a say in it, I would also change their ranks to 5 or perhaps introduce a new 7 rank and add combos and possibly extra features depending on how high you have the rank of the stance. This would give you a similar sense of progression as you have with normal mods; increase rank, gain more benefits. You get an instant benefit with stance mods by unlocking combos, but nothing else if you rank them other than mod points. Auras on the other hand, give you an increased benefit other than extra mod points if you rank them

*looks left and right and then sneakily puts all the said things as notes in his big pile of notes for suggestions*

 

 

You make an excellent case, though I am left to wonder where the line is between core mechanics and simple "extras". While your point holds a lot of merit it does leave us in a strange spot in regards to what is and isn't a mere matter of preference. You noted a few examples of things that you consider *not* to be mere optional mechanics and while I agree with your list it doesn't provide us with a workable definition for this line that needs to be drawn to determine what is and isn't okay to lock behind mods.

There is no line, frankly. Especially if we consider the mod system as "Skill Tree 2.0"

The game sets a theme, and within this theme we have choices. Let me make a list;

• I am super happy that all weapons are not bound to the Frame you equipped them with. This is a huge thing. The game is extremely "Alt-friendly", especially once you have a single Aura mod. Got that new frame? *WOOSH* decking it out with mods already while it is unranked, and giving it ranked weapons to level easier.
• I am super happy that mods are not welded to the items which you apply them on and either need to spend platinum or whatever to get them out again, IF at all. Imagine that the only way to replace a mod is to destroy it and slot it with a different one? Outrageous? Well, there are entire GAMES based on this very feature.
• I am super happy about the choice we are provided in terms of weapons. A frame with a Gorgon + Lex + Scindo feels inherently different than the same frame with a Bow + thrown weapons and Fang. In other games you need to level an entire new class up to use those weapons. Here? Not in the slightest. All the difference the Warframes make is provide is their set of 4 skills, and their innate stats. This is mindblowing, compared to a lot of games out there.
• I am super happy that weapons do not have a "Framelevel" requirement. Once I have obtained a weapon, I can instantly use it on any level of any Frame. People cuss and curse the mastery rank? Oh please. Global account level to unlock things for ALL your "Characters"? Yes please.
• I am super happy about every single Warframe and weapon being available through ingame effort (founders excluded), and this is far from a given in the F2P sector.
• I am super happy about colour customization options. This is far from self-evident. So many developers pitch a fit when someone wants to colour an iconic character hot pink. And what do our Devs do? (Yes, I just said our Devs. That is how much I love them) ? They look forward to release animations sets of characters to be applied to other Warframes and the first example they come up with is Rhino doing the Ember-sexy-stretch.
• I am super happy that revives are bound PER FRAME and not per account. Tried that mission often enough and failed at it? "Swabbuwing Freim!"

 

The list could go on, but I hope this brought one point across; while there might not be that much content in the game as there could be, nobody can complain about the CHOICE we have available as to which we play the content. This is a rather good example of a mix between horizontal and vertical progression. And they are giving so many things already which other companies charge or punish you for.

 

 

Likewise, my good man (or lady, not to make assumptions), likewise! I think we may have finally reached a consensus, and our conversation leading up to it has been most enlightening. It's been a pleasure to be allowed to look through another's point of view without being forced to do so under harsh vitriol.

Oh dear, that makes me feel bad :D because I DID make assumptions. Because, you know, "Volt" is a guy, and "-yr" sounded very male ^^°

But yes, this is me tipping my hat at you, and not doing a curtsey *chuckles*

[Rilence]

I have to agree with the OP. I'd like to think DE knows better than to think putting such a core mechanic behind this kind of a grind is a good idea. I'm hopeful they'll change it. If not, I'll be a little worried, because they've been reasonable for the most part with their decisions in the past.

 

For the last few days I've been trying to find Gleaming Talon for my Glaive by farming Xini and I still haven't gotten it. I've been pouring hours into this to be able to try this core mechanic. That's bad design. I'll be genuinely surprised if they don't tweak this. I find it hard to imagine they'd really approve of this themselves long-term.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Rilence