We Have To Immediately Defend? Again?!

[Blatantfool]

I was expecting the Dark Sectors to be... you know, usable.

What sense does it make if these playable sections are basically just trophies for a clan or alliance's e-peen? If that's what DE was going for, the clan rails shouldn't have been linked to missions in the first place.

They weren't added to the game to be another stagnating farming zone. They were added to the game to be fought over. You fight until no one wants to try to contest you any more.

Eclipse made a bold but foolhardy move putting their name on so many different nodes. Now if other clans want to own space they'll be more likely to end up challenging Eclipse to take on of their many territories. When that Alliance staked so many claims they opened themselves up for this. Now we'll see if they really have what it takes to own so many spaces - or if they'll lose a few.

But u know. In real battles defending side by position is 10 times stronger. So it means that attacker should bring at least 40000 players to defeat 4000 players strong Eclipse alliance.

That is complete crap. I don't know why you even think that.

And it isn't just two Alliances fighting anyway. Anyone who doesn't like either Alliance can help destroy that Alliance's tower.

this entire system is pointless and deeply flawed and literally went from being the best thing about U13 to being, hands down, the most convincing reason to permanently uninstall warframe yet.

Fix your s**t DE.

Lay off the melodrama. Any saltier and you'd be boardwalk fries.

[-Ex-Gamer-]

why repair for 15m when it only cost 500k to make another one? Idk why ppl still crying about it.. don't it go back to mario bros. let other clans deploy their rails.. 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Considering how few Dark Sectors are compared to the amount of Clans/Alliances that want them, add the fact Eclipse decided to grab 8 of them, what did you expect was going to happen? 

 

Time to choose between keeping 1-2 of those rails or enjoy doing non-stop contested runs to try and keep all of your rails who will be constantly contested.

I don't think you understand the scale of the problem.

There's so many clans (80,000 or there abouts going by the last official figures I've seen), so few nodes, and the cost for launching a rail is so low (Anyone who's been here for more than a month can probably build one alone) that it's not a choice of pulling back to keep one or two rails secure, it's "there's no point in keeping any rails at all because it's so easy to lose them."

Like, even if Eclipse focused all the efforts of their 4k man alliance on one single node, they're going to run up to the problem of how there's no real point since like clockwork it will be contested by anyone with a rail, which will be everyone, with everyone getting just 24 hours of access to that node as an actual dark sector, rather than as a tower sabotage mission.

You fight until no one wants to try to contest you any more.

That's the problem of this system. There will always be someone else to contest the node because barriers for entry are so low.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Hit-Monkey]

The problem is that it can be contended again at any time.

The one that ended in Juptier had another contender in like five minutes. Hardly enough time to let the masses enjoy the sector.

It's only reasonable to allow a cooldown period. Not just for the defending clan, but for other players as well.

Nothing's stopping them from enjoying the sector. It was like this the first time. We had 24 hours while Eclipse and the others had their rails out first, while opposing clans spent those hours launching their own. This is the same amount of time as we had the first time.

 

How is this not obvious?

[DeltaMercenary]

There needs to be a cooldown longer than just the 24 hour period of a new rail contest deployment.

Beyond that dark sectors and by extension rails needs more work to make it worthwhile. Like I dont know...adding upkeep? Thus preventing alliances from just throwing rails willy nilly everywhere. The more rails you deploy the more upkeep costs. I'd use credits just to keep it simple. Thus providing a point to taxing. Tax just enough to cover upkeep or tax more to create a war chest.

bonuses for planet control/section controls(inner system, outersystem) like 1% off foundry forging time or 1% off foundry credit costs. Small stuff to give some point other than bragging rights to taking control of sector rails.

A cooldown timer might work. Or maybe add on a credit/resource cost to putting up a contesting solar rail. Your first one is free. your second one costs something, your third a bit more and so and so forth thus creating an incentive to stop throwing up a rail every time it goes uncontested. Of course there's a timer so that eventually you roll back around to being able to throw up a free contest rail.

I could however see a way to "abuse" this in that allied alliances and clans could rotate their contest rails in order to avoid most if not all such escalating costs. E.g. Occupant A is fighting attacker B. B loses so occupant A stays. Attacker C then comes on with their rail and attacks Occupant A while B runs down their own timer. C loses and B comes back with another rail, slowly but surely wearing down A's ability to fight.

[Triburos]

They weren't added to the game to be another stagnating farming zone. They were added to the game to be fought over. You fight until no one wants to try to contest you any more.

 

That's complete bull and you know it.

Not another farming zone? Then pray tell; why are there ridiculous exp bonuses on each one, where people can rank a weapon from rank 10 to max in about 20 minutes?

If these were ANY other type of mission, no one would be complaining. But the fact is- these missions are here to help reduce the ranking grind.

But if we can't utilize them, then they might as well not even exist. Hence why it would have made more sense to have just made it a mark on the star chart for clans to gather resources from OTHER missions in the planet.

 

Nothing's stopping them from enjoying the sector. It was like this the first time. We had 24 hours while Eclipse and the others had their rails out first, while opposing clans spent those hours launching their own. This is the same amount of time as we had the first time.

 

How is this not obvious?

I'm truely hoping that's the case, as I can't hop on to check at the moment. I forget if you can enter whilst an opposing rail is being built or not. If so, then it's fine.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Triburos

[Blatantfool]

I don't think you understand the scale of the problem.

There's so many clans (80,000 or there abouts going by the last official figures I've seen), so few nodes, and the cost for launching a rail is so low (Anyone who's been here for more than a month can probably build one alone) that it's not a choice of pulling back to keep one or two rails secure, it's "there's no point in keeping any rails at all because it's so easy to lose them."

Like, even if Eclipse focused all the efforts of their 4k man alliance on one single node, they're going to run up to the problem of how there's no real point since like clockwork it will be contested by anyone with a rail, which will be everyone, with everyone getting just 24 hours of access to that node as an actual dark sector, rather than as a tower sabotage mission.

 

 *Citation needed.

 

 If Eclipse wasn't spread thin worrying about 8 different territories and instead only had two they'd have a much easier time within their Alliance both repairing and focusing down enemy attackers. This would make them significantly harder to beat as they got better at running Rail missions.

 

 Eventually you can simply become an unattractive target to attack. People will eventually start to feel their Rail would be better spent on another Alliance. Only the ballsy Alliances who consider themselves your Equal will come knocking then.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Nothing's stopping them from enjoying the sector. It was like this the first time. We had 24 hours while Eclipse and the others had their rails out first, while opposing clans spent those hours launching their own. This is the same amount of time as we had the first time.

 

How is this not obvious?

People tend to want to be able to farm the new nodes with their awesome XP and resource rewards for more than a single day, you know? I know I do.

[LostAlone]

They weren't added to the game to be another stagnating farming zone. They were added to the game to be fought over. You fight until no one wants to try to contest you any more.

 

Which is the whole problem here. 

 

Whoever has the greatest tolerance for grinding for negligible reward gets to keep the rails. It's certainly not a stagnant farm zone, because you sure as hell can't farm them. They're just pure, meaningless grind. Literally meaningless. Only once every single clan in the game gives up can anyone play with any new toys. 

 

Yay!

[Vlayde]

I don't think you understand the scale of the problem.

There's so many clans (80,000 or there abouts going by the last official figures I've seen), so few nodes, and the cost for launching a rail is so low (Anyone who's been here for more than a month can probably build one alone) that it's not a choice of pulling back to keep one or two rails secure, it's "there's no point in keeping any rails at all because it's so easy to lose them."

Like, even if Eclipse focused all the efforts of their 4k man alliance on one single node, they're going to run up to the problem of how there's no real point since like clockwork it will be contested by anyone with a rail, which will be everyone, with everyone getting just 24 hours of access to that node as an actual dark sector, rather than as a tower sabotage mission.

If Eclipse decided to focus their entire alliance on 1 rail, they would be able to destroy the rail within a few hours and enjoy another 24 hours of Dark Sector bonuses. 24 hours is more than enough to enjoy those bonuses considering how huge they are. 

[Blatantfool]

That's complete bull and you know it.

Not another farming zone? Then pray tell; why are there ridiculous exp bonuses on each one, where people can rank a weapon from rank 10 to max in about 20 minutes?

If these were ANY other type of mission, no one would be complaining. But the fact is- these missions are here to help reduce the ranking grind.

But if we can't utilize them, then they might as well not even exist. Hence why it would have made more sense to have just made it a mark on the star chart for clans to gather resources from OTHER missions in the planet.

 

 It isn't crap. They didn't introduce Dark Sectors with "THE NEWEST WAY TO FARM XP!" they introduced it as what it is. A Territory war zone.

 

 The high XP, material and credit gains are simply what is required to make a node worth fighting over.

 

 They were not meant to be peaceful, quite farming spots were nothing really happens - like Kappa.

[DJSmash]

Considering how few Dark Sectors are compared to the amount of Clans/Alliances that want them, add the fact Eclipse decided to grab 8 of them, what did you expect was going to happen? 

 

Time to choose between keeping 1-2 of those rails or enjoy doing non-stop contested runs to try and keep all of your rails who will be constantly contested.

 

Well, this is kinda odd. From what i read & understand..it doesn't matter if you 1 Solar Rail or 2 or 3 or 10. The fact with the current Solar rail system, you will get attacked again and again and again. It is an endless cycle of Rail smashing.

[Bakim0n0]

Lay off the melodrama. Any saltier and you'd be boardwalk fries.

I'm pretty salty because being able to run infested D again made me stupidly happy and then I log in after work to see 0 credit reward missions all over the place.

OG Xini kept me playing and paying and when they changed that I went from being fairly active to having near zero interest in WF; and seeing it flop from the most enjoyable experience in the game to half broken, seriously dis-interesting, pointless no pay missions turned all the good feels I had into intensely negative ones.

P.S. Yes, I know there's still ODD, but I've absolutely hated the key system from word go and the idea of farming stuff I dislike to farm a bastardized version of something I *DO* like is not at all fun.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Bakim0n0

[Worira]

 Eventually you can simply become an unattractive target to attack. People will eventually start to feel their Rail would be better spent on another Alliance. Only the ballsy Alliances who consider themselves your Equal will come knocking then.

 

Or anyone who feels like it. Since, again, rails have basically no cost.

[Tograk]

That is complete crap. I don't know why you even think that.

And it isn't just two Alliances fighting anyway. Anyone who doesn't like either Alliance can help destroy that Alliance's tower.

 

Eh... I know that Americans are not so smart but please... Have u ever read any historical book? About defending towers/castles. USA is new country so u cant be compared to old European countries which knew much more about strategy and sieges.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Tograk

[Blatantfool]

Which is the whole problem here. 

 

Whoever has the greatest tolerance for grinding for negligible reward gets to keep the rails. It's certainly not a stagnant farm zone, because you sure as hell can't farm them. They're just pure, meaningless grind. Literally meaningless. Only once every single clan in the game gives up can anyone play with any new toys. 

 

Yay!

 

 Yeah. Rail sabotage missions themselves need to become far more valuable than they are now to start.

[Vlayde]

Well, this is kinda odd. From what i read & understand..it doesn't matter if you 1 Solar Rail or 2 or 3 or 10. The fact with the current Solar rail system, you will get attacked again and again and again. It is an endless cycle of Rail smashing.

Except with keeping 1-2 rails you will still be able to enjoy the 24 hour grace period after winning. Having 8 rails gives you no time to take a break.

[Blatantfool]

I'm pretty salty because being able to run infested D again made me stupidly happy and then I log in after work to see 0 credit reward missions all over the place.

OG Xini kept me playing and paying and when they changed that I went from being fairly active to having near zero interest in WF; and seeing it flop from the most enjoyable experience in the game to half broken, seriously dis-interesting, pointless no pay missions turned all the good feels I had into intensely negative ones.

 

 This I understand. But still, that was a tad too far on the melodrama side. You've been around a long time. You know nothing launches picture perfect. Better to use the frustration as fuel for feedback on fixing it than being one of the hundred odd guys saying "I'll uninstall" or "I wont pay" without trying to actually express their needs, you know?

 

Or anyone who feels like it. Since, again, rails have basically no cost.

 

 I doubt the way costs work now will stay this way for long. I think we all know that this is due for some balance patching in more ways than one.

 

Eh... I know that Americans are not so smart but please... Have u even read any historical book? About defending towers/castles. USA is new country so u cant be compared to old European countries which knew much more about strategy and sieges.

 

  Don't talk out of your &#!.

[Bakim0n0]

 Yeah. Rail sabotage missions themselves need to become far more valuable than they are now to start.

Which DE was hoping to manage with the tax system... but the player base wants zero taxes and alliances that don't do that get constant crap and called greedy (by players unwilling to share any of the benefits they get from the nodes).

So instead, we get a ton of missions that are literally far less rewarding than running the very first mission in the game.

[Ketec]

if it didnt happen that fast, 90% of the clans/alliances would NEVER get a chance.

There is only very limited number of sectors.

 

Allow 1 clan to hold it for 1 week and they have insane amount of resources. They can just offer battle bay so high that attackers get annihilated in hours.

 

 

 

What it needs  tho is  up to 1 hour random cooldown - the attack option would come available in 10, 20 or even 35 minutes.

This way people who are spam clicking as soon as time hits 0 or one side goes to 0 and blows up cant predict when to click.

Gives more chance for diff clans to try it.

 

Limit max active/deployed rails to 2.

 

Attacker will need a cooldown - 24h before they can attack anything again.

 

Player set battle pay will never work - the amount of credits needed is insane.

Lets say u get 20000 playthroughs in 24h.

Reasonable battle pay for mid/high sector  would be 10k.

that is 200m credits to pay out.

No amount of tax can compensate that.

Also increasing tax means less people playing and people getting less credits they want to get back.

Its not sustainable and just wont work.

 

System would have to provide at least 50% of what ever owner sets the battle pay to.

So at 10k - 5k is paid by the game itself.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Ketec

[Tograk]

 

  Don't talk out of your &#!.

 

Only dumb people cant reply to someone who speaks wisely.

[Vlayde]

Eh... I know that Americans are not so smart but please... Have u ever read any historical book? About defending towers/castles. USA is new country so u cant be compared to old European countries which knew much more about strategy and sieges.

 

Is this a troll?

[Blatantfool]

Which DE was hoping to manage with the tax system... but the player base wants zero taxes and alliances that don't do that get constant crap and called greedy (by players unwilling to share any of the benefits they get from the nodes).

So instead, we get a ton of missions that are literally far less rewarding than running the very first mission in the game.

 

 Well, I wasn't really talking about the Credit angle.

 

 For one, I kinda think the Tenno enemies should be more common and generally a bit stronger - while leaving the Moas and Drones far less common to boot.

 

 And then load up the Tenno with an array of tasty Uncommon or Rare mods, stances included, so that killing them can reap valuable as hell rewards.

 

 Things like that.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

*Citation needed.

15k Rubedo, 15k plastids, 25 control modules, 25 gallium, 500k credits going by wiki, and my memory of the solar rail construction bears this out.

Going by my resource stockpiles alone, I have enough for 2.5 solar rails. This is me as a single player here.

Basically, any clan of people who've been here more than a month or so can easily afford a rail.

What this means is the barriers for entry to the dark sector territory game are extremely, extremely low. Just about anyone can participate.

Problem being that anyone being able to jump in means that nodes will basically be permanently contested simply because the barriers for entry are so low.

 

If Eclipse wasn't spread thin worrying about 8 different territories and instead only had two they'd have a much easier time within their Alliance both repairing and focusing down enemy attackers. This would make them significantly harder to beat as they got better at running Rail missions.

 

 Eventually you can simply become an unattractive target to attack. People will eventually start to feel their Rail would be better spent on another Alliance. Only the ballsy Alliances who consider themselves your Equal will come knocking then.

Eclipse is actually extremely crazy good at missions like this. One guy was doing single tower sabotage runs at Sinai in 45 seconds.

The problem isn't "Eclipse is spread too thin". If their warlords have any sense at all they'll pull back to a handful of high value nodes like Ceres. Or run like a rolling wave of destruction through each node while focusing the full force of their 4k man grinding engine on one node at a time like whack-a-mole. The problem is that people will deploy rails just because they can - because rails represent pocket change.

The fundamental problem is that even if Eclipse crushes a contesting tower and only takes 2% damage or something, at most the community only has access to that dark sector for 24 hours because the costs of a tower are so low that anyone and their brother can afford to contest.

[LostAlone]

 Yeah. Rail sabotage missions themselves need to become far more valuable than they are now to start.

 

Yes. They do. Any ideas how that'll happen? Because from where I'm standing it doesn't seem likely.

 

Honestly, if those missions were just fun then this wouldn't be an issue. If there was some variety there, and with some reasonable amount of reward from inside the mission, as opposed to just from the Clan then there wouldn't be much of a problem. It wouldn't be as awesome as Dark Zones but it would mean that regular players would see it as something that's worth their time. 

 

As it stands it would in fact be radically more productive for everyone if the player base at large drew the winner of every contest out of a hat, all picked that one side, ran one mission each for zero reward and ended the attack that way. Maybe that's not in the spirit of the system, but it would be in the player bases interests to do so - To keep attacks to the shortest possible time and the Dark Zones available. 

 

But alas. We must squabble over them, and as people get more and more bored of the rail wars the longer attacks will take and the less of the dark zones we'll be able to enjoy.