Ash Is Useless

[SquirmyBurrito]

DE should really switch Loki and Ash as starter frames.

 

No they shouldn't and I've explained why in the majority of the 'Loki shouldn't be a starter/Ash should replace Loki/Ash should be a starter' threads.

 

Loki doesn't require any special mods. He benefits from mods, and so does every other frame in the game. He can be used just fine without them, especially in newbie-tier content.

[Arlayn]

Here's a quick fix:

 

 

 

Bladestorm should be fast and blind everyone and make ones he cuts up bleed if they live.

 

Bladestorm is already awesome. If your in deep meleeing enemy after enemy in a group of Infested, and a disruptor is about to hit you from behind mid combo, or your cornered. Just use Bladestorm, and you will complete dodge the disruption arm as it comes at you. Infact it makes you untouchable. I do that when I fight infested. I run in. Beat up enemies. Watch the disruptor, and as its arm comes at me. BLADESTORM, and poof I am escape out of its arm's reach.

[SirAuron]

Bladestorm is already awesome. If your in deep meleeing enemy after enemy in a group of Infested, and a disruptor is about to hit you from behind mid combo, or your cornered. Just use Bladestorm, and you will complete dodge the disruption arm as it comes at you. Infact it makes you untouchable. I do that when I fight infested. I run in. Beat up enemies. Watch the disruptor, and as its arm comes at me. BLADESTORM, and poof I am escape out of its arm's reach.

Are you trying to convince me of something? did not create this thread. And yes, bleed would be great and an added insurance in defense while using this would also be great.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Bladestorm is already awesome. If your in deep meleeing enemy after enemy in a group of Infested, and a disruptor is about to hit you from behind mid combo, or your cornered. Just use Bladestorm, and you will complete dodge the disruption arm as it comes at you. Infact it makes you untouchable. I do that when I fight infested. I run in. Beat up enemies. Watch the disruptor, and as its arm comes at me. BLADESTORM, and poof I am escape out of its arm's reach.

 

What if you're not playing melee focused? Bladestorm suddenly downgrades to a panic button.

[Arlayn]

Are you trying to convince me of something? did not create this thread. And yes, bleed would be great and an added insurance in defense while using this would also be great.

People say bleed on everything is great only because grineer murder us with it all the time, but why? Why would you want bleed on a Tenno that has nothing to do with the concept. We should just make a bleeding warframe that specializes in this task instead of adding it to existing warframe.

[rogueweapon]

yes , yes he is useless

[SirAuron]

People say bleed on everything is great only because grineer murder us with it all the time, but why? Why would you want bleed on a Tenno that has nothing to do with the concept. We should just make a bleeding warframe that specializes in this task instead of adding it to existing warframe.

He is perfect for it. His shurikens are very fast, sharp and spin very fast. His blades can do slash damage which causes bleed and since he has his own blades, it makes perfect sense that his blades cause bleeding. Don't see any other warframe with powers that use sharp objects except Excalibur. Well, his ultimate can use a bleeding effect as well.

 

It simply makes sense that sharp object cause bleeding so it makes sense for Bladestorm to cause bleeding like Miasma causes poison. And teleport can use a change to make it more viable and fun like quickly stabbing someone you teleport to and causing that person to bleed if you hold down teleport and not if you don't while teleporting.

 

Well, melee in general could use more bleeding with crits making bleed outs happen more often.

 

Might as well make that bleed more effective and make more use out of this outside simply shooting stuff. many games have skills that cause bleeding and add bleeding to some skills. I don't see why this warframe cannot have bleeding because Ninjas make people bleed with their sharp objects and the same can go for melee and this warframe.

 

it would make things more interesting.

[HasuShiro]

Why do people bother posting threads that just antagonize or annoy fans of various warframes? Shouldn't we be seeing more threads about how to effectively use each frame instead of just calling all of them useless because you don't personally enjoy or know how to use them?

So you're saying that having a bad frame that in truth needs a buff should not be mentioned to DE? We should be stuck with the same "mistake" for the rest of our lives?

Threads like these lets the devs know about things the player base does not agree to, and that they should (or could) change. If they do not realise what we want, they can't give us what we want, as warframe players. Threads like these are essential.

---

And for the annoyed fans, they are probably either new, have two-three frames or do nothing in this game but run earth missions "because it looks cool"...

Honestly, I think those people shouldn't give their opinion about (most) game mechanics, considering they barely comprehend the function nor the consequences.

If you like me own all the warframes, you can easily distinguish their differences.

Edited April 24, 2014 by ShiroiHasu

[j0shh4nxd]

  

The issue with a team wide AoE smokescreen is that it is completely involuntary, atleast if it was a cloud of smoke then other players have some say in it. Also, say you are relying on team aggro say when defending an objective or a rescue target, team wide involuntary invisibility might not be beneficial.

Also changing how smokescreen functions would annoy many ash users.

On the shuriken, I remember seeing a post that suggested that ash threw ninja tacks on the ground infront of him. Maybe that could double as an enemy debuff and team buff? Have it damage enemies that step on it, then it could have any debuff (slow, bleed proc, stun, stagger etc), or you could even have explosive tacks with blast proc. For team buff (to incorporate your ide), you could make it so that the tacks stick on warframes feet, giving you the ability to "stick" to walls or extended wall run?

With regards to bladestorm, the stealth bonus would be lovely. But some sort off debuff on marked enemies would also be welcome!

 

For smokescreen it isn't invisibility...I was more going for lower visibility for enemies...this prevents the problem with like what you said aggro...the enemies are completely aware that you are still there but have a harder time detecting you and such

And yes I'm aware that it would annoy Ash users...but that is expected with any kind of change

[j0shh4nxd]

teleport= free aim teleport

Why is this change necessary?

 

Does it really matter if it's necessary? It's just what I'd like to see in the skill...as of now the skill isn't the easiest thing to target but making it free teleport would extremely help Ash in terms of mobility and just having an assassin like feel...Also because Ash is a melee oriented frame it would also help him close the distance on enemies much more easily...It isn't necessary it would just be cool to see happen

[Dataz]

What's the point to compare two different warframes? omg some people are really crazy. Just choose the better one and the problem is solved. Whatever you say, Nova is best damage dealer atm.

[RealPandemonium]

We should address this game's bigger problems (Grineer armor scaling, Nova and the radial nuke shenanigans, weapon damage scaling) before we take a hack saw to Ash.  Only after the underlying systems are fixed will we be able to tweak the less popular frames without destroying their identity and creating further balance issues.  

 

 

Why do people bother posting threads that just antagonize or annoy fans of various warframes? Shouldn't we be seeing more threads about how to effectively use each frame instead of just calling all of them useless because you don't personally enjoy or know how to use them?

 

Many players are lazy and ignorant of how the game works so they try frames without forma or potato and when they see it doesn't give them an easy win they go on the forums to complain that it's useless.  At the same time, every frame can use more polish and tweaking, so these threads are useful and necessary. I definitely feel you though.  

Edited April 24, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[SoanoS]

Hmm. I would say Ash is not completely useless. He has its uses. He is great for solo, and can be very handy in a support role, taking out hard to reach enemies.

 

But am I the only one who gets his Blade Storm interrupted after 2 or 3 targets, even in the middle of a large group of enemies? Sometimes I can make it continue by looking into the direction of an enemy and shooting/meleeing it but if I don't, it ends there and then. Ash has had his Blade Storm broken and bugged out before in so many ways it is not even funny, and I fear it is broken again. At least for me. This seriously reduces my motivation to use him because the rest of his abilities, while most of them (1 and 2) are nice, having a (yet again) non-working fourth power kind of kills it for me.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Does it really matter if it's necessary? It's just what I'd like to see in the skill...as of now the skill isn't the easiest thing to target but making it free teleport would extremely help Ash in terms of mobility and just having an assassin like feel...Also because Ash is a melee oriented frame it would also help him close the distance on enemies much more easily...It isn't necessary it would just be cool to see happen

 

Basing an argument off of 'feels' is not the way to convince anyone.

Teleport is just as easy to aim as every other target-lock based ability. If you can aim Blade Storm, you could have teleported. Same goes for switch teleport. Maybe Switch Teleport should be made free-aim, just because I think it'd be cool.

 

Teleport already helps him close the distance and it staggers the target allowing you to start attacking it without having to worry about it retaliating. 

 

If it isn't necessary, I don't support the change. Teleport works fine as is.

[RealPandemonium]

Basing an argument off of 'feels' is not the way to convince anyone.

Teleport is just as easy to aim as every other target-lock based ability. If you can aim Blade Storm, you could have teleported. Same goes for switch teleport. Maybe Switch Teleport should be made free-aim, just because I think it'd be cool.

 

Teleport already helps him close the distance and it staggers the target allowing you to start attacking it without having to worry about it retaliating. 

 

If it isn't necessary, I don't support the change. Teleport works fine as is.

What needs to be addressed is the lower polling rate for semi-auto inputs with lower fps.  If some sort of workaround could be implemented it would greatly benefit those who have older or less compatible computers

[SquirmyBurrito]

What needs to be addressed is the lower polling rate for semi-auto inputs with lower fps.  If some sort of workaround could be implemented it would greatly benefit those who have older or less compatible computers

 

That's definitely true.

[SirAuron]

What needs to be addressed is the lower polling rate for semi-auto inputs with lower fps.  If some sort of workaround could be implemented it would greatly benefit those who have older or less compatible computers

So the same guy that designs warframe powers should address this? Is that in his job description?

[ThePresident777]

I find Ash useful for No Shields + Energy Drain Nightmare Mode because of his higher HP and because of his invisibility costing less than Loki's.  Certains mods make this work better(forgot their names, rage is one, IIRC).  Unfortunately, I can't play the nightmare mode challenge I want when I want because RNG is God and I'm just a mere customer.  So, Ash just sits in my inventory collecting dust.

 

For general play, I find Ash underwhelming.  He just doesn't do anything in a spectacular manner or to a spectacular degree.  He's nerfed by design and that bores me.  I like nuke spam and fast movement.  Ash doesn't do that very well.  He doesn't do anything very well except in No Shields + Energy Drain Nightmare Mode with the right mods.  But that is unreliable so I don't waste time on it.

 

If Blade Storm were to do damage from a damage pool and run down the target list as each target dies until the damage pool was exhausted, as many of us have suggested many many times for months, then Ash would be both significantly different from Loki, do something in a spectacular manner, and live up to his image as the Assassin Warframe.

Edited April 24, 2014 by ThePresident777

[j0shh4nxd]

Basing an argument off of 'feels' is not the way to convince anyone.

Teleport is just as easy to aim as every other target-lock based ability. If you can aim Blade Storm, you could have teleported. Same goes for switch teleport. Maybe Switch Teleport should be made free-aim, just because I think it'd be cool.

the same goes for you my friend...just because you think it'd be cool is no way to convince anyone...like I said previously, it's what I want..never did I say I was pushing for these changes...and again it would still help ash for mobility purposes and closing the gap to enemies to melee

[(PSN)devinhot]

1. The enemy stagger lasts longer than the flip. The flip is actually rather quick now, and is not much different than Loki's delay post swap.

2. Two abilities>One ability is common sense, do not use that as an argument for it being better than said one ability.

3. Why should it be free-aim?

Because who wouldnt want to teleport everywhere? Its very hard to target w/ controllers... 

[Rakosta_Kai]

I don't like to compare Ash and Loki as they are very different frames.

Ash is a much simpler frame in design and function compared to Loki because he's really only designed for one job and for an exotic mission type.

 

Ash is a DPS frame designed for stealth.

Loki is a DPS/ Distraction Tank who can stealth.

 

Just about every frame in the game serves multiple roles in the Trinity. Ash is one of the few that actually doesn't.

 

There should be something to balance that fact in his dps skills, but there isn't.

Asking DE for damage boosts are requests that either go unanswered or have unintended results.

As such, I would ask that he get an additional role.

 

Move Teleport into SS so that Ash can teleport (for Teleport's current cost) while SS is active. Make Teleport less finicky. Target Obstructed errors are rife with Teleport.

 

Give Teleport's slot to a utility skill that's decent... It needs to be a very decent utility skill at this point as it will need to define Ash's alternate Trinity role.

 

Likewise, Shuriken needs to be re-vamped to apply a status that isn't necessarily damage based ( I like Blind as it's in keeping with the Theme of the frame).

 

Lastly, Bladestorm needs to be re-done or removed. As much as I love seeing it and using it, it breaks every other patch/update.

That's a clear sign it needs to go back to the lab...

Is it cool? Yes, quite... But I'd rather have something that I know will work and will leave me in a playable state consistently.

[next0]

in my opinion  a good buff for ash is make he s ulti a 100% kill  instead of 2000 damage so we can finally see some ash in end game

[SirAuron]

Loki is a DPS/ Distraction Tank who can stealth.

What DPS? Does the cloak boost the crit damage he does?

[RyojinOrion]

I was just thinking about making a thread about Ash, but since there is one here, I'll put my thoughts here.

 

DISCLAIMER: I have not read any posts in this thread, so the ideas here may be repeats. Now, on to the post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I started playing Warframe as Excalibur, like many others, but it had been a tough choice between him and Loki. In the end, I went for balance and damage. After ranking up my starting gear, I started thinking about getting other frames. My first thought was Loki, but since that was the main frame of the friend I was playing with, and I didn't think a non-damage frame would do well in the game at the time, I went with Ash, since I saw him as a sort of mix between Excal and Loki. I loved it. He became my favorite frame. Then I hit the difficult content. While before I was constantly outshining my entire team of friends, now I was finding myself overshadowed by their abilities. I have barely touched Ash in months, since I got Loki. This was extremely disappointing, as I found Ash to be quite fun, not to mention he is my favorite looking frame. His abilities need some work. Here's just one way I could envision Ash:

 

 

 

Shuriken - To start, this could be improved greatly by adding in more shurikens at higher mod levels. This may sound a bit much, but I was thinking upping it to 8 at max level. Why 8? Think about it... One shuriken between each finger (and thumb) on both hands. Even if nothing else about the ability changes, it would still be quite an improvement.

 

Smokescreen - Increase the radius and duration of the stun from this ability, and have it scale with the mod level. Even if the invisibility duration remains the same length, the increased CC would make it not feel completely overshadowed by Loki's Invisibility. Perhaps add in a chance for a radiation proc as well?

 

Teleport - Get rid of this completely. Replace it with something a bit less useless. Perhaps something like Caltrops? Drops spikes in an area around the frame. These spikes do a relatively small amount of damage, but reduce the speed of any enemy that comes into contact with them. Upgrading the mod level would increase the area of the drops and the duration of the slow.

 

Bladestorm - This is easily the coolest looking ability in the game, IMO... But it is too slow. There are a few ways I could see this being handled. First way, one could simply just increase the speed of the animation so it doesn't take forever to complete. Second way, have the frame not teleport around, but instead have shadow clones pop up where Ash would have gone instead. Third way, completely rewrite the ability into something else altogether. (No real ideas on what to rework it into, though. If I think of something, I may edit this post.) The first two ways kinda kill the personal defensive element of the ability, but increases team usefulness, as Ash is back in the game shooting much sooner. The third way would lose the awesome attack animation, but it could potentially be replaced with an ability that is much more useful to the team.

 

 

 

I've got no problem with Ash's stats at all, outside of the thought that maybe he should have a little more armor than Loki, since he is more direct-combat oriented than Loki. It is just the abilities that are making Ash seem like the most useless frame in the game to the majority of players. I can't even remember the last time I saw an Ash in any mid-tier or higher content. This is highly disappointing, as Ash was my favorite frame for a long time.

[SquirmyBurrito]

the same goes for you my friend...just because you think it'd be cool is no way to convince anyone...like I said previously, it's what I want..never did I say I was pushing for these changes...and again it would still help ash for mobility purposes and closing the gap to enemies to melee

 

Are you incapable of understanding sarcasm? That bit about ST being free-aim was sarcasm.

 

Teleport already 'help ash for mobility purposes and closing the gap to enemies to melee'.

 

Because who wouldnt want to teleport everywhere? Its very hard to target w/ controllers... 

 

The change is unnecessary. That's a controller issue, not an Ash issue.

Edited April 24, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito