Glorious Battle And Victory In The Name Of Your Clan [Dark Sector Megathread]

[LazyTheGypsy]

No I just take the words of people with an agenda with a pinch of salt

"A pinch of salt" does not apply when the very mechanics of a game that can not be argued over how they work. I have no such agenda you may think I have, and there were even others trying to explain to you the exact same thing that I did.

 

*Edit*

I have had this is normal missions too,  not invasion, in the past so it used to be the case.

In a normal mission if you do not get the completion credits if you fail to reach extraction with your team.

 

It does NOT work that way with Conflicts, Invasions, or Alerts.

Edited April 28, 2014 by LazyTheGypsy

[TeliaRS643]

Yeah, I gotta agree that complaining won't do much, so let's talk math and logic.  I like logic.  Logic is how the world works (except in government operations).  Logic tells me that if you have a rail that gives about 25k battlepays for three days at a time (two for armistice, one for rail deployment), making a run every five minutes for an hour, you got about 300k credits in the bank (which by the way is delicious and feeds my transmutation/gambling addictions).  Let's assume that, averaging out high and low periods and people going for the long haul, there's probably around two cells completing these missions every five minutes (Two groups of four tenno.)  And... well, that doesn't count boosters either.  Let's assume that on average, one out of every four tenno is running one when going for cash on these dark sectors.

Now, knowing this, in the times that said rail is uncontested, it makes about 216 million credits on its off time, give or take.
(25k x 12 runs x 24 hours x 3 days x 8 tenno x 1.25 for boosters)
Of course, this is all based on a lot of assumption, but it could be said that pulling a 25% tax leaves Eclipse with a lot of battlepay to dish out.  However, a rail has a limited time to be contested, a limited amount of runs, etc.  Assuming that a rail has HP of 75k and every person running drains 10HP, it takes 7500 tenno to completely demolish a rail.  As stated before, this could be done in under an hour, so the main factor is 'battlepay'.  How much is Eclipse willing to dish out?  If they're putting -all- of their money from tributes into their battlepays for defending their Ceres rail every three days, they should be pumping out... around 7200 credits, given that formula.  However, if they're attacking another rail, they still need to account for money to defend their Ceres defense rail, that would be split.

Now, I've seen them give battlepays around and higher than that number when in conflict... this could be explained by a number of things - my formula's lowballing their gains way too much, or they're pooling their own assets/assets from other rails into those battlepays, or they're only running battlepays for a smaller amount of tenno than 7500... only running half and letting the time run out would give them ~15k battlepays, but that doesn't account as to Eclipse members running for Eclipse - taking their own battlepays from their vault.  It's tricky business and dark sectors have a lot of outside factors involved, and I didn't even mention repair costs - a 'stable' dark sector is a pipe dream without the sort of aggressive behavior Eclipse is showing with taxation and battlepays.

Behavior's a funny thing - in some ways, it has more unknowns than pure numbers can dish out.  In others, it has a simpler cause-effect chain than a mathematical equation.  A higher tax rail is going to immediately be frowned upon than a rail with no tax.  A higher bribe will be taken than none at all.  These are both obvious, but also obscure each other.  This is the problem we have with dark sectors - we want taxless rails, but a clan/alliance running taxless rails only will not be able to outlast a taxing rail with battlepays.  However, there comes a threshold when one power holds enough of the cards that the others in the community take notice.  Eclipse has a pretty strong logic/financial/business game, but I feel as though they're losing the PR front.  Taxing 25% across the board is a very formal and impersonal way to tax - in doing so, Eclipse is making themselves out to be a big, greedy (corporate) monster than a friendly power trying to stabilize the rails.  This is why forum threads like these get made.  People take notice, though like staring down a corporate monster, the options people that want to fight for the little guy are limited and have slimmer chances of success than what weight the bigger power can throw around.  To put it in as few words as possible - they don't know what to do.  It'd take either a serious time or financial sacrifice to fight the bigger power - without guarantee of success.  It's not a lack of will of the 'whiners'- it's a lack of solidarity.  Joe Tenno can devote all twelve hours of a marathon conflict run (assuming 1 every 5 minutes) and do only around a tenth of the damage required to take a rail down... And if we had ten Joe Tennos?  Let's remind ourselves that a rail can be taken down in less than an hour with a large force speedrunning, a large force of the online population of Eclipse when the conflict occurs + those drawn in by battlepays.  It's not hopeless, but it is, at the very least, daunting.

However, as much as Eclipse can be the biggest jerk in the world and take everything and shove it all at 25% tribute with only their alliance members getting 99% of the mission rewards under the reasoning of 'they need it for the battlepays and repairs', they can play both sides of the coin.  I see them in a number of locations, and going for other high-paying DS nodes... in short, they have assets.  Assets beyond what most clans and alliances have.  I find it pretty amazing that they're winning the game so soon (Dark sectors only came out a little more than a couple weeks ago), though I think they could do better.  I agree that you need to take some taxes, but allowing the people options under your rails would raise public appeal.  Personally, I think they could go ~35-40% taxes on some of the lower-ranking rails.  Honestly, if you're going to those, you're going there for the resources and experience anyways, right?  The higher ones... people go there for the credits.  Having one rail, either on Ceres or Pluto (preferably the defense on Pluto because it seems to be the fastest, and you're attacking a taxless rail) at 0% tax would disarm a lot of arguments against Eclipse.  In a way, any money spent on that rail would be, quite literally, 'buying support and public opinion'.  We'd -want- to support that rail, and any losses incurred could be recouped in their many other rails.

Is this a plead to Eclipse?  Yeah.  Yes it is.  Because like I said earlier, people don't know how to handle something as big as Eclipse, and frankly, neither do I.  I merely hope the tenno in charge see the logic in my statements, because if there's anyone that can hold a taxless rail right now, it's Eclipse.  Personally, I'm torn between fighting for either side, or abstaining completely outside of this argument.  I, and my wallet, thank Shadows of Vengeance for showing us what a taxless end-system rail can do, but being a taxless rail, the price to hold the location is likely too high for one small power to pay.  You're not wrong, but I have a hard time fighting for you when higher powers are in play, because as much effort as I -can- put into defending you doesn't lessen the financial strain of holding Dark Sectors against something as big as Eclipse.  To Eclipse, I can't say 'for shame for attacking a taxless rail' because if you didn't, someone else would have, and the cycle thus repeats.  In fact, I'm glad of your attack, because it allows you to continue to uphold SoV's example and defend it against other clans/alliances, and if you do, I'm certain you will gain a lot of support in any conflicts to come in not just that rail, but all of them to some degree.  If not... all I can really say is 'expect backlash'.  There gets to be a point where no amount of battlepay will save your rail from people having it out for you.  Tenno strive for balance, after all.  Either way, I can't say I'd fight for you either with a clear conscience - kicking SoV and a taxless rail that I've enjoyed a lot already would make me question both my logic and my sanity.

tl;dr: Long live taxless solar rails

[LeMoog]

"A pinch of salt" does not apply when the very mechanics of a game that can not be argued over how they work. I have no such agenda you may think I have, and there were even others trying to explain to you the exact same thing that I did.

 

*Edit*

 

In a normal mission if you do not get the completion credits if you fail to reach extraction with your team.

 

It does NOT work that way with Conflicts, Invasions, or Alerts.

"Mechanics of the game" you are assuming that the game is complete and bug free, you might want to have a look in the support threads the mechanics are not always being applied correctly now are they?

[TsukiSui]

"Mechanics of the game" you are assuming that the game is complete and bug free, you might want to have a look in the support threads the mechanics are not always being applied correctly now are they?

So because the door stuck your credit reward is no longer functional?

[LazyTheGypsy]

"Mechanics of the game" you are assuming that the game is complete and bug free, you might want to have a look in the support threads the mechanics are not always being applied correctly now are they?

It appears you are implying that if it was in fact a "bug" you are basing your entire reasoning for being anti-eclipse on a "bug" that would in no way be Eclipse's fault.

 

I hope this makes you realize that you should test a few times instead of instantly coming up with a completely irrelevant conclusion of "Eclipse has told it's members to screw me over"

[Babellon]

It appears you are implying that if it was in fact a "bug" you are basing your entire reasoning for being anti-eclipse on a "bug" that would in no way be Eclipse's fault.

 

I hope this makes you realize that you should test a few times instead of instantly coming up with a completely irrelevant conclusion of "Eclipse has told it's members to screw me over"

sssshhh, you're gonna make his head hurt..

[ClaireWithBlankie]

It appears you are implying that if it was in fact a "bug" you are basing your entire reasoning for being anti-eclipse on a "bug" that would in no way be Eclipse's fault.

 

I hope this makes you realize that you should test a few times instead of instantly coming up with a completely irrelevant conclusion of "Eclipse has told it's members to screw me over"

 

^

This

[PhotriusPyrelus]

We'd -want- to support that rail, and any losses incurred could be recouped in their many other rails.

 

Nope.  Not at all.  F*** Eclipse.  They will have taken it from an already 0% Clan.  I would fight tooth and nail against them even supporting an attacker who promises 100% tax.  The only motivation Eclipse has to attak SoV's Pluto rail is unabashed greed.  So F*** them.

[TeliaRS643]

Nope.  Not at all.  F*** Eclipse.  They will have taken it from an already 0% Clan.  I would fight tooth and nail against them even supporting an attacker who promises 100% tax.  The only motivation Eclipse has to attak SoV's Pluto rail is unabashed greed.  So F*** them.

Thanks for taking that out of context.  That was if Eclipse put up a 0% tax solar rail themselves in place of SoV's and used the tributes from other rails to support it.

[fatpig84]

Nope.  Not at all.  F*** Eclipse.  They will have taken it from an already 0% Clan.  I would fight tooth and nail against them even supporting an attacker who promises 100% tax.  The only motivation Eclipse has to attak SoV's Pluto rail is unabashed greed.  So F*** them.

SOV had 3 others rails and 2 fell as well.

Does that mean the other guys are as greedy as Eclipse ? :/

[LazyTheGypsy]

SOV had 3 others rails and 2 fell as well.

Does that mean the other guys are as greedy as Eclipse ? :/

It isn't greed. It's wanting to noticed on the leaderboard.

 

That's all these Solar rails are, renamed leaderboards.

Edited April 28, 2014 by LazyTheGypsy

[fatpig84]

It isn't greed. It's wanting to noticed on the leaderboard.

 

That's all these Solar rails are, renamed leaderboards.

 

Then everyone can pretty much say the same way as that.

Just Eclipse wants to be on the leader board with 26 rails if possible.

 

 

But I am happy that Eclipse is going on the offensive.

This forces smaller clans to get absorbed into alliances so they can form a power bloc against Eclipse.

 

The best games is always a huge power bloc against an equally huge power bloc, with a 3rd power bloc in the mix :)

Edited April 28, 2014 by fatpig84

[Dualstar]

Nope, I hate their guts. Never did my clan or alliance try to take one of their rails and I still hate them.

 

-Eclipse lied about low taxes.

-Ecplise uses the 'Bait and Switch' tactic.

-People say that Eclipse is just fine because they're taxing to keep their rails in place, but other rails can maintain themselves with a tax lower than 20%.

Eclipse might have lied about the low taxes, but when they took 8 rails in the beginning they realised that holding these rails and having basically no income from them was not feasible.

 

The bait and switch may or may not have been due to them running out of credits. DE will sort this out in due time.

 

And maintaining one rail on community goodwill and the dedication of the clans players (Ghost Bear is the best example so far) is fine if you only own one rail. Last i checked, Eclipse holds 7 rails, and has people gunning for them at every opportunity.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Dualstar

[LeMoog]

It appears you are implying that if it was in fact a "bug" you are basing your entire reasoning for being anti-eclipse on a "bug" that would in no way be Eclipse's fault.

 

I hope this makes you realize that you should test a few times instead of instantly coming up with a completely irrelevant conclusion of "Eclipse has told it's members to screw me over"

 

No your logic is flawed, if they took advantage of a bug to give themselves an unfair advantage then on many online games that is called cheating 

[Neogeo]

Ceres is the last sanctuary safe from Eclipse evil claw. Those TW clan sure knew some shady way from confronting Eclipse. I'm sure Eclipse warlord would start wonder now why they never fast enough to attack the rail. They will probably whine about this on the forum to get this fix just like they did with the extend uptime to grab more $$$.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Neogeo

[MrAnticitizen]

Don't touch Pluto 0percent tax is awesome and those guys unlike you kept their promise.

Please provide any evidence of the Warlords of the Alliance agreeing to keep 0% tax.

[LeMoog]

Ceres is the last sanctuary safe from Eclipse evil claw. Those TW clan sure knew some shady way from confronting Eclipse. I'm sure Eclipse warlord would start wonder now why they never fast enough to attack the rail. They will probably whine about this on the forum to get this fix just like they did with the extend uptime to grab more $$$.

 

As to removing Eclipse it should only require the idealists to be hitting the same target, why not Cameria, Jupiter to free the Neural Sensor from their oppression, now speed running isnt going to hurt anyone I am game. 

 

It would be nice to hit this thread's trolls where it hurts so I will be waiting and maybe I will have company

[LazyTheGypsy]

No your logic is flawed, if they took advantage of a bug to give themselves an unfair advantage then on many online games that is called cheating 

I don't think they can take advantage of a "bug" they have no control over.

 

The best games is always a huge power bloc against an equally huge power bloc, with a 3rd power bloc in the mix :)

At least someone understands :P

 

 

 

Every clan will want their name and logo on every leaderboard they can. There's nothing wrong with that. Eclipse has their own strategy of having as many places on the leaderboard as they can handle, and every clan/alliance will have a tactic of their own. If a clan is content with their name being on it once, they'll make a strategy for that intent.

[Neogeo]

Oh BTW how is TW alliance manage to only charge 7% for two subsequent round without whining about rail repair? While Eclipse is constantly raising the rate and still keep complaint about the rail repair fee. Maybe it had something to do with them trying to take over too many sector?

[Squig]

No your logic is flawed, if they took advantage of a bug to give themselves an unfair advantage then on many online games that is called cheating 

As a member of eclipse since launch of the rails I assure you no bug or exploitation has been used. Merely a click war as everyone has commented.

[LeMoog]

I don't think they can take advantage of a "bug" they have no control over.

 

 

As I said there is precedence for having prizes won through exploitation of bugs being removed or a prize being given to those that didnt cheat.

 

 

If Eclipse knew about it and exploited it to give an unfair advantage then they deserve to be removed from every Dark Sector, I don't care what anyone else calls it I call that cheating and in my culture cheats should be shunned

[LeMoog]

As a member of eclipse since launch of the rails I assure you no bug or exploitation has been used. Merely a click war as everyone has commented.

 

I believe you are earnest and we are both stating our views based upon our experiences however as in real life often  good people get drawn into things because of unlucky associations.

[LazyTheGypsy]

As I said there is precedence for having prizes won through exploitation of bugs being removed or a prize being given to those that didnt cheat.

 

If Eclipse knew about it and exploited it to give an unfair advantage then they deserve to be removed from every Dark Sector, I don't care what anyone else calls it I call that cheating and in my culture cheats should be shunned

Unless DE comes out and says that a cheat was used, you can't use that as a basis for argument, since even you can not prove that Eclipse had anything to do with the "bug" you keep mentioning. I agree, however, if a cheat was in fact used, they should be held accountable for it.

 

As Squig said above, it is a click war to finish the mission as quickly as possible in order to receive the battlepay advertised. 

 

In order to explain further in an attempt to help you realize what happened, read the following;

If Eclipse set up a 20k credit battlepay for the next 3000 runs, the next 3000 non alliance players to finish the mission will get the 20k. After those 3000 runs, they have to set up a new battlepay. If you were to finish after those 3000 runs were completed, but ended up finishing during the grey zone where another set of 3000 tickets were still in the process being set up, you will receive 0 credits, as there was no battlepay assigned at the time you had finished.

 

This is hardly a "bug" and merely an oversight by DE, for lack of a better word.

[Squig]

-snip-

Pretty much what Lazy said. The best way to address it would be to allow the addition of more tickets as well as increasing battle pay without having to wait for the current tickets to all be consumed as it is now.

[Wrath_Of_Chrysalis]

WE CANNOT! They already own too many rails, Sechura is SACRED! This is the last straw for Eclipse. If they give ANY battle pay...they will have the entirety of The Mighty Violation Train and the Cutie Mark Crusaders after them. We have allies. WE WILL NOT LET ECLIPSE TAKE OUR SACRED NODE!