I Know Hes A Beginner Frame But Come On

[VoidWraith]

Looking through the fórums i notices something, when you get down to it Excalibro is pretty much worthless. In this thread i just want to talk about how painful is for me to see Excal, the face of warframe and my started frame, beign tosed aside, sadly whit good reason.

 

Way back when i started about a year ago, or more, The reason i choose Excalibur as my starter was because he was suposed to be a starter frame based around Swordplay and i liked that, also his design is freaking awesome. Now as i blasted trough grineer scum and greedy milk Corpus i noticed that the higher i got the weaker Exaclibur felt, and that feeling intensified when i crafted by first Warframe ever: Ember. Yeah she wasnt the thoughest in terms of raw defence but her damage was brutal, her design was hilariously awesome and being a pyromaniac myself well, you know we got along pretty well.

 

Now i have far more knowledge, i have crafted Ember (30), Valkyr (30), Oberón (27), Ash (regret it) and Saryn (17) and have taken all of them through all the solar system and endless events. Looking back at the frame that started all, Excalibur, his flaws are far more evident than ever: Hes painfully average, there is nothing where he can shine. Sure people consider that his flash is OP but in reality spamming a single skill doesnt hide his weaknesses. Lets compare him to other frames.

- Defences? Rhino is far more balanced than him whit great armor, shields and avove average health.

- Mobility? Volt, Nova, Loki, Valkyr all much reliable mobility than poor Excal.

- CC? Loki, #@*&$@ is all about CC. Mag too. and both are starter frames.

- Style? I will admit of all male frames Excalibur is probably the coolest, though not as much swag as Gentleman Oberón.

- Melee combat? going by stats alone Valkyr, Rhino and even Ash are better prepared for melee combat. Whit skills? just slap Loki on the lineup, and im not counting his invisibility.

 

As you can see Excalibur lacks in all áreas, even in melee combat where he is suposed to be the based around.

 

You know what was the final nail in Excal's Cryopod? Zephir. The Little girl can do everything Excalibur do and better. Melee, CC, Mobility everything Excalibur was suposed to be good at Zephyr can do and better, and all you have to do is join a clan where she was already researched and run some missions for Oxium, wihc is not that hard anyways. As for Excalibur you need to fight Amulas on Plunto, wich is not a friendly place for Squishy frames or unskilled players.

 

And dont bring me the excuse that "Hes a frame for beginners" because last tie i checked, i all good games whit choises the starter clases/characters may look S#&$ty at the start but hide a powerful forcé within. Need Examples?

 

- If you can name me any starter pokemon that is S#&$ compared to the ones you can caught later i will eat my shorts.

- Mario is the Super Smash world is considered a starter carácter, and sure he is pretty balanced whit average speed, strenght, mobility and some good powers, but thrust meonce Mastered Mario goes from Noob's choise to profossional nightmare.

- In Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones there is this Boy you meet in a village almost at the start of the game (sadly forgot his name, havent used my gameboy in eons) and hes one of this "Trainee" classes that pretty much sucks in any aspect of the Word but once you manage to lv him up (wich was pretty hard to keep him alive early :/) He has Access to some of the strongest clases in the game like Pirate, Hero or @(*()$ Beserker.

 

Possible solution:

I feel like Excalibur should be like that Guy (his name! think brain think!), a "Trainee" class that should be easy to use and may not be as strong early but once properly crafted he turns in every pro player's wet dream.

 

Stat wise i think he is all right but could use some tweaking in terms of Shields/Health or maybe a stamina buff? so he can get more out of the melee system.

 

Now his skills are all over the place, and im not talking about Slash Dashes dropping everywhere, i mean his skills are nothing expectacular and dont blend well together, as they should been a Melee oriented frame. 

 

- Slash Dash: Is pretty good actually. Though it needs to increase or at least keep the combo meter and its damage should scale whit your melee weapon and increased by said meter, this scaling beeing increased by power strenght (Base ability damage+Weapon damage%).

Heres the twist: Slash dash will have a 100% stat chance and the dominant element of your melee will be prob, so you can choose a Nikana to slash away through waves of infested, Pummel through Corpus shields whit an Impact Hammer (nocking them aside as well) or hell why not grabbing a pair of Inchors and infect everyone whit your Poisonous dash. The strategic posibilities are as endless as the amount of Melee weapons you have.

 

- Radial Blind: Not a bad skill and probably the only reason people still use Excalibur. Its ok though you should change the animation depending on the weapon type hes using as well.

 

Super Jump Impecable Condition: Excalibur increases his stamina regeneration and Jump height for a few seconds. Duration, Stamina and Jump gain increased by mods. Whit this Excalibur can be a much more lethal forcé in melee combat, the High Stamina regeneration will allow him to dispatch foes and get back stamina fast enough to block incoming bullets, the increased Jump heigh whit his reasonable speed will give him a much more manageable mobility that blends flawlessly whit melee combat.

 

- Radial Javelin Impale: Summon a set number of blades above him that will impale nearby enemies to the ground. Affected enemies take heavy damage, initially stunned for half a second and then rooted in place unable to move and whit decreased accuracy. Damage affected by current melee weapon and Strenght mods, Root duration affected by Duration mods, amount of blades affected by Strenght and AoE affected by range mods.

 

Here is the thing Radial Javelin wasnt bad perse, it had good damage and it was pretty cool to see enemies being impaled to walls but the cast animation is SLOOOOOOOW as Hek and the damage is quite unreliable as you get in higher missions. Whit Impale even if the animation is still a bit slow enemies who dont die by the blade will be initially stunned and will have a severe accuracy reduction as they are impaled on the ground. Its gruesome, its efffective and it gives Excalibro an Ultimate that is both Visually impressive and reliable in High (CC) and low (Damage) lv missions.

 

Whit these changes i feel the three starter frames will be very well balanced and will give New players a much more solid choice at the beguining: Mag for those who want to focus on Ranged combat, Loki for players who want a more utility oriented (and harder) frame and Excalibur for those looking for a more Melee oriented gameplay. Covering all three aspects of the game.

 

Also since Mag and Loki can be used in high lv stages this changes will help Excalibur to also be able to scale all the way up whit his friends.

 

Im just a Excalibro fan who wants its good old Starter a way to be played without Flash spam and to properly represent its legacy as the original Warframe. Now if you excuse me Valkyr and i have to suit up, getting Excalibro back wont be easy.

 

For the Impale skill you mentioned? It sounds pretty awesome. Only thing I would change about it is, to make it almost like Saryn. Saryn's Miasma when used  basically melts enemies, but the surviving enemies flail around from the acidic poison. For Excalibur, your new skill, Impale, should instead quite literally impale them to the ground, where the enemies struggle for a few seconds trying to get back up from the impalement, like with the Miasma stun animations.

 

His Super Jump is pretty useless to me, unless you combine it with Heavy impact, but that is a flaw, since it has to be combined with another mod to make it useful. It's also horrible as a utility/tactical mod. The new skill you suggested sounds nice, but I don't really see it helping Excalibur that much.

 

All Warframes (lies, most of them is more precise), their skills usually should complement each other and embody the Warframe as part of their persona/characteristic.

Ember with fire

Frost with ice (some of his skills and mechanics of them need a serious work and snow globe is really sad now.)

Rhino with his.... tanking

Hydroid with his water (his skills/powers seriously complement eachother really well in my opinion)

Loki with his tactical advantageous

Nyx with her CC

Trinity with her heal support (and damage mitigation)

Valkyr with her rage

Vauban with his bag of tricks (AGGP reference)

Volt with his electricity

Ash with his pseudo ninja-esque skills (poor mechanics on lots, 75% of his skills)

Mag with her magnetic nature (her 4th skill could still use some work)

Nova with her nukes (her nuke bullet is very useful and fun, MP on the other hand is too random with the AoE explosion procs and to be honest her 4th skill was disappointing since when I read that it said it procs a chain of explosions, I literally was hoping to see a "chain" of explosions happening at differing times triggered from the first explosion, but instead they explode simultaneously....)

Saryn with her poisons (contagion is admittedly a poor skill)

Banshee with her control over sound (the one skill where it makes a certain radius soundproof and the other one where it spots weakness needs work, like it should last for a set duration and the AoE should follow her around instead of being in a set area like it was planted)

Oberon with his.... yeah.. (very poor excuse of a "paladin" rather use him for damage and some CC control)

Zephyr with her ability over air/wind (very fun frame to use)

Nekros with his .... (I know his theme is around nercomancy but he's like a combination of CC with Terrify and Shadows of the Dead. He's also used for looting purposes as well and you mostly see him used for that specific reason too)

 

I think that pretty much covers all of them. Oh wait, forgot the main one....

Excailbur with his super averaged-ness.

 

Yeah.... Kinda ironic that his role was getting faded out when the trailer release of him getting killed by Alad V came out.....

Edited May 9, 2014 by VoidWraith

[Vargras]

Vargras Whit Wormhole i can send my entire team to the other side of the room if i want to, Rip line can be used to literally "spider man" your way around, either to the sides, up or down, not to mention it also deals some respectable damage for a 1 skill that is used for mobility. Again i cant comment on bounce since i havent used it.

Yet again, Wormhole, Ripline, and Bounce all have setup and/or travel times. Super Jump is instant.

 

Super Jump is ONLY for a single large vertical launch wich you cant really control. Every other movement skill is far more presice and some of them even encourage imagination (Rip line) to freely move yourself around a room.

Doing it very, very wrong.

 

Am i the one crazy or are you the one who doesnt want to admit that Super Jump is worthless.

Look, there's no sense in beating around the bush any longer -- you are bad at Excalibur. His skills are far from worthless (not even Radial Javelin, even though that's just straight damage), and the simple fact of the matter is that you have failed to properly utilize any of them, and because of that, you decided it was a problem with the frame and not your own playstyle.

 

I've seen numerous balance topics started by you, and all too often are they for something that is balanced and does not need it at all.

 

[CaveCricket48]

Super Jump is not worth the slot it takes up.

[Vargras]

Super Jump is not worth the slot it takes up.

I can think of several skills that are even worse (and I definitely don't equip them on their respective frames).

 

Ash's Teleport, Saryn's Venom Spore and Contagion, Volt's Electric Barrier, Frost's Freeze, Mag's Bullet Attractor, Nekros' Soul Punch and Terrify, and Oberon's Hallowed Ground.

 

Free-aim mobility skills are always useful. Damage abilities that deal static amounts or are incredibly gimmicky, and even utility skills that just aren't that great? Not at all.

[Vaskadar]

My Excalibro buff banner.

Ok, so here are a couple things I've noticed people posting, and want myself.

Slash dash definitely needs to add to the combo counter. The combo counter should also provide additional slash dash damage via the multiplier, like it would with a melee weapon. Slash dash should also inherit the melee weapon's elements. This would bring Excalibur back to being the poster-boy of Warframe, and drastically improve his scalability into late game.

Radial Blind should have a sword of light hoisted up into the air (by excalibur's hand), and shatter, leaving a bright flash of light. It should last a wee bit longer, too.

Super jump should increase the range of Radial Blind (this plays off the idea that super jump should lead into combo powers), while it's active. Should also be usable while airborne, aka double-jumping.

Radial Javelin's skana placeholders should be completely replaced and be replaced with javelins of light. They should have 8m worth of punch through. They should also ragdoll enemies that are hit by the javelins. While super jump is active and Radial Javelin is activated, it should have a downward conical effect, or a spherical effect, hitting targets below and around him. Power Strength should increase the number of Javelins, too.

[RealPandemonium]

I can think of several skills that are even worse (and I definitely don't equip them on their respective frames).

 

Ash's Teleport, Saryn's Venom Spore and Contagion, Volt's Electric Barrier, Frost's Freeze, Mag's Bullet Attractor, Nekros' Soul Punch and Terrify, and Oberon's Hallowed Ground.

 

Free-aim mobility skills are always useful. Damage abilities that deal static amounts or are incredibly gimmicky, and even utility skills that just aren't that great? Not at all.

Some of those skills are legitimately useful, but not essential.  Almost all of those skills would become excellent with some slight alterations and are still useful at low levels or when compromised equipment-wise.  Weapon power creep and broken enemy scaling are to blame for some of it. 

[CaveCricket48]

I can think of several skills that are even worse (and I definitely don't equip them on their respective frames).

 

Ash's Teleport, Saryn's Venom Spore and Contagion, Volt's Electric Barrier, Frost's Freeze, Mag's Bullet Attractor, Nekros' Soul Punch and Terrify, and Oberon's Hallowed Ground.

 

Free-aim mobility skills are always useful. Damage abilities that deal static amounts or are incredibly gimmicky, and even utility skills that just aren't that great? Not at all.

 

The existence of abilities worse than Super Jump does not make it any more useful.

 

Is jumping 10 times your height whenever you want, as long as you're currently grounded, useful? Of course it is.

 

But is that ability worth it, to take up a mod slot that you could be using to drastically improve your frame's durability or strengthen your much more powerful skills? I don't think so.

Edited May 9, 2014 by CaveCricket48

[Vargras]

But is that ability worth it, to take up a mod slot that you could be using to drastically improve your frame's durability or strengthen your much more powerful skills? I don't think so.

Mobility means less damage taken, which means more durability.

 

Super Jump improves your durability by the mere act of being a mobility skill.

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

The existence of abilities worse than Super Jump does not make it any more useful.

 

Is jumping 10 times your height whenever you want, as long as you're currently grounded, useful? Of course it is.

 

But is that ability worth it, to take up a mod slot that you could be using to drastically improve your frame's durability or strengthen your much more powerful skills? I don't think so.

WHERE WERE YOU PEOPLE ABOUT A DAY AGO WHEN I WAS HAMMERED BY PEOPLE WHO THINK ITS USEFULL

 

i could have used that support but well better late than never i guess

[CaveCricket48]

Mobility means less damage taken, which means more durability.

 

Super Jump improves your durability by the mere act of being a mobility skill.

 

You're thrown high into the air out of any sort of cover. The only durability it'll offer you is when you're against the infested. Any other faction and you might as well paint a big red target on yourself.

[Vargras]

You're thrown high into the air out of any sort of cover. The only durability it'll offer you is when you're against the infested. Any other faction and you might as well paint a big red target on yourself.

Tell that to Zephyr and her Tailwind, or Valkyr and her Ripline.

 

Cover or not, you're a moving target. Moving targets are harder to hit. In any given match, players aren't going to find cover, and will instead run and slide all over the place because mobility makes them harder to hit.

[CaveCricket48]

Tell that to Zephyr and her Tailwind, or Valkyr and her Ripline.

 

Cover or not, you're a moving target. Moving targets are harder to hit. In any given match, players aren't going to find cover, and will instead run and slide all over the place because mobility makes them harder to hit.

 

Tailwind and Ripline move you in the direction you want, and move you fast.

 

Super Jump goes only up. Unless if you Slash Dash after jumping, you're exposing yourself to MORE enemies, because enemies that normally wouldn't be able to see you because of ground obstacles now have line of sight.

 

The "Moving targets are harder to hit" is also BS against the grineer, who all pretty much have hitscan weapons. Against the corpus, since your entire movement is going up and going back down, you'll still be taking more damage due to exposing yourself more than if you were to just sprint away.

[Vargras]

Tailwind and Ripline move you in the direction you want, and move you fast.

 

Super Jump goes only up. Unless if you Slash Dash after jumping, you're exposing yourself to MORE enemies, because enemies that normally wouldn't be able to see you because of ground obstacles now have line of sight.

 

The "Moving targets are harder to hit" is also BS against the grineer, who all pretty much have hitscan weapons. Against the corpus, since your entire movement is going up and going back down, you'll still be taking more damage due to exposing yourself more than if you were to just sprint away.

You can crouch once you begin to fall after a Super Jump and it will immediately propel you in the direction you're facing. If you're going to talk about how "worthless" a skill is, probably helps if you know everything about it. Because, you know, testing. Which you should have done to come to the conclusion that it's worthless.

 

In addition, hitscan or not, you won't get hit as often if you're actively moving. Go ahead and try it.

[CaveCricket48]

You can crouch once you begin to fall after a Super Jump and it will immediately propel you in the direction you're facing. If you're going to talk about how "worthless" a skill is, probably helps if you know everything about it. Because, you know, testing. Which you should have done to come to the conclusion that it's worthless.

 

In addition, hitscan or not, you won't get hit as often if you're actively moving. Go ahead and try it.

 

Yeah that "actively moving" is called sprinting. Your entire argument of using Super Jump as a means to avoid damage is pointless when all frames already have that feature built-in.

 

Oh, you want to talk about using the Dragon Kick? Well why do I need to go UP into the air to expose myself to more enemies to do the Dragon Kick when I can just jump normally and initiate the Dragon Kick faster?

 

Hell, I can just wall boost and fly halfway across the map or copter.

[VoidWraith]

All skills have their uses. Useless for some, and incredibly useful for others. Seems like more than 70-80% of the people feel super jump is useless. Same can be said with

 

Ash's Teleport, Saryn's Venom Spore and Contagion, Volt's Electric Barrier, Frost's Freeze, Mag's Bullet Attractor, Nekros' Soul Punch and Terrify, and Oberon's Hallowed Ground.

 

But hey, they have their play style and you have yours. People have even been known to change a warframe's supposedly intended role to fit their play style how they want (quite effectively too, I might add). Will they discard certain aspects that were part of that warframe to fit them? Sure.

 

Is it wrong? Not really. Just because we disagree does not make it "wrong". What's wrong to you can be right/normal for others.

Edited May 9, 2014 by VoidWraith

[(PSN)RocketPunch1221]

[Vargras]

Yeah that "actively moving" is called sprinting. Your entire argument of using Super Jump as a means to avoid damage is pointless when all frames already have that feature built-in.

I said that because Super Jump is a means to avoid damage because it's a mobility skill. You're now attempting to deny that with, "every frame can jump so it's pointless".

 

Alright.

 

Oh, you want to talk about using the Dragon Kick? Well why do I need to go UP into the air to expose myself to more enemies to do the Dragon Kick when I can just jump normally and initiate the Dragon Kick faster?

Let's say you're running a mission. You're on the first floor, and you've got a team mate leveling a new frame, who ran off on their own and got downed on the second floor. You need to go revive them. Sure, you can wallclimb, or run up the stairs and slide and kick your way to them (because let's be honest, everyone does that because you go faster). Or you can just Super Jump, kick in midair, and get there faster than the other options.

 

Super Jump isn't just mobility, it's better mobility because it goes higher than a standard jump.

 

Hell, I can just wall boost and fly halfway across the map or copter.

I mentioned this earlier, but good luck wall running if there's no walls to propel you where you want to go.

 

I'm eventually gonna stop bothering with this topic, because it's clear that several of you can't comprehend the inherent usefulness of a vertical mobility skill. But hey, good luck getting Excalibur changed! I'm sure it's about as likely to happen as it is for Melee 2.0 to be reverted, which is to say it'll never happen.

[CaveCricket48]

I said that because Super Jump is a means to avoid damage because it's a mobility skill. You're now attempting to deny that with, "every frame can jump so it's pointless".

 

Alright.

 

*Every frame can sprint to avoid damage

 

(Everything else)

 

Yes, I get the whole mobility thing. As I said, it's a useful skill.

 

But the situations you presented are quite situational. Not useful enough to replace another mod card -in my opinion-

Edited May 9, 2014 by CaveCricket48

[VoidWraith]

Let's say you're running a mission. You're on the first floor, and you've got a team mate leveling a new frame, who ran off on their own and got downed on the second floor. You need to go revive them. Sure, you can wallclimb, or run up the stairs and slide and kick your way to them (because let's be honest, everyone does that because you go faster). Or you can just Super Jump, kick in midair, and get there faster than the other options.

 

Super Jump isn't just mobility, it's better mobility because it goes higher than a standard jump.

 

True. But let's also be honest, if you have a low level frame and you died once or twice, that's fine. But if you died 3+ times? Most people (maybe 60%?) would just let you die, since, you're low leveled (not much mods on you because of it) and recklessly rushing ahead without any planning and completely dependent on the team. Teamwork is fine, but co-dependency is dangerous.

 

CaveCricket48, on 09 May 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

Hell, I can just wall boost and fly halfway across the map or copter.

I mentioned this earlier, but good luck wall running if there's no walls to propel you where you want to go.

 

I'm eventually gonna stop bothering with this topic, because it's clear that several of you can't comprehend the inherent usefulness of a vertical mobility skill. But hey, good luck getting Excalibur changed! I'm sure it's about as likely to happen as it is for Melee 2.0 to be reverted, which is to say it'll never happen.

 

Super Jump is a skill and therefore uses up energy. Can this just be cured/mitigated with energy siphon or power efficiency skills? Yes. But if you really want it to be efficient, you'd just flip-jump+dragon kick your way through, or copter. Kills stamina? Yes, but stamina recharges alot faster than energy would from energy siphon.

[tris1]

no mater how you look at it others including myself are still going to think super jump is a waste of a mod slot if you can do the same thing while wall running and other such movements.

 

there must be a problem with either the community (I doubt it) or the war frame powers it self if people keep bring posts up about (Excalibur and frost) these two are the most common, not counting nerfing therefore I still stand by my opinion of Excalibur needs to have some fixes

[RealPandemonium]

The bottom line is that people who actually use Excalibur on a regular basis (and aren't bandwagoners who built him because they read that his 2 was OP on the forums) by and large think that his abilities are fine except for 4.  The people suggesting changes are the ones who don't play Excalibur and want the game to be different arbitrarily because their expectations are different from what's actually in the game.

Edited May 9, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[tris1]

The bottom line is that people who actually use Excalibur on a regular basis (and aren't bandwagoners who built him because they read that his 2 was OP on the forums) by and large think that his abilities are fine except for 4.  The people suggesting changes are the ones who don't play Excalibur and want the game to be different arbitrarily because their expectations are different from what's actually in the game.

your view is inaccurate Excalibur is my main warframe and only used the other frames for the mastery points the only powers I use are radial blind and slash dash. I don't have a second thought let alone a first thought about even using super jump. by your logic no frame should be buffed or nerfed ands that's just flawed

[(PSN)Bobtm0]

Here's another thing that I think needs to be addressed on the matter, still can't quote so whatever;  I'm on the leave Super Jump as it is team, the skill is a perfect fit for the frame.  It's funny that people mention coptering when you think about it.  How much further can you copter if you start from a much higher location?  Probably a lot farther a lot faster, shaving seconds off of one's time with each use to potentially run areas with all around better swiftness with no drawbacks.  Man, if only we had a skill that could instantly put us in a much higher vantage point in a mere moment that could be cast for cheap.... oh well.  :p

 

Super Jump plays itself well to giving you an instant vantage point.  It gets you higher, faster than any walljump can ever do, and doesn't auto-launch you with momentum in a given direction.  It can be used to give you a vantage point at which you can fire upon enemies behind cover or on a floor above you, right that very second.  The skill also has outstanding synergy with the Ogris, Penta, and Castanas, the last being my personal favorite.  It gives you a quick vantage point in the air faster than a walljump can, as well as doing so straight vertically right now, which a walljump cannot do, period.  It also allows you to jump high vertically from a wall, something which is literally impossible otherwise.  Your suggested change would outright remove that latter capability from the skill.

 

Do not, and I really mean this as hard as I can, do NOT try to shoehorn Excal into a melee niche too much, it'll only end really, really badly.  Because Loki already can roll right into that role very naturally and quite easily and is another starter.  Above all else, Excalibur is a frame that should be a middle-ground one, and it's what he is at the moment.  He isn't fast, but he sure isn't slow.  His defenses are trash, but they're not high either.

 

Slash Dash can be used to close the distance to foes or escape, a good zoning tool for melee users or for swift movement in general once its damage is irrelevant.

Radial Blind plays well to CC, slightly more-so for a melee player due to its characteristics of the blind as well as the damage multiplier it allows.

Super Jump gives you extra angles of attack at any time, anywhere, lending itself to both gunplay and swordplay.

Radial Javelin is ....

 

Well, basically every frame has one bad ability.

[Vargras]

but also doesnt fit into the overall theme of Excalibur (Mobile Melee combat)

The only one who has ever said that was his "theme" has been you.

 

Valkyr is the melee frame. Excalibur is just a well-rounded frame.

 

it self if people keep bring posts up about (Excalibur and frost) these two are the most common

Just because people bring up Excalibur and Frost doesn't mean they're right about it -- those two are fairly well-balanced now, and there's several other frames that are far more deserving of buffs than they are, such as:

-Ash

-Banshee

-Saryn

-Oberon

-Nekros

Edited May 9, 2014 by Vargras

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

Vargras Well im pretty sure i read somehwere in game saying Excalibur is a balanced warframe specialized in players, or for players looking for Swordplay or something like that.