egregiousRac Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) Currently Frost and Rhino have extremely similar ults. Here is what they look like: Frost (Avalanche) 1500 Damage 15 Range 1 Second Stun Stagger Rhino (Stomp) 800 Damage (1600 in a small area) 25 Range 8 Second Stun Small Knockback As you can see Stomp is huge and better CC all around compared to Avalanche. It dilates time, which makes no sense for Rhino, causing an 8 second stun while Frost, who freezes people solid, can only stun for one second. This makes no sense. Here is what I would like to see: Frost (Avalanche) 800 Damage 15 Range 8 Second Stun - This gives Frost a way to lock down a region, giving him much needed utility. A weaker version of this was in the game for a while, and was very well received by players. Stagger Rhino (Stomp) 2000-1000 Damage based on distance to target. 25 Range Throws enemies away, throwing enemies farther the closer they are to Rhino. At the edge of the range it should just be a knockdown. The distance thrown would require testing. - This gives Rhino an effective and unique CC that actually fits his character and doesn't shatter time in the process. Edited May 14, 2014 by egregiousRac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aka_Miso Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 gross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bejuizb Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 You're trying to destroy Rhino's CC? Sure, throwing them away might be considered CC...but what about narrow corridors? They're just gonna get knocked down on their asses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinperor Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Frost needs utility now? He kinda has 2 AOE slows and a single target freeze. Not really seeing how Frost needs more CC. As for Rhino, that just kinda sound like his old Radial Slam but buffed a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RahuHordika Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Yes to the Avalanche ideas, but Stomp? Uh, no. Not only the concept is one of Rhino's most iconic abilities but also there are so many other things that make no sense whatsoever, I don't see how it's so 'out of character'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatpig84 Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) Stomp gives Rhino a skill that let's him work till late game as it is a hard CC on top of him having roar, so he can double duty as a CC and team buffer Avalanche needs to get it's 5 second freeze back. That's it. Edited May 14, 2014 by fatpig84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aka_Miso Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Stomp gives Rhino a skill that let's him work till late game as it is a hard CC on top of him having roar, so he can double duty as a CC and team buffer Avalanche needs to get it's 5 second freeze back. That's it. yeah that bug was the best bug in the history of bugs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egregiousRac Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) Stomp gives Rhino a skill that let's him work till late game as it is a hard CC on top of him having roar, so he can double duty as a CC and team buffer Avalanche needs to get it's 5 second freeze back. That's it. So 5 seconds of freeze somehow is okay compared to 8 seconds in a 66% larger area? What? Also, Rhino has 3 other above average skills. His ult is amazing, but with this change would still be good. Frost has one above average skill. Yes to the Avalanche ideas, but Stomp? Uh, no. Not only the concept is one of Rhino's most iconic abilities but also there are so many other things that make no sense whatsoever, I don't see how it's so 'out of character'. Then Avalanche would just be Stomp in a smaller area. The idea is to make them different, and since it makes sense to have freezing things solid be a stun, that leaves changing Stomp. Frost needs utility now? He kinda has 2 AOE slows and a single target freeze. Not really seeing how Frost needs more CC. As for Rhino, that just kinda sound like his old Radial Slam but buffed a lot. The single target freeze is horrible because it breaks if anyone damages the target at all, and slows are not nearly as effective as stuns. As for the Rhino change, it would make him more interesting to play by far. You're trying to destroy Rhino's CC? Sure, throwing them away might be considered CC...but what about narrow corridors? They're just gonna get knocked down on their asses? Rhino already has a fantastic damage buff, CC immunity, and a decent mobility skill. Does he really need to have an 8 second stun too? The knockdown alone is still around 2 seconds. Edited May 14, 2014 by egregiousRac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egregiousRac Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 yeah that bug was the best bug in the history of bugs Stomp was still better than Avalanche in every way, even with the bug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aka_Miso Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) Stomp was still better than Avalanche in every way, even with the bug. not damage and ba looking animation and effects Edited May 14, 2014 by Sasoka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egregiousRac Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 not damage and ba looking animation and effects Stomp deals 1600 damage in a range close to that of Avalanche. I do love the effects on Avalanche though, and the effects on both abilities wouldn't change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aka_Miso Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 Stomp deals 1600 damage in a range close to that of Avalanche. I do love the effects on Avalanche though, and the effects on both abilities wouldn't change. didnt they talk about bringing back the bug for frost though in a dev stream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egregiousRac Posted May 14, 2014 Author Share Posted May 14, 2014 didnt they talk about bringing back the bug for frost though in a dev stream I don't recall them ever saying this. The issue here is not just the ineffectiveness of Avalanche, it is also that the only differences in the abilities are looks and stats, with one being both longer range and duration. When there are this few of characters no two abilities should be this similar. The same goes for Loki and Ash for invisibility and teleport, though there are some differences there. For invisibility, one has longer duration and the other one staggers enemies when you enter it, while for teleport, one switches with the target while the other places you behind it, ready to backstab. They are still effectively the same skills, which reduces differentiation and makes one character clearly stronger. Just tweaking stats and adding/removing small effects doesn't balance them, because the only way to balance such similar skills is to make them the same. That leaves the other solution, reworking one or both of the abilities in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0ckwolf Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 suggested something simmilar a bunch of times. + infinity!!!!!! DE should be beaten with stones and sticks for not having implemented/changed this by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aka_Miso Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 I don't recall them ever saying this. The issue here is not just the ineffectiveness of Avalanche, it is also that the only differences in the abilities are looks and stats, with one being both longer range and duration. When there are this few of characters no two abilities should be this similar. The same goes for Loki and Ash for invisibility and teleport, though there are some differences there. For invisibility, one has longer duration and the other one staggers enemies when you enter it, while for teleport, one switches with the target while the other places you behind it, ready to backstab. They are still effectively the same skills, which reduces differentiation and makes one character clearly stronger. Just tweaking stats and adding/removing small effects doesn't balance them, because the only way to balance such similar skills is to make them the same. That leaves the other solution, reworking one or both of the abilities in question. it was the one right after they fixed it, scout was talking about how the community really liked bug and they said they might work it back into the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedemon Posted May 14, 2014 Share Posted May 14, 2014 (edited) rhino ultimate is useful and looks cool why the hell would you want to change that one? and about frost, well i do like his skill set, the problem is his ultimate is focused on direct damage which doesn't scale well and requires a different build than his other skills to get even decent, still i think it should have a longer frozen time and that frozen status should give a defense debuff those saying frost is not powerful just dont know how to use it, i had a lot of fun soloing Ceres boss yesterday with a frost prime and my drakgoon Edited May 14, 2014 by Edgedemon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatpig84 Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 I argue a 5 second avalanche is better than a 8 second stomp, since for 8 seconds Rhino cannot stomp again until everything that is floating is dead. It is the same deal with Chaos, that is why certain Nyx users actively push their Chaos to last 10 seconds. Trust me, I will go lower if Chaos was allowed to go lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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