Ash: Press 4 To Ninja!

[Nagisawa]

So where is ash's minus now? IT DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE! 

What are you talking about?  It's STILL THERE!

 

It's slightly shorter, but it still takes too much time in a group environment,  Worse, the 'clones' don't actually pick up any dropped loot, like the old Bladestorm.

[Janzer]

The issue is not Ash's Ultimate.  The issue is that this game has no Solo/Single Player component.  Or rather a horribly badly implemented one.

Really? I solo with my Volt as a melee fighter all the time (a non-melee, non-tank type, technically a caster) on Pluto Dark Sector survival 30-40 level starting enemies. I use and have used my Ash as a solo Nightmare runner...because he's pretty great for it based on building him for it.

 

I read the initial parts of this thread where people were complaining about animation for bladestorm (which has been a hands off experience for quite awhile) being too long, and at the end of this thread people are complaining about the animation being too short!

 

There's always going to be the variable sides that either feel things are underpowered, things are overpowered, things are just right, and things are never right. I got nothing for that, I'm just glad I'm not DE.

[Rabidbluedeath]

What are you talking about?  It's STILL THERE!

 

It's slightly shorter, but it still takes too much time in a group environment,  Worse, the 'clones' don't actually pick up any dropped loot, like the old Bladestorm.

Banshee Cast time = 1 second with post cast delay of 1 second total 2

Ember Cast time = 2.2 seconds

Excalibur = 1 second with 2.5 seconds post cast delay total 3.5

Frost = 2.4 cast .75 delay total 3.15 (about)

Hydroid = not on wiki but from my play about 2 seconds total

Mag = 2.7 seconds

Oberon= not on wiki but ~1.5

Saryn = not on wiki but ~.75 seconds

Volt = ~1.5 seconds

Zephyr = ~1.5 seconds

 

Assuming the full 15 targets/3 is 5 targets. you kill ~1 target a second so ~5 seconds total for a bladestorm, sound about right? So 5 times longer than the shortest ult (Miasma) and about double the longest (radial Javelin). Now compare the bladestorm damage to all other ult damage (some ults included have CC/utility potential I know) and tell me where the problem is. I don't see a problem with (basically) the strongest ult in the game taking longer than the others, I don't know why other people do.

 

Also its 66% shorter, where are you getting "slightly"? And boo hoo they don't pick up resources, no other ult does and the clones don't have carrier on them to pick up the stuff. What do you want for bladestorm? An instant nuke room clearer that picks up resources? We have enough instant nukes already, in fact this change got rid of the only non-instant nuke ult.

[Rabidbluedeath]

Where you see a flaw I see an important aspect to balancing the game. Right now it has a pretty big drawback to the damage it does, this is not a flaw. The drawback gives the ability an element of "Only push 4 if you need to and when you can afford to", unlike (after the toggle update) every other ultimate in the game. This is not a flaw with this ability, its a balance problem with other abilities and the game in general from my perspective. People all over the forums complain about "Push 4 to win" gameplay being the only gameplay. Yet when an ultimate isn't push 4 to insta kill the room people seem to get upset. The community can't seem to figure out what it wants as a whole. That is part of the reason when parts of the community go "We want X to change" and it would cause very apparent balance issues I tend to not like it. Mainly because after it happens 5-10 threads pop up going "X change that we asked for sucks now that we actually play it", "It wasn't implemented the way we wanted", "This change is terrible DE what were you thinking", or "it's way to OP change it back." I'm willing to bet speeding up bladestorm (im assuing to ~5 seconds unless you're not doing the animations its all clones in which case basically instant) will have the same effect. 

 

I would also like to take this opportunity to say I called it, given the 6+ threads complaining about the change.

[RealPandemonium]

Look, people that don't like it. To bad I was about the only person defending it taking 15-17 seconds before the change. Not much help now.

I was defending it as well but the voices of those who actually play Ash are drowned out by the ones who want the next Nova.

[Rabidbluedeath]

I was defending it as well but the voices of those who actually play Ash are drowned out by the ones who want the next Nova.

Fair enough. I posted this elsewhere but food for thought.

 

Ash = Nova

1. fire and forget damage to multiple targets

2. high damage potential if you can hit enough enemies/the ball

3. an A>B movement

4. an instant/near instant nuke that will kill all it touches.

 

and people cant see why I liked the unique-ness of the old one.

[RealPandemonium]

Fair enough. I posted this elsewhere but food for thought.

 

Ash = Nova

1. fire and forget damage to multiple targets

2. high damage potential if you can hit enough enemies/the ball

3. an A>B movement

4. an instant/near instant nuke that will kill all it touches.

 

and people cant see why I liked the unique-ness of the old one.

I saw that comparison in the other thread, and I approve of it mostly.  Ash's 1 is superior but Nova has him beat in flexibility and effectiveness on all the others.  This IS Nova so that's not surprising.  I think it's important to note that for the brief time between 13.3.0 and 13.5.0 Ash's 4 was more powerful than any other damage skill in the game while also having trade-offs that kept it in check and made it different from any other ability in the game.  (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238596-explaining-the-newest-and-previous-bladestorm/?p=2766617)

[shut]

Except he still has a hard target limit of 15 so you aren't clearing a room, still just the 15 people (unless that was removed and they didn't say). So if there are more than that, which there would be in the situation you are getting hit so hard you need to use it to recharge shields, you are still going to get wrecked after it ends. Pre 13.5 Effectiveness not returned :/.

 

Never thought I'd see the day where people complained that Ash's Ultimate wasn't slow enough.

 

I think you're severely overestimating how many enemies fit inside a room on a regular basis. You're generally only going to go over 15 during Defense missions; anything besides that and 15 will be more than sufficient (and, if it isn't, the number of stragglers left behind will generally be positively adorable in number). And even so, nothing's stopping you from casting Smokescreen and then casually sitting a meter away from where you cast it so your shields can recover. You've got high speed and three defensive abilities; the time saved with the new Blade Storm gives you all the more ability to put them to good use.

 

 

What confuses me is that you're treating it like it's some sort of nerf when two thirds of the previously-absurd waiting time can now be used to do something a bit more productive, e.g. actually contributing to the mission in a more significant manner, or finishing off stragglers and then doing nothing for the next ten seconds as your shields recover.

Edited May 30, 2014 by SortaRandom

[RealPandemonium]

Gonna post this in all the Blade Storm threads so that it is seen.  

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238596-explaining-the-newest-and-previous-bladestorm/?p=2766617

[Rabidbluedeath]

Never thought I'd see the day where people complained that Ash's Ultimate wasn't slow enough.

I think you're severely overestimating how many enemies fit inside a room on a regular basis. You're generally only going to go over 15 during Defense missions; anything besides that and 15 will be more than sufficient (and, if it isn't, the number of stragglers left behind will generally be positively adorable in number). And even so, nothing's stopping you from casting Smokescreen and then casually sitting a meter away from where you cast it so your shields can recover. You've got high speed and three defensive abilities; the time saved with the new Blade Storm gives you all the more ability to put them to good use.

What confuses me is that you're treating it like it's some sort of nerf when two thirds of the previously-absurd waiting time can now be used to do something a bit more productive, e.g. actually contributing to the mission in a more significant manner, or finishing off stragglers and then doing nothing for the next ten seconds as your shields recover.

The damage was nerfed, the defensive ability of it was nerfed, the amount of thought required to use the ability was nerfed. the kill speed was buffed. (useability I am calling neutral due to the fact it lost and gained some depending on opinion). so 3-1 nerf. Nothing was stopping me from casting smokescreen before and casually sitting a meter away while shields recharged before. Where are my 3 defensive abilities? I count 1, smokescreen. Shuriken isnt, teleport isnt, bladestorm isnt.

I saw that comparison in the other thread, and I approve of it mostly. Ash's 1 is superior but Nova has him beat in flexibility and effectiveness on all the others. This IS Nova so that's not surprising. I think it's important to note that for the brief time between 13.3.0 and 13.5.0 Ash's 4 was more powerful than any other damage skill in the game while also having trade-offs that kept it in check and made it different from any other ability in the game. (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238596-explaining-the-newest-and-previous-bladestorm/?p=2766617)

How about Excal/Ash

1. Multi damage to multiple targets, spamable.

2. makes you un-targetable with a melee buff

3. a mobility skill with little use

4. a 15 target AoE radial instant nuke

My issue is instead of fixing bladestorm they simply made it a better radial javelin. Making one ability like the rest isn't fixing anything, its reducing diversity and further perpetuating push 4 to win. At this rate the next step is Valkyr will have a toggle Ult that just shoots homing energy claws at people because her ult kills slow.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Rabidbluedeath

[RealPandemonium]

The bleed is back.  Still unsatisfied with the way clones work but I doubt the people in my camp will be heard.

 

Edit: This suggestion by Llyssa would be a great compromise for both factions:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/238128-bladestorm-improvements-needed/?p=2762653

 

Upvote it, guys!

Edited May 30, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[Rabidbluedeath]

Sure we will, we just have to whine constantly like the people who didn't like the duration. Only we have balance issues with the other damage frame ults on our side.

[dandin3]

well people i ' m just here to say i love the new bladestorm and i dont think its a win button,

it's high dmg and specific.

 for low lvl it's not that much good and no crowd control .so its pure dmg skill that help..

i see your point .. but frame with pure dmg and no crowd control it's something you need to have when u have 19 frame [and more to come]

[sry for the english... hope u get it :D]

Edited May 31, 2014 by dandin3

[RahuHordika]

well people i ' m just here to say i love the new bladestorm and i dont think its a win button

It's as much as a win button as Avalanche or Radial Javelin, not to mention that is dangerously close to being just as aesthetically boring. Which was one on the important points of Bladestorm.

Now you can't enjoy the animations at all unless you hit that very sweet room with max enemy number available in it. And for those suggesting the panoramic view, no it does not help, in fact turns it more into a kill everything in a finger snap, just with a few seconds of animation of something you casted, just like Hydroid's ult.

Edited May 31, 2014 by RahuStalker

[Rabidbluedeath]

It's as much as a win button as Avalanche or Radial Javelin, not to mention that is dangerously close to being just as aesthetically boring. Which was one on the important points of Bladestorm.

Now you can't enjoy the animations at all unless you hit that very sweet room with max enemy number available in it. And for those suggesting the panoramic view, no it does not help, in fact turns it more into a kill everything in a finger snap, just with a few seconds of animation of something you casted, just like Hydroid's ult.

Agreed, if they want ults like other frames have play the other frames. Supposed to pick the frame for its abilities not its aesthetics. 

[_Raiklar_]

If by forward thinking you mean making it like every other instant nuke ult in the game then sure... "forward." I wont try to lie or anything and say there haven't been instances where the duration has hindered me in some manner but that is just something I have to account for when playing. In defense do I use it while my other teammates are in a  corner chugging bottles of rubber cement or do I wait for a better time? Are any of my allies low health and needing to be revived shortly or will they last til its over? It adds some finesse to playing Ash that I really like. You can make that duration work for you too. It makes a better panic button than smokescreen in some situations and lets you recharge shields. Furthermore having its duration cut to near instant or ~5 second would unbalance this ult with the damage it does now. Radial Javalin wouldn't be able to compare, it would hit the same or fewer targets due to its mechanics, and do under half the damage in a comparable amount of time. I would be willing to say that most of the time you're not hitting much more than 15 enemies with other ults so they get unbalanced as well. Its just a recipe for some terrible power-creep. 

 

 

 

Lets be honest the ability has a ~17 second duration tops, that really isn't that long in non game time standards. Maybe sprinting to the fridge to get another drink and back, or drink/eat what you have with you. I really don't know any way they could make it interactive without scraping the whole idea. I would like if it didn't disable typing while active though.

 

I think the whole shadowclone idea will work as well as valkyr's hysteria damage being tied to her melee weapon. People will think they want it, but it wont work how they want it too and will end up making the ability worse.

i agree. since the change Ash's ability sucks alot less dam than before and the animation went from and enjoyable 17 seconds to 2seconds i mean why even have it at all now.

[Nagisawa]

I still miss the last Bladestorm.

[_Raiklar_]

you and me both.

[KiloFoxx]

Ash spawns Shadow Clones?

 

Kage Bunshin no Jutsu!!

[c0ldh4nds]

Ash spawns Shadow Clones?

 

Kage Bunshin no Jutsu!!

rofl...