Ash Ideas.

[RahuHordika]

And why is it that whenever someone points out the fact that the old Bladestorm gave your shield time to recharge, everyone else seems to completely overlook/ignore it? I've mentioned this before, as well. That's the #1 thing I miss about Bladestorm.

The same kind of people who instead of looking for a creative buff simply want it to be another insta-kill nuke.

[GreyEnneract]

And why is it that whenever someone points out the fact that the old Bladestorm gave your shield time to recharge, everyone else seems to completely overlook/ignore it? I've mentioned this before, as well. That's the #1 thing I miss about Bladestorm.

I still have time for it to recharge my shields.

Try not using it on only 5 enemies.

420 Posts Swag.

Edited June 4, 2014 by GreyEnneract

[xJiX]

I still have time for it to recharge my shields.

Try not using it on only 5 enemies.

420 Posts Swag.

I think I missed the part where I said I use it on 5 enemies, while discussing this new change to Bladestorm's functionality. Could you point me to that post? Attacking 15 enemies, my shield does not recharge.

[GreyEnneract]

I think I missed the part where I said I use it on 5 enemies, while discussing this new change to Bladestorm's functionality. Could you point me to that post? Attacking 15 enemies, my shield does not recharge.

Mine does, so that is unfortunate for you.

[BlitzkriegBob]

Maybe natural talent could affect BS speed: each rank could add one clone (for example), or it could just leave one ash but speed up animation. This way, it would give player control on this specific point, depending on what you plan when using BS (shield recharge, or just quick area sweep).

Edited June 5, 2014 by BlitzkriegBob

[RahuHordika]

Maybe natural talent could affect BS speed: each rank could add one clone (for example), or it could just leave one ash but speed up animation. This way, it would give player control on this specific point, depending on what you plan when using BS (shield recharge, or just quick area sweep).

Or just add a toggle for the clones, a simple idea people still seem to be ignoring.

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

The clones were a lack luster fix for the issues regarding BS.

 

I have made this suggestion many times before. His ultimate should be a combinations of Excalibur's Slash Dash and Valkyr's Hysteria. Ash will go absolutely ape in a Shinobi/Ninja Gaiden manner. He flings out his wrist blades (and just how Excalibur slides across the ground and strikes, but mixed with Valkyr's flurry of attacks) Ash starts swinging, stabbing and striking so fast that it is like a storm of attacks that makes him only invulnerable from the front (as he would be swinging so fast that he would actually be attacking and parrying, bullets and melee, simultaneously. While doing this he would be moving as if he was on ice skates/roller blades (like Slash Dash) only you can control his movements. So he would be gliding around (a bit off the ground) like a snake holding a blender in its mouth and this goes on for a certain duration. For an added bonus you could cast this and SS simultaneously. So with this he could storm through a few groups of enemies (maxed out with mods), shredding everything, before it wears off. For an added visual effect he would have a trail of shadows that followed behind him (Shinobi Ninjitsu style), but this would be cosmetic only.

 

Other than BS...

 

Shuriken would be cool if it could be spammed without the delay by holding the trigger down, but it should still seek targets and have bleed proc. Nothing else necessary.

 

Smoke Screen should just cloak friendlies that Ash is standing on top of, for half the caster's duration. So at max his is 20 secs, teammates/NPCs would get 10 (just and example).

 

Teleport: Free to aim with no finisher, just the ability to start a combo chain, is the best fix. My other idea would be to make it something like Scorpions move where he turns to run from an enemy or just jumps backwards but disappears and ends up behind them with great momentum, capable of striking or not (holding down melee would perform a finisher/ accurate ground pound or just tapping would just do a normal swing to initiate a combo chain). That would be sufficient for combat but not general exploration, but I'll take it. 

 

 

That's all I got.

 

Thanks for reading!

[GreyEnneract]

If Shuriken is just made to be spammable, the energy cost wouldn't make it worth it.

[Acos]

Hello new Ash players~

Unless you are packing range enhancements out the butt, it is very unlikely that you will be hitting a maximum of 15 targets in most applications of Bladestorm. Groups are simply not that condensed together and if you actually count how many enemies you are attacking in a single use of the ability you will see that it's closer to 6-8, rather than a full 15. While it seems like a strange limitation on paper, in practice it is not generally a hindrance. 

Smokescreen is a very powerful ability that, when utilizing a good melee weapon, quickly surpasses the damage possible with Bladestorm. I could possibly see Ash placing an AOE that makes allies invisible, but he should be the only one that can move out of that AOE and retain his stealth. At the same time, I think it's better that Ash simply focus on the insane amount of damage he is capable of as his method of assisting the team. Giving the entire party insane damage and fantastic damage mitigation on a power that can become infinite with the correct grouping of mods would quickly surpass pre-nerf Blessing territory, and is not something I want to see plaguing Ash. 

When you begin to iron-out your Ash builds you'll likely stop trying to utilize Bladestorm like you do Molecular Prime or Rhino Stomp. If enemies are tightly packed together and a small distance away from you, you are much better to Smokescreen and then eviscerate them, even after the Bladestorm changes. Instead you use Bladestorm as a way to avoid damage; Missiles are flying at you, you become heavily poisoned, an Ancient is bearing down upon you, you are recovering from getting knocked down (Bladestorm cancels the recovery animation early).

 

Alternatively, you use Bladestorm as a way far away targets that would take you a long period of time to get to with your melee weapon. Especially nice in defense missions against factions other than the Infested, as Grineer and Corpus will often be hiding behind cover and spread far apart; Bladestorm flushes them out without actually having to physically find them. Otherwise using it to hit enemies far away from you and then quickly return is a quite obvious tactic. 

Shuriken is decent for a 25e power; very high damage but limited targets. I tend to feel like it doesn't do enough damage for what it is, and I shelf it entirely by the time I have mods such as Fleeting Expertise and Streamline, preferring Bladestorm for my ranged encounter needs. 

Teleport has the potential to be better; the laser-precision targeting needed to hit enemies at 50m away is kind of difficult to pull off unless you are already aiming down the scope of your weapon when you use it. The finisher damage it tries to do when Teleporting in just re-added the old problems associated with it; you spend too much time animating once you get close to enemies, which is time they spend filling you with holes. Some way of deciding whether we want to commit to a finisher or simply start attacking normally (to keep them stun-locked) would be very appreciated. I've suggested tapping the melee button to continue with normal attacks, while holding the button attempts a finisher. 

I wouldn't hate it if Loki/Ash simply teleported to where your cross hair was, and if an enemy happens to be under it then they utilize their Teleport's various effects (switching places for Loki, finisher prompts for Ash). This would give either frame a much easier time closing the distance to things they actually want to fight, and give them very good mobility or escape utilities everywhere else. 

So in summary; Smokescreen and Bladestorm are probably where they need to be in terms of power and balance. Either ability can be quite powerful and has a myriad of tactical capabilities associated with them that will become apparent the longer you play Ash. I don't think they need any more major overhauls. Small adjustments or bug fixes sure, but they work like they should now. 

Teleport and Shuriken are a bit lackluster by comparison. Shuriken doesn't do a significant amount of damage for the cost and is mostly overshadowed by other powers in the 25e tier, or just guns in general. Teleport is fine, just clunky to use at the moment and could generally be made to work better. 

[GreyEnneract]

-snip-

Smokescreen just giving Ash stealth makes it the same as Loki's, with half the duration.

Giving it more utility, and having it act as a real smokescreen is better overall. 

Even just having enemies inside the lingering smoke be disoriented is fine.

The ability needs to have more of a distinction from Loki's other than just a 1 second stagger.

 

Also, I would like to point at that the way Bladestorm is now, it has infinite damage.

Early on yes, just using a Smokescreen would be more efficient, but at high levels Bladestorm is always the way to go unless you're reviving someone, or you can use both in conjunction with each other to do even more damage more quickly with Bladestorm. Although you are correct in saying that Bladestorm is a way to avoid damage.

 

Shuriken as it is now is not worth slotting, like many other 1 abilities.

Teleport shouldn't be changed to teleport to any location in my opinion. That ability is already on Nova; the only real problem with Teleport itself is the slow finisher. I feel that if the finisher has to stay, it should deal enough damage to insta-kill whatever Ash teleported to. Using ~75 energy to kill only one enemy seems balanced enough for me, but of course it wouldn't work on bosses. The targeting problem when teleporting is more of a problem with all enemy targeting abilities. It definitely needs to be fixed though regardless.

[Rabidbluedeath]

-Snip-

Mostly agree with you but you seem to be talking about old ash, Bladestorm is useless for recharging shields now. (5 seconds isn't useful unless you have a recharge speed mod on, and 5 seconds is basically how long bladestorm will last with all 15 targets) Also Shuriken is very strong with its forced bleed proc. 1725 damage before resistances, even then 1225 bleed damage that bypasses shields and armor is amazing.

 

More or less agree with you. +1

 

-snip-

So you want to make smokescreen radial blind basically? No thanks. The proposed change would remove any value excalibur has. You have to balance the buffs against other frames as well. The 13.5 bladestorm change made radial javelin a complete joke no matter how you look at it and your smokescreen idea would be the final nail in Excal's coffin. Not to mention smokescreen for all team-mates would be so OP you would have to nerf it in some form.

 

He isn't correct. 5 seconds will not regenerate any useful amount of shields. (if your using the ult for damage mitigation the enemy is strong enough to rip through the measly amount of shields regenerated in no time. Just revert to pre 13.5, then give the ability a small stagger around each target or something smoke screen style. Earlier in the thread you said bladestorm is just for killing, as it stands now I would agree. Changing that is how you fix Ash's team play, not giving him a better radial blind. 

 

1, you're dead wrong about shuriken. 1725 damage to 2 targets or 2225 to one target is anything but useless. 2. You also want to make teleport 75 energy for something I can do with my gun in less time? Or something I do up to 15 times for 100 energy? No. Just make it free aim so it's an actual mobility skill. DE tried to put utility on a mobility skill and the community doesn't like it, never has. Before Nova the argument was it wasn't possible, now we see it is and the argument is "nova can already do that". An argument I realize I used for excalibur in this very thread. The single target teleport, however, would not make Nova's obsolete as the wormhole can be used for the entire team. 

 

If you or anyone else wholeheartedly believes in all of these changes petition for a female ninja frame with more utility and less damage while not straying to close to Loki territory. Making a new female frame halfway between ash and Loki makes more people happy than just changing Ash, which could upset the people who like Ash as he is. (I stipulate female because we already have 2 male stealth frames, we need a Kunoichi. Name it wisp or something.)

[BlitzkriegBob]

Been playing Ash for a while know, and as I read this topic (and others), here are my feelings now:

 

-Shuriken: fine as it is, usefull for quickly dealing with high mobility targtes such as Hellion or those damn Ospreys floating around as if they where drunk.

 

-Smoke screen: short but cheap, usefull for dealing with one specific ennemy or short passage. Also, the small smoke clouds acts more or less as a decoy, as ennemies will shoot at it or run in for melee (at least in solo; didn't try so much in multi as I play mostly Ash solo). So yes: large area stun will make some other frames abilities useless, while group invisibility will be OP. So I do think it's fine like this.

 

-Teleport: not very usefull for me as it is now; I'd rather see it not bump into enemy and raise his alertness. Combined with Shade's cloak, you can jump next to the guy and then cloak immediately without raising attention. The rest is up to you (stealth kill, stay cloaked and investigate area, jump-cloak to next guy...). I agree that it's no so interesting damage-wise, but still funny for people like me who like the challenge and feeling of a stealth gameplay.

 

-Bladestorm: quite a lot as been said already. Here's something I came with, while checking other threads: first, remove the clones (wait, don't leave yet, read what's next!). Then, make it so that Natural Talent will increase power speed (like considering each kill/animation as a "cast time" and then making each anim faster; Bladestorm would become a real "BladeTornado"!). Also, control over duration can allow to regain the ability to recharge shields when animation plays (or not, if you just want to be fast and don't mind shields, willing to optimize something like Rage). And finaly, apply cloaking 4x damage multiplier for every Bladestorm attack landed while Smoke Cloud is still active; this would be a kind of "self synergy" and also allow to make the whole stuff stealthy, which in my opinion is relevant with Ash' gameplay orientation. From what I've read, looks like you can already have BS damage x4 if you cats it on enemies under Excal' Radial Blind: I think this would still be relevant, as you would ahve the choice between spending 135e on your own or come with a friend and spend less. 

 

This is only my feeling, of course, but seems to me that Ash is more oriented Solo, while Loki (his invisible bro-but-no-so-much-as-it-seems ) is more oriented teamplay. As I said, I solo most of the time, but I prefer Loki for the few missions I make with my buddy (he's playing Mag for now).

 

About female ninja warframe: difficult to balance, I think. Actaully, with 19 different frames, every new one will be hell of a headache to balance... Difficult to come with stealth options which have not been seen already on other frames or new ones which would not be OP (like group invisiblity). So for the moment I think it's irrelevant (unless, of course, somebody comes with great ideas for powers; nothing is written in stone).

[Acos]

I do not mention shields specifically because Bladestorm has limited use in that department now. They'll maybe start to recharge, but it depends on the bulk of enemies you are hitting. No, I mean actually physically dodging attacks as you are still invincible during Bladestorm. So if a hail of missiles are flying at you, simply target the Grineer launching them, and teleport-knife him in the face. You avoid the missiles, he gets stabbed, everyone wins. Sort of. That's what I mean by "dodging" anyway. At no point do I state anything about shields in my original post. 

Additionally, poison damage stops ticking as you are in Bladestorm. So if you notice you become heavily poisoned, bleed, fire, etc, you can pop into Bladestorm and it will generally be gone or at least heavily mitigated by the time you get out. 

You are making the mistake a lot of people make when calculating damage that the bigger the number is, the better the power must be. Ignoring damage, Excalibur's Slash Dash kills several enemies at once for the same cost as Shuriken, which can only ever kill two. So, yes, Shuriken does have very high damage, it is still only ever killing 2 enemies per cast. Then consider that most melee weapons Ash uses are going to be doing anywhere between 1k to 2k per *swing* while invisible and you can probably understand why I find the power to be lack-luster. It simply isn't worth the energy cost compared to alternatives and doesn't do anything a well modded gun couldn't also do for less energy. 

The numbers on Loki's invisibility are internally misunderstood by this community. For Record it is 8s, 35e for Ash, and 12s, 50e for Loki. While Loki has a slightly longer duration, Ash has a much lower cost. Incidentally, Ash is capable of having perma-stealth with the correct selection of mods. People stating that Loki has better invisibility typically are not aware of this.

Bladestorm was still killing targets while I was soloing level 65 enemies in a Pluto survival. Two Passes for normal Corpus, and then several more for the more resilient units. The primary difference between Bladestorm and Smokescreen at that point however was that while Bladestorm was dancing around a single boss, Smokescreen already had him and several other lackeys killed. Beyond a certain distance and at certain HP values Bladestorm is better because it reaches enemies instantly, but even after the changes Smokescreen is still considerably superior damage *provided that you have a good melee weapon* and enemies are relatively close. When to make that distinction is part of playing Ash, but if I was choosing between Smokescreen and Bladestorm, Smokescreen will absolutely deliver much higher values of damage much more consistently and far more safely. 

 

Edited June 8, 2014 by Acos

[GreyEnneract]

-useless-

1. Assuming you are max power build, the energy to efficiency ratio on Shuriken is useless.

2. Teleport can be changed to a wide variety of things.

3. Seems like you're bringing your own want for a frame (which is irrelevant) into this, so Ash isn't changed in a way you don't like.

4.Re-read my post if you think my idea is honestly the same as radial blind.

Edited June 8, 2014 by GreyEnneract

[Rabidbluedeath]

1. Assuming you are max power build, the energy to efficiency ratio on Shuriken is useless.

2. Teleport can be changed to a wide variety of things.

3. Seems like you're bringing your own want for a frame (which is irrelevant) into this, so Ash isn't changed in a way you don't like.

4.Re-read my post if you think my idea is honestly the same as radial blind.

1. You don't need a max power build on Ash for shuriken or bladestorm to be effective, just intensify is fine. I did more testing, you can have 2 bleed procs on the same target. Shuriken can do 3450 damage to one target, 2450 of it being armor and shield ignoring damage Thats before mods. Thats the strongest 1 in the game if I am not mistaken. (Its 1592x2 with intensify, bladestorm with just intensify is 8970 damage per target, 6370 of it being applied directly to health from bleed)

 

2. I agree, I just think a pure mobility skill is better than some complicated amalgamation of abilities that don't work out well and/or no one likes.

 

3. You aren't? Thats all the feedback section is, people saying how want or feel something should work. Can you blame me for not wanting my favorite frame changed in more ways I don't like? If you are still willing to say my want is "Irrelevant" and your change isn't somehow fueled by how you want something to work, or is somehow more relevant than mine, please explain.

 

4. Obfuscation of a general area and a buff to the team is pretty much exactly what radial blind is. I realize radial blind isn't technically making the team invisible, but you are "invisible" if the enemies cant see you. The only difference between radial blind and your proposed change is why they cant see you as far as I can tell. Maybe I am just failing to see how it would be more than a cosmetic difference. Could you explain then please? Also please explain how this change would not de-value radial blind.

[GreyEnneract]

-useless-

 

@3. Saying to make another frame is what's irrelevant. We're talking about Ash's problems, not making another frame that improves on his problems while dropping him. Don't bring up making another frame, make your own thread.

 

@4. My suggestion is that either it stealths allies for the same (or less) duration, or that Ash creates a smoke field where allies and yourself are only invisible while you or your allies are standing inside of said field. Excalibur's radial blind, even without range mods, would be much larger; in Defense for example, if the suggested smokescreen field goes down, enemies can still shoot the pod, whereas Excal's radial blind literally blinds the enemies preventing them from doing so. If you want to talk about Excal, make a thread for Excal. I can easily use the same argument and say that Nyx's Chaos de-values Excal's Radial Blind, and even goes a step further making enemies kill each other.

[Rabidbluedeath]

@3. Saying to make another frame is what's irrelevant. We're talking about Ash's problems, not making another frame that improves on his problems while dropping him. Don't bring up making another frame, make your own thread.

 

@4. My suggestion is that either it stealths allies for the same (or less) duration, or that Ash creates a smoke field where allies and yourself are only invisible while you or your allies are standing inside of said field. Excalibur's radial blind, even without range mods, would be much larger; in Defense for example, if the suggested smokescreen field goes down, enemies can still shoot the pod, whereas Excal's radial blind literally blinds the enemies preventing them from doing so. If you want to talk about Excal, make a thread for Excal. I can easily use the same argument and say that Nyx's Chaos de-values Excal's Radial Blind, and even goes a step further making enemies kill each other.

Thats the thing, I don't see problems where you do. You are trying to fix something I do not see as broken, breaking it in the process. The new frame was a means to meet you in the middle rather than flat out refuse your ideas and how you want a frame to play. That way you could have a frame that does the things you want without taking away the things I like Ash doing. Loki could be his stealth/enfeeble, the new frame could be stealh/enhance and ash could stay stealth/damage. Or hell, make new mod cards so we at least have the option of how we want to play.

 

Assuming I'm reading this correctly the smokeglobe would not keep enemies from shooting the pod? Sounds very troll worthy. An Ash could smokeglobe allies, and the pod would be the only target. Thats not helping ash in defense. If the pod is untargetable it is a new snowglobe, a more over powered version than the pre-nerf globe. It would also make Ash's de-facto role to sit on the pod and fart out a smokeglobe constantly like old frost, which they tried to change so you couldn't do any more. It also sounds basically like radial blind, giving allies a 400% melee boost while making them briefly untargetable. Only difference I can tell is smokeglobe would last longer while being shorter range, Similar to a narrow minded Radial Blind. I'm not trying to derail the thread by talking about excalibur. I'm trying to point out the ability your asking for seems to, more or less, already exist.

[GreyEnneract]

-bye-

Smokescreen lasts 8 seconds without mods. 

Why would the pod become untargetable.

Why would Ash just sit on the pod.

If you bring up Excal again, I'll just ignore you and bump the thread, seeing as you can't retort the Nyx comparison using your same logic.

[SpectreWolfe]

The clones were a lack luster fix for the issues regarding BS.

 

I have made this suggestion many times before. His ultimate should be a combinations of Excalibur's Slash Dash and Valkyr's Hysteria. Ash will go absolutely ape in a Shinobi/Ninja Gaiden manner. He flings out his wrist blades (and just how Excalibur slides across the ground and strikes, but mixed with Valkyr's flurry of attacks) Ash starts swinging, stabbing and striking so fast that it is like a storm of attacks that makes him only invulnerable from the front (as he would be swinging so fast that he would actually be attacking and parrying, bullets and melee, simultaneously. While doing this he would be moving as if he was on ice skates/roller blades (like Slash Dash) only you can control his movements. So he would be gliding around (a bit off the ground) like a snake holding a blender in its mouth and this goes on for a certain duration. For an added bonus you could cast this and SS simultaneously. So with this he could storm through a few groups of enemies (maxed out with mods), shredding everything, before it wears off. For an added visual effect he would have a trail of shadows that followed behind him (Shinobi Ninjitsu style), but this would be cosmetic only.

 

Other than BS...

 

Shuriken would be cool if it could be spammed without the delay by holding the trigger down, but it should still seek targets and have bleed proc. Nothing else necessary.

 

Smoke Screen should just cloak friendlies that Ash is standing on top of, for half the caster's duration. So at max his is 20 secs, teammates/NPCs would get 10 (just and example).

 

Teleport: Free to aim with no finisher, just the ability to start a combo chain, is the best fix. My other idea would be to make it something like Scorpions move where he turns to run from an enemy or just jumps backwards but disappears and ends up behind them with great momentum, capable of striking or not (holding down melee would perform a finisher/ accurate ground pound or just tapping would just do a normal swing to initiate a combo chain). That would be sufficient for combat but not general exploration, but I'll take it. 

 

 

That's all I got.

 

Thanks for reading!

 

Umm... What?

 

That idea for Bladestorm is like... what? I'm not putting down ideas here or anything but I just think there are some issues with that suggestion.

 

1. It wouldn't look anywhere as cool as the current BS

2. It isn't a "storm" anymore, it would be a flurry or a berserk

3. Ash would lose the one thing making him unique

4. It would really aesthetically look really really bad

 

I use Bladestorm as it is to kill far off groups of enemies, murdering them even before they can get close to the team. With the new work on Ash, I can now murder twice as fast and almost everything Ash could target. Adding the suggestion of extending the limit of number of targets for Bs and this will be GOLDEN.

 

Thank you DE for giving  my main frame some loving it deserves.

 

Peace

[GreyEnneract]

Umm... What?

 

That idea for Bladestorm is like... what? I'm not putting down ideas here or anything but I just think there are some issues with that suggestion.

 

1. It wouldn't look anywhere as cool as the current BS

2. It isn't a "storm" anymore, it would be a flurry or a berserk

3. Ash would lose the one thing making him unique

4. It would really aesthetically look really really bad

 

I use Bladestorm as it is to kill far off groups of enemies, murdering them even before they can get close to the team. With the new work on Ash, I can now murder twice as fast and almost everything Ash could target. Adding the suggestion of extending the limit of number of targets for Bs and this will be GOLDEN.

 

Thank you DE for giving  my main frame some loving it deserves.

 

Peace

They made the clones look like Loki's decoys now, so it looks bad again.

[BloodArmoredApostle]

ash is fine actually

[Rabidbluedeath]

Smokescreen lasts 8 seconds without mods. 

Why would the pod become untargetable.

Why would Ash just sit on the pod.

If you bring up Excal again, I'll just ignore you and bump the thread, seeing as you can't retort the Nyx comparison using your same logic.

Not sure where that fits in but ok.

Because if it doesn't ash would be a gigantic liability to the team in defense. An ability that can force the enemies to only attack the pod? You don't see how that could be bad?

If it does obfuscate the pod ash would just be the new frost. Defending a pod would become his only real reason to exist. It would also probably cost 75 energy to use like the globe.

Since you actually want me to acknowledge such a non-sensical point fine. Chaos does not buff the team or keep them from getting attacked, you also have to wait for the timer to run out or kill all the targets before re-casting. The only way chaos and radial blind are similar is they are aoe's centered on the caster affected by duration and range. Their affects are vaguely related at best. A better comparison would have been rhino stomp, which is at least somewhat similar.

 

Also, threatening to ignore me makes it look like I won the argument and you just want to rage quit. I don't think thats what you're trying to achieve. Either way you can ignore me if you want, I wont ignore changes to Ash I wont like however.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Rabidbluedeath

[GreyEnneract]

Bump