Thoughts On Releasing The Aklato Prime And Dual Skana Prime [Please Be Civil And Constructive]

[Fate_6]

The fact that they are bad on top of the fact that they aren't a part of the founders pack makes it all the more ridiculous that anyone would object to their addition on the grounds of founder's exclusivity.

If they're so bad why do you want them? So you can say you have them or because you're jealous that you don't have Lato Prime or Skana Prime and you want the closest thing you can have to them without having them?

Right now you can have Dakra Prime which is basically just a reskinned and improved Skana Prime. I accept that. This thread is now about Dual Dakra Prime.

[mechdeus]

This thread is now about Dual Dakra Prime.

Now that I would be interested in building.

[Fate_6]

They didn't pay for THIS content.  It doesn't matter how mad you are, the fact stands that founders pay for specific content and that is the only thing that they can make any claim of exclusivity on.  There is no different "enough."  It's either different or it's not.  That's why they're able to sell dual weapons and single weapons as separate products.

You say there is only black and white when there is in fact plenty of gray. That's your problem. You live in a very strange world of only absolutes.

 

Now that I would be interested in building.

 

IKR? I wish they were on our hips like the Nikanas though.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Fate_6

[NummiNammi]

I only got the founder pack to get in the Council. Therefore I would be fine with this dual skana prime or aklato prime.

[Aggh]

If they're so bad why do you want them? So you can say you have them or because you're jealous that you don't have Lato Prime or Skana Prime and you want the closest thing you can have to them without having them?

Right now you can have Dakra Prime which is basically just a reskinned and improved Skana Prime. I accept that. This thread is now about Dual Dakra Prime.

Because there's no reason we shouldn't have them.  It's problematic if founders can make a fuss about something like this when they have no actual grounds to claim exclusivity. Every time DE caves to whining on the forums is another lost chance for this community to learn that they are not entitled to everything just because they believe they are.

 

 

 

You say there is only black and white when there is in fact plenty of gray. That's your problem. You live in a very strange world of only absolutes.

 

 

IKR? I wish they were on our hips like the Nikanas though.

No.  Business selling a specific product do not deal in grays, especially game companies.  When you buy an item from them, you are paying for that specific item.  Buying one item does not give you the right to any similar item that company might decide to release.  You have bought what you paid for and nothing else.  That's how purchases work in games.  Otherwise they'd have to deal with this kind of nonsense every time they released a new weapon.  That's why they've been very clear in stating whether an item is exclusive or not , because they are only making specific items exclusive.  Even when discussing the question of exclusivity they've been very clear about what specific items are exclusive or not.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Aggh

[Arkezuli]

Now that I would be interested in building.

 

You can never have enough Dakra Dakka.

Edited June 6, 2014 by CenSilver

[Fate_6]

Because there's no reason we shouldn't have them.  It's problematic if founders can make a fuss about something like this when they have no actual grounds to claim exclusivity. Every time DE caves to whining on the forums is another lost chance for this community to learn that they are not entitled to everything just because they believe they are.

You just don't get it. They DO have grounds to claim exclusivity because the weapons AREN'T completely different. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mutually%20exclusive

DUAL WEAPONS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE OF THEIR SINGLE VARIANTS

In case that wasn't clear, this is the grounds for exclusivity that makes dual variants an infringement of trust on the Founder's packages.

 

 

No.  Business selling a specific product do not deal in grays, especially game companies.  When you buy an item from them, you are paying for that specific item.  Buying one item does not give you the right to any similar item that company might decide to release.  You have bought what you paid for and nothing else.  That's how purchases work in games.  Otherwise they'd have to deal with this kind of nonsense every time they released a new weapon.

 

You do not work for a business, clearly. There is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS a gray area when you are selling a product. For example, I'm in aerospace engineering. Do I make my plane heavier so that it can fly longer distances, but then increase the price (appeals to big airlines, maybe, but not to smaller ones)? There are always questions when making a product.

Yes, you have either bought it or you haven't, you either have 0 or 1. But the definition of what you bought is not black and white. If I bought a Boeing 787 and then it malfunctions did I buy a defective product or did I break it? Will Boeing come fix it? These services (read: NOT THE PHYSICAL PRODUCT) is the gray area we're talking about here. Exclusivity is one service. Dual weapons question that service. If you continue to think they don't then you clearly don't understand the whole situation.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Fate_6

[CrimsonPorpoise]

-snip-

Money doesn't matter. Exclusivity does. At least from my impression with the Founders on the forum, it's the exclusivity they are trying to protect. No matter how much the "New" Founders Programme is going to charge for, they are going to complain. I don't blame them, they gave DE a rather sizable amount of money back when people are either:

A: Doubting that DE can even make Warframe from a concept to a game. (I was in this camp)

B: Never even heard of Warframe.

They took a risk with their wallets then, in exchange for the promise to exclusivity of several items which happens to include the Skana Prime and Lato Prime that is the focus of this thread today. Which is bacially the summery for more than half of this thread.

[Aggh]

You just don't get it. They DO have grounds to claim exclusivity because the weapons AREN'T completely different. 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mutually%20exclusive

DUAL WEAPONS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE OF THEIR SINGLE VARIANTS

In case that wasn't clear, this is the grounds for exclusivity that makes dual variants an infringement of trust on the Founder's packages.

You don't get it.  They don't have to be completely different.

 

And yes, they are mutually exclusive.  That's why they're sold as separate products and have been for the game's entire damn history.  Everything you've said in this post completely contradicts how the @(*()$ game works.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Aggh

[Fate_6]

You don't get it.  They don't have to be completely different.

 

And yes, they are mutually exclusive.  That's why they're sold as separate products and have been for the games entire damn history.

Aklato is CLEARLY not mutually exclusive of Lato. You literally cannot make Aklato without 2 Latos unless you pay money for it.

 

Ah, you finally admit you think they don't have to be completely different. But that's the problem. They do - otherwise you are selling an element of the Founder's package. Rename it Aklato, change the stats, but you still are using the same weapon model. Selling a PART of the Founder's package means the Founder's package is no longer completely exclusive content, it is now only kinda exclusive content.

 

Look, if you want to talk in black and white since you don't understand gray we can make this black and white. Founder's content is either COMPLETELY exclusive or it isn't. What you're suggesting is that it isn't completely exclusive, only partly, because AkLATO PRIME and Dual SKANA PRIME are not mutually exclusive of Lato Prime and Skana Prime in name AND in-game model.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Fate_6

[OniDax]

Two latos is different from a lato.  The fact that you're unable to understand such a simple thing is not only hilarious, but does a great discredit to your argument.  Having a lato in each hand does  look different compared to having one.

 

And again, you're completely and utterly wrong about the dual skana.  Dual skana doesn't have two skanas.  I suggest you go and actually look at them in the game before you try and say that nonsense again.  You might as well say that carrying a katana and wakizashi is the same as carrying two katana.

 

You're trying to get something for nothing on the basis of nonexistent exclusivity.  Stop it.  DE owes you nothing in exchange for making a new weapon that they never made any promises about.

 

The only laughable thing is you trying to say that having two LATO PRIMES isn't the same thing as having a LATO PRIME in each hand. That's laughable.

 

Yeah, I see the difference in the Dual Skanas. "Shorter Skana". Got it. But it's still having a Skana in each hand. You know what, at the end of the day, if they're going to slight the founders, then they'll do that whether people take issue or not. But next they'll give out an Excalibur Prime that has a different pattern and call it by a different name. I'm sure people would be ok with that too, right?

[OniDax]

Also, this is why every single Founders thread is closed. Because you have people who can't accept DE's "No" on the issue of Founders gear. But, like I said earlier, obviously DE plans on releasing an Aklato Prime and a Dual Skana Prime, otherwise they wouldn't have allowed this thread to remain open. So I guess it's a moot point. DE is going to skirt around the issue by releasing these weapons. So much for my trust in them.

[Aggh]

The only laughable thing is you trying to say that having two LATO PRIMES isn't the same thing as having a LATO PRIME in each hand. That's laughable.

 

Yeah, I see the difference in the Dual Skanas. "Shorter Skana". Got it. But it's still having a Skana in each hand. You know what, at the end of the day, if they're going to slight the founders, then they'll do that whether people take issue or not. But next they'll give out an Excalibur Prime that has a different pattern and call it by a different name. I'm sure people would be ok with that too, right?

It's not the same.  The game has literally established that for the whole of its history.  Dual wielded weapons ahve always been separate weapons.  They require a separate slot, potatoes and even have different mod loadouts.  You don't equip two latos, you equip an Aklato.  Visually they certainly are a lato in each hand, but that doesn't stop it from being a different product.  A product that you were never guaranteed as exclusive, ever.

 

It's not slighting founders.  You never had a claim to these weapons, ever.  Having to rely on a slippery slope argument with no basis in fact shows that even you know your argument is terrible.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Aggh

[-Berserk-]

This subject needs to be buried with a big monument that says "Speak Not, Forget Not, The way of the Tenno"

Lets stop talking about something that wont ever have a solution that works for all parties, and lets not Forget what a mistake founders packs turned out to be.

 

Release the gear- Founders get pissed, some leave, write paragraphs of hate towards DE and the new players. Everyone with new founders gear realizes it really isn't worth it and switches back to what they are comfortable with in about a week.

 

Lets not forget what some of the First founders actually did, Before Warframe was what it is now, it wasn't much of anything. Those people saw the potential it had, so much so they forked over money, for some a lot money, to help lay the foundations for the very bright future Warframe has for everyone now.

 

All that being said, if I had not gotten in on the founder program when I did, which was way latter than should have been aloud if I remember correctly, I would be Nodding my virtual head in agreement, "Forget those old guys, I want everything Warframe has to Offer."

 

As a mid level founder without access to weapons, Would I like them? Sure for mastery and bragging rights, but those are the wrong reasons, so no I don't care if I ever even see them in game.

[Aggh]

This subject needs to be buried with a big monument that says "Speak Not, Forget Not, The way of the Tenno"

Lets stop talking about something that wont ever have a solution that works for all parties, and lets not Forget what a mistake founders packs turned out to be.

 

Release the gear- Founders get &!$$ed, some leave, write paragraphs of hate towards DE and the new players. Everyone with new founders gear realizes it really isn't worth it and switches back to what they are comfortable with in about a week.

 

Lets not forget what some of the First founders actually did, Before Warframe was what it is now, it wasn't much of anything. Those people saw the potential it had, so much so they forked over money, for some a lot money, to help lay the foundations for the very bright future Warframe has for everyone now.

 

All that being said, if I had not gotten in on the founder program when I did, which was way latter than should have been aloud if I remember correctly, I would be Nodding my virtual head in agreement, "Forget those old guys, I want everything Warframe has to Offer."

 

As a mid level founder without access to weapons, Would I like them? Sure for mastery and bragging rights, but those are the wrong reasons, so no I don't care if I ever even see them in game.

It still doesn't change the fact that they never paid for these weapons.  Ever.  If DE has to cow to continually cow to a specific demographic of customers, they're not worth keeping.  Clearly they aren't the loyal supporters of the game they claim to be if they think something like this is worth quitting over.  If they had a legimate claim it'd make sense.  But players that would quit over exclusivity that never existed in the first place are not worth keeping, there will always be something new for them to threaten to RQ the game over.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Aggh

[-Berserk-]

It still doesn't change the fact that they never paid for these weapons.  Ever.  If DE has to cow to continually cow to a specific demographic of customers, they're not worth keeping.  Clearly they aren't the loyal supporters of the game they claim to be if they think something like this is worth quitting over.  If they had a legimate claim it'd make sense.  But players that would quit over exclusivity that never existed in the first place are not worth keeping.

 

You're not wrong, but it's less about having them gone and more about how it would make them feel, I think that gets overlooked a lot in this day and age, they are people too, and so are the people left out in the cold, its a no win at this point.

 

discussing it just opens the wound, cant we just let this heal and bare this scar on our community together.

[Doom_Bunny]

Also, this is why every single Founders thread is closed. Because you have people who can't accept DE's "No" on the issue of Founders gear. But, like I said earlier, obviously DE plans on releasing an Aklato Prime and a Dual Skana Prime, otherwise they wouldn't have allowed this thread to remain open. So I guess it's a moot point. DE is going to skirt around the issue by releasing these weapons. So much for my trust in them.

People have accepted that DE won't touch the founders pack. Releasing the dual weapons doesn't fix some players wanting founders or damage the contract agreement that gives founders exclusive ownership to the lato prime, skana prime, Excal prime etc etc etc. They are separate to the founder's weapons and just add more content.

 

Want to know how they are separate? Read the comments!

 

Aggh has been doing nothing but proving that what the founders paid for and the dual weapons are two sperarate things. Yet he doesn't even care if they are released or not. Look how much stamina this guy has and things he has put up with such as going in circles cause other people didn't read the comments. He's only motivation:

 

All I care about is the fact that we should be allowed to have one without people butting their noses into something they have no right to assert a ridiculous claim on.

[Aggh]

You're not wrong, but it's less about having them gone and more about how it would make them feel, I think that gets overlooked a lot in this day and age, they are people too, and so are the people left out in the cold, its a no win at this point.

 

discussing it just opens the wound, cant we just let this heal and bare this scar on our community together.

Feelings aren't something that should be allowed deny content to the entire user base.  It's one thing if it were the actual exclusive weapons that were part of the founders pack, but it's not.  People can have all the feels that they want, but it doesn't give them the right to deny the rest of the player base content that has never been said to be exclusive to anyone or anything.

[-Berserk-]

People have accepted that DE won't touch the founders pack. Releasing the dual weapons doesn't fix some players wanting founders or damage the contract agreement that gives founders exclusive ownership to the lato prime, skana prime, Excal prime etc etc etc. They are separate to the founder's weapons and just add more content.

 

Want to know how they are separate? Read the comments!

 

Aggh has been doing nothing but proving that what the founders paid for and the dual weapons are two sperarate things. Yet he doesn't even care if they are released or not. Look how much stamina this guy has and things he has put up with such as going in circles cause other people didn't read the comments. He's only motivation:

 

"Lets not forget what some of the First founders actually did, Before Warframe was what it is now, it wasn't much of anything. Those people saw the potential it had, so much so they forked over money, for some a lot money, to help lay the foundations for the very bright future Warframe has for everyone now."

 

They do have a claim to it, master and grand master packs where like $100-$150, they paid good money for a cheap pistol and sword, Cheap, the stats are terrible.

 

Cant we just let them have this one thing for being dedicated fans, Besides is it really so terrible that two arguably bad weapons cant be used by the rest of us.

[Ionus]

Because you paid for Lato and prime and skana prime.  You didn't pay for dual skana prime or aklato prime.  Should all the people who spent money on Lex get a refund because dual lex was released?  No.  That's not how businesses work. 

 

And you didn't pay $100 just for exclusive stuff.  You got well over your moneys worth in platinum as well, not to mention design council access.  It doesn't matter if that's not why you bought it, because that makes up a significant part of the founder's packs value.  You got more than your money's worth and DE has no obligation towards you in regards to different weapons.

Just to point out, lex is free. As in, out of the box built for credits.

[Kartumterek]

I like this solution, now we just need a solution for Excalibur prime.

 

there is a solution. pug or make a premade with a Founder and look at his Frame. Thats it

[DeadScream]

why do people complain about missing mastery points, when the most HL weapon you could have is MR 8 and is half the max you can reach when you are a founder... 

 

My only reason to 'want' these weapons it that they look cool. 

 

But heh, I have my Dakra Prime which is (in my mind) my "Skana Prime" and the Lato is not a weapon I like. 

 

I see no problem with exclusive items remaining exclusives. Instead, I'm not even jealous when I see an Excal Prime in a mission. I'm just "Whoaaa, an Excal Prime ! cool !". 

 

:3

[Aggh]

Just to point out, lex is free. As in, out of the box built for credits.

Plenty of people spent plat on it early on in beta even when all weapons (with the inexplicable exception of the Afuris) could be bought for credits.

 

How about the bronco?  Same situation.  It was one of the earliest secondaries and had a Ak variant released ages after it came out, plenty of money was spent on it.  Why don't they get refunds?  'Cause that's not it works :|

Edited June 6, 2014 by Aggh

[Ionus]

Plenty of people spent plat on it early on in beta even when all weapons (with the inexplicable exception of the Afuris) could be bought for credits.

 

How about the bronco?  Same situation.  It was one of the earliest secondaries and had a Ak variant released ages after it came out, plenty of money was spent on it.  Why don't they get refunds?  'Cause that's not it works :|

People didn't pay $100 or $250 for bronco, that's why.

[APBladeX]

Just leave it as it is. There is NO reason to start these threads besides greed for mastery points. There isn't even anything to gain from these mastery levels, you can reach mastery 10 and that's it, nothing else to unlock besides titles. Although, I don't think you understand the term "exclusive". Making akimbo styled variants of these weapons would break the Founders agreement. Please just stop this. I'm not even a Founder, and I don't have any of the event exclusives except for the Rakta Syandana because of my old account being suspended for "suspected fraud". I couldn't care less, because people earned those things. And giving those things back to the playerbase for those who didn't earn them would eliminate that sense of accomplishment. Sorry OP, but I completely disagree.

Edited June 6, 2014 by APBladeX