Thoughts On Releasing The Aklato Prime And Dual Skana Prime [Please Be Civil And Constructive]

[Ionus]

Then it turns into founders giving up what they have been complaining over (for literally the entire thread) just because they want a better version exclusively to themselves. o.o yay better weapons for the founders to sell out what they believe in. Only things ever promised were the single variants. Whereas they could just keep it and allow everyone to have a better version while still keeping the trinket they have held onto for so long. Founders wouldnt lose out from that as they still have their shiny shiny versions to themselves.

 

Since you cannot use a single pistol/blade on its own (the exception being a single pistol whilst carrying a datamass) its registered as a different weapon. Its made from technicalities like stated before that even some founders agreed with (unknowingly ofc). Mk1 braton, braton prime, braton vandal are all different weapons with different stats. Lex, lex prime and aklex are all different weapons with different stats. (you can tell aklex looks quite different from lex since it houses black skin) The argument you would need 2 to make it (making it like having 2 lato primes/skana primes) has no valid point. As no one would have 2 of them, as we are talking IF they were to release it.  Who is to say it couldn't take a few bolto's/akbolto to make (since regular bolto takes a lato) or 4 lato's and some argon to make aklato prime?

 

As long as something is not identical in every way shape or form its not the same item. ofc there are grounds for likeness but the promised DE had given does not state specifically that there will never be another version of the primed skana/lato just that the original lato/skana prime would not be re released. Which was at the start of the game before they got outdated and weaker. In the world of law there are grey areas that can be disputed on. This is one of them, as its not specifically stated that variants would never be re released DE does have the right to make them and it wouldn't break the original deal because it was not clearly defined in such a deal. (vagueness always gives room for dispute) Because this was not clearly defined in the agreement this topic is different from all of the others before it because it is not breaking the deal founders were given. Those asking for lato/skana prime and excalibur prime would have been an instant no because that was clearly defined. (yet some founders like to cling to instant no which can show how much they really understand the situation)

Most founders understand the situation, but when you see people begging DE to cheese it with a LOOPHOLE...

In fact, many people arguing against founders ha e stated that this isn't the solution. Founders will still have that extra mastery because DE is highly unlikely to shut out the founders for these new weapons. On top of all that there will still be people QQing for the single version and founders will undoubtedly be pissed.

This ends up with both sides being butthurt instead of the people wanting the loot.

[dragonkingdx]

Most founders understand the situation, but when you see people begging DE to cheese it with a LOOPHOLE...

In fact, many people arguing against founders ha e stated that this isn't the solution. Founders will still have that extra mastery because DE is highly unlikely to shut out the founders for these new weapons. On top of all that there will still be people QQing for the single version and founders will undoubtedly be &!$$ed.

This ends up with both sides being butthurt instead of the people wanting the loot.

I know it wont solve anything. Its sad though to see such a pack mentality though. Ive seen quite a few who just go "no just cuz no screw you close thread" Those comments are the least productive of them. It seems like people still don't understand that it doesn't break the agreement. That being said im fine with founders being against it because they feel it violates the spirit/trust. Thats fine but all I see is "we were promised, DE said no to re releasing" all over. Those comments literally show the ignorance of the subject on what people were promised. If founders don't grasp what they are and are not entitled to then its very sad that they try to make an argument based off of it.

 

Its not like I cannot understand the founders issue when it comes to this. However I want them to understand the other side and what they as founders have a right to lay a claim on. (because of that pack mentality of no many will indeed just follow what other founders have said. just because they are founders/other founders)

[The_Lunatic_]

I really don't understand how you're struggling to comprehend that two of the same weapon is literally just the same weapon twice.

 

You don't get any founders weapon.

 

Not one. You especially don't get two.

[spacedkadet]

I really don't understand how you're struggling to comprehend that two of the same weapon is literally just the same weapon twice.

 

You don't get any founders weapon.

 

Not one. You especially don't get two.

 

It blows my mind that some people cannot see this.

 

 

 

 

Its not like I cannot understand the founders issue when it comes to this. However I want them to understand the other side and what they as founders have a right to lay a claim on. (because of that pack mentality of no many will indeed just follow what other founders have said. just because they are founders/other founders)

 

Pack mentality? erm no, very much an individuals decission but who in there right mind would buy something that is advertised as a limited time exclusive knowing that it would free at a later date? I'll tell you - no-one!

 

I bought the hunter pack, I paid for it as advertised I got my excalibur and no weapons. You do not see me asking for the lato and skana, I know those that have it paid more for it and I thank each and everyone of them for buying into an early game so it could become what it is today.

[dragonkingdx]

I really don't understand how you're struggling to comprehend that two of the same weapon is literally just the same weapon twice.

 

You don't get any founders weapon.

 

Not one. You especially don't get two.

By your argument bronco and akbrono are the same weap right? Its just the same weapon twice. So why do I have to lvl it/forma it/cata it separately? Why cant it just transfer over since we are just adding 1 more? After all its the same weapon and the one I have formad/catad is being used in the process. It cant because its a separate weapon. o.o it looks like 2 of the same weapon put together but it doesn't register as the same weapon put together does it? Looks yes functionality and classification no. As if it did any cata put on 1 would help with both and all forma placed on 1 should transfer to the set of just putting another one by its side to increase the stats a bit. Thats how the system itself made by DE defy such an argument. While you are right it looks like 2 of the single variants put together the system will not classify it as that thats why its classified as a dual pistol not a single pistol. Dual is a different category then single therefore its different by terms of the system. IE its a different weapon that shares the visual looks (to a degree) of the single counterpart. However because it falls in a different category its no longer considered the same item by the system. Thus defined as a different item

 

o.o I don't see how thats so hard to understand either.

Edited June 8, 2014 by dragonkingdx

[Yezzik]

Because you people paid for exclusive access to the Lato Prime item, not for the Lato Prime and all other Lato Prime variants that might ever come out in the future.

[Azawarau]

Yea, totally different item. Same as if you took 2 Colt 1911 and used them as in each hand. They would not have anything similar to one Colt 1911 because you have more fire rate and possibly higher damage output.

 

 

They dont have any connections because they are two pistols instead of one.

 

 

Such intellect.

 

Very smart.

 

So scholar.

 

Wow.

IRL is different from a game

 

If that were the case then all dual weapons would just be double of most stats with separate mod sets for each

 

What?

 

Not sure of your point here. Comparing a MK1 and a Braton Prime to a Skana Prime/Lato Prime and dual versions doesn't make sense.

Ok

 

Skana and dual skana or lato and aklato

 

Same question as before

[Eidolon_Slayer]

Here's the frustration:
 

You pay $250 for three exclusive items that are never to be released again. After a year, newbies or people who didn't pay, complain that they should get the exclusives too. 

 

We paid $250 for the items, it isn't fair that you who haven't paid should get it too.

 

 

Because you people paid for exclusive access to the Lato Prime item, not for the Lato Prime and all other Lato Prime variants that might ever come out in the future.

 

 

When have you seen 2 prime variants of the same item? Are there 2 Rhino primes? 4 Boltor primes? 50 Mag primes? 20 Dakra primes?

Edited June 8, 2014 by Mikovsky

[Yezzik]

When have you seen 2 prime variants of the same item? Are there 2 Rhino primes? 4 Boltor primes? 50 Mag primes? 20 Dakra primes?

 

Disingenuous argument; none of those can have Ak/Dual variants.

People like to trot out that picture of the Founder page, so I'd like you to take a look at it and tell me where on that page you see any mention of an Aklato Prime item, let alone as an exclusive.

[Eidolon_Slayer]

Disingenuous argument; none of those can have Ak/Dual variants.

People like to trot out that picture of the Founder page, so I'd like you to take a look at it and tell me where on that page you see any mention of an Aklato Prime item, let alone as an exclusive.

 

Because you people paid for exclusive access to the Lato Prime item, not for the <b>Lato Prime and all other Lato Prime variants </b> that might ever come out in the future.

It doesn't work like what they did with the Braton. Lato prime is a single item in itself, there is only one version of it. You're thinking that Aklato Prime is another version of Lato Prime. It's not, they're two different items, and the coding speaks for itself.

[dragonkingdx]

It doesn't work like what they did with the Braton. Lato prime is a single item in itself, there is only one version of it. You're thinking that Aklato Prime is another version of Lato Prime. It's not, they're two different items, and the coding speaks for itself.

So then you agree that aklato prime and lato prime are not the same item. Therfore not a founders item o.o cuz thats basically what you just said

[Eidolon_Slayer]

So then you agree that aklato prime and lato prime are not the same item. Therfore not a founders item o.o cuz thats basically what you just said

I agree they're not the same item. However, do you think DE would pay the hidden cost of having free players run around with dual versions of our prime weapons? 

Edited June 8, 2014 by Mikovsky

[DJ_Redwire]

So then you agree that aklato prime and lato prime are not the same item. Therfore not a founders item o.o cuz thats basically what you just said

 

Can we please stop splitting hairs about a moot issue?

 

Let me be blatantly honest with you. Do you think DE perhaps already has an opinion on this issue of releasing dual variants? Well of course they do, duh. But the real question is, whose side are they already on? Do they sympathize more with a group of individuals who are disappointed there are items in the game that are our of their reach, or do they sympathize more with the equally large group of people who put their investment and trust into them as a company to develop a great game? I hate to break it to you all, but they're biased. They would never admit it as a company, nor should they, but they have shown that they are determined to parallel the interests of those who have shown they wanted to go a step above to support them. The sooner you come to grips with that, the easier it will be to let go of something you can't obtain - single or dual, it makes no difference.

[dragonkingdx]

I agree they're not the same item. However, do you think DE would pay the hidden cost of having free players run around with dual versions of our prime weapons? 

meh thats up to DE and really depends on what the hidden cost would be. Someone is always butthurt and leaves over something or another. So to say that it would butthurt the founders and they would leave if they did or it would effect profits is really a wait and see thing. Wouldn't be abnormal because people leave for various reasons. If its financial that people would say they wont buy plat anymore because of x and x reasons that already would happen in the current game.

 

Its hard to maintain balance when things aren't available to all for free. Once you add price tags then its pay or be weaker than those who can. If eventually paid stuff becomes free its a waiting game where the ones who fund it have the advantage for the time being. With the current scheme its similar to pay to get instantly to have the time advantage of using it. While it maintains balance by being for free with some heavy farming. (well that and pvp isnt a major role so there isnt any real advantage atm) That being said its hard to appease all when people can get things that others cant. As someone will always complain about not having that item

 

Meh its a gamble when you do business since you never really know how the public will react. And ive seen the worst of business after being a mod for a bad gaming company for 2 years. So I also know what outrage gets people and know that people can &!$$ whine and moan all the want about something but it wont change. As well as even if their complaining has merit they will either leave or just get over it. (again from the worst aspect of company wise decisions so ive seen worse case scenario's quite often) 

 

 

Can we please stop splitting hairs about a moot issue?

 

Let me be blatantly honest with you. Do you think DE perhaps already has an opinion on this issue of releasing dual variants? Well of course they do, duh. But the real question is, whose side are they already on? Do they sympathize more with a group of individuals who are disappointed there are items in the game that are our of their reach, or do they sympathize more with the equally large group of people who put their investment and trust into them as a company to develop a great game? I hate to break it to you all, but they're biased. They would never admit it as a company, nor should they, but they have shown that they are determined to parallel the interests of those who have shown they wanted to go a step above to support them. The sooner you come to grips with that, the easier it will be to let go of something you can't obtain - single or dual, it makes no difference.

 

Well look at the thread and you tell me. If its moot why is everyone bringing that up? The sooner people begin to agree with each other the sooner we can move on past that. However because no one wants to give up and agree with someone else on that issue it will continue going. Since the driving argument with founders is that they are the same. (which makes up a large portion of their argument) While the other side believes they are different weapons. Since neither side would willingly agree with the other its put in a stalemate on that point. Going back and forth on that detail while 1 side tries to convince the other that they are right. And unfortunately there isnt a middle ground on that because its a point where it is the same or it is different since it cannot be both its either 1 or the other.

 

Its about ethics which does not play a portion in it but so far people will not get past the is or is not the same factor. I wanted to be sure since so far founders have agreed that they are the same. Seeing a founder agree that its not gives some indication that its possible for founders to understand that they are different just as much as they can understand they are the same. However since the majority cannot get past the same/not the same point we cant move onto the ethics part of it. This the argument always finds its way back to that point

Edited June 8, 2014 by dragonkingdx

[NeyoWargear]

This is insane, these threads are getting a little annoying. There is really no way to please both sides. If you release dual/akimbo variants of exclusive items, it kind of makes the originals redundant, because we all know that having a pistol in each hand is far cooler than a single. If these weapons were re-released when they were promised to only be available  breaks the trust of the Founders. I see no good solution to this problem, but some problems go never getting fixed. I would of grabbed the Lato Prime and Skana Prime, but really, Excalibur Prime was good enough for me. Excalibur was my first Warframe and having a Primed version was awesome. I see why people want them, and why people want them kept in lock and key. If DE were to re-release the Founders' stuff, it'd be a Prime Access with even more stuff, but no Solar Landmark or Design Council. No Hunter, Master, or Grand Master badges. Plus, I think the Founders should get a reimbursement in some way, Platinum or something else. I'm just getting really tried of seeing these threads.

[SmashKazu]

Make unique weapons (Wraith, Vandal and Founder) give no Mastery, problem solved. That is why people most people want it.

 

+1

I don't mind not having these weapons but at least they should not give mastery points.

Having weapons unlock after a certain mastery rank just gives them an advantage because they can unlock them faster and have points we will never get because they're exclusive.

[KBTKaiser]

I'd be fine if we were given a Dex Excalibur Prime as an exclusive founder gift while non founders were allowed to get normal Excalibur Prime.

 

I mean, the whole point of founders gifts was that they'd remain exclusive. The only acceptable way for them to become non-exclusive is if we, the holders of said gifts were given compensation equal to or greater than the value of said gifts. Since refunds or credit towards platinum/prime access would be a silly thing to ask for, the other option would be to have a different set of gifts get handed out. But that wouldn't solve this "problem" of exclusivity. 

 

At the end of the day, there is no real fix for this. Founder gifts will forever remain exclusive.

 

Pulling this from page 8, but I could get behind the idea of DEX variants are gifted/grandfathered in to the Founders if the Prime Variant goes void instead.  Sure, it'll give people the prime variants and founders their exclusive stuff.  The grandfathering method used with the arcane helmets also ensures that they can just keep that item ID as it is(avoiding an entire debacle of rank/mastery programming issues) and move the Prime design assets/names to the newer item ID that will be void drop.  Yes, we lose the exclusivity of the name and appearance, but we still hold on to the given DEX variant that still represents the appreciation of the trust we gave to DE at the start, plus all the Lotus Symbols that come with the DEX variant instead. Sure, we lose the bling, but we gain a literal favored of the Lotus instead.

[cleverboots]

I have just kinda scanned over this viewing all the arguments on both sides, unreasonable and reasonable ones, and the best way I could put this is, I would be okay with it IF and strictly IF they are entirely different designs from the versions obtained by founders.

 

A lot of peoples arguments about this are, oh they are 2 of 1 weapon they have slightly different animations they take different coding to make etc etc etc, no, bs on that, if it is literally the same 1 pistol copy and pasted into the other hand, I don't care how you try to validate that, it is the SAME PISTOL.

 

With the skana there is some other working around that could be done with the 2nd one but if the one in the main hand is still the same skana it is the SAME SKANA, there is not many ifs buts or hows about it you could really do.

 

If and strictly IF they are entirely unique designs from the normal ones, that is time and effort put into a new weapon for all intensive purposes, and I personally don't see a huge issue with that, the original unique "designs" that founders obtained remains intact and original, and while it would still for most purposes be an upgrade in comparison, that shouldn't really be the problem here.

 

After reading through these 28 pages of rage and lava spewed from both sides at eachother and keep in mind, from certain points of view many of them are somewhat valid, I have to wonder why this isn't locked. I know it was allowed to be made but the state it is in now is hardly reasonable.

 

All in all people bringing up breaches of contract and lawsuits and blah blah blah, look, I doubt anyone here would actually follow through with any form of lawsuit because "they shared my toyzes" but one of the few things I think for me that this game has had, is a decent, promise following, hard working company who mean what they say (Unless they are saying they are working on lessening RNG, that is a flat lie) and to be honest I would be very disappointed with them as a whole. That likely means nothing to them or anyone else.

 

Irregardless

TL;DR = IF it is strictly the EXACT SAME MODEL from the UNIQUELY PROMISED ITEM then I personally would be very annoyed, if it is an ENTIRELY UNIQUE model with its own ENTIRELY UNIQUE designs then I do not see how I could personally consider it a breach of any form of contract.

[OniDax]

Same thing I've been trying to get across.

[Verre]

Same thing I've been trying to get across.

 

:l Maybe someone needs to draw it. 

 

1 skana prime + 1 skana prime = Dual skana prime. 

[Azawarau]

:l Maybe someone needs to draw it. 

 

1 skana prime + 1 skana prime = Dual skana prime. 

Its a different thing

[OniDax]

1 + 1 = 2. Say it with me.

[Mesyra]

yes while 1+1=2 and skana p + skana p = dual skana, game code, item id's, and all the akimbo weapons do not work like this, yes its two of the same, please, show me in the menu where you can equip two separate pistols. it isnt there. use some critical thinking skills please.

[dragonkingdx]

yes while 1+1=2 and skana p + skana p = dual skana, game code, item id's, and all the akimbo weapons do not work like this, yes its two of the same, please, show me in the menu where you can equip two separate pistols. it isnt there. use some critical thinking skills please.

im just gonna ask since this has been bugging me. What the heck does this suggestion solve? I mean if its mastery then no players will still be behind, if its for looks then I guess that would solve that somewhat however being a dual version would mean it wouldn't be the same as the original, if its for the feel/likeness then there are other weapons with similar feels to the skana/lato.

 

o.o ive read through the entire thread yet I still cant put my finger on what this suggestion even fixes. If anything it just well does nothing or delays the problem a bit (ofc thats assuming if its about the mastery by giving them a similar weap just to shut some people up for the time being)

Edited June 8, 2014 by dragonkingdx

[KBTKaiser]

Actually, if you scrutinize Dual Skana it's more twin kodachis rather than twin full katanas that everyone keeps insisting that Dual Skana Prime will be.  Dual Heat Sword was also one dagger one sword before they fixed that a few patches back.  It doesn't have to be upgrades.  The way I see it, each of these weapons is the basic entry for single pistol, double pistol, single melee, and dual melee respectively, given how lato, aklato, skana, and dual skana have all been around since closed beta, not as doubles being upgrades to singles like everyone keeps using as the argument point, which doesn't hold much water since lato, aklato, and skana are straight credit buys and dual skana went from high credit price to a blueprint craft.