Thoughts On Releasing The Aklato Prime And Dual Skana Prime [Please Be Civil And Constructive]

[Azawarau]

 Sounds about right. In the case of Excalibur, Lato and Skana Prime it will ALWAYS be the fact that people can't have them now that drives people to want them. They could release a quad-wielding variant of Lato Prime and we'd still see people mention wanting the Founder's Lato Prime in threads.

There will always be people no matter what

 

The only reason ive been aginst it is because of DE stating theyd stay exclusive

 

But honestly dual versions are different and could be released to non founders

[Aggh]

I'm completely neutral.

 

But after spending so much time with the community, I can't help but feel that even if these were released, there will still be people that want the Founders Exclusives.

 

Obviously, that'll never change.

They wouldn't.  Releasing them would just be a content release.  The only way to ever reasonably make founders exclusives available to people who want them is to make them tradeable.  It's the only way to do it without re releasing them and is consequently the only remotely viable way of making them available to non founders.

[Hardlined]

 Sounds about right. In the case of Excalibur, Lato and Skana Prime it will ALWAYS be the fact that people can't have them now that drives people to want them. They could release a quad-wielding variant of Lato Prime and we'd still see people mention wanting the Founder's Lato Prime in threads.

 

Yes, the only way to absolutely end this problem would be to release the items to the rest of the player base. Obviously most of the founders would be pissed (I know a few who would like the items to be obtainable). 

 

The only way I see this to be fixed would be to give a refund to all the founders. DE releases the items as a permanent prime starter pack so all current and future player are able to get them.

 

DE makes all the money that was refunded back and more from current and future purchases. Now that the weapons are available, they may actually be buffed so now founders no longer say the weapons are just collecting dust in their armory.

 

The only people I can imagine that would be against this would be those that value bragging rights over having something that would be good to use in game.

[Azawarau]

They wouldn't.  Releasing them would just be a content release.  The only way to ever reasonably make founders exclusives available to people who want them is to make them tradeable.  It's the only way to do it without re releasing them and is consequently the only remotely viable way of making them available to non founders.

The thing is

 

Founders say no its ours in one end but then on the other they say make it tradeable as a solution

 

Its a bit backwards there and to be honest most people still would never see either of these weapons with how high player pricing and how relatively few the available number are

[Aggh]

Yes, the only way to absolutely end this problem would be to release the items to the rest of the player base. Obviously most of the founders would be &!$$ed (I know a few who would like the items to be obtainable). 

 

The only way I see this to be fixed would be to give a refund to all the founders. DE releases the items as a permanent prime starter pack so all current and future player are able to get them.

 

DE makes all the money that was refunded back and more from current and future purchases. Now that the weapons are available, they may actually be buffed so now founders no longer say the weapons are just collecting dust in their armory.

 

The only people I can imagine that would be against this would be those that value bragging rights over having something that would be good to use in game.

It's not even a remote possibility.  DE has flat out stated that they will never re release founders exclusives.  Again, the only way the issue can even remotely be addressed is through making founders exclusives tradeable.

 

 

 

The thing is

 

Founders say no its ours in one end but then on the other they say make it tradeable as a solution

 

Its a bit backwards there and to be honest most people still would never see either of these weapons with how high player pricing and how relatively few the available number are

True, but since DE has made it quite clear that they'll never re release them, it's really the only way.  Early on you might be able to snag some of them on the cheap.  Some founders really don't like some of the exclusives, to the point where I've seen more than a handful who have claimed to have trashed them to free up slots.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[Azawarau]

It's not even a remote possibility.  DE has flat out stated that they will never re release founders exclusives.  Again, the only way the issue can even remotely be addressed is through making founders exclusives tradeable.

Its not the only way though

 

 

Many solid suggestions have been said

 

Its all on DE to make a move

[Aggh]

Its not the only way though

 

 

Many solid suggestions have been said

 

Its all on DE to make a move

How then? If they can't rerelease them at all, that just leaves the ones people already own.  Other than trading how they supposed to make them available to non founders?

[dragonkingdx]

How then? If they can't rerelease them at all, that just leaves the ones people already own.  Other than trading how they supposed to make them available to non founders?

If it goes to anyone besides the founders it breaks DE's word that they would be exclusive to founders only.

[Aggh]

If it goes to anyone besides the founders it breaks DE's word that they would be exclusive to founders only.

That's not what they promised.  They promised that they would never re release them.

 

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[Blatantfool]

How then? If they can't rerelease them at all, that just leaves the ones people already own.  Other than trading how they supposed to make them available to non founders?

 

 I don't honestly see any reason they have to rerelease them at all. They've said they wont. That is fine.

 

 I'm in favor of DE doing those Dual Primes anyway mostly because they'd be separate weapons entirely, thus not actually encroaching upon the promise DE made to the people who own the singular weapons..

[dragonkingdx]

That's not what they promised.  They promised that they would never re release them.

It breaks the tag that it was exclusive, and by exclusive it was only exclusive for the founders. Its no longer exclusive if its part of common trade.

[The_Lunatic_]

 In my likely unpopular opinion, yeah. I think they should release a Dual Skana Prime and a Dual Lato Prime.

 

As you say, however. It's an unpopular opinion.

 

And given the fact founders also get Design Council, the decision to make exclusive items no longer exclusive would have to go through the Design Council, in which, I'm imaging pretty much everyone would say "No".

[Aggh]

It breaks the tag that it was exclusive, and by exclusive it was only exclusive for the founders. Its no longer exclusive if its part of common trade.

It was exclusive to the founders package.  That doesn't mean that only founders should ever have any access to them.  If a founder wants to trade them off I see no reason why they shouldn't be able to.  It allows people that really want them to get them without making the items any less exclusive and would generate new revenue for DE at the same time.

 

 

 

As you say, however. It's an unpopular opinion.

 

And given the fact founders also get Design Council, the decision to make exclusive items no longer exclusive would have to go through the Design Council, in which, I'm imaging pretty much everyone would say "No".

These aren't exclusives.  The founders packages only included the lato prime and the skana prime.  They are separate weapons from dual variants.  If you had paid for the dual variants and they were exclusive to the package you'd have a point.  You didn't.

 

 

 I don't honestly see any reason they have to rerelease them at all. They've said they wont. That is fine.

 

 I'm in favor of DE doing those Dual Primes anyway mostly because they'd be separate weapons entirely, thus not actually encroaching upon the promise DE made to the people who own the singular weapons..

Making them tradeable isn't re releasing them though.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[The_Lunatic_]

These aren't exclusives.  The founders packages only included the lato prime and the skana prime.  They are separate weapons from dual variants.  If you had paid for the dual variants and they were exclusive to the package you'd have a point.  You didn't.

 

Lol.

 

 

Okay, well, if you think so. But, Given pretty much everyone has disagreed with you, and the people whom work at DE will almost definitely disagree with you, I'm going to just pretend nobody is stupid enough to actually think this.

[Blatantfool]

As you say, however. It's an unpopular opinion.

 

And given the fact founders also get Design Council, the decision to make exclusive items no longer exclusive would have to go through the Design Council, in which, I'm imaging pretty much everyone would say "No".

 

 I'm pretty sure you made that up. In over a year of being a part of this community I've never once seen DE say that if they made a decision like that they had to clear it with DC. If they wanted to do it they'd do it, they don't actually need anyone's permission.

 

 They don't do it because they're cool like that. Simple as that.

 

 

 Besides - that has little to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Dual Prime variants. Separate weapons that I think would be cool to see come into play some day. The big question is 'How best to do it?'

 

 Of course, I'll admit to some bias here. I don't consider 'Don't do it at all' a valid answer. I'm a huge supporter of "More weapons > Less Weapons"

[Aggh]

Lol.

 

 

Okay, well, if you think so. But, Given pretty much everyone has disagreed with you, and the people whom work at DE will almost definitely disagree with you, I'm going to just pretend nobody is stupid enough to actually think this.

Find me a non founder that disagreed.  Then prove that all the founders in this thread disagreed (hint: not all of them did).  If you're not willing to admit to the truth that's your problem.  The burden is on you to prove that you have a right to dictate to DE whether they should release a weapon that they never stated was exclusive for anything.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[The_Lunatic_]

 I'm pretty sure you made that up. In over a year of being a part of this community I've never once seen DE say that if they made a decision like that they had to clear it with DC. If they wanted to do it they'd do it, they don't actually need anyone's permission.

 

 They don't do it because they're cool like that. Simple as that.

 

 

 Besides - that has little to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Dual Prime variants. Separate weapons that I think would be cool to see come into play some day. The big question is 'How best to do it?'

 

 Of course, I'll admit to some bias here. I don't consider 'Don't do it at all' a valid answer. I'm a huge supporter of "More weapons > Less Weapons"

 

You may want to read the description of the Design Council.

 

It would be, at the very least, prudent, for DE to ask the Design Council before duplicating an exclusive item and calling it "New".

 

And if they did, everyone would say "No, let's keep exclusives, actually, you know, exclusive".

 

As this thread has proven.

 

Likewise, there is absolutely no reason why there needs to be a dual variant of primed latos and skanas. And DE has given no evidence they intend to do so.

 

However, on the rare chance they do, in my opinion, the best way would be to make them weapon skins given to founders. Founders get the option to skin their swords as Skana Primes, or dual swords as Two Skana Primes.

 

Likewise with pistols and Latos.

 

Founders paid for exclusive items. Show respect to those who helped fund the game and stop trying to cheat them out of it with dumb "Technicalities".

[Hardlined]

From what I heard, DC has very little say in what goes into the game other than polls and seeing concept art early. If it was something that DE could sell to make money, I doubt they would let you decide. 

[Aggh]

You may want to read the description of the Design Council.

 

It would be, at the very least, prudent, for DE to ask the Design Council before duplicating an exclusive item and calling it "New".

 

And if they did, everyone would say "No, let's keep exclusives, actually, you know, exclusive".

 

As this thread has proven.

 

Likewise, there is absolutely no reason why there needs to be a dual variant of primed latos and skanas. And DE has given no evidence they intend to do so.

 

However, on the rare chance they do, in my opinion, the best way would be to make them weapon skins given to founders. Founders get the option to skin their swords as Skana Primes, or dual swords as Two Skana Primes.

 

Likewise with pistols and Latos.

 

Founders paid for exclusive items. Show respect to those who helped fund the game and stop trying to cheat them out of it with dumb "Technicalities".

They're not dumb technicalities.  You paid money for a specific product that was clearly listed on the website you purchased it from.  Why should you be entitled to dictate the terms of release for an item you never paid for?  It's a very simple question with a very simple answer.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[DJ_Redwire]

From what I heard, DC has very little say in what goes into the game other than polls and seeing concept art early. If it was something that DE could sell to make money, I doubt they would let you decide. 

 

The DC created Nova. Nova has been one of the most purchased Warframes from the market, and probably has made DE a considerable amount of money over the months she's been in the game. Other examples include the player submitted melee weapons that will likely be purchasable from the market - another source of revenue. After that, DE intends to start allowing players to design weapon skins and sell them via the market, and the players get a cut of the platinum for their designs. 

[Blatantfool]

You may want to read the description of the Design Council.

 

It would be, at the very least, prudent, for DE to ask the Design Council before duplicating an exclusive item and calling it "New".

 

And if they did, everyone would say "No, let's keep exclusives, actually, you know, exclusive".

 

As this thread has proven.

 

Likewise, there is absolutely no reason why there needs to be a dual variant of primed latos and skanas. And DE has given no evidence they intend to do so.

 

However, on the rare chance they do, in my opinion, the best way would be to make them weapon skins given to founders. Founders get the option to skin their swords as Skana Primes, or dual swords as Two Skana Primes.

 

Likewise with pistols and Latos.

 

Founders paid for exclusive items. Show respect to those who helped fund the game and stop trying to cheat them out of it with dumb "Technicalities".

 

 

 Longsword weapon class and Dual Sword Weapon class are different things. Same for the Single and Dual Pistols. They'd be different weapons. The tie up is that they share a common origin and appearance.

 

 But I think that is a non-issue. Or, more specifically, I think that is easy for anyone to think up suggestions to keep things nice and tidy.

 

 If they release Dual Prime variants of those two weapons the common sense solution to the drama about exclusivity is:

 

 - Make them relatively easy for Founders to craft, cutting down Mat costs if you own the Singular variant of the Prime.

 

 - Add a unique aesthetic effect to the Dual Primes that shows up for anyone who owns the Singular variant. A 'Founder glow'. Meaning that Founders wielding the Dual weapons are visibly different from someone who isn't.

 

 

 As for 'they've never shown intention of doing so' - they have shown off that Dual Skana happens to exists somewhere in code. It just isn't in the game. If I had to give what I thought was a reasonable guess as to why they haven't brought up releasing Dual variants yet it'd be simple. It isn't time yet. That is something for down the road. It isn't a problem that needs fixing or something players need, so it isn't important. Low priority stuff that is best left for another time.

 

 We're probably not going to be able to help but butt heads on this issue, honestly. It is my belief that you, me, all founders have already received everything DE could possibly owe us for pitching in. You've even got the very real and very serious promise that Exclibur Prime, Lato Prime and Skana Prime will never be obtainable. Founders packs no longer exist to purchase, DE doesn't owe us to keep adding to a purchase we all made a long while ago.

 

 But nowhere in the Founders pack is a vow that a Dual Skana Prime or Dual Lato Prime wont exist. Neither is there any reason to believe DE has promised founders that they'd have to make those similarly exclusive if they ever DID exist.

 

 This is probably one of the more interesting discussions I've read on the forums recently. All this discussion based around the idea of two hypothetical weapons and whether or not Founders should considered themselves entitled to them.

[Kartumterek]

Yes, the only way to absolutely end this problem would be to release the items to the rest of the player base. Obviously most of the founders would be &!$$ed (I know a few who would like the items to be obtainable). 

 

The only way I see this to be fixed would be to give a refund to all the founders. DE releases the items as a permanent prime starter pack so all current and future player are able to get them.

 

DE makes all the money that was refunded back and more from current and future purchases. Now that the weapons are available, they may actually be buffed so now founders no longer say the weapons are just collecting dust in their armory.

 

The only people I can imagine that would be against this would be those that value bragging rights over having something that would be good to use in game.

I don't want a refund. So no thank you. Getting a refund is like taking back support for the game which was the whole point of the Founder package.

Since you can't trade built weapons (and for good reason, pay to win which everyone allegedly is opposed to) trading is a moot point. The whole wannabe loophole is moot actually

[Hardlined]

I don't want a refund. So no thank you. Getting a refund is like taking back support for the game which was the whole point of the Founder package.

Since you can't trade built weapons (and for good reason, pay to win which everyone allegedly is opposed to) trading is a moot point. The whole wannabe loophole is moot actually

 

Then this issue can never be fixed, it can only be ignored. People will continue to post threads wanting these items and the items will continue to collect dust in founder's inventory. People will still want them and founder's will respond with "I never use them because their stats are bad", or just "no". 

[Mithie]

 Longsword weapon class and Dual Sword Weapon class are different things. Same for the Single and Dual Pistols. They'd be different weapons. The tie up is that they share a common origin and appearance.

 

 But I think that is a non-issue. Or, more specifically, I think that is easy for anyone to think up suggestions to keep things nice and tidy.

 

 If they release Dual Prime variants of those two weapons the common sense solution to the drama about exclusivity is:

 

 - Make them relatively easy for Founders to craft, cutting down Mat costs if you own the Singular variant of the Prime.

 

 - Add a unique aesthetic effect to the Dual Primes that shows up for anyone who owns the Singular variant. A 'Founder glow'. Meaning that Founders wielding the Dual weapons are visibly different from someone who isn't.

 

 

 As for 'they've never shown intention of doing so' - they have shown off that Dual Skana happens to exists somewhere in code. It just isn't in the game. If I had to give what I thought was a reasonable guess as to why they haven't brought up releasing Dual variants yet it'd be simple. It isn't time yet. That is something for down the road. It isn't a problem that needs fixing or something players need, so it isn't important. Low priority stuff that is best left for another time.

 

 We're probably not going to be able to help but butt heads on this issue, honestly. It is my belief that you, me, all founders have already received everything DE could possibly owe us for pitching in. You've even got the very real and very serious promise that Exclibur Prime, Lato Prime and Skana Prime will never be obtainable. Founders packs no longer exist to purchase, DE doesn't owe us to keep adding to a purchase we all made a long while ago.

 

 But nowhere in the Founders pack is a vow that a Dual Skana Prime or Dual Lato Prime wont exist. Neither is there any reason to believe DE has promised founders that they'd have to make those similarly exclusive if they ever DID exist.

 

 This is probably one of the more interesting discussions I've read on the forums recently. All this discussion based around the idea of two hypothetical weapons and whether or not Founders should considered themselves entitled to them.

 

I'm okay with the release of the dual prime versions provided that they're done in a sensible way.

 

I think, if you're going to approach this from a standpoint of what the founders are entitled to, then you're opening up a whole casket of worms. The goal should be to increase content variety to benefit the community rather than create a conflict between what founders and non-founders perceive as exclusive.

 

So if the dual primes are going to be released, they need to be done in such a way as to both respect the community at large and the founders who paid a significant amount of money for the single versions. I don't care what you think you're entitled to, or the lettering of the founder's package, because I don't think that's important. Nothing is binding and we're all customers of DE. When we bought the founder's package, we didn't sign a contract, and DE wasn't obligated to give us anything aside from what was in the package. There was no legal binding associated with being a founder, so why debate from that direction? We put forward some money to support DE, and we trust them, in good faith, to deliver the goods. So figuring out the lettering of what we actually bought isn't productive, and it only goes to fuel community conflict.

 

I've been supportive of releasing the founder's gear to the community for a long time now, and I think the best way to do it is just to release everything. Release the dual versions along with the single versions. Whoever wants them can get them. In return, give the founders unique cosmetic skins or other non-gameplay related perks. Communicate to the founders that "look, exclusive gear was a bad idea. We're sorry. In return, here are some awesome cosmetic exclusives to have as replacement." I'd go with that.

 

You want to end this founder's gear argument for good? This is the way to do it; not half-@$$ it through a "loophole". 

Edited June 9, 2014 by mithie2

[Aggh]

I'm okay with the release of the dual prime versions provided that they're done in a sensible way.

 

I think, if you're going to approach this from a standpoint of what the founders are entitled to, then you're opening up a whole casket of worms. The goal should be to increase content variety to benefit the community rather than create a conflict between what founders and non-founders perceive as exclusive.

 

So if the dual primes are going to be released, they need to be done in such a way as to both respect the community at large and the founders who paid a significant amount of money for the single versions. I don't care what you think you're entitled to, or the lettering of the founder's package, because I don't think that's important. Nothing is binding and we're all customers of DE. When we bought the founder's package, we didn't sign a contract, and DE wasn't obligated to give us anything aside from what was in the package. There was no legal binding associated with being a founder, so why debate from that direction? We put forward some money to support DE, and we trust them, in good faith, to deliver the goods. So figuring out the lettering of what we actually bought isn't productive, and it only goes to fuel community conflict.

 

I've been supportive of releasing the founder's gear to the community for a long time now, and I think the best way to do it is just to release everything. Release the dual versions along with the single versions. Whoever wants them can get them. In return, give the founders unique cosmetic skins or other non-gameplay related perks. Communicate to the founders that "look, exclusive gear was a bad idea. We're sorry. In return, here are some awesome cosmetic exclusives to have as replacement." I'd go with that.

 

You want to end this founder's gear argument for good? This is the way to do it; not half-@$$ it through a "loophole". 

You can't ask for a special treatment and say that whether you deserve special treatment or not is irrelevant.  By asking for it you are making it relevant.

 

Dual variants shouldn't even be a part of the founders gear discussion since they were never founders gear in the first place.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh