Thoughts On Releasing The Aklato Prime And Dual Skana Prime [Please Be Civil And Constructive]

[Mithie]

You can't ask for a special treatment and say that whether you deserve special treatment or not is irrelevant.  By asking for it you are making it relevant.

 

Dual variants shouldn't even be a part of the founders gear discussion since they were never founders gear in the first place.

 

I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm asking for a compromised solution where everyone gets what they want without unnecessarily &!$$ing off the founders.

 

Everyone else gets the cool founder's gear, dual and single versions, and the founders get something non-gameplay affecting as a compensation. 

 

No more arguments about founders having an unfair advantage in gameplay, and no more arguments from founders about how useless the prime gear is.

Edited June 9, 2014 by mithie2

[Aggh]

I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm asking for a compromised solution where everyone gets what they want without unnecessarily &!$$ing off the founders.

 

Everyone else gets the cool founder's gear, dual and single versions, and the founders get something non-gameplay affecting as a compensation. 

 

No more arguments about founders having an unfair advantage in gameplay, and no more arguments from founders about how useless the prime gear is.

Asking for a compromise on something that you don't have any claim to is special treatment.  Why should DE have to break their word on founders gear in order to release some weapons they don't owe any exclusivity on?  Blatant fool's compromise is the best so far but it still is ridiculous that there should need to be one since founders are owed nothing on these weapons.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[Blatantfool]

 That is the most desirable outcome, yeah Mithie2. For the issue to be over with everyone feeling reasonably good.

 

 Though I'm still okay with DE not releasing the Founders gear, personally. It doesn't really bother me.

 

 I mean, yes. Absolutely. I'd like to get those two missing weapons. Sure. But I understand why DE doesn't release them. I'm willing to give em that and just ignore it. For me, personally, it is just two items. For Non-founders it is just 3.

 

 Whether they do or don't, not a huge deal to me.

 

 

 Really I just came into this discussion to share that I think Dual Prime variants should be a thing and should not be exclusive, however Founders should receive at least some level of nod since the origin of those Dual Primes would be exclusive gear.

[TC-Guardian]

I think if they did end up bringing in Dual Skana or Aklato Prime, then a semi compromise would be to make it that it was platinum only, that Founders of the appropriate level get them by default, and that founders of the appropriate level also get an exclusive skin for these weapons.

Eg: Master: auto gets Dual SKana Prime, with DSkana Prime Founder Skin

Grand master gets DSkana P and Aklato Prime with Founder skins for them both.

(Though I still don't like the idea of a loop hole being exploited to please those who can't accept that exclusive is exclusive)

[Aggh]

I think if they did end up bringing in Dual Skana or Aklato Prime, then a semi compromise would be to make it that it was platinum only, that Founders of the appropriate level get them by default, and that founders of the appropriate level also get an exclusive skin for these weapons.

Eg: Master: auto gets Dual SKana Prime, with DSkana Prime Founder Skin

Grand master gets DSkana P and Aklato Prime with Founder skins for them both.

(Though I still don't like the idea of a loop hole being exploited to please those who can't accept that exclusive is exclusive)

Again, this still assumes that you have any right to special treatment for these weapons.  When did any founder pay for aklato or dual skana?  When were they promised that AKlato and Dual skana wouldn't be released?  When were there any promises of exclusivity beyond the specific items in founders packs?  Why does the founders pack have to extended beyond what you paid for?

 

Little nods like crafting cost decreases or not having to farm the BP are a compromise.  Asking for free stuff because a new product is based off a weapon you have is a different story.  If these were released they should be put into the void and prime access packs just like any other prime.  That means that just like any other weapon the game it's pay or grind.  Asking for special treament that you never earned would just be cutting into DE's revenue on these items.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[DJ_Redwire]

Again, this still assumes that you have any right to special treatment for these weapons.  When did any founder pay for aklato or dual skana?  When were they promised that AKlato and Dual skana wouldn't be released?  When were there any promises of exclusivity beyond the specific items in founders packs?  Why does the founders pack have to extended beyond what you paid for?

 

And why should DE release dual variants? Just because they can? Just because you want them to? See how lots of rhetorical questions make for a thin argument?

[Mithie]

 That is the most desirable outcome, yeah Mithie2. For the issue to be over with everyone feeling reasonably good.

 

 Though I'm still okay with DE not releasing the Founders gear, personally. It doesn't really bother me.

 

 I mean, yes. Absolutely. I'd like to get those two missing weapons. Sure. But I understand why DE doesn't release them. I'm willing to give em that and just ignore it. For me, personally, it is just two items. For Non-founders it is just 3.

 

 Whether they do or don't, not a huge deal to me.

 

 

 Really I just came into this discussion to share that I think Dual Prime variants should be a thing and should not be exclusive, however Founders should receive at least some level of nod since the origin of those Dual Primes would be exclusive gear.

 

Yeah, and that's fair enough. The thing is, you and I have both been around long enough to see this issue pop up over and over again. To me, that seems like it's a pretty major issue within the community. I don't think releasing the dual prime versions will solve a thing, and it only goes to muddy the waters even further. 

 

If we, as a community, want to put an end to this and go forward with a clear stance on what exclusivity is, it's best to go all the way. No more arguments from either side. No more debate on what founders are and aren't entitled to and how special we are. Fix it at its core and move on.

 

Asking for a compromise on something that you don't have any claim to is special treatment.  Why should DE have to break their word on founders gear in order to release some weapons they don't owe any exclusivity on?  Blatant fool's compromise is the best so far but it still is ridiculous that there should need to be one since founders are owed nothing on these weapons.

 

You know, if you're going to go the lawyer route, the founder's package wasn't a product transaction. It was marketed as a pledge. For all we know, the game could have died in its infancy and failed miserably. There was no stipulation that the exclusive gear was going to remain exclusive forever. Heck, look at the design council - it was no longer exclusive to founders and the game improved because of it. You know what founders are entitled to? NOTHING. 

 

It's not an exchange of money for product. There is no product. It's an exchange of trust, and any founder who believe otherwise is delusional.

 

So if you're going to argue this from a standpoint of what we're entitled to, it's really a waste of time. DE can take away all founder perks tomorrow and nobody would win a lawsuit to say otherwise.

 

I'm pointing out that with trust comes respect, and DE should compromise with the founders in order to improve the game for the whole community and give the founders a nod of respect in return. They don't HAVE to do this. They are not LEGALLY bound. But it would be a nice gesture.

Edited June 9, 2014 by mithie2

[Aggh]

And why should DE release dual variants? Just because they can? Just because you want them to? See how lots of rhetorical questions make for a thin argument?

To make money?  Why shouldn't they release them?

 

 

Yeah, and that's fair enough. The thing is, you and I have both been around long enough to see this issue pop up over and over again. To me, that seems like it's a pretty major issue within the community. I don't think releasing the dual prime versions will solve a thing, and it only goes to muddy the waters even further. 

 

If we, as a community, want to put an end to this and go forward with a clear stance on what exclusivity is, it's best to go all the way. No more arguments from either side. No more debate on what founders are and aren't entitled to and how special we are. Fix it at its core and move on.

 

 

You know, if you're going to go the lawyer route, the founder's package wasn't a product transaction. It was marketed as a pledge. There was no stipulation that the exclusive gear was going to remain exclusive forever. Heck, look at the design council - it was no longer exclusive to founders and the game improved because of it. You know what founders are entitled to? NOTHING. 

 

It's not an exchange of money for product. There is no product. It's an exchange of trust, and any founder who believe otherwise is delusional.

 

So if you're going to argue this from a standpoint of what we're entitled to, it's really a waste of time. DE can take away all founder perks tomorrow and nobody would win a lawsuit to say otherwise.

 

I'm pointing out that with trust comes respect, and DE should compromise with the founders in order to improve the game for the whole community and give the founders a nod of respect in return. They don't HAVE to do this. They are not LEGALLY bound. But it would be a nice gesture.

Before you try to make an argument like that, you might actually want to make sure you know what you're talking about :|

 

 

Technically it's the exchange of money for a service of which the items in game a part of and you pay to use them.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[Mithie]

To make money?  Why shouldn't they release them?

 

 

Before you try to make an argument like that, you might actually want to make sure you know what you're talking about :|

 

Didn't say which items though, does it? The founder's badge is certainly exclusive.

Besides, that's not a contract.

Edited June 9, 2014 by mithie2

[TC-Guardian]

Again, this still assumes that you have any right to special treatment for these weapons.  When did any founder pay for aklato or dual skana?  When were they promised that AKlato and Dual skana wouldn't be released?  When were there any promises of exclusivity beyond the specific items in founders packs?  Why does the founders pack have to extended beyond what you paid for?

So if they brought out Excalibur Prime Prime (Silly example but its really not that far off) you wouldn't be pissed that your excalibur prime, the reward and thank you for your trusting support, has been made obsolete and free to the masses?

Making dual or ak of the exclusives is just exploiting the loop hole. Sure they can do it, we can't stop them as you say they aren't our to claim, but its pretty much like crapping in the faces of all the founders who supported the game from the get go.

[DJ_Redwire]

To make money?  Why shouldn't they release them?

 

You know what else makes money? Retaining players - especially players who've already forked over large sums of it. And that's what releasing dual variants will do - push those people away. It may seem silly, it may seem unreasonable, but that's what will happen - and DE knows it. You can argue it till the cows come home that players can't really be that foolish to leave the game over such a minor issue, but they will. It's not really a matter of opinion at that point.

Edited June 9, 2014 by DJ_Redwire

[Aggh]

Didn't say which items though, does it? The founder's badge is certainly exclusive.

Besides, that's not a contract.

That page was on there next to the founders packages from the get go.  Even DE has admitted that because of the wording of the founders packages they can't re release them.

 

 

 

 

You know what else makes money? Retaining players - especially players who've already forked over large sums of it. And that's what releasing dual variants will do - push those people away. It may seem silly, it may seem unreasonable, but that's what will happen - and DE knows it. You can argue it till the cows come home that players can't really be that foolish to leave the game over such a minor issue, but they will. It's not really a matter of opinion at that point.

Founders make a much smaller precentage of the paying player base than they'd wish.  Especially with the addiont of Ps4, there's only so many times you can throw a tantraum before they have to call your bluff.  I'd be willing to bet most founders wouldn't actually quit.  People try to pull that nonsense in games all the time and most of them tend to be lying through their teeth.

 

 

So if they brought out Excalibur Prime Prime (Silly example but its really not that far off) you wouldn't be &!$$ed that your excalibur prime, the reward and thank you for your trusting support, has been made obsolete and free to the masses?

Making dual or ak of the exclusives is just exploiting the loop hole. Sure they can do it, we can't stop them as you say they aren't our to claim, but its pretty much like crapping in the faces of all the founders who supported the game from the get go.

Personally?  No.  It's just bling and like most founders I rarely use it.  Especially after proto skin came out.  I really can't understand all the whining surround founders stuff.  It's subpar bling and we don't lose anything for other people getting it.

 

Loophole shmoophole.  That's just you trying to cast it in a bad light because you can't come up with a legitimate reason for it not to be released.  You never got any promises about dual variants so you don't have any kind of entitlement regarding them.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[Mithie]

That page was on there next to the founders packages from the get go.  Even DE has admitted that because of the wording of the founders packages they can't re release them.

 

 

 

Won't hold up in court

[Blatantfool]

Yeah, and that's fair enough. The thing is, you and I have both been around long enough to see this issue pop up over and over again. To me, that seems like it's a pretty major issue within the community. I don't think releasing the dual prime versions will solve a thing, and it only goes to muddy the waters even further. 

 

If we, as a community, want to put an end to this and go forward with a clear stance on what exclusivity is, it's best to go all the way. No more arguments from either side. No more debate on what founders are and aren't entitled to and how special we are. Fix it at its core and move on.

 

 I don't think this is the sort of issue we'll ever see an end to. It isn't actually this huge a deal in the community, it is a steady and predictable stream of reactions that pop up from time to time. It is something people take issue with, but there are much bigger problems.

 

 Just about anyone hates being completely unable to obtain something in a game. Legitimately having something be impossible to have, not because you aren't skilled enough or don't have time to earn it but because you simply aren't allowed to have it because you missed your chance. It is a crap way to miss out.

 

 So there will always - and I do mean always - be this portion of the community who is showing a steady stream of "Man I hate that." when they discuss it. 

 

 Most of the time, when you see a new thread about it pop, it is some guy who has been around for roughly two months and he's just finally getting around to expressing the stuff that ticks him off on the forums. So here comes "Exclusivity thread #???" as he starts to try to share feedback. Most forumgoers, especially new blood, just make a totally fresh thread instead of finding one already running. Responses in those threads generally fall into two camps - people throwing the "Never coming back" stuff at the OP and people saying "Yeah, I feel you. It sucks." and similar.

 

 And there is ALWAYS going to be another thread. This will never actually go away. In fact, even if DE put the Founders trio into the drop tables next patch there would STILL be threads bringing up a general disdain for exclusivity. They'd just move on to Braton and Lato Vandal or bring up the Event items issue as their sole example instead.

[Aggh]

Won't hold up in court

In all likelihood it woulld, especially since DE has repeatedly said many times that they would not re release them.  Many states advertising laws aren't so simple that merely arguing that something was not explicitly said will free them of any libaility.  Especially when DE has explicitly said many times that founders items won't be re released.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[Kartumterek]

Then this issue can never be fixed, it can only be ignored. People will continue to post threads wanting these items and the items will continue to collect dust in founder's inventory. People will still want them and founder's will respond with "I never use them because their stats are bad", or just "no".

The issue has never been broken so there is nothing to fix. Its not my fault that you don't like the answer.

Just like how I don't like the choice DE is making with coptering. Unlike you guys though I just chalk it up as a loss and deal with it. I suggest you guys do the same

[TC-Guardian]

Personally?  No.  It's just bling and like most founders I rarely use it.  Especially after proto skin came out.  I really can't understand all the whining surround founders stuff.  It's subpar bling and we don't lose anything for other people getting it.

Well you don't think we lose anything, but I think I do, and by the looks of it, so do most other Founders. To me, I put a lot of cash on the line with a game that was still very new, and could flop at any minute. I put my faith in DE that they could take the money, more than I had spent on any game previously, and use it to make a better and more amazing game. DE did not have to include anything with this deal, but they did, they added in Excalibur Prime, and Skana Prime as a thank you, along with the promise that these would remain exclusive to us, so we could use them with pride so we could show that we had done our part in making the game what it is, and is becoming. 

As founders this was a leap of faith, which we had to put a fair amount on the line for it, and were thankfully rewarded for it. Taking those rewards, and giving their likeness (except better) out to anyone with out them having to first make that leap of faith, really just rubs it in the face of the Founders.

It would be like saying: "Hey, thanks for helping us along, but you're useless us now, so we don't care about you".

The whole reason these weapons are being screamed for is because people want what they can't get, so they are going for the next best thing. I think the Founders would probably care less if everyone was getting Skana Prime, and Lato Prime, while they got Aklato Prime and Skana Prime.

Also, "With 207 missions and every mission having 6-9 Solar Landmarks (as of 5-10-2013), over $388,000 USD has been donated from the Grand Master program alone." I would like to think that DE had a greater moral standing than to degrade the people who supported them with this kind of money when they needed it most.

[Kartumterek]

Well you don't think we lose anything, but I think I do, and by the looks of it, so do most other Founders. To me, I put a lot of cash on the line with a game that was still very new, and could flop at any minute. I put my faith in DE that they could take the money, more than I had spent on any game previously, and use it to make a better and more amazing game. DE did not have to include anything with this deal, but they did, they added in Excalibur Prime, and Skana Prime as a thank you, along with the promise that these would remain exclusive to us, so we could use them with pride so we could show that we had done our part in making the game what it is, and is becoming. 

As founders this was a leap of faith, which we had to put a fair amount on the line for it, and were thankfully rewarded for it. Taking those rewards, and giving their likeness (except better) out to anyone with out them having to first make that leap of faith, really just rubs it in the face of the Founders.

It would be like saying: "Hey, thanks for helping us along, but you're useless us now, so we don't care about you".

The whole reason these weapons are being screamed for is because people want what they can't get, so they are going for the next best thing. I think the Founders would probably care less if everyone was getting Skana Prime, and Lato Prime, while they got Aklato Prime and Skana Prime.

Also, "With 207 missions and every mission having 6-9 Solar Landmarks (as of 5-10-2013), over $388,000 USD has been donated from the Grand Master program alone." I would like to think that DE had a greater moral standing than to degrade the people who supported them with this kind of money when they needed it most.

Everyone wants to show support AFTER the fact. A LOT of us are like you, myself included. I waited and waited on hitting that buy button because it was a lot of money on something that wasn't certain would even be around.

[Aggh]

Well you don't think we lose anything, but I think I do, and by the looks of it, so do most other Founders. To me, I put a lot of cash on the line with a game that was still very new, and could flop at any minute. I put my faith in DE that they could take the money, more than I had spent on any game previously, and use it to make a better and more amazing game. DE did not have to include anything with this deal, but they did, they added in Excalibur Prime, and Skana Prime as a thank you, along with the promise that these would remain exclusive to us, so we could use them with pride so we could show that we had done our part in making the game what it is, and is becoming. 

As founders this was a leap of faith, which we had to put a fair amount on the line for it, and were thankfully rewarded for it. Taking those rewards, and giving their likeness (except better) out to anyone with out them having to first make that leap of faith, really just rubs it in the face of the Founders.

It would be like saying: "Hey, thanks for helping us along, but you're useless us now, so we don't care about you".

The whole reason these weapons are being screamed for is because people want what they can't get, so they are going for the next best thing. I think the Founders would probably care less if everyone was getting Skana Prime, and Lato Prime, while they got Aklato Prime and Skana Prime.

Also, "With 207 missions and every mission having 6-9 Solar Landmarks (as of 5-10-2013), over $388,000 USD has been donated from the Grand Master program alone." I would like to think that DE had a greater moral standing than to degrade the people who supported them with this kind of money when they needed it most.

Exactly,  They added those specific items as a thank you.  Nothing more, nothing less.  And no, it's more like "hey, here's a new weapon.  Buy it or grind for it or don't bother with it."  Just like any other weapon that you haven't spent any money on.  I don't know about where you live, but in the real world you get what you pay for.  Expecting more than that is greedy.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[Mithie]

In all likelihood it woulld, especially since DE has repeatedly said many times that they would not re release them.  Many states advertising laws aren't so simple that merely arguing that something was not explicitly said will free them of any libaility.  Especially when DE has explicitly said many times that founders items won't be re released.

With all likelihood, it won't. The "advertisement" is nowhere near specific enough to act as a hard contractual agreement, nor it should be.

DE has also said a lot of things, but as time goes on, things change, things like design council privileges. I don't expect DE to withhold content at the expense of the quality of the game.

 

What DE has done for the founder's program should be out of respect and trust for the founders, and I expect them to act in alignment of that respect and trust. 

 

I'm 100% against exclusive gear which impacts gameplay. I'm 100% in favor of cosmetic perks which do not affect gameplay. I believe this is how the game can improve.

But I also believe, and I strongly trust that DE will, realize this statement with respect and in line with the expectations of the founder's program.

 

It's an expectation. Not a demand. Not an entitlement. And that's what I'm expecting - a decent compromise to shut down these exclusivity arguments once and for all so there won't be such a rift in the community going forward. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by mithie2

[TC-Guardian]

Exactly,  They added those specific items as a thank you.  Nothing more, nothing less.  And no, it's more like "hey, here's a new weapon.  Buy it or grind for it or don't bother with it."  Just like any other weapon that you haven't spent any money on.

 Or as I see it "Here is those weapons that you should only be able to get after some serious devotion and financial commitment, no wait, here is two of each, and here they are for free."

Releasing the exclusives and compensating the Founders with something that doesn't affect gameplay could be an ok middle ground.

Maybe give Founders of Hunter up a Liset Prime, and then for Master and Grandmaster, have special features for the lisets which are exclusive to each, such as a faster foundry, or unlimited inventory.

Another option could be to make it so the Founders can Trade their Exclusives. This way, if someone is willing to spend the sort of money it cost to have become a founder, they can spend it on plat to purchase the exclusives off of a Founder who does not care for their exclusives.

Edited June 9, 2014 by TC-Guardian

[OldGodKing]

Why are people still bringing this up again? Founders pack is/was/will still be exclusive. End of story.

[Aggh]

 

With all likelihood, it won't. The "advertisement" is nowhere near specific enough to act as a hard contractual agreement, nor it should be.

DE has also said a lot of things, but as time goes on, things change, things like design council privileges. I don't expect DE to withhold content at the expense of the quality of the game.

 

What DE has done for the founder's program should be out of respect and trust for the founders, and I expect them to act in alignment of that respect and trust. 

 

I'm 100% against exclusive gear which impacts gameplay. I'm 100% in favor of cosmetic perks which do not affect gameplay. I believe this is how the game can improve.

But I also believe, and I strongly trust that DE will, realize this statement with respect and in line with the expectations of the founder's program.

 

It's an expectation. Not a demand. Not an entitlement. And that's what I'm expecting - a decent compromise to shut down these exclusivity arguments once and for all so there won't be such a rift in the community going forward. 

This is one of the few things they've explicitly said multiple times will never.  They have literally said they can never do it and will  never do it and their studio lead is the one saying it.

 

>Implying that any lato or skana would noticeably affect gameplay

 

 Or as I see it "Here is those weapons that you should only be able to get after some serious devotion and financial commitment, no wait, here is two of each, and here they are for free."

Except DE would never say that since they've been selling dual variants as a separate product for the game's entire history.  Only whiny founders could possibly be so blind to how weapons have been sold in this game for so long :|

Edited June 9, 2014 by Aggh

[.ERO.]

"A lot of it comes from the attitude of many of the Founders who come storming en masse into topics like this one, deploy a blanket "no" and then pat themselves on the back for doing such a good job and defending their shinies against the scrubs like myself."

 

Because scrubs have been doing it the second after the verrrrry extended and expensive offer ended.

When a post like this is made almost every day by people who do not seem to understand why the gear is exclusive, it gets pritty tiresome.

The Excal, Lato and Skana are not just some pre-order bonus.

 

We worked for that money and we invested it in a new game that looked promising. Our investment gave you everything you see outside of the standard basic corpus ship tileset, every enemy other than the stock basic, all the awesome updates, weapons and frames. Our added incentive and reward was some average gear that has now become under-performing gear. A mere relic of the world we wanted to work.

[Mithie]

This is one of the few things they've explicitly said multiple times will never.  They have literally said they can never do it and will  never do it and their studio lead is the one saying it.

 

>Implying that any lato or skana would noticeably affect gameplay

 

 

They do affect gameplay, noticeably or not. Fact of the matter is, DE needs to take a stance. Exclusivity vs. non-exclusivity. Once you release dual skana and dual latos, people will want excal prime and the single variants. Once those are released, people will move on to the vandals.

 

Fact of the matter is, exclusivity hurts the game and fractures the community.

 

So get rid of it.