Thoughts On Releasing The Aklato Prime And Dual Skana Prime [Please Be Civil And Constructive]

[cleverboots]

I'm still in favour of Dex variants of the Founder Primes, with shared Mastery between them. That way the Founders don't have to level them up if they don't want, it helps equalise Mastery and in the case of Dexcalibur it gives Excal players an upgrade to look forward to like the rest of us.

Make the Dex items share models with the base Excal, etc; that way the Founders don't feel like we're here to steal their weapons by proxy.

Well after sitting through the last 20 or so pages despite thinking of bowing out, I figured I might as well come in and throw my agreement in with you, though they wouldn't have to even bother with making them look like the base models, they could just make them slightly different from the exclusives, slightly different trim, slightly different colors, maybe a curve where there wasn't one.

 

If they did that and the linking/etc it "might" lessen the forum spam, negate some of the arguments people use, and overall be a general positive.

 

And while I am trying to understand Aggh's point, which is valid enough, that I got what I payed for, and am not entitled to anything else. They have officially stated earlier, that DE does consider these separate, albeit according to the community, "sneaky" which is fair enough, the idea is while they do not HAVE to give into any demands at all regarding it, if they do put out AK variants that are just the exact same design copy/pasted, it will mostly just give people fuel to burn for removing exclusivity from the exclusives because, hey I already got 2, just give me the 1.

 

Now if they do a general minimal effort compromise that could take little time just to slightly alter the designs, and link/etc it would get general people a single lato prime/skana equivalent, it would get the excuse for mastery dealt with, and while some would still complain about it, the main people that just want to hold on to their shinys, would still have unique looking shinys, people in game would be able to easily tell any difference between the originals and their counterparts.

 

I would like to officially state though, that I do agree that no one is entitled to anything about that, just with a minimal amount of wiggle work, DE could make a very positive step forward, without stepping on many toes as it were.

 

Obviously this post will be looked upon as entirely unreasonable for even suggesting the concept of a win-win because I must be evil for wanting everyone to come out of this hypothetical situation with happier experiences and new toys to play with.

 

Irregardless, I have been trying to find a way to reasonably and rationally explain my take on the last 20-30 pages of knee-jerk screams that no one deserves anything and even if something looks exactly the same in every possible way it is totally different, which again, both have validity in different ways.

[Aggh]

This would also apply to the have nots clamoring for never to return items as well

Sure, why not?  That doesn't apply to dual variants though.

 

 

Well after sitting through the last 20 or so pages despite thinking of bowing out, I figured I might as well come in and throw my agreement in with you, though they wouldn't have to even bother with making them look like the base models, they could just make them slightly different from the exclusives, slightly different trim, slightly different colors, maybe a curve where there wasn't one.

 

If they did that and the linking/etc it "might" lessen the forum spam, negate some of the arguments people use, and overall be a general positive.

 

And while I am trying to understand Aggh's point, which is valid enough, that I got what I payed for, and am not entitled to anything else. They have officially stated earlier, that DE does consider these separate, albeit according to the community, "sneaky" which is fair enough, the idea is while they do not HAVE to give into any demands at all regarding it, if they do put out AK variants that are just the exact same design copy/pasted, it will mostly just give people fuel to burn for removing exclusivity from the exclusives because, hey I already got 2, just give me the 1.

 

Now if they do a general minimal effort compromise that could take little time just to slightly alter the designs, and link/etc it would get general people a single lato prime/skana equivalent, it would get the excuse for mastery dealt with, and while some would still complain about it, the main people that just want to hold on to their shinys, would still have unique looking shinys, people in game would be able to easily tell any difference between the originals and their counterparts.

 

I would like to officially state though, that I do agree that no one is entitled to anything about that, just with a minimal amount of wiggle work, DE could make a very positive step forward, without stepping on many toes as it were.

 

Obviously this post will be looked upon as entirely unreasonable for even suggesting the concept of a win-win because I must be evil for wanting everyone to come out of this hypothetical situation with happier experiences and new toys to play with.

 

Irregardless, I have been trying to find a way to reasonably and rationally explain my take on the last 20-30 pages of knee-jerk screams that no one deserves anything and even if something looks exactly the same in every possible way it is totally different, which again, both have validity in different ways.

Calling dual variants a copy pastes does a great disservice to the animation team's work, especially in the case of dual melee weapons. 

 

It's not a question of you being evil or not.  Having to create a win-win compromise is a concession and is essentially the same as admitting that founders have an entitlement regarding the release of these weapons.  DE shouldn't have to make those kinds of concessions.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Aggh

[Kartumterek]

Well after sitting through the last 20 or so pages despite thinking of bowing out, I figured I might as well come in and throw my agreement in with you, though they wouldn't have to even bother with making them look like the base models, they could just make them slightly different from the exclusives, slightly different trim, slightly different colors, maybe a curve where there wasn't one.

 

If they did that and the linking/etc it "might" lessen the forum spam, negate some of the arguments people use, and overall be a general positive.

 

And while I am trying to understand Aggh's point, which is valid enough, that I got what I payed for, and am not entitled to anything else. They have officially stated earlier, that DE does consider these separate, albeit according to the community, "sneaky" which is fair enough, the idea is while they do not HAVE to give into any demands at all regarding it, if they do put out AK variants that are just the exact same design copy/pasted, it will mostly just give people fuel to burn for removing exclusivity from the exclusives because, hey I already got 2, just give me the 1.

 

Now if they do a general minimal effort compromise that could take little time just to slightly alter the designs, and link/etc it would get general people a single lato prime/skana equivalent, it would get the excuse for mastery dealt with, and while some would still complain about it, the main people that just want to hold on to their shinys, would still have unique looking shinys, people in game would be able to easily tell any difference between the originals and their counterparts.

 

I would like to officially state though, that I do agree that no one is entitled to anything about that, just with a minimal amount of wiggle work, DE could make a very positive step forward, without stepping on many toes as it were.

 

Obviously this post will be looked upon as entirely unreasonable for even suggesting the concept of a win-win because I must be evil for wanting everyone to come out of this hypothetical situation with happier experiences and new toys to play with.

 

Irregardless, I have been trying to find a way to reasonably and rationally explain my take on the last 20-30 pages of knee-jerk screams that no one deserves anything and even if something looks exactly the same in every possible way it is totally different, which again, both have validity in different ways.

It won't be enough. They want it for the look. You can release whatever you want but if it doesn't look like that pistol that that guy has then it will lead to another post. The only way these guys will be satisfied is if everyone gets a Grand Master equivalent package. They just can't face the fact that its gone forever. The OP has said that this is a proposed loophole around the Founder exclusivity. I don't know what else needs to be said

[Sev7n]

I dont think they should release them mainly cause it would make no sense

How do you make an aklato prime without 2 lato prime's? 

 

Also cause there would be no use for them, they would still be outmatched by other weapons making them more of a novelty item 

All these weapons would do is trade these forums complaints of "why cant i have the founder gear" with "why did you betray us founders" 

[Aggh]

I dont think they should release them mainly cause it would make no sense

How do you make an aklato prime without 2 lato prime's? 

 

Also cause there would be no use for them, they would still be outmatched by other weapons making them more of a novelty item 

All these weapons would do is trade these forums complaints of "why cant i have the founder gear" with "why did you betray us founders" 

The same way you make a dual skana without two skanas.  With crafting components other than the single weapon variant.  There is no rule set in stone that requires copies of the single weapon variant for crafting.

 

Please explain to us all when exactly it was that you paid for dual skana prime or AKlato.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Aggh

[Kartumterek]

The same way you make a dual skana without two skanas.  With crafting components other than the single weapon variant.

 

Please explain to us all when exactly it was that you paid for dual skana prime or AKlato.

I don't know if you know this... but the only dual Prime that exists requires TWO single Prime versions to craft. The precedent has already been set. These are Orokin artifacts, that's how the Orokin did their crafting. Newer mass produced items can be made out of anything. But not Primes. I would have thought that anyone who has made an AkBronco Prime would understand this process

[cleverboots]

It won't be enough. They want it for the look. You can release whatever you want but if it doesn't look like that pistol that that guy has then it will lead to another post. The only way these guys will be satisfied is if everyone gets a Grand Master equivalent package. They just can't face the fact that its gone forever. The OP has said that this is a proposed loophole around the Founder exclusivity. I don't know what else needs to be said

Ultimately this is just kind of a lose lose situation, the good news is, no matter what people mostly use forums in many games, to scream for no reason and knee jerk react.

 

I was simply stating an idea a few others have also posted in these many pages, which may or may not possible if and or perhaps lessen some of the screamers ammo, it will never go away, pft this is the internet. that being said, it could work out, could not...

 

Really should distance myself from this, most of what is useful has been stated and arguing gets me nowhere...DE is free to do whatever they want even if it does turn out slightly sneaky/scummy, I certainly see no reason to sue over something as insignificant as virtual data, though I see no problem in debating the validity of any potential choices anyone could make. 

[Aggh]

I don't know if you know this... but the only dual Prime that exists requires TWO single Prime versions to craft. The precedent has already been set. These are Orokin artifacts, that's how the Orokin did their crafting. Newer mass produced items can be made out of anything. But not Primes. I would have thought that anyone who has made an AkBronco Prime would understand this process

Saying that precdent has been set implies that DE is obligated to follow it, which isn't true; that's why there are so many exceptions to the rule.  

 

For the longest time Afuris was plat only.  Does that mean that all other dual variants following it should have been plat only?  Oops.  Looks like DE didn't follow that rule for too long, did they?

Edited June 11, 2014 by Aggh

[noveltyhero]

You guys just drop it, it is exclusive and exclusive it remains. I know I would be annoyed to be told that they are exclusive and then they just hand them out. Like others have mentioned  here, the founder weapons are ONLY status symbols, nothing else. Nobody runs into a mission with their Skana killing hordes of enemies...

Also, the argument of "mastery difference" is stupid, I am pretty sure DE will eventually have so many frames and weapons that getting to Mastery Rank 30 will have 50 different ways, is not like because I have the Skana prime I will dominate you guys in PVP either. Stop whining please and just move on.

[Kartumterek]

Saying that precdent has been set implies that DE is obligated to follow it, which isn't true; that's why there are so many exceptions to the rule.  For the longest time Afuris was plat only.  Does that mean that all other dual variants following it should have been plat only?

When it comes to Orokin technology, yes it does. No one but the Orokin can make Orokin tech. Anything newer you can retcon it as much as you want. But the Orokin cannot be treated as something you can just get or make anywhere.

[Aggh]

You guys just drop it, it is exclusive and exclusive it remains. I know I would be annoyed to be told that they are exclusive and then they just hand them out. Like others have mentioned  here, the founder weapons are ONLY status symbols, nothing else. Nobody runs into a mission with their Skana killing hordes of enemies...

Also, the argument of "mastery difference" is stupid, I am pretty sure DE will eventually have so many frames and weapons that getting to Mastery Rank 30 will have 50 different ways, is not like because I have the Skana prime I will dominate you guys in PVP either. Stop whining please and just move on.

When did you pay for AKlato prime and Dual Skana prime?

[The_Lunatic_]

Saying that precdent has been set implies that DE is obligated to follow it, which isn't true; that's why there are so many exceptions to the rule.  For the longest time Afuris was plat only.  Does that mean that all other dual variants following it should have been plat only?  Oops.  Looks like DE didn't follow that rule for too long, did they?

 

Aggh's Arguments:

 

DE has set a precedent that AK weapons are different from single varients and must follow it with these prime weapons!

DE has set the precedent that AK Prime weapons require two prime weapons, and must ignore it with these prime weapons!

DE has no precedent of re-release exclusive weapons as dual varients, and must create one with these prime weapons!

 

Which is it? Do you want DE to stick to their guns or to ignore various things they've said or done? Or are you just going to pick and choose?

[Aggh]

When it comes to Orokin technology, yes it does. No one but the Orokin can make Orokin tech. Anything newer you can retcon it as much as you want. But the Orokin cannot be treated as something you can just get or make anywhere.

We've made other orokin weapons from orokin weapon parts.  The corpus scavenge orokin technology all the time.

 

But even if that mattered at all, what obligates DE to do this?  They are the ones that create the games lore and there are plenty of ways that they can explain how these weapons are made.

 

 

Aggh's Arguments:

 

DE has set a precedent that AK weapons are different from single varients and must follow it with these prime weapons!

DE has set the precedent that AK Prime weapons require two prime weapons, and must ignore it with these prime weapons!

DE has no precedent of re-release exclusive weapons as dual varients, and must create one with these prime weapons!

 

Which is it? Do you want DE to stick to their guns or to ignore various things they've said or done? Or are you just going to pick and choose?

No, it's more than mere precedent.  It's how the game treats them.  There are no exceptions to the rule.  There are a multitude of exceptions to the rules that you are trying to set.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Aggh

[Eidolon_Slayer]

They can have Aklato Prime and Dual Skana Prime, however they must look different than the founders version of weapons. Only this option for releasing new weapons will please these players.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Mikovsky

[Kartumterek]

We've made other orokin weapons from orokin weapon parts.  The corpus scavenge orokin technology all the time.

 

But even if that mattered at all, what obligates DE to do this?  They are the ones that create the games lore and there are plenty of ways that they can explain how these weapons are made.

Their lore in their game does. How can you call something a Prime that isn't? Orokin is a brand, the Rolls Royce of War frame. You can't go to the Chevy plant and make a car and call it/brand it a Rolls Royce and expect anyone to take it seriously and to pay Rolls Royce money for a crap imitation.

AKBronco Prime release killed any shot of this being even remotely possible without blatantly retconning the lore and destroying the value of Primes

Sorry

[Aggh]

Their lore in their game does. How can you call something a Prime that isn't? Orokin is a brand, the Rolls Royce of War frame. You can't go to the Chevy plant and make a car and call it/brand it a Rolls Royce and expect anyone to take it seriously and to pay Rolls Royce money for a crap imitation.

AKBronco Prime release killed any shot of this being even remotely possible without blatantly retconning the lore and destroying the value of Primes

Sorry

The same way they can make fang prime from handles and blades.  Or make a latron prime from various weapon parts.

 

Crafting mechanics speak more to DE's attempts to handle RNG/Grind than it does to lore.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Aggh

[Kartumterek]

The same way they can make fang prime from handles and blades.  Or make a latron prime from various weapon parts.

 

Crafting mechanics speak more to DE's attempts to handle RNG/Grind than it does to lore.

All of those parts are already made. All we nonOrokin are doing is assembly. No one but Orokin can create or make a Prime. Just deal with it. Its over

[Aggh]

All of those parts are already made. All we nonOrokin are doing is assembly. No one but Orokin can create or make a Prime. Just deal with it. Its over

And you got this info from what established lore?  Where does it say that there aren't any parts for aklato or dual skana lying around?

Edited June 11, 2014 by Aggh

[sedy25]

And... How do you expect people to get these AK versions without first having the singular one? Oh wait, exclusivity!

[Kartumterek]

And you got this info from what established lore? Where does it say that there aren't any parts for aklato or dual skana lying around?

How many lato/Skana/Excalibur Prime blueprints are in game currently? None and with good reason. They are lost along with our memories of that time and the Orokin themselves. This will only be possible when the Orokin return. Till then...

Sorry bro

Edited June 11, 2014 by Kartumterek

[Yezzik]

Hence why I keep trying to put forward my compromises, and why I'm looking at this issue from a gameplay and balance perspective.

It's the only way to progress when everyone else is so focused on cosmetics.

Hopefully a dev chimes in on whether or not shared Mastery is possible. If not, then perhaps the Dex items could give no Mastery and we could get clantech for granting ourselves the Mastery from Founder items.

What would everyone think of that?

[Kartumterek]

Hence why I keep trying to put forward my compromises, and why I'm looking at this issue from a gameplay and balance perspective.

It's the only way to progress when everyone else is so focused on cosmetics.

Hopefully a dev chimes in on whether or not shared Mastery is possible. If not, then perhaps the Dex items could give no Mastery and we could get clantech for granting ourselves the Mastery from Founder items.

What would everyone think of that?

None of that fixes the core problem. Ppl missed out and they want something that is lost to the ages. Once they let it go they may find an alternative. But not now

[Aggh]

How many lato/Skana/Excalibur Prime blueprints are in game currently? None and with good reason. They are lost along with our memories of that time and the Orokin themselves. This will only be possible when the Orokin return. Till then...

Sorry bro

That in no way says that there can't be.  All you're assuming is that they haven't been found.  There's nothing stopping DE from creating lore saying that parts have been found.  Lore arguments are weak since lore can be changed or added on to without any real trouble.

 

 

And... How do you expect people to get these AK versions without first having the singular one? Oh wait, exclusivity!

Would it really kill you to at least glance at the discussion on the newest page even?  There are dual weapons that don't require a single weapon as part of the crafting cost.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Aggh

[Yezzik]

The core problem is impossible to solve as both sides are diametrically opposed.

I'm trying to take a third option here.

[Eidolon_Slayer]

The core problem is impossible to solve as both sides are diametrically opposed.

I'm trying to take a third option here.

Release Aklato Prime and Dual Skana Prime with different appearances than the singular Lato & Skana Prime.

 

They get their AK, Dual Prime items. Founders keep their weapon exclusivity. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by Mikovsky