Devstream 30: An Unexpectedly Large Blow To My Hopes For The Game

[CapedBaldy]

Just extremely worried about all the toxic damage, are they trying to shoehorn people into playing Oberon, Trinity and Rhino, or being forced to use a life strike and rage combo?

[DaWolv]

Honestly I disagree, the core combat issues aren't tough to fix. They're just being ignored.

 

1) add a few survivability mechanics to regular enemies like shields, ranged weapon resistance, AoE resistance. ~3 or so per faction.

 

2) make Eximus 5 times as badass, once they hit level 30, and power resistant (and able to protect allies from powers). Make them spawn as announced minibosses on survival/def (like prosecutors are announced)

 

3) remove all bandaid mods (speed holster, handspring, parry etc) and make all those mechanics skill based

 

4) remove any shield bypassing attacks that are not telegraphed. This includes bleed.

 

5) make every single poison nuclear explosion cloud AoE you just showed in the LS telegraphed

 

6) make melee 2.0 have a more effective way of gap closing and hitting flying enemies.

 

7) understand that glowy weakspots on bosses don't work vs melee, and invul phases are typically not fun

 

8) implement some minor balance mechanics where AoE and powers are more harm than good

 

9) give bonus affinity/loot/whatever for killing an enemy in its 'skill based' way as opposed to nuking it

 

10) have an ice cold margarita, you've just made a frigging awesome game.

 

Is that everything? Maybe not, but it's enough to make core combat leagues better IMO.

 

What I keep saying is this:

 

The reason why the game is too easy at times and too unfair at the same time, is because the mods are too ridiculous:

 

Some are way to powerful. (In general I'd suggest nerfing everything into the ground an then rebalancing the enemy difficulty around it, so that a new player can defeat Pluto maps when he's playing well, and not getting stomped just because his weapons are useless; and the other way around, that a maxed out character with the best mods can't just one-shot every enemy up to level 35.)

 

Other mods are so weak or just plain useless noone uses them. (as pointed out above.)

 

__________

 

Also, what I keep thinking when I hear that reworks for bosses are coming:

Why would I want to beat them? As a new player, sure, you want the Warframe parts,

but once you have them, why would I go back there?

The only bosses that are still run frequently are Sargas Ruk and Alad V, because its an easy way to get rare resources.

Have any of you fought Keyla lately? I haven't in at least 8 months.

So how will they get us to play this new content? I'm really afraid of them pulling another stupid stunt and locking away additional content behind a key that you need to craft from parts you can only get by playing other new content (where have I seen that before?)

 

All we need you to do, DE, is make the game itself fun, rethink the resource system, rethink the mods and rebalance everything (which will make PvP actually fun, too) and then think about what rewards you can introduce, that are meaningful for a long term, not just in the wake of a new Patch.

(case in point: Forma. I was once so happy to get one from a mission, now, since I have had time to farm them, I have more than I would ever need. What we need are rewards that we can actually use for an unlimited time! Also, please give me something to spend my 4k Controle modules on!)

[Beladric]

What I keep saying is this:

 

The reason why the game is too easy at times and too unfair at the same time, is because the mods are too ridiculous:

 

Some are way to powerful. (In general I'd suggest nerfing everything into the ground an then rebalancing the enemy difficulty around it, so that a new player can defeat Pluto maps when he's playing well, and not getting stomped just because his weapons are useless; and the other way around, that a maxed out character with the best mods can't just one-shot every enemy up to level 35.)

 

Other mods are so weak or just plain useless noone uses them. (as pointed out above.)

 

__________

 

Also, what I keep thinking when I hear that reworks for bosses are coming:

Why would I want to beat them? As a new player, sure, you want the Warframe parts,

but once you have them, why would I go back there?

The only bosses that are still run frequently are Sargas Ruk and Alad V, because its an easy way to get rare resources.

Have any of you fought Keyla lately? I haven't in at least 8 months.

So how will they get us to play this new content? I'm really afraid of them pulling another stupid stunt and locking away additional content behind a key that you need to craft from parts you can only get by playing other new content (where have I seen that before?)

 

All we need you to do, DE, is make the game itself fun, rethink the resource system, rethink the mods and rebalance everything (which will make PvP actually fun, too) and then think about what rewards you can introduce, that are meaningful for a long term, not just in the wake of a new Patch.

(case in point: Forma. I was once so happy to get one from a mission, now, since I have had time to farm them, I have more than I would ever need. What we need are rewards that we can actually use for an unlimited time! Also, please give me something to spend my 4k Controle modules on!)

 

I think the real problem with this idea is players don't like seeing their numbers go down, which keeps the bigger, overarcing nerfs at bay. I'm with you, I think DE should nerf all the numbers into the ground and rebalance up, rather then constantly scaling everything for a power peak that its entirely possible to get to Jupiter without being able to climb. The power discrepancy between a new and older player is immense, and that's without taking into account the absurdity of pistol multishot.

[MageMeat]

I think the real problem with this idea is players don't like seeing their numbers go down, which keeps the bigger, overarcing nerfs at bay. I'm with you, I think DE should nerf all the numbers into the ground and rebalance up, rather then constantly scaling everything for a power peak that its entirely possible to get to Jupiter without being able to climb. The power discrepancy between a new and older player is immense, and that's without taking into account the absurdity of pistol multishot.

I am with that opinion as well, but it won't happen for two reasons.

1. Not enough people share this opinion.

2. Nobody is screaming at DE to implement it.

[Othergrunty]

All of this got me thinking. What if we or DE set up polls on the forums to give the community more of a voice? Kind of like the survey they did awhile back: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/189247-optional-mission-feedback-survey/

 

I would especially like to see a poll where we as a community could vote on what priorities we would like to see DE focus on. For instance, I would vote for them to focus more on improving their existing content rather than adding new content such as weapons or frames.

 

If they set up more surveys and polls for us to vote what we'd like to see more, I feel it would give them a lot more feedback to go by.

 

Funny enough that's exactly what i had recently been pondering about too.

Scott has noted multiple times in Devstreams that it has become very difficult to get an idea on what exactly is the general mindset of community because of the many differing opinions and the large amount of threads that pop up constantly.

So the logical thing to do would be A. to have the forum moderators merge threads much more and reduce the number of threads that are about the exact same subject and created at the same time (like the 3 threads concerning Valkyr's Hysteria right now) and B. create pools to get a general idea on what the majority of the community is thinking about.

 

Like:

Is Loki's invisibility overpowered?

1. Yes, it's flawlessly strong. (10%)

2. Yes, but it balances out his disadvantages. (28%)

3. No, it's fine. (42%)

4. No, it's still to weak. (10%)

 

In the rest of the thread people could then argue about the pro and cons of these the decessions. Which should be looked at as much as the statistic. The statistic should just be a first indicator for the devs in order to get a feeling for what they might read in the rest of the thread.

 

Now the trick would be for the Devs not to take these pools as straight indicator of what should be done or use them as excuse for doing something unpopular, but just as a first phase indicator for what a vocal part of the community is actualy seeing or thinking about right now.

It would still be in their power to completely ignore these pools at all. But at least they would then need to actualy adress why they did something that is opposing what a large part of the community is thinking.

 

Both the community and the game have become a lot more larger since the game went open beta. So it's time to implent some new filters in order to get the general mindset of the players.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Othergrunty

[Hyperius]

the mods are too ridiculous:

 

I can't overstate how much I agree with this. A lot of the problems DE has with the difficulty curve comes from this very issue. Also, the compartmentalized feel of some of the gameplay systems really stands out.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Hyperius

[notlamprey]

Speaking as a veteran player, I'd be completely fine with a "demolish and rebuild" approach to rebalancing the game's core math.

 

I don't see it as a nerf or a destruction of my hard work. Instead, it's a chance to approach the content I already enjoyed with a fresh set of eyes (and numbers). Do I think it's a realistic expectation? Well, not really.

 

I can't ask DE to make that kind of change to Warframe now, being totally in the dark about so many of the factors that affect their decision-making process as a content creator and a business.

 

All that being said, I'll support any serious mathematical retooling that DE feels is worth attempting.

[notionphil]

I'm sure that the project managers do, but looking at how many of the new ai types involving player agency removal, or how nothing has changed with all the existing AI capable of it, that I feel like someone with a direct connection to what the players actually say about those mechanics needs to be present during the design process to provide an "Is this the right direction?  Is this fun?" type of ownership role.

 

I'll give DE a complete free pass on the player submitted winners though.  The voting was pretty close, but Lyssa had a really on point comment that the voting mostly seemed to go toward the prettiest and most polished art, even if the design would be incredibly annoying in game.

 

I had a ton of ideas but i didnt even bother bc I can't draw and I missed the pg 1 cutoffs.

 

Oh wellz

[Beladric]

Well that's just it. We can only speculate as to DE's actual situation and speak as potential customers that love their game. We can only give so much feedback.

 

I don't really think they'll do too much with the math, really. It is a huge job, and its one that, while some will take it well and see the necessity, could easily alienate most of the player base in one fell swoop. Its just difficult to put any kind of positive spin on it.

 

Still, DE either needs to commit to tiering everything or it needs to redo the math, because the current system doesn't quite sit in either court, and its causing some problems.

[Taranis49]

I was seriously concerned when he showed all these new enemies which will hit your HP directly bypassing your shield and how excited they sounded about that.  It's the same bad feeling, as the one when i see the other Devs so utterly unfaced or almost gleefull about people getting knocked to the ground in livestreams. Like in Scott's presentation of the Melee system or their jokes about Rollers.

It's the feeling that they don't care about how punishing these two things are to players, despite that being exactly why Rhino is so overused currently.

 

But then i remembered that almost all enemies voted by the design councils are based around knocking down players or tanking their damage, so it seems even the majority of Design Council seem to be okay with how the enemies currently work and since they are the ones who vote for us, it's possible all the rest of the playerbase are most likely just white noise for them. It's really not a good sign when you can take multiple episodes of Extra Punctuation and point how Warframe is having the problems they mentiod.

 

So i just commented that the designs are nice and that they could work with better AI. Because i think bringing up critic doesn't really help.

 

But you are making a good point bringing all the issues to word, which is great of you, so thanks for that. I hope they read it.

 

I also still hope DE can still make this game better, they don't have a really stellar history of games they developed alone (Star Trek being one of the low points), so i see Warframe as their chance to produce something truely great. Not trying to bash them here, just really feeling they let something great slip here.

 

Hell, I've said it before, if the only way you can make your game challenging is to remove one's ability to actually play it, that suggests a massive problem at its core.

 

In fairness to the DC (not that we deserve much, I swear most just picked the prettiest art without even reading the descriptions), the designs we were given to vote for were from a pre-selected list chosen by DE themselves; e.g. in the case of the Grineer, since it's still fresh in mind, I think we had like, maybe three options (out of 16) that didn't have a knockdown attack, some of them had atleast three. Two of those three that didn't have a knockdown attack either made all the dudes around them invincible, or involved huge radial toxic/corrosive abilities.

 

There were very few real winners of the bunch. :-/

[Beladric]

Hell, I've said it before, if the only way you can make your game challenging is to remove one's ability to actually play it, that suggests a massive problem at its core.

 

In fairness to the DC (not that we deserve much, I swear most just picked the prettiest art without even reading the descriptions), the designs we were given to vote for were from a pre-selected list chosen by DE themselves; e.g. in the case of the Grineer, since it's still fresh in mind, I think we had like, maybe three options (out of 16) that didn't have a knockdown attack, some of them had atleast three. Two of those three that didn't have a knockdown attack either made all the dudes around them invincible, or involved huge radial toxic/corrosive abilities.

 

There were very few real winners of the bunch. :-/

 

Wait, seriously? That is... well, obnoxious. Do people actually like Toxic Ancients? Am I just missing something here?

[(PSN)billy-d-squid]

I had a ton of ideas but i didnt even bother bc I can't draw and I missed the pg 1 cutoffs.

 

Oh wellz

 

The thing is, that those competitions didn't address the major problem that the basic enemy types are simply cannon fodder.  Great they added a new enemy type in, still, it hasn't changed the issue that Corpus Crewmen are horrendously boring and ridiculously easy to kill. The same with Grineer. 

 

I mean, would it be so hard to simply give the Corpus Crew, Elites and Detron guys an energy shield they could drop which the player can't shoot through? I'll open up with any weapon which has shred or a punch through mod on it, and the entire spawn just collapses in a heap of mangled bodies.

 

Or improve the AI so shielded lancers spawn with normal Lancers, while the Lancers stay behind the shield lancers who's shield can't be penetrated by a basic shred mod? 

 

These are really simple fixes but things in this vein would make a world of difference in making players think before emptying a clip into a hallway when it won't work, it's not bloating the HP which has already happened, there's not a requirement to add new units (who wants to bet we're just going to be able to riddle them with bullets again anyway?) and it doesn't heap horrid, stun lock mechanics and "ignore" shields on people. Why they've not addressed the basic design flaws, rather than stick a band-aid on it, is beyond me.

Edited June 7, 2014 by (PS4)billy-d-squid

[LGear]

As a solo player, while I mostly agree with the points and concerns raised in this thread - like the bosses not being susceptible to melee, and thus forcing us to use guns which irks me as a melee lover - , I kinda think that as far as making content "exclusive" to a particular playstyle, DE has done stuff that makes me think it can't be all bad:

 

1. The Prosecutors actually have a weakness to a particular damage type that all 4 variants share: Slash damage. Without elemental mods, something like a Dragon Nikana, or any weapon built for Slash damage, can kill Prosecutors easily. Not in the same amount of time as using the proper elemental damage, but I've solo'd many Prosecutor hunts doing so.

 

2. The Specters of Liberty event showcasing Rescue 2.0. When I first heard of the revamped Rescue missions having "forced stealth segments", I actually was appalled at the thought, considering the rather horrid stealth mechanics of the game at the moment, and that having segments where you have to be stealthy was going to be nightmarish.

 

Thankfully, the actual execution of Rescue 2.0 was such that while they did introduce a game mode where stealth is not only feasible but actually perfectly viable (imho one of the greatest revamps they've done), you can still play and complete the entire mission without being stealthy at all. Stealth is preferable, but even run & gun players can enjoy Rescue 2.0.

 

So I'm taking the "Wait and See" approach on the new bosses, units and mechanics at the moment, then make suitable judgements when I test them out personally.

Edited June 7, 2014 by LGear

[notionphil]

The thing is, that those competitions didn't address the major problem that the basic enemy types are simply cannon fodder.  Great they added a new enemy type in, still, it hasn't changed the issue that Corpus Crewmen are horrendously boring and ridiculously easy to kill. The same with Grineer. 

 

I mean, would it be so hard to simply give the Corpus Crew, Elites and Detron guys an energy shield they could drop which the player can't shoot through? I'll open up with any weapon which has shred or a punch through mod on it, and the entire spawn just collapses in a heap of mangled bodies.

 

Or improve the AI so shielded lancers spawn with normal Lancers, while the Lancers stay behind the shield lancers who's shield can't be penetrated by a basic shred mod? 

 

These are really simple fixes but things in this vein would make a world of difference in making players think before emptying a clip into a hallway when it won't work, it's not bloating the HP which has already happened, there's not a requirement to add new units (who wants to bet we're just going to be able to riddle them with bullets again anyway?) and it doesn't heap horrid, stun lock mechanics and "ignore" shields on people. Why they've not addressed the basic design flaws, rather than stick a band-aid on it, is beyond me.

It's because the enemy design team is not working with the balance team, the powers/abilities team, the content team or the lore team. Their goal is to make cool enemies and that's it.

We just saw that. Warframes dev teams are all designing individually awesome things that don't work together in the slightest way.

[Davoodoo]

Warframe so far is the only game ive seen where enemies die from single hit from rapid fire weapon and thats biggest problem imo.

Trying to do anything but shooting your enemy is pointless due to amount of our dmg. Even if they shoot however 1 shot wont be enough to beat us.

 

If they however could withstand at least 3 shots from typical assault rifle at least few from their squad would make it into cover even if we ambush them.

 

Then we got punchthrough which makes cover obsolete, something should done about it. 

Reduced dmg is first thing that comes into my mind. It would make shooting through cover possible but not the most effective way to deal with enemies.

 

Reducing player power must come first before attempting to make enemies challenging, i simply see no other way to make it happen.

[SirAuron]

It's time they start allowing you to modify your mod loadouts in missions.

Edited June 7, 2014 by SirAuron

[gnat6]

It's time they start allowing you to modify your mod loadouts in missions.

No its time DE removes the current mod system and creates a new one that is used for customization instead of powercreep.

[F1UXie]

Funny enough that's exactly what i had recently been pondering about too.

Scott has noted multiple times in Devstreams that it has become very difficult to get an idea on what exactly is the general mindset of community because of the many differing opinions and the large amount of threads that pop up constantly.

So the logical thing to do would be A. to have the forum moderators merge threads much more and reduce the number of threads that are about the exact same subject and created at the same time (like the 3 threads concerning Valkyr's Hysteria right now) and B. create pools to get a general idea on what the majority of the community is thinking about.

Like:

Is Loki's invisibility overpowered?

1. Yes, it's flawlessly strong. (10%)

2. Yes, but it balances out his disadvantages. (28%)

3. No, it's fine. (42%)

4. No, it's still to weak. (10%)

In the rest of the thread people could then argue about the pro and cons of these the decessions. Which should be looked at as much as the statistic. The statistic should just be a first indicator for the devs in order to get a feeling for what they might read in the rest of the thread.

Now the trick would be for the Devs not to take these pools as straight indicator of what should be done or use them as excuse for doing something unpopular, but just as a first phase indicator for what a vocal part of the community is actualy seeing or thinking about right now.

It would still be in their power to completely ignore these pools at all. But at least they would then need to actualy adress why they did something that is opposing what a large part of the community is thinking.

Both the community and the game have become a lot more larger since the game went open beta. So it's time to implent some new filters in order to get the general mindset of the players.

I can't agree more with this. +10,000

EDIT: What if they made a new poll each week on a certain hot topic that we could all vote on?

Edited June 7, 2014 by F1UXie

[DiabolusUrsus]

You guys are hitting a lot of nails on the head. Depressingly many. 

First, don't expect anything out of the design council. They're like a carbon-copy of the forums, but fewer in number. Members can't actually start any threads. They have to wait for suggestion boxes and voting polls to provide any input. Even if they could start their own topics, we'd see the same sort of nerf/buff, change/leave alone, good idea/bad idea bickering we see every day on the forums. With the only possible exception being that it would be a more civil conversation because as the Design Council DE and their moderators would be watching a little more closely. 

 

Second, our balance system is broken beyond immediate repair. Not beyond immediate patching, but said patching would need to be temporary placation while DE gets started in on Balance 2.0. I'm not really a fan of the huge "2.0" overhauls that have us waiting for simple changes for months on end, but enough needs to be changed this time around that it really would be an overhaul. One of the most immediate problems is that weapons cannot stand on their own without mods, which are distributed through RNG. Consequently, players who have yet to be blessed with RNG have no means of producing viable weapons for existing game content. Trading is not a fix for this issue. That said, I do not think that RNG should be taken out of the loot system (for mods, anyways.) Instead, weapon viability should be tied to the weapon itself, enemies should be balanced around the minimum and maximum player damage potentials, and mods should be limited to weapon customization and auxiliary function. This includes elements. I realize that it's slightly unfair of me to post such a huge cardboard apocalypse sign thread without offering any concrete suggestions, so I'll be starting in on those as I can. I'm sorta feeling "Proc System 3.0" right now. 

 

Third, the portion of the community that sees "nerf" and immediately thinks "weaker, therefore bad" is way too large. I recently acquired the Penta because there aren't many other primaries that currently interest me, and it looked interesting. I love the weapon simply because the firing mechanic is really fun to use. I love firing off a single grenade and attempting to detonate it before it hits the ground next to whichever enemy I'm firing at. It's very satisfying to pull off. At the same time, I have also experienced the infamous standing still and raining grenades down on the Infested from an unreachable vantage point "meta-game" strategy. It is hilarious and empowering... for about twenty minutes. Things need to be balanced, and DE needs the courage and the support to make some necessary changes while the whining blows over. 

 

I think it'd be interesting if DE could release a very limited "Creation" kit of sorts working with a plugin system for an offline version of Warframe so that interested members of the community could take their time to create "mods" (mods as in Skyrim-styled mods, not mod cards) illustrating some of their proposed balancing changes. I'd be very interested in trying out a Volt_Cruelerz or notionphil-styled overhaul, and I think being able to experience the end result of some of the ideas being tossed around might help lay some of the community-at-large's fears to rest concerning weapon nerfs. It's a really rough idea, but I remembered a thread I read a while ago titled "If you could be a Warframe Dev for a day" or something like that. Thinking about it realistically that idea wouldn't really work or be practical, but DE's relative silence in combination with some of their responses after making seemingly random changes make me think "Here, let me show you what I'm talking about." 
 

[locojuan]

they siad it in the devstream... we want the player to feel like a "deity" against mobs. nerfin, reduction of power, and all of the things we see so often in the forums, are things i have long ago gave for nullified. it was clear to me since i started playing that this game was not meant for tactic gameplay or anything in those lines. but more of a "i am a god among men" kind of thing. When we ask DE to change their vision, we only make em look away from us. instead, we should try to negotiate means to accommodate what we are asking for, without deviating too much from their goals.
what notionphil suggested fits in these lines exceptionaly well. (dude i couldnt agree more with your suggestions). We only need to concentrate on where these ideas should be placed, in order to avoid a major interference with DE's aproach and goals in terms of playability. 
i think everyone here agree that the new mobs (the proc ones) SUCK big time. And that we need, time to time, a mob that remind us to focus and pay attention, instead of "ill put your health down no matter how skilled you are". that is all we really need. there is not necessity to make all mobs, everywhere, hard to beat. its just to remind us, that even deities need to use their brains time to time.
  Is it too hard to have "a game within a game"? i said it at phil's post, dark sectors could house the veterans playground perfectly, and we wouldnt even need to touch the star chart.
although, i will put my faith on DE. i know where they come from and i know how much they want this game to succeed. they will get their #%# in line eventually. and if they don't, well too bad and sad, i love em the same.

off topic: i would gladly wait for months without new content if thats what DE needs to pair ps4 and pc updates, that should be a relieve to them. and thats what a player that realy wants to see the game evolve would do...if necessary.

[calabi]

I can't agree more with this. +10,000

EDIT: What if they made a new poll each week on a certain hot topic that we could all vote on?

 

In my opinion they shouldnt be looking at what people are saying(not so much) or doing polls only for the most vacuous of things.  The crowd would vote to cut of its own testicles its so stupid.  As someone famous once said individuals are smart, crowds are stupid.

 

They should be looking at there metric data(if they have any).  What are the most played Warframes, the least.  What are the most used abilities.  And do there own testing should this ability kill that many enemies, should it last this long, what are the ramifications of it being changed does it matter?  How do most players die.  Like do they die after being knocked down if they do, then there is a problem with knockdown.  How long do new players stick around.  What mods are players using.

 

You can tell alot about what they players think and how much they are enjoying things by how they are playing.  I dont know what data they do have but they must have some, they should trust that.

Edited June 7, 2014 by calabi

[Hyperius]

I think it'd be interesting if DE could release a very limited "Creation" kit of sorts working with a plugin system for an offline version of Warframe so that interested members of the community could take their time to create "mods" (mods as in Skyrim-styled mods, not mod cards) illustrating some of their proposed balancing changes. 

 

I'm all for this. 

 

You also voiced my mostly silent opinion about what mods SHOULD be: customization and auxiliary function.

 

Elemental damage should be axed, replaced by elemental utility functions and limited to one per weapon. Warframe powers should be strong utility function first (and inherit the elemental damage utility), then damage second. And power overlap is not a bad thing. Mod slots should be reduced and vary in number between weapons, and the 3 damage types should be reduced to function rather than straight damage numbers. It should be raw weapon damage, innate punch through, and weapon force. Enemy shield function should be overhauled, as should armor. Shields could constantly recharge until completely depleted, making it advantageous to bring a hard hitting weapon to knock down defense quickly. Armor can make certain parts of enemies immune to damage which requires a bit of aim or a high punch through value. These changes can even transfer the Tenno themselves. As it stands, damage is so ridiculously high, that even if DE DID add behaviors (not new animations, new enemy behaviors), they wouldn't be seen by a portion of the community because of the god-like powers of some of the weapons and warframes. EDIT: This would also add much needed variety to the gameplay.

 

I may have a piece of paper that says I know what I'm doing, but that doesn't mean my ideas will work. I want to try it out and see if my changes for the game actually add value to the experience. Everything in my post sounds good in my head, which is why I have chosen to not say anything about it for a long time. I want to test my ideas out instead of playing armchair game designer.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Hyperius

[DiabolusUrsus]

they siad it in the devstream... we want the player to feel like a "deity" against mobs. nerfin, reduction of power, and all of the things we see so often in the forums, are things i have long ago gave for nullified. it was clear to me since i started playing that this game was not meant for tactic gameplay or anything in those lines. but more of a "i am a god among men" kind of thing. When we ask DE to change their vision, we only make em look away from us. instead, we should try to negotiate means to accommodate what we are asking for, without deviating too much from their goals.

what notionphil suggested fits in these lines exceptionaly well. (dude i couldnt agree more with your suggestions). We only need to concentrate on where these ideas should be placed, in order to avoid a major interference with DE's aproach and goals in terms of playability. 

i think everyone here agree that the new mobs (the proc ones) SUCK big time. And that we need, time to time, a mob that remind us to focus and pay attention, instead of "ill put your health down no matter how skilled you are". that is all we really need. there is not necessity to make all mobs, everywhere, hard to beat. its just to remind us, that even deities need to use their brains time to time.

  Is it too hard to have "a game within a game"? i said it at phil's post, dark sectors could house the veterans playground perfectly, and we wouldnt even need to touch the star chart.

although, i will put my faith on DE. i know where they come from and i know how much they want this game to succeed. they will get their #%# in line eventually. and if they don't, well too bad and sad, i love em the same.

off topic: i would gladly wait for months without new content if thats what DE needs to pair ps4 and pc updates, that should be a relieve to them. and thats what a player that realy wants to see the game evolve would do...if necessary.

I understand this, and I agree with it, but I want to say that what you think I am asking for is in no way what I am asking for. Yes, the player should feel like a god among men, so to speak, but that doesn't mean that they should be nigh-invulnerable. There's no real merit to feeling like a god if you can't be brought back down to earth. I'm not saying "make everything difficult," or even "nerf the damage of powerful weapon x." For example, the Penta doesn't need a damage nerf. It needs an ammo efficiency nerf. The problem is that people don't understand that "nerf" does not mean that their godhood is being rescinded. The most recent example that springs to mind is the set of changes made to Trinity. You may recall that it was followed by a veritable S#&$-storm of "OMG TRINITY IS USELESS NOW YOU KILLED HER BYE." 

The only actual "nerf" she was hit with was no longer being able to provide immunity to one-hit kill attacks, which really shouldn't be part of the game to begin with. 

 

On the flip-side, her Energy Vampire was buffed into awesomeness in that killing an enemy hit with the ability gives you a near-instant energy recharge, and Blessing's actual intended function was improved by a reduction to its cast time. It is now easier to save teammates from the brink of death with a full restore. Energy Vampire means that she can use Link almost constantly, and Blessing should never be far out of reach. 

People didn't really notice that she was shifted into a better-defined healer/support role by the changes because they were pre-occupied with the "nerf" to Blessing's invulnerability. 

 

Having used her both pre- and post- nerf, Trinity is still a veritable god. She's just not completely invulnerable, which necessitates the player staying attentive and engaged in the game. I can't see that as anything but a beneficial change. 

[Davoodoo]

they siad it in the devstream... we want the player to feel like a "deity" against mobs. nerfin, reduction of power, and all of the things we see so often in the forums, are things i have long ago gave for nullified. it was clear to me since i started playing that this game was not meant for tactic gameplay or anything in those lines. but more of a "i am a god among men" kind of thing. When we ask DE to change their vision, we only make em look away from us. instead, we should try to negotiate means to accommodate what we are asking for, without deviating too much from their goals.

what notionphil suggested fits in these lines exceptionaly well. (dude i couldnt agree more with your suggestions). We only need to concentrate on where these ideas should be placed, in order to avoid a major interference with DE's aproach and goals in terms of playability. 

i think everyone here agree that the new mobs (the proc ones) SUCK big time. And that we need, time to time, a mob that remind us to focus and pay attention, instead of "ill put your health down no matter how skilled you are". that is all we really need. there is not necessity to make all mobs, everywhere, hard to beat. its just to remind us, that even deities need to use their brains time to time.

  Is it too hard to have "a game within a game"? i said it at phil's post, dark sectors could house the veterans playground perfectly, and we wouldnt even need to touch the star chart.

although, i will put my faith on DE. i know where they come from and i know how much they want this game to succeed. they will get their #%# in line eventually. and if they don't, well too bad and sad, i love em the same.

off topic: i would gladly wait for months without new content if thats what DE needs to pair ps4 and pc updates, that should be a relieve to them. and thats what a player that realy wants to see the game evolve would do...if necessary.

Good god simulator tries to show player that its because of player that character is nigh invulnerable, in contrary, warframe shows us that only thing that makes us god is our gear which we get by praying everyday to higher deity the "rngesus".

 

Thats ofc before de introduces us with endless scaling and doubling enemy power every 10 lvls to the point where we become ants in gods sandbox if we dont use our protection talisman, namely snow globe, iron skin or blessing.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Davoodoo

[BloodArmoredApostle]

Warframe so far is the only game ive seen where enemies die from single hit from rapid fire weapon and thats biggest problem imo.

Trying to do anything but shooting your enemy is pointless due to amount of our dmg. Even if they shoot however 1 shot wont be enough to beat us.

 

If they however could withstand at least 3 shots from typical assault rifle at least few from their squad would make it into cover even if we ambush them.

 

Then we got punchthrough which makes cover obsolete, something should done about it. 

Reduced dmg is first thing that comes into my mind. It would make shooting through cover possible but not the most effective way to deal with enemies.

 

Reducing player power must come first before attempting to make enemies challenging, i simply see no other way to make it happen.

you haven't played enough games bro