Devstream 30: An Unexpectedly Large Blow To My Hopes For The Game

[Davoodoo]

I think you're overreacting on the boss issue.

 

Just because they want you to plan accordingly for a boss does not mean there will be a strict, narrow path to defeating it. It doesn't mean that there's only one set of mods, one weapon, or one frame carrying the specific power that's needed to defeat the boss, it means that they want players to think about what they're doing. A common complaint I see on these forums, one that never fails to make me think the issuer is flat out stupid, is that they can't just take whatever equipment, with whatever mods, to whatever mission and do well. If every choice is right, then it invalidates making a choice at all.

I really wouldnt have the problem with that if we had more than 1 weapon on specific power lvl.

 

Ofc i dont want every weapon to have 22k, it would be horror, i would like them to establish proper tiers and do some balancing or this will never work.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Davoodoo

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

I quote: "But a player should still be able to succeed at bringing him down with a sword through a greater expenditure of effort and demonstration of skill."

It should be much (much, much) harder, but ultimately still feasible.

 

I agree, to an extent. Being completely impossible isn't fun, but we have the game as it is right now. Currently, it's wise to bring a backup gun, even if it's just a pistol and you don't end up using it. If they choose to expand melee even more, power power to them. I'd be very interested in seeing that.

 

On the other hand, Ialso believe that requiring all bosses/enemies to be defeatable through all means will ultimately limit the variety. With their wall-clinging, close-range firepower and auras, I don't think it's practical to do melee-only hyenas right now. They're also probably my favorite boss because you fight them in normal tiles instead of boss rooms and you can get a different set of them each time, sometimes with them in leader form with still different powers. Having Hyena Th spawn makes using powers on them next to impossible, and the shield disruption makes melee just as hard unless you are playing a very limited set of frames.

 

I'd be very disappointed if they reduced the difficulty and variety of my favorite boss just to make power spam and melee better options.

[MageMeat]

I agree, to an extent. Being completely impossible isn't fun, but we have the game as it is right now. Currently, it's wise to bring a backup gun, even if it's just a pistol and you don't end up using it. If they choose to expand melee even more, power power to them. I'd be very interested in seeing that.

 

On the other hand, Ialso believe that requiring all bosses/enemies to be defeatable through all means will ultimately limit the variety. With their wall-clinging, close-range firepower and auras, I don't think it's practical to do melee-only hyenas right now. They're also probably my favorite boss because you fight them in normal tiles instead of boss rooms and you can get a different set of them each time, sometimes with them in leader form with still different powers. Having Hyena Th spawn makes using powers on them next to impossible, and the shield disruption makes melee just as hard unless you are playing a very limited set of frames.

 

I'd be very disappointed if they reduced the difficulty and variety of my favorite boss just to make power spam and melee better options.

There will always be a more logical way to play the game, and most people will act accordingly (ie. use ranged weapons against the Hyenas).

There will also always be masochists who will take the melee only route.

[Noble_Cactus]

I agree, to an extent. Being completely impossible isn't fun, but we have the game as it is right now. Currently, it's wise to bring a backup gun, even if it's just a pistol and you don't end up using it. If they choose to expand melee even more, power power to them. I'd be very interested in seeing that.

 

On the other hand, Ialso believe that requiring all bosses/enemies to be defeatable through all means will ultimately limit the variety. With their wall-clinging, close-range firepower and auras, I don't think it's practical to do melee-only hyenas right now. They're also probably my favorite boss because you fight them in normal tiles instead of boss rooms and you can get a different set of them each time, sometimes with them in leader form with still different powers. Having Hyena Th spawn makes using powers on them next to impossible, and the shield disruption makes melee just as hard unless you are playing a very limited set of frames.

 

I'd be very disappointed if they reduced the difficulty and variety of my favorite boss just to make power spam and melee better options.

 

I don't think the OP is asking for all of the approaches a player might take to defeating a boss to be viable. What I got out of it is that he wants there to be the possibility of defeating a boss however you want. Not that taking melee into the fight is going to perform equally as well as gunplay, and that bosses should be toned down to accomodate these choices. Hence the Dark Souls example. Putting hard restrictions on a player's options is just as limiting as giving them too many homogenous options.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[notlamprey]

We are moved to tears by the rightness of this post!

 

I was so frustrated watching today's stream, barely ONE WHOLE DAY after I said I was making a concerted effort to trust DE's judgement in directing their game.

 

AGH.

 

I want every single senior member of DE staff to pack up, take some vacation and play Star Tropics for the NES. Don't come back to work until you have. That game is what happens when you just throw ideas together without making sure they work harmoniously. It's full of elements that are totally satisfying on their own, but crash down together in a heap of frustration and table flipping.

 

No, I don't mean watching a playthrough on Youtube. Play the thing yourself. You guys have got to get a broader knowledge base to draw from in design decision-making. The stuff you guys were talking about today makes me think you folks need to catch up on some CECs, or at least reconnect with your history of game experiences.

 

It's incredibly wasteful to just throw piles of hard work into the game and try to make them passable after the fact. There has got to be a better way.

 

Disclaimer: DE might totally blow me away and invalidate all my fears, and I need to allow for that possibility. So there ya go, DE.

[DiabolusUrsus]

I agree, to an extent. Being completely impossible isn't fun, but we have the game as it is right now. Currently, it's wise to bring a backup gun, even if it's just a pistol and you don't end up using it. If they choose to expand melee even more, power power to them. I'd be very interested in seeing that.

 

On the other hand, Ialso believe that requiring all bosses/enemies to be defeatable through all means will ultimately limit the variety. With their wall-clinging, close-range firepower and auras, I don't think it's practical to do melee-only hyenas right now. They're also probably my favorite boss because you fight them in normal tiles instead of boss rooms and you can get a different set of them each time, sometimes with them in leader form with still different powers. Having Hyena Th spawn makes using powers on them next to impossible, and the shield disruption makes melee just as hard unless you are playing a very limited set of frames.

 

I'd be very disappointed if they reduced the difficulty and variety of my favorite boss just to make power spam and melee better options.

 

You're misunderstanding what I'm asking for here, and I have to say that you are completely wrong about "limiting variety." I'm not saying "nerf the bosses to make them less punishing in melee." I'm saying "Make it at least possible to kill them in melee." The Hyenas would be a poor example, because it is already possible to damage them with melee weapons. Ergo, it is possible to use melee on them. Sargas Ruk would be a good example, because he does not take damage from melee, period. Unless there's some sort of melee weapon that happens to connect with his weak spots that I don't know about. 

Right now, it is only possible to kill him with firearms. If it were made possible to kill him with Warframe powers or with melee weapons, how would that make things less variable? If there are more available options, then there is an inherently greater potential for variety, end of story. Sure, most people will go with whatever option is the easiest and most effective, but they are no longer forced to. 

 

For example, the most I would do to the Hyena fight would be making their auxiliary procs avoidable through blocking or dodging. This would help melee only players, but it's not aimed specifically at helping them. It would also help gun-wielding and power-wielding players, and every combination of equipment in-between. At the same time, that would make stronger procs justifiable. As a player, flubbing up will result in some heavy punishment, but it's entirely within your own control whether or not you get hit with that punishment. It's no longer "Deal damage as fast as you can because once those abilities fire off you're done." Is it possible to circumvent insta-gib attacks like Jackal's grenade spew? Yes. The fact that the best way of doing that is stun-locking him into a damage state is a problem, though. 

 

I agree that the game shouldn't be changed simply to accommodate people's foolishness. At the same time, I don't think players should ever be left completely helpless. That's just bad game design. 

 

I don't think the OP is asking for all of the approaches a player might take to defeating a boss to be viable. What I got out of it is that he wants there to be the possibility of defeating a boss however you want. Not that taking melee into the fight is going to perform equally as well as gunplay, and that bosses should be toned down to accomodate these choices. Putting hard restrictions on a player's options is just as limiting as giving them too many homogenous options.

 

This is more or less precisely what I'm saying. 

 

To put it in the perspective of another DMC4 boss, take the example of Credo. His shield makes it really hard to land damaging normal attacks on him, and it will take impractically long to break his guard using only your sword/gun as Nero. (Dante has other options available to him, but he's all about versatility.) The intelligent and/or experienced player will use Nero's Devil Bringer to progressively work towards breaking the shield for a while to enable more damaging combos. At the same time, it is still perfectly possible to just wail on him until he goes down. Is it viable or even advisable to do so? No, but it doesn't need to be. As long as the player has some means of resistance to their fate, however slight. 

 

Helplessness is not fun. Occasionally finding yourself in a severely disadvantaged situation and managing to beat the odds through effort, skill, and a little luck is. 

 

My concern with melee-only is not that they aren't catering directly to melee-only playstyles. It is that they are introducing enemies and bosses that are impossible to defeat using melee after directly stating that it should be possible. As long as it is possible, I'm satisfied. 

[TonyFoot]

Wow. Good job, OP. Been waiting for someone to say this for a looong time. never could quite figure out how to say it myself, but thank God Lotus for devstreams, eh?

 

mostly agree with eximi/prosecutors point, they could have very much been better executed, and they really do hamper solo play (shield bypass in ANY form is REALLY friggin annoying unless telegraphed, and DE refuses to understand that for some reason. also, arbitrary resistances to everything but one element feels cheap, poorly executed and forces solo-ers into a specific mod load out, which, as you have pointed out, is bad design for a large number of reasons.).

Only thing I like about these guys is the fact that if I kill them faster than they can proc/hit them harder than their shields can handle, I get a huge chunk of exp, and that feels somewhat rewarding.

I would still prefer the removal of agency/solo-play killers over all else, but I hope we can keep this sense of reward-for-effort.

 

Only problem I see with making every boss and enemy viable with melee 2.0 is programming and implementation (granted that probably should have been done AT U13, but considering how hard we hyped that...I digress).

If your going to make every boss and enemy melee 2.0 viable, that means you need every foe in the game to interact with melee 2.0, which is a lot of designing, programming, animating and general hard work, making sure that all enemies have at least a semi-unique result when attacked with melee 2.0 tactics (stuff like quick-times, combo counters, melee showdowns etc.)

Also, Parrying right now is just screwed up, because, as Geoff said, it was too easy and you could just parry-kill your way through everything, but in the end it was a stupid argument because we can just dakka-dakka through everything right now anyway!

 

All-in-all, +1. 

Edited June 6, 2014 by TonyFoot

[Recel]

I really wished that we would be moving away for gear check game to skill check game. But I guess that will never happen.

All the new mobs, all the new things just shout "Spend more time and stuff on me!" or "Put more bullets in me faster than before!"

[Noble_Cactus]

We are moved to tears by the rightness of this post!

 

I was so frustrated watching today's stream, barely ONE WHOLE DAY after I said I was making a concerted effort to trust DE's judgement in directing their game.

 

AGH.

 

I want every single senior member of DE staff to pack up, take some vacation and play Star Tropics for the NES. Don't come back to work until you have. That game is what happens when you just throw ideas together without making sure they work harmoniously. It's full of elements that are totally satisfying on their own, but crash down together in a heap of frustration and table flipping.

 

No, I don't mean watching a playthrough on Youtube. Play the thing yourself. You guys have got to get a broader knowledge base to draw from in design decision-making. The stuff you guys were talking about today makes me think you folks need to catch up on some CECs, or at least reconnect with your history of game experiences.

 

It's incredibly wasteful to just throw piles of hard work into the game and try to make them passable after the fact. There has got to be a better way.

 

Disclaimer: DE might totally blow me away and invalidate all my fears, and I need to allow for that possibility. So there ya go, DE.

 

Oh man. At least we don't have to uncover any hidden messages in the manual.

 

Though DE's unwillingness to explain how their armor system works - and how just about anything in this game works - often approaches that level of frustration and "Why?" game design, without any of the "Oh they were experimenting with how players relate to their games in the physical world" angle.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

You're misunderstanding what I'm asking for here, and I have to say that you are completely wrong about "limiting variety." I'm not saying "nerf the bosses to make them less punishing in melee." I'm saying "Make it at least possible to kill them in melee." The Hyenas would be a poor example, because it is already possible to damage them with melee weapons. Ergo, it is possible to use melee on them. Sargas Ruk would be a good example, because he does not take damage from melee, period. Unless there's some sort of melee weapon that happens to connect with his weak spots that I don't know about.

Right now, it is only possible to kill him with firearms. If it were made possible to kill him with Warframe powers or with melee weapons, how would that make things less variable? If there are more available options, then there is an inherently greater potential for variety, end of story. Sure, most people will go with whatever option is the easiest and most effective, but they are no longer forced to.

For example, the most I would do to the Hyena fight would be making their auxiliary procs avoidable through blocking or dodging. This would help melee only players, but it's not aimed specifically at helping them. It would also help gun-wielding and power-wielding players, and every combination of equipment in-between. At the same time, that would make stronger procs justifiable. As a player, flubbing up will result in some heavy punishment, but it's entirely within your own control whether or not you get hit with that punishment. It's no longer "Deal damage as fast as you can because once those abilities fire off you're done." Is it possible to circumvent insta-gib attacks like Jackal's grenade spew? Yes. The fact that the best way of doing that is stun-locking him into a damage state is a problem, though.

I agree that the game shouldn't be changed simply to accommodate people's foolishness. At the same time, I don't think players should ever be left completely helpless. That's just bad game design.

I understood what you were asking for, but I don't think you got what I was saying. It will restrict what the devs can do with bosses if extremly handicapped players must be able to defeat them.

We'll use the new Derf Anyo as an example.

His totally sweet hoverboard? If players must be able to defeat him with melee only, his flight and speed must be restricted. He cannot fly higher than players can reach (there's another threat complaining about not being able to kill drones melee only where the OP steadfastly refuses to bring a gun and would rather fail) and Derf cannot fly faster than players can run (there is another thread complaining about not being able to melee-only capture targets with gauntlets and a slow stance). Now Derf and his styling new helmet are barely better than any other slow, ground-based boss.

There isn't more variety, there's the illusion of more variety. You feel like you have more options, but all your options are really the same. You attack the slow moving boss like you would any other. It's just a bag of hitpoints. It can't have anything other than a big pool of health because some Thrak Rhino with gauntlet weapons and no guns needs to be able to beat him too.

I believe their goal is to make bosses which can't simply be flavor-of-the-month spray cannoned down in five seconds. Do to this, they need strategies and gimmicks, and those mean not every approach can be viable for every boss.

Edited June 7, 2014 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Noble_Cactus]

I understood what you were asking for, but I don't think you got what I was saying. It will restrict what the devs can do with bosses if extremly handicapped players must be able to defeat them.

 

We'll use the new Derf Anyo as an example.

 

His totally sweet hoverboard? If players must be able to defeat him with melee only, his flight and speed must be restricted. He cannot fly higher than players can reach (there's another threat complaining about not being able to kill drones melee only where the OP steadfastly refuses to bring a gun and would rather fail) and Derf cannot fly faster than players can run (there is another thread complaining about not being able to melee-only capture targets with gauntlets and a slow stance). Now Derf and his styling new helmet are barely better than any other slow, ground-based boss.

 

There isn't more variety, there's the illusion of more variety. You feel like you have more options, but all your options are really the same. You attack the slow moving boss like you would any other. It's just a bag of hitpoints. It can't have anything other than a big pool of health because some Thrak Rhino with gauntlet weapons and no guns needs to be able to beat him too.

 

 

I'm not usually one to say this, and I'm usually annoyed when someone does say it, but I think we'd need to see how the boss is implemented first as well as what his stage is like. Or, at least, see what his design documents. For all we know, Derf's stage could have 3-4 raised platforms floating around, and players can climb on top of these to gain a better vantage point. At the same time, these platforms make players vulnerable to Derf's attacks; a missile barrage can knock players off the platform and back onto the floor or into an abyss. As for Derf himself, he could occasionally stop flying around for a very brief moment to launch a missile barrage. During this phase, melee players could parkour off a wall onto a platform where he stops and give him a few good whacks in the face before he takes off again. Gunplay has the obvious advantage here, but an attentive player will take advantage of his brief stop to shoot him in the head. A melee player will have to predict where he'll be (maybe there are 3-4 different places where he can stop, or maybe there is a way to force him to stop by hitting his board and causing it to malfunction), but is still able to defeat Derf through careful positioning and reaction. The only dumbing down I see in my example is that Derf stops every now and then, but if we assume that he's going to be flying around so fast that even an automatic weapon has trouble tracking him, this might also be a reprieve for gun players.

 

Now if we were to remove melee entirely from this equation, would this version of Derf be a dumbed down boss? Probably not. Player skill comes in when they have to predict where Derf will fly, where he'll stop, and maybe what attacks he'll do when he does stop (missiles, a beam they have to jump, stuff like that). If he didn't stop, then what would he be? Probably a big meatbag with a lot of hitpoints that moves around really fast. Gee whizz. Fun.

 

That's a lot of assumptions and variables, but then again that's my point. We don't really know how he's going to work, and for all we know he might be flying around at annoyingly-quick speeds, where a brief stop is a window of opportunity (imagine if Raptor was constantly zipping around its arena and how un-fun that boss would be). Bosses and enemies -can- be designed without merely giving the illusion of choice... though in this case, the "choice" is hard coded by the stopping mechanic. I think the biggest problem we have here is that DE doesn't know how to design an engaging boss :x

Edited June 7, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[Marthrym]

Thank you OP, thanks to you I don't have to do a wall of text to explain everything. You did it perfectly. THANK YOU. SO MUCH. I LOVE YOU.

[Ganpot]

I understood what you were asking for, but I don't think you got what I was saying. It will restrict what the devs can do with bosses if extremly handicapped players must be able to defeat them.

 

We'll use the new Derf Anyo as an example.

 

His totally sweet hoverboard? If players must be able to defeat him with melee only, his flight and speed must be restricted. He cannot fly higher than players can reach (there's another threat complaining about not being able to kill drones melee only where the OP steadfastly refuses to bring a gun and would rather fail) and Derf cannot fly faster than players can run (there is another thread complaining about not being able to melee-only capture targets with gauntlets and a slow stance). Now Derf and his styling new helmet are barely better than any other slow, ground-based boss.

 

There isn't more variety, there's the illusion of more variety. You feel like you have more options, but all your options are really the same. You attack the slow moving boss like you would any other. It's just a bag of hitpoints. It can't have anything other than a big pool of health because some Thrak Rhino with gauntlet weapons and no guns needs to be able to beat him too.

 

Not necessarily.  Look at what Dark Souls 1 did with bosses such as the moonlight butterfly.  Occasionally, the butterfly will land somewhere on the arena (presumably to rest), at which point a melee character can attack it for a short period of time.  Ranged attacks are still vastly more efficient in that fight, but the developers allowed melee characters to play their own way if they really wanted to.  Even better, that small change means that characters will have vastly different experiences and goals during the fight.  Melee characters will simply be trying to survive until the butterfly lands, while ranged characters will be trying to burst it down as quickly as possible (while still avoiding its attacks, obviously).  A boss fight doesn't have to be completely re-worked to cater to different play-styles; it just needs to make small efforts to allow them. 

 

But let's be honest here: if anything is going to restrict what the devs can do while designing bosses, it will be the ludicrous amount of damage players are capable of.  That pretty much guarantees weak-spots, damage caps, and invulnerability phases. 

[sh0ckv3l]

glad to see these kind of threads, i got bashed out by some random fanboy everytime i question this game.

 

They need (and i mean, NOW!) to really work on this game. Engine, content, mechanics...they should be the @(*()$ priority, not the clantech weapon or the platinum-only items. Christ, i don't think there's a single person in here that find amusing complaining/moaning/whining/*@##$ing against Warframe just for the sake of it. We love the game but we can't be mesmerized buy tons of hotfixes that infact are quite pointless (color fixes, sound fixes etc...c'mon u gotta be kidding me) nor by a new random shiny weapon that brings ZERO to the game itself.

 

You know what is really sad? That this thread will just fade away without DE actually caring. Even if the OP has given them the best feedback they could look for.

 

 

p.s.: as i said many times, this game won't get anything it really needs unless it can be bought via plats.

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

snip

 

I'd jokingly suggest that it's unfair to force players to use parkour if they don't want to, but it sounds too believable for these forums. Players refusing to use one core aspect (guns) and another (parkour) is just too similar.

 

I believe my point stands. The reason the bosses aren't engaging, is because players don't have to use much teamwork or strategy to defeat them. They can do whatever, so their reaction to the boss is 'whatever.'

 

Derf could require being lured in, CC'd off his board or the board shot out from under him, and then do some funky moves getting back to it. Frames without CC would rely on guns, frames without guns would need to be packing CC powers.

 

Though, you are right, we can't use Derf as a stright example until we know what the fight is like. It was just one I could use that hasn't been tainted by someone finding the BEST OPTIMAL PRO STRAT and deciding that everything else "wasn't viable."

 

Not necessarily.  Look at what Dark Souls 1 did with bosses such as the moonlight butterfly.  Occasionally, the butterfly will land somewhere on the arena (presumably to rest), at which point a melee character can attack it for a short period of time.  Ranged attacks are still vastly more efficient in that fight, but the developers allowed melee characters to play their own way if they really wanted to.  Even better, that small change means that characters will have vastly different experiences and goals during the fight.  Melee characters will simply be trying to survive until the butterfly lands, while ranged characters will be trying to burst it down as quickly as possible (while still avoiding its attacks, obviously).  A boss fight doesn't have to be completely re-worked to cater to different play-styles; it just needs to make small efforts to allow them. 

 

But let's be honest here: if anything is going to restrict what the devs can do while designing bosses, it will be the ludicrous amount of damage players are capable of.  That pretty much guarantees weak-spots, damage caps, and invulnerability phases. 

 

I love Dark Souls, but I'm not sure it really applies here. It's a very different game. You only play one character and your stats are more or less locked in. If they made a boss where ranged attacks (bows and magic) didn't work, some characters would be completely unable to progress.

 

In warframe, you can completely change yourself, frame, build, weapons, weapon mods, and tactics employed, at the drop of a hat and it's almost always coop. Even if you somehow manage to have nothing that can handle a situation, someone else playing the mission, which it will join you up with automatically, will. You can support them while they take the boss down.

 

And, like I said, completely impossible is bad. Very nearly, though? Sure. It will make doing it the way you weren't intended to actually impressive instead of making the "Ultimate Tenno Challenge" something people think they deserve to complete on everything with anything.

[DirkDeadeye]

I honestly think it's like the designers don't actually play the game.

 

Or maybe the feedback has so much conjecture, and squabbling over 'exclusives' that they've turned a blind eye to it.

 

The drection I see this game is circular. Down a drain.

 

Still haven't @(*()$ addressed spectre regiments have they? Or the DS/Proxy wars. Outside of that wishy-washy sort of moba-esque thing we saw eariler.

 

Get on the @(*()$ forums and talk to us. Because these streams are hair pullingly frustrating to watch.

[RancidTurnip1603]

I honestly think it's like the designers design the game, not balance it.

 

The feedback has a ridiculous amount of conjecture and negative doom and gloom posters, hence the necessity of the design council forums.

 

The direction I see this game is up. Bugs are constantly being fixed, fun new content added regularly, only thing lacking is a little more attention to the old content.

 

I feel sorry for any of the devs that take a wrong turn and end up in these forums.

[DirkDeadeye]

I honestly think it's like the designers design the game, not balance it.

 

The feedback has a ridiculous amount of conjecture and negative doom and gloom posters, hence the necessity of the design council forums.

 

 

..someone show him a screenshot of that fiasco. This pales in comparison. LOL

[Kyphe]

A bandaid solution to the boss problem we have now in regards to not knowing what set up we need so having a good chance of not having the right weapon is for DE to actually provide special weapons on station that can be picked up and used.

 

you use your weapons to get to the fight and the provided weapons for the boss, once you have used to provided weapon you get an entry in the index like a scan, which tells you what the properties are so then you know how to mod your weapons if you think yours would be more powerful.

[notionphil]

I honestly think it's like the designers design the game, not balance it.

 

The feedback has a ridiculous amount of conjecture and negative doom and gloom posters, hence the necessity of the design council forums.

 

The direction I see this game is up. Bugs are constantly being fixed, fun new content added regularly, only thing lacking is a little more attention to the old content.

 

I feel sorry for any of the devs that take a wrong turn and end up in these forums.

 

You certainly don't want to see what's behind that design council "curtain". The lack of substance would put the Wizard of Oz to shame.

 

What this game needs is player representatives. More than ever.

[Sasquatchias]

You certainly don't want to see what's behind that design council "curtain". The lack of substance would put the Wizard of Oz to shame.

 

What this game needs is player representatives. More than ever.

If that happens I hope that you, Volt, and all the other people like you all (people that discuss their opinions and ideas in calm, constructive manners) are chosen to be those representatives.

[F1UXie]

I missed the Dev stream where I was at work, but this topic leaves me a little concerned about the future of this game. I think the problem is you have so many players wanting more challenge in the game that they'll accept any difficulty spike whether it's cheap or unbalanced. For instance, when the Broken lights came out, there were actually a few people defending them by telling everyone it made the game more challenging.  

 

The same can even be said about the Grineer Commander's switch teleport which has no line of sight and can put players in a stun for 1-2 seconds when there is nothing they can do about it. There have been numerous threads discussing on how to improve the functionality of the attack, but you always get a few people who want to keep it just because it makes things more difficult. I agree with the OP that there is a difference between making a challenge that is fun by overcoming it with skill and preparation vs a challenge that delivers a cheap sucker punch which you have to rely on luck to succeed.

 

One is a lot of fun. The other only causes frustration.

[CY13ERPUNK]

i literally cannot upvote you enough OP

 

+9999999999999999999

[grillv20]

I really do wish the game had more ninja-like things when it came to fighting bosses or taking down enemies. I do completely agree with probably all of what the OP said. Its just really a shame that most of what he said probably wont be realized without them stopping what they're doing and going back and reworking everything as a whole. I do feel that they really strayed away from the whole space ninja thing and that was what appealed to me the most when i started playing the game in closed beta. 

 

I would love to see bosses that actually present a challenge rather than blasting them down and waiting for their stupid invincibility whatever animation crap to go away so I can just kill it and have it be done. Its not rewarding and it makes me feel as if every time they actually go and put a new boss in its just a complete waste of my time and their time. Like, who actually really thought it would be a cool idea to make killing a boss SLOWER so we could see the cool new "phases" they put into the fight? Its a waste of my time and their own time. Why even bother reworking something in the first place? Its not fresh and its not fun. Its nothing more than just annoying and makes me not want to fight those bosses anymore. 

 

If you want to actually do a boss fight take a look at some other games and improve on your whole "ninja" system some more. What brought me to this game in the first place was how flashy all the movements were. Take a game like Shadow of the Colossus or even games like Dragon's Dogma where you can climb all over enemies to kill them. Give us the ability to do jumping attacks or something. SOMETHING where we can actually get to places where melee attacks wouldn't normally be able to reach by our current warframe standards. Take your melee system and keep running with it. There is literally no reason to ever stop working on the melee system in warframe seeing as you could be doing so much more with it.

 

With the whole advent of melee 2.0 I am thoroughly disappointed and let down by how much I don't actually use it vs. the time I spent looking forward to it since it was first announced. I even hyped my friends up about it that were put off by the game when they first played it. Its so hard to get my friends to play this game because they outright think it sucks. -_-

Edited June 7, 2014 by grillv20

[notlamprey]

I spent a little time thinking about it, and decided that the new enemy types and abilities wouldn't be so horrible as long as our HUD can inform us, in real time, about special enemies entering the field.

 

Tangerine's awesome HUD mockup thread from forever ago (an early contributor of the gear radial concept, among other things) included the idea of "Augmented Reality" HUD elements. These could be used to make the new enemy types a challenge of skill and awareness.

 

I'd like to propose a compromise. Scanning certain enemies into our codex could give us access to optional AR HUD alerts that can mark these "mini-boss" types on our map, in addition to marking them on-screen.

 

This would allow for what I'd consider to be an immersion-friendly way of dealing with more threatening enemies. Sure, you might be surprised by them once or twice, but scanning them into the codex would provide the Lotus with data on "signatures" for early detection in the field. This idea could be applied to any range of enemy types, and integrated via a range of dialogue/flavor text options.

 

It's a rough idea, but it might be the solution we're looking for.