Devstream 30: An Unexpectedly Large Blow To My Hopes For The Game

[z.ck]

I agree to an extent. But WF lacks a certain... spirit required to make all of those changes mesh together. Its heart isn't in the right place. I find it hard to describe what it is other than hollow, if that makes any sense.

 

I don't like to point fingers at any one aspect of development, but I still do think that how they're approaching the F2P model has sucked some of the vitality out of this game. Why refine old assets that don't make money when you could just introduce new ones? And if you don't introduce new ones, hungry fans will realize that beneath them, there's no substance! Just look at all the complaint threads that appear when content arrives late.

 

So DE has locked themselves into a self-perpetuating cycle of releasing ephemeral content to cover up a lack in the core gameplay.

 

This says it all.

[Yefrign]

the only thing I am not looking forward to is the new Infested types... I mean more poison? its lethal enough with just ONE Infested type... now theres going to be at least 3 more... Either that poison seriously needs to be re-looked at again (example: it does NOT bypass shields, or we start getting Poison resistance mods) or everyone will never use melee against infested again (unless you are Rhino or Tryn or some other frame with a gimmick that can nullify the poison effectiveness)

 

I love fighting infested, especially since I can focus on using melee against them. then the disruptors and toxics become my No1 enemy to hate since they can screw me over if I let my guard down. even the Chargers can be pretty lethal if I am not careful, especially the higher level they are. 

 

While I think new enemy types is fantastic. I am worried about how many more "poison" themed enemies are going to appear... especially since very few frames have any sort of defense against it (massive health pools and something like Iron Skin, Link or Blessing should not be the "go to" for a mechanic like this. Hell Saryn is a "Poison" based frame for the most part... why isn't she immune or at LEAST resistant to that sort of thing? that's a discussion for another time) 

 

With how Poison (and in some regards Slash/Bleed) currently works in game. I strongly believe that the mechanic in how it behaves needs another look at. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by Fartbake

[Nagisawa]

Game is a third person shooter with some progression, economic and customisation elements. 

It's a loose co-op game. Meaning solo players can play solo and the game caters for them. 

 

No it doesn't.  Most solo players will not be able to reach the level 20 mobs alone.  The XP progression is limited to most of the main weapon you use (So if you primarily use say a Rifle/Bow, and neglect Secondary, you'll get more XP for the Primary, a little for the secondary and none for the Melee.)  Worse, you get minimal XP that way.

 

Mods drop much less for a single player compared to Co-Op.  As do Credits and materials.

 

And that's not going into the potentially brutal respawn rate Defense and Survival missions get.

 

Unless you run a Rhino, the odds of actually completing some planets as a solo player is nearly nil, unless you are exceptionally skilled.  Which I'm sad to say most of us are not.

[Beladric]

the only thing I am not looking forward to is the new Infested types... I mean more poison? its lethal enough with just ONE Infested type... now theres going to be at least 3 more... Either that poison seriously needs to be re-looked at again (example: it does NOT bypass shields, or we start getting Poison resistance mods) or everyone will never use melee against infested again (unless you are Rhino or Tryn or some other frame with a gimmick that can nullify the poison effectiveness)

 

I love fighting infested, especially since I can focus on using melee against them. then the disruptors and toxics become my No1 enemy to hate since they can screw me over if I let my guard down. even the Chargers can be pretty lethal if I am not careful, especially the higher level they are. 

 

While I think new enemy types is fantastic. I am worried about how many more "poison" themed enemies are going to appear... especially since very few frames have any sort of defense against it (massive health pools and something like Iron Skin, Link or Blessing should not be the "go to" for a mechanic like this. Hell Saryn is a "Poison" based frame for the most part... why isn't she immune or at LEAST resistant to that sort of thing? that's a discussion for another time) 

 

With how Poison (and in some regards Slash/Bleed) currently works in game. I strongly believe that the mechanic in how it behaves needs another look at. 

 

This kind of returns to what I mentioned about numbers before. Slash procs and Poison procs can and often are positively lethal, disproportionately so given they ignore shields. I'm not sure the mechanic itself needs a look at, so much as the output from it.

 

I am not a fan of a enemy that makes one half of our defense against damage completely pointless. As far as I'm concerned, the ability to ignore shields belongs on bosses with heavily telegraphed attacks and not in many other places. Toxic Ancients are some of the most obnoxious enemies in the game, closely followed by Eviscerators, and its solely because their procs do far more then they logically should.

 

Maybe proc output needs to be looked at. It is ultimately DE's choice to add more poison enemies, and I can somewhat understand the logic behind it, but this idea of completely bypassing shields needs to be nipped in the bud. Its a mechanic that exists only to punish players, given doing the reverse to Corpus is both not feasible and unnecessary.

[Yefrign]

This kind of returns to what I mentioned about numbers before. Slash procs and Poison procs can and often are positively lethal, disproportionately so given they ignore shields. I'm not sure the mechanic itself needs a look at, so much as the output from it.

 

I am not a fan of a enemy that makes one half of our defense against damage completely pointless. As far as I'm concerned, the ability to ignore shields belongs on bosses with heavily telegraphed attacks and not in many other places. Toxic Ancients are some of the most obnoxious enemies in the game, closely followed by Eviscerators, and its solely because their procs do far more then they logically should.

 

Maybe proc output needs to be looked at. It is ultimately DE's choice to add more poison enemies, and I can somewhat understand the logic behind it, but this idea of completely bypassing shields needs to be nipped in the bud. Its a mechanic that exists only to punish players, given doing the reverse to Corpus is both not feasible and unnecessary.

 

agreed.

 

I personally thought that what they did in Mass Effect 3 would be the kind of outlook they would have here about this kind of topic. (though clearly "Shield Gating" does not happen here nor did they take a similar approach; aka, cant take health damage unless you loose shields first.) 

 

but that doesn't seem to be the case especially with these damage types. 

 

I still believe that Slash/Bleed damage should not occur unless you have no shields (makes sense no?)

Poison is debatable if you go into specifics but something needs to be looked at here too.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Fartbake

[SableSonata]

They could always just make it so that poison/bleed can't kill on their own, and just leave the victim at 5 or 10 health.

[DiabolusUrsus]

This kind of returns to what I mentioned about numbers before. Slash procs and Poison procs can and often are positively lethal, disproportionately so given they ignore shields. I'm not sure the mechanic itself needs a look at, so much as the output from it.

 

I am not a fan of a enemy that makes one half of our defense against damage completely pointless. As far as I'm concerned, the ability to ignore shields belongs on bosses with heavily telegraphed attacks and not in many other places. Toxic Ancients are some of the most obnoxious enemies in the game, closely followed by Eviscerators, and its solely because their procs do far more then they logically should.

 

Maybe proc output needs to be looked at. It is ultimately DE's choice to add more poison enemies, and I can somewhat understand the logic behind it, but this idea of completely bypassing shields needs to be nipped in the bud. Its a mechanic that exists only to punish players, given doing the reverse to Corpus is both not feasible and unnecessary.

 

The mechanic needs a change. Not a huge change, but a change. Someone in one of my other threads made the excellent point that procs which bypass shields are the only things that make health worth anything in comparison to shields. 

All we need is a bit of grace time before the shield bypass and some sort of defensive mechanism for getting away. Just the grace time right now would be enough. Don't wanna take poison damage? Back away from that toxic/ toxin cloud for a few seconds. Wanna stand near it for longer? Take poison resistance. 

 

Bleed needs to do more damage but not go through shields, at least until DE considers implementing a Dark Souls-esque proc system. 

[Noble_Cactus]

Warframe is an action RPG, just like Zelda, with guns.

 

Last time I checked Zelda games didn't have min-maxing stats with mods and customizable weaponry. They also didn't have enemies with damage/health scaling to infinity.

 

You're forgetting that most action games give you a set of weapons with fixed stats, and pit you against enemies with fixed stats in specific areas of the game.

[Beladric]

The mechanic needs a change. Not a huge change, but a change. Someone in one of my other threads made the excellent point that procs which bypass shields are the only things that make health worth anything in comparison to shields. 

All we need is a bit of grace time before the shield bypass and some sort of defensive mechanism for getting away. Just the grace time right now would be enough. Don't wanna take poison damage? Back away from that toxic/ toxin cloud for a few seconds. Wanna stand near it for longer? Take poison resistance. 

 

Bleed needs to do more damage but not go through shields, at least until DE considers implementing a Dark Souls-esque proc system. 

 

If shields are considered more viable then health, then shields need to be nerfed or health needs to be buffed, not ways around shields found. Otherwise that creates a false dichotomy for frames like Mag who are forced to rely on their shields. Mag's tools are well suited to keeping her shields up because that's the only defense she has. It isn't fair to all the Mag mains to create a multitude of ways around shields that she just can't deal with. She isn't Valkyr. She can't stack an absurd amount of armour then turn around and heal herself after taking a pounding.

 

I cannot agree with a mechanic that makes shields a non-factor, because several Warframe's were made with their shields as their sole defense in mind. If we had a more evolved combat system, where Mag was agile (and I mean actually agile, able to reasonably dodge things) on top of her shields, then yes, I would be able to agree with you, but as the game currently stands, I can't.

[DiabolusUrsus]

If shields are considered more viable then health, then shields need to be nerfed or health needs to be buffed, not ways around shields found. Otherwise that creates a false dichotomy for frames like Mag who are forced to rely on their shields. Mag's tools are well suited to keeping her shields up because that's the only defense she has. It isn't fair to all the Mag mains to create a multitude of ways around shields that she just can't deal with. She isn't Valkyr. She can't stack an absurd amount of armour then turn around and heal herself after taking a pounding.

 

I cannot agree with a mechanic that makes shields a non-factor, because several Warframe's were made with their shields as their sole defense in mind. If we had a more evolved combat system, where Mag was agile (and I mean actually agile, able to reasonably dodge things) on top of her shields, then yes, I would be able to agree with you, but as the game currently stands, I can't.

 

I am not compelled to disagree with you on that. I would very much like to see the game expand to where each Warframe had multiple means of protecting themselves in response to a variety of enemies. I still think that simply excising RNG from the system and turning it into a resistance buildup would at least help players avoid health damage attrition they can't possibly hope to control. For the time being, anyways. 

[grillv20]

I wonder how many people know about doing backflips in warframe. I wish this feature was implemented in a better way.

[CBAROG]

I wonder how many people know about doing backflips in warframe. I wish this feature was implemented in a better way.

You mean that atrocious move when you aim push Back then Jump? This seriously needs a rework.

[Boatsniper]

Implement And Forget: The Warframe Mistake Story.

[RustyNaps]

You know what is really sad? That this thread will just fade away without DE actually caring. 

Not if I shamelessly bump it for eons!

Edited June 9, 2014 by RustyNaps

[Beladric]

Not if I shamelessly bump it for eons!

 

One of the DE's saw this thread this morning. Dunno if it was actually read, but someone saw it.

 

Now I'm curious to see how long you can keep it bumped.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Not if I shamelessly bump it for eons!

 

Hopefully it won't come to that. I can understand if some of them are a bit more reluctant to comment on it, so I'll let it be for a bit longer. If worse comes to worst, though, I can actually send out a PM asking for an official response, something, anything so that you don't have to spend all your time bumping. I appreciate your willingness to do that, though.

 

One of the DE's saw this thread this morning. Dunno if it was actually read, but someone saw it.

 

Now I'm curious to see how long you can keep it bumped.

 

I think I saw another one of them in sometime this afternoon, too. I just hope they're not looking at this as a rage post or anything like that. I'm intending for it to come across as passionate dismay. Curses; the limitations of bold, underlining, and italics for the purposes of communicating human emotion! 

[Beladric]

Hopefully it won't come to that. I can understand if some of them are a bit more reluctant to comment on it, so I'll let it be for a bit longer. If worse comes to worst, though, I can actually send out a PM asking for an official response, something, anything so that you don't have to spend all your time bumping. I appreciate your willingness to do that, though.

 

 

I think I saw another one of them in sometime this afternoon, too. I just hope they're not looking at this as a rage post or anything like that. I'm intending for it to come across as passionate dismay. Curses; the limitations of bold, underlining, and italics for the purposes of communicating human emotion! 

 

That be a limitation of text as a medium. That said, in my experience DE doesn't respond very often, and I was lurking on these forums for a long time before I started actively posting. I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

I would rather they be working on the game then replying to every forum post, honestly. I do love this game, even if I think it has huge issues.

[Yefrign]

They DO look at the forums. they just don't actively post all the time. I'm sure concerns like these have gotten their attention. they aren't like EA or Ubisoft (and by honest to god I pray they don't go there...)

 

They have been rather responsive and have generally  sated concerns I've had in the past. I still have faith and I have yet to see something to put a dent in said faith.

 

As long as the community continuously show these kinds of concerns they will put it higher and higher on their "Right we need to do something about this" list. so long as we bring valid and reasonable arguments onto the table with possible suggestions for improvements, they will take it seriously.

 

but if we all just rage on the forums saying "UR MA GURD PLS NERFS/BUFFZ DEH STUFFS LIEK OMFG ITS OP/UP!!!!!1!!!" and leave it at that they aren't going to be taking it seriously, no matter how many people say it.

[Beladric]

Buffs and nerfs are part of the game development cycle known as balancing content, which comes with any beta of a game. People need to stop fearing them. Its a part of beta life. If DE weren't doing buffs and nerfs, I'd seriously call into question their right to continue calling the game a beta.

 

They do buff, they do nerf, its a fact of life for the current state of the game. Its more constructive to give direction as to where the problems in a thing are then to say 'stop buffing/nerfing everything'. That's a waste of everyone involved's time. People forget that by agreeing to play a open beta game, you essentially agreed to be a free beta tester. DE doesn't make you do anything with it, but that is the case.

 

Personally, I'm more concerned with the systems that appear to only be half finished then buffing and nerfing. Those are facts of life. I'd rather see Warframe make a great base for itself to spring off then to descend into a never ending pit of number altering on fan demand relating to their favourite gear. I try not to weigh in on warframe powers and such for that reason, even if I do have some strong opinions on it.

[GraalOhOtonami]

Well put, OP. I appreciate how you addressed this:

The opportunity for personalization is what makes video games fun. It's what allows them to become part of the player's identity. It's fulfilling, literally.

Funny how this game is touted as a sandbox game, yet all it has are the components that make a sandbox game. They don't come together to form a whole. Yes, it's a beta, but betas usually have a coherent system in place. WF is a bunch of ideas strung together with no direction.

please research the phrase Beta on terms of program/game testing :/

This is not a Beta, this is a released product, just not a fully realised one.

Edited June 9, 2014 by GraalOhOtonami

[WhisperByte]

They do buff, they do nerf, its a fact of life for the current state of the game. Its more constructive to give direction as to where the problems in a thing are then to say 'stop buffing/nerfing everything'. That's a waste of everyone involved's time. People forget that by agreeing to play a open beta game, you essentially agreed to be a free beta tester. DE doesn't make you do anything with it, but that is the case.

Problem is: they aren't committing to balancing. They only touch upon select few weapons/frames that people scream loudest about.They aren't setting clearly defined baselines and tiers so that we could provide feedback on whether weapons/frames exceed them or underperform in some way

 

please research the phrase Beta on terms of program/game testing :/

This is not a Beta, this is a released product, just not a fully realised one.

This actually a weird mix between released product and Alpha. There are still  features being added and then left for months in a passable state

[Beladric]

Problem is: they aren't committing to balancing. They only touch upon select few weapons/frames that people scream loudest about.They aren't setting clearly defined baselines and tiers so that we could provide feedback on whether weapons/frames exceed them or underperform in some way

 

This actually a weird mix between released product and Alpha. There are still  features being added and then left for months in a passable state

 

We already noted that DE doesn't seem to actually swing the balance hammer until people start screaming at them over it. In a way, I suppose that makes sense, since we're supposed to be testing this, but it still feels odd they don't appear to be taking initiative. Then again, they could be doing so behind the scenes. Some changes do get made that I didn't see asked for on the forums.

 

As for this being a weird mix between Alpha and Release, I disagree. I look at this game and I think Artix Entertainment's hilariously defined Gamma testing strategy of release it as it comes and hope it doesn't break catastrophically. Some of this stuff isn't tested as thoroughly as you would think. I would hope they aren't doing that, but sometimes I wonder (hello Broken Lights who were clearly not thought through as much as they should have been. That would have been a good use of the Design Council, since I'm fairly sure they'd have shot that idea down hard).

[dandin3]

i am not agree on what you say here.

look . it's true that new enemy not gonna fix ALL the game problem but it's sure add more challenge .

idk why u say they screw up the solo player . the thing i most enjoyed in this game its see how much time i can survive on ceres with the prosecutors. solo

see the fact you can't just shot everything with op weapon and must you run around remake moves frame or mods make the game more fun. [i personally use knockdown resist and it work super nice to me - perfect my build ]

im not say the game not need fix and HONEST must to have more challenge. but its not bad as you do it.

 

but one thing i totally agree .. the boss's.... lol

so they see that boss r very easy the kill with op weapon so they crate that system u cant hit any where and anytime. that's cool van hek he is nice boss. but not all boss need base on the same system..

but just to be fair . tly roger seems like nice boss .. affected by melee only . sounds great

.

so again. new enemy does make the game a bit more fun. and i dont think that solo player so screwed .and yes boss's need more challenge + range of system . [and melee need some base fix.. but that not new..]

that's my opinion .

 nice Coverage btw. i enjoyed even that i not agree

[hope u understand my english]

Edited June 9, 2014 by dandin3

[Davoodoo]

We already noted that DE doesn't seem to actually swing the balance hammer until people start screaming at them over it. In a way, I suppose that makes sense, since we're supposed to be testing this, but it still feels odd they don't appear to be taking initiative. Then again, they could be doing so behind the scenes. Some changes do get made that I didn't see asked for on the forums.

 

As for this being a weird mix between Alpha and Release, I disagree. I look at this game and I think Artix Entertainment's hilariously defined Gamma testing strategy of release it as it comes and hope it doesn't break catastrophically. Some of this stuff isn't tested as thoroughly as you would think. I would hope they aren't doing that, but sometimes I wonder (hello Broken Lights who were clearly not thought through as much as they should have been. That would have been a good use of the Design Council, since I'm fairly sure they'd have shot that idea down hard).

DE so far nerfed:

 

weapons:

shotguns - too many topics about shotgun sniping on forums

acrid - forums had videos showing it taking down phorid in 5 seconds while flux with x3 dmg against it took over 12.

shotguns again - status and pellet count(that was actually their initiative)

continous weapons - changed to status/sec(again de initiative)

lato - de own initiative

 

frames

rhino - iron skin change but at the same time huge buff to stomp, either way forums were screaming for nerf

frost - snow globe, again forums screamed

trinity - forums screamed

nova - forums screamed

 

I skipped indirect nerfs.

 

9 nerfs when game was open beta for over a year

 

Sure they also did more buffing but this game needs more nerfs than buffs imo.

 

Also promising that you wont nerf soma?? you make such promise in mmo?? this deserves a facepalm, but ok they are inexperienced studio when it comes to mmos, such thing would maybe slide in single player game.

 

EDIT: forgot lato nerf

Edited June 9, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Beladric]

DE so far nerfed:

 

weapons:

shotguns - too many topics about shotgun sniping on forums

acrid - forums had videos showing it taking down phorid in 5 seconds while flux with x3 dmg against it took over 12.

shotguns again - status and pellet count(that was actually their initiative)

 

frames

rhino - iron skin change but at the same time huge buff to stomp, either way forums were screaming for nerf

frost - snow globe, again forums screamed

trinity - forums screamed

nova - forums screamed

 

I skipped indirect nerfs.

 

7 nerfs when game was open beta for over a year

 

Sure they also did more buffing but this game needs more nerfs than buffs imo.

 

Agreed, there needs to be more nerfs, but I mentioned this before and I'll say it again, players hate seeing their numbers go down, regardless if its for the greater good or not. I can see why DE may be hesitant to act hastily there. It is generally preferable to be right the first time.

 

Didn't know about the Acrid nerf, but then again, that may be before my time.

 

There are cases where buffing is warranted. After all, everything in the game needs to line up with some logic, but I don't know what DE's logic there is. No one seems to know if they want to set everything into tiers or not, and the shear amount of firepower the Boltor Prime brought with it last Prime Access makes it difficult to say if there was any logic behind it, since it doesn't seem to be tiered if such a system is supposed to exist.

 

That said, there is a case to be made that the Boltor Prime may have turned out more powerful in practice then DE expected, I suppose, but it smacks to me of not wanting to discourage people from the Prime Access, since Rhino Prime was a slight upgrade on Rhino. Now that the Prime Access is over, we might see it getting a look at.

 

Doesn't really affect me as a player, I suppose. I don't like the Boltor class of weapons anyway.