I Think It's Time Boltor Prime Stops Rendering ~130 Weapons Obsolete

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Have you never used Dread/Paris Prime or wtf?

 

He just pointed out that comparing bows (which require positioning, charged shots, and other skill checks) to BP (which is a spray and pray death cannon) isn't a good comparison. Pay attention.

[HoakinBlackforge]

For fucks sake, can a moderator close this already?

 

The solution is easy:

 

Prime weapons, ALL prime weapons, locked until rank 10, making them the "endgame" equipment.

 

Buff every other prime weapons.

 

 

The boltor prime sucks anyway, i tried it and ended up selling it.

[Azawarau]

Have you never used Dread/Paris Prime or wtf?

He just pointed out that comparing bows (which require positioning, charged shots, and other skill checks) to BP (which is a spray and pray death cannon) isn't a good comparison. Pay attention.

Thank you

 

For fucks sake, can a moderator close this already?

 

The solution is easy:

 

Prime weapons, ALL prime weapons, locked until rank 10, making them the "endgame" equipment.

 

Buff every other prime weapons.

 

 

The boltor prime sucks anyway, i tried it and ended up selling it.

Calling to close a thread because you dont like the discussion?

[SgtFlex]

For fucks sake, can a moderator close this already?

 

The solution is easy:

 

Prime weapons, ALL prime weapons, locked until rank 10, making them the "endgame" equipment.

 

Buff every other prime weapons.

 

 

The boltor prime sucks anyway, i tried it and ended up selling it.

That's not how forums work. They are discussions amongst everyone to see how people agree/disagree with OP.

 

And your solution isn't the best either. IMO, Locking an item from a certain level doesn't mean that powercreep still won't exist (which IMO, mostly Boltor P has).

 

It's not even the Boltor's fault entirely, it's just that most prime weapons supersede every other weapon in the game in terms of DPS.

[AlphaHorseman]

 

 

It's not even the Boltor's fault entirely, it's just that most prime weapons supersede every other weapon in the game in terms of DPS.

Isn't that the point of the primes though?

[Seanjuju]

The Boltor Prime is the most annoying weapon in my aresenal at the moment.

 

I don't believe in "gimping" oneself to produce a challenge. It is boring, and not that many other people do it, making it so playing with PUGS will take advantage and use whatever opportunity they get to go as high as possible.

 

The Boltor Prime is particularly annoying to me because it has the highest DPS out of all my weapons. I keep on building at least 2 weapons or so a day, and no matter what, I can build them the same way, but if I got end-game like T4S, a Boltor Prime is practically mandatory. Not because every other weapon doesn't deal enough damage, but rather, the Boltor P deals too much damage. I've taken it so far, and over any other weapon, it just decimates the enemy. You can take this thing and eventually it'll take a clip to take down an enemy, but take any other weapon in your primary arsenal and see what happens. The Boltor just insta-pins enemies to the walls, while it takes a bit more time with anything that has armor. I'd say a nerf would be in place to put more weapons on even-ground, but I know that I'll get so much disagreement, and I have said the same thing before as above.

 

Sometimes it's not good that things are up to the community, because a lot of communities consist of powercreeps. Sure, there are a lot of people that seek as much challenge as possible as me, but it's always the same thing in my mind no matter what game. I will never gimp myself, I will use what ever advantage that I can use if other players use it (besides exploits and S#&$, I refuse to use those) and hope it's not too bad. If it's too much, then it's in need of a nerf. With too much powercreep, more objectiveless players exist, because the Boltor Prime just seems like THAT end-game weapon, there's no reason to get a different weapon for sheer power, the Boltor P is that.

Boltor Prime has great burst damage and that's what it should specialize in. That's all many people need. The trade-off is that it slows down faster than any other weapon in my endgame arsenal. I don't understand what you mean by sheer power but there are plenty of competitive alternatives to Boltor Prime when it comes to endgame.  

[SgtFlex]

Isn't that the point of the primes though?

It's to be better, but I don't believe it should make every other weapon pointless (okay not pointless, but if you want high DPS end-game, then the only gun to really use is the Boltor, lasts the longest in mine) to use end-game. It should still have the downfalls of a regular boltor, but be better than the original, not better than most guns that exist.

 

 

Boltor Prime has great burst damage and that's what it should specialize in. That's all many people need. The trade-off is that it slows down faster than any other weapon in my endgame arsenal. I don't understand what you mean by sheer power but there are plenty of competitive alternatives to Boltor Prime when it comes to endgame.  

In my end-game arsenal, it's practically the best I have. It's DPS kills anything end-game compared to any other primary I have. It has about twice as much or so DPS than any other primary I currently have in my arsenal that's built for DPS.

Edited October 13, 2014 by SgtFlex

[AlphaHorseman]

It's to be better, but I don't believe it should make every other weapon pointless (okay not pointless, but if you want high DPS end-game, then the only gun to really use is the Boltor, lasts the longest in mine) to use end-game. It should still have the downfalls of a regular boltor, but be better than the original, not better than most guns that exist.

 

 

In my end-game arsenal, it's practically the best I have. It's DPS kills anything end-game compared to any other primary I have. It has about twice as much or so DPS than any other primary I currently have in my arsenal that's built for DPS.

I don't know man, nothing against you, but my Paris Prime and my Dread can outperform that sucker any day when it comes to damage output. I've been able to hack down high level gunners faster with my Paris Prime and Dread more so than I have my Boltor Prime. I'd have to focus fire a heavy gunner in higher level missions if I'm using my boltor, but I can one shot (technically two with multishot) a heavy with my Paris Prime even when my teammates are using Boltor Primes. Even during the end-mission screens on t4 missions like survival, I still dish out most of the damage, even when the rest of the team has boltor Primes.

 

Honestly though, without an established late-game, we still don't have the good parameters to make these comparisons. But also, I've seen people perform with a latron prime on par with those that have a boltor. I'd say it isn't the weapon that decides whose the better killing machine, rather, who is the one using the weapon.

[_Raiklar_]

To be honest the Boltor Prime is my go to gun for void missions. And I admit right now it is the most powerful gun in the game. But on the other hand. if you brake every weapon back down to its base stats I'm sure its not that powerful. Its the mods that you put on it that makes it powerful. and since everyone uses serration, splitchamber, and heavy caliber. before any other mod. whats to say that if you get your wish. and they nerf the Boltor Prime that some other weapon wont come along and be better that it fully modded. I mean hell my Dread does over 14000 base slash damage with out the crit bonus so nerfing this one weapon i don't think is the answer to your problem.

[Frostmire]

This game is full of people who spend hours super charging their weapons to one shot every enemies then complain how they either have to solo or do 2+ hours  endless missions to find the challenge. What a joke

[vaugahn]

This game is full of people who spend hours super charging their weapons to one shot every enemies then complain how they either have to solo or do 2+ hours  endless missions to find the challenge. What a joke

 

And the same people who endlessly complain about the game not being balanced are the ones who actively fight balancing.

[(XBOX)ShwagatronPRIME]

Weapons with all the best mods should destroy everything. Why would I want to have to spend countless hours upgrading a mod and formaing a weapon, then a couple of hours getting the funny money for all that to barly be able to beat jackel, all in the name of being balanced? Really I think if all the weapons are "balanced" what would make one desirable than another?

Edited October 13, 2014 by (XB1)ShwagatronPRIME

[Xrkr]

 Really I think if all the weapons are "balanced" what would make one desirable than another?

Playstyle preference.

Edited October 13, 2014 by Xrkr

[AlphaHorseman]

Playstyle preference.

Don't we already have that?

 

No one is forcing people to use the Boltor Prime, it is your preference to use it or not. I prefer the bows because I like their feel, I know a guy that goes amprex all the way, or one of my clanmates that enjoys blasting things apart with his penta.

[vaugahn]

Don't we already have that?

 

No one is forcing people to use the Boltor Prime, it is your preference to use it or not. I prefer the bows because I like their feel, I know a guy that goes amprex all the way, or one of my clanmates that enjoys blasting things apart with his penta.

 

We don't balance on honor rules. Nobody forces people to abuse broken mechanics, that doesn't mean they should be left in the game.

[AlphaHorseman]

We don't balance on honor rules. Nobody forces people to abuse broken mechanics, that doesn't mean they should be left in the game.

Which broken mechanics? The boltor prime? I thought the weapon functioned fine, what's broken about it? Or I'm completely missing the point and I don't know which mechanic you're referring to, please clarify.

[vaugahn]

Which broken mechanics? The boltor prime? I thought the weapon functioned fine, what's broken about it? Or I'm completely missing the point and I don't know which mechanic you're referring to, please clarify.

 

That was a blanket reference. A more exact example would be permanent invuln blessing. Nobody forced players to waltz through content without taking any damage, but it wasn't okay to leave that in the game.

 

For a base automatic rifle, the Boltor Prime does far too much damage. A 10 actually scratch that, even 5 would work-point damage decrease would bring it more in line.

Edited October 13, 2014 by vaugahn

[AlphaHorseman]

That was a blanket reference. A more exact example would be permanent invuln blessing. Nobody forced players to waltz through content without taking any damage, but it wasn't okay to leave that in the game.

 

For a base automatic rifle, the Boltor Prime does far too much damage. A 10 actually scratch that, even 5 would work-point damage decrease would bring it more in line.

But, isn't that the point of the Prime Weapons though? Do what the modern models couldn't replicate and outclass them. To be clear, the Primes en general are supposed to be top tier material, as DE stated in an earlier devstream that they would be considering Tiering weapons. So having the Boltor Prime being the vanilla point and shoot weapon would of course be some players bread and butter, and it does good damage, as a good prime weapon should. 

 

It's good for sustained DPS, but in later T4 missions it can get outclassed by the Paris Prime and the Dread, or other prime weapons if used by a player who knows how to mod well. I've seen Latron Prime players outclass the Boltor Prime players in T4 missions as well, and most of the time I can keep pace with any Boltor Prime using my Paris Prime.

 

Keep in mind we're also not established on late-game content, so the top tier weapons will of course be powerful against most of the enemies in-game currently. Boltor Prime is the easiest for people to handle, because it's spray and pray. It's drawbacks come from its projectile travel time, low crit, and other variables. Though I'll admit that its a powerful weapon, the amprex and others can keep pace in terms of DPS.

 

I'm arguing my point because it seems kinda sad that we're being forced to nerf our weaponry in order to feel a challenge anymore. I'd rather we have enemies with interesting mechanics, like invulnerability except for certain points on their body, with AOE attacks or new attack moves that differentiate them from the enemies we are currently facing in-game that are only bullet sponges. If we had more enemy variety, in the sense of interesting battle mechanics, smarter AI, or other aspects of new enemies that aren't just bullet sponges, we wouldn't be worried about the mechanics and DPS of the Boltor Prime so much as we'd have enemies that can't be broken so quickly with its sustained DPS.

[vaugahn]

-snip-

 

I'm not saying it shouldn't be powerful, I'm saying it shouldn't be powerful across the board. Yes, there are several weapons that have higher burst DPS. However, all of those are somewhat risky to use. For Latron Prime and Dread, you have to be a good shot. Especially with Dread there is a very real chance of missing, and at the levels you're talking about missing means death. For the Amprex, you have to be super close, with all the dangers that entails. For the Boltor Prime you have to point your crosshairs in the general direction of the enemy and you're good. Its drawbacks aren't significant at all, and are not nearly enough for the damage it does. 

 

Generally, assault rifle-type weapons trade damage and close/long range effectiveness for ease of use and versatility. However, the Boltor Prime isn't really making any sort of trades. 

[AlphaHorseman]

I'm not saying it shouldn't be powerful, I'm saying it shouldn't be powerful across the board. Yes, there are several weapons that have higher burst DPS. However, all of those are somewhat risky to use. For Latron Prime and Dread, you have to be a good shot. Especially with Dread there is a very real chance of missing, and at the levels you're talking about missing means death. For the Amprex, you have to be super close, with all the dangers that entails. For the Boltor Prime you have to point your crosshairs in the general direction of the enemy and you're good. Its drawbacks aren't significant at all, and are not nearly enough for the damage it does. 

 

Generally, assault rifle-type weapons trade damage and close/long range effectiveness for ease of use and versatility. However, the Boltor Prime isn't really making any sort of trades. 

Makes sense. Still, I'm a man whose not partial to the nerfing side, but that's just me. So, to help out with the other weapons that some say can't compete, how's about we buff up the mechanics of other weapons, and slightly nerf the boltor, the 5 points you were talking about don't seem that detrimental to me. If we can boost up the stats of other weapons, and at the same time introduce enemies that aren't just bullet sponges, we can help to make sure that many weapons are viable or on-par, of course I'm talking about buffing the primes, the non-prime weapons are supposed to be below them.

Wow, the last part of my response sounds racist, in a weapon sense, I feel somewhat bad for saying it, lol. but in this game setting, it would make sense for the modern weapons to be weaker than the Orokin age weapons they try to replicate.

[vaugahn]

Makes sense. Still, I'm a man whose not partial to the nerfing side, but that's just me. So, to help out with the other weapons that some say can't compete, how's about we buff up the mechanics of other weapons, and slightly nerf the boltor, the 5 points you were talking about don't seem that detrimental to me. If we can boost up the stats of other weapons, and at the same time introduce enemies that aren't just bullet sponges, we can help to make sure that many weapons are viable or on-par, of course I'm talking about buffing the primes, the non-prime weapons are supposed to be below them.

Wow, the last part of my response sounds racist, in a weapon sense, I feel somewhat bad for saying it, lol. but in this game setting, it would make sense for the modern weapons to be weaker than the Orokin age weapons they try to replicate.

 

I'm all for buffing stuff. The way I see it, there is no "nerfing side" or "buffing side", there's a balance side and we should all be on it. There's a long list of things that need buffing, I won't even bother listing them all as I'm sure you can guess most of them.

 

As for the 5-point reduction, it doesn't seem very significant but what it does is put it in the same relative range as the other top-tier weapons. Most of those top-tier weapons should be primes, but there's nothing wrong with some normal ones sneaking in. We don't want people to feel like they're forced to run prime stuff. 

 

And yes, I fully agree on the enemy thing. That goes without saying, better enemy design is a must.

[Seanjuju]

It's to be better, but I don't believe it should make every other weapon pointless (okay not pointless, but if you want high DPS end-game, then the only gun to really use is the Boltor, lasts the longest in mine) to use end-game. It should still have the downfalls of a regular boltor, but be better than the original, not better than most guns that exist.

 

 

In my end-game arsenal, it's practically the best I have. It's DPS kills anything end-game compared to any other primary I have. It has about twice as much or so DPS than any other primary I currently have in my arsenal that's built for DPS.

Boltor Prime definitely isn't my best weapon even if I leave out bows and snipers. It's a great weapon but I don't really see the need for a nerf. Endgame doesn't revolve around it.

 

You can find ways to make it less common I guess. Probably through part drop rates and placement. Mastery wouldn't be a good idea since primes don't use the mastery system to reflect power. The entire system would need to be reformed.

[Jinryusai]

So many Dreads, so little Bolt Primes...

[Quizel]

How about you compare the boltor to another full auto weapon before thinking youve made a decent point

**Soma Calcs are ignoring the short windup. Merely a slight over estimate if you don't allow it to wind down between bursts**

 

Lets look at Soma & Boltor Prime vs Grineer and Corrupted Grineer -> x4 corrosive projection aura present

 

Note: I realize 90% more heat dmg is greater than 60% more viral for Boltor P, however, the 60% ele 60 status viral mod provides more viral procs while the 90% heat mod actually takes away from additional viral procs. Lastly, it's only like 500 burst dps difference or something anyway.  

 

Note2: Also, I wouldn't necessarily use these builds but ppl often like to compare highest possible builds. I didn't use Bane mods so that comparison is applicable for the void as well.

 

 

Remember, when x4 CP aura is used, all that remains is cloned flesh (except of course for the few machines Grineer have)

 

Mouse is hovering over Grineer on the Soma stats (next two pics are taken off of WF Builder Weapon Comparator if you haven't seen it before)

 

 

Mouse is hovering over Grineer on the Boltor Prime stats

 

 

Confirming accuracy and that 'total damage' is the burst dps shown

 

Now, the burst dps is pretty damn close for chest shots. Boltor Prime does have 62% higher dmg / shot and slightly more than double the number of viral procs /sec (if that means anything)

 

Proc calc distributions in spoiler if wondering

 

Considering ammo efficiency, procs, and a smidge higher dps, I'd say BP is dominating. However now look at Soma's head shot potential compared to BP's

 

HS Burst Calcs in Spoilers

 

Using same builds as above

 

Removing Hcal for more reasonable estimates. --->> Added 60% more viral to Soma and 90% heat to BP

 

Allowing Boltor Prime to keep Hcal like the original build but Soma has the 60% more viral instead

 

Edit: Figured it was only fair to show chest shot dps comparison of Boltor Prime keeping Hcal like the original build but Soma has the 60% more viral instead like the graph just above this one, as it could be seen as misleading and bias if I did not >.>. 

 

 A lvl 30 corrupted lancer has ~800 Health. Using the first/original build listed, estimated dmg per shot of the Soma is 1800'ish (there's a 8.1% chance it would take more than 1 ammo to kill) while BP's is ~2900 (100% chance to kill with 1 ammo consumed).  A lvl 40 corrupted heavy gunner has ~11.5k hp (soma takes about  7 ammo and BP takes 4). Point and case is that 540 ammo can go a long ways. No need to type head shot comparison out as one could imagine the tables turn vs heavy units.

 

What all this is supposed to show is that Soma is indeed very competitive for chest shots but has the option to outclass the BP (in burst dps and ammo efficiency) under certain conditions.  I'd agree the Soma generally does eat up ammo significantly faster, but if all you're doing is going for 20 min and everyone is rocking CP aura, should be just fine.

 

There's much more to say but no need to repeat things that have been stated in thread already >.>. I wanted to show that weapons that scale well with crit mods also mod well toward specific enemy types.

 

All in all, I personally do think Boltor Prime is better, but is it really that much better at the 20 min mark t4 survival? Extremely talented players could make far better use of the Soma than I'm capable of. 

Edited October 13, 2014 by Quizel

[DSpite]

Any advanced AI is meaningless when players can kill everything in few seconds.  Or you start to resort to cheap shots like this proposal with a sniper  - nothing good or fun about getting shot from out of nowhere. 

 

I need to point out that it is not "cheap tactics", it is simply "tactics". You are confusing your idea of having fun at all cost at the expense of actually having missions feel like missions.

 

Any tactic that can be used by us against the bad guys should be tactics that need to make an appearance and be used against us. I'm not saying that DE should fill the level full of long range snipers, I'm saying that they such mechanics should exist in some form to stop us from camping the same 10 meter circle and keeping our finger on the trigger.