Frost - Still Just A Bubble Factory

[Vaskadar]

PREFACE: NOT A SNOWLGOBE THREAD

 

This is about his other powers.

 

Yes, he is largely considered (by the community) a bubble factory whose only purpose is to set up bubbles for defense. He's very good at being a bubble machine, but he falls short with some of his other powers' potential.

 

He is also very slow. Being slow, his powers should make up for that.

 

Suggestions that are frequently proposed for his powers

 

Freeze suggestions frequently seen

-Freeze getting its damage cut, but enabling freeze to affect multiple targets ala AOE.

-Frozen targets taking extra damage

 

Ice Wave suggestions seen

-Lingering 'slow trap' via waning crystals, initial damage and slow effect remains

 

Avalanche

-The return of the frozen targets after initial cast

-Change the power to an AOE blizzard that lingers and deals cold damage over time, freezing targets under X % health

 

Right now, it's just a misnomered snowball fight.

 

&

 

My own suggestion for Avalanche

-Turn it into a forward-momentum avalanche (i.e. a real avalanche instead of a blizzard) that gains more range with the more targets that it affects, dealing cold damage and freezing enemies, if cast while in the air, Frost will ride the Avalanche

Edited June 11, 2014 by Vaskadar

[michaelwii]

Frost has improved greatly with the changes, but people primarily now just use 3 and 4.

 

I agree with your change/recommendation to Freeze. In fact, I would say have all the damage removed, and have it be a purely freeze proc, with an AoE. Anything in that AoE would be frozen (obviously want it to be small since it's first power and all)

 

I think that Ice Wave should be more of a cone of effect than a straight line. Not something like 90 degrees, but maybe 45, with a slowdown for some time at all ranges, but less damage the further away the target is.

 

Not sure about the Blizzard aspect of Avalanche. Maybe just a return to the old version, where the enemies are frozen. 

 

Good post with good recommendations, +1

[ShadowDragon000]

Also there is a major problem with his 2, it deals 700 damage for 50 energy in a smaller area than his ultimate that does 1500 for 100 energy that also comes with a brief crowd control effect.

[Nosferagon]

hum.. me thinks freeze would be cool as a toggle-able power. an Icethrower that inflicts freeze proc whilst active, leaving targets susceptible to damage. i initially thought this for volt's shock but it would be cool in frost as well.

 

Your avalanche suggestion, would it be like an ever growing snowwave? that would be awesome

 

Edit: for solo play: after finishing casting freeze targets affected would have the proc (or full freeze) for the durations existent already. (12 secs at max rank) keeping the damage susceptibility for that duration

Edited June 11, 2014 by Lonepepas99

[Countess_Hapmuhr]

I was very disappointed in DEs nerfs of Frost, because they only resulted in negative consequences for players maining him. Before when we had the super snow globe, we at least had the freedom to venture out every now and then to collect some pick-ups since we knew we could trust the shield to hold. Now that it's become purely situational, it's forcing me as a player to stay with the globe at all times just in case a heavy starts shooting at it and it needs to be reapplied again.

 

The most exciting change with Frost was actually the bugged ult that gave him amazing CC possibilities. I was incredibly deflated when they fixed that and pretty much just made it into a "press 4 to AoE" skill again.

 

I think that the current HP system of the snow globe needs to go, I've been avoiding defense missions now since I just don't like playing Frost anymore now that I can't even move away far enough from the pod to actually pick up some goodies. Ideally, I'd love for a Snow Globe with a shorter (but absolute) duration and an ult that does more CC/Stun rather than damage. That way, it could have a great synergy with a Nova for instance.

[tris1]

Anyone think turning snowglobe into a skill like hydroids puddle meaing

No damage goes through snowglobe even napalms and the ground shocks

However you can not shoot out of the globe so no damage

Becomes a toggle skill must be higher cost

Melee units can still enter

Once inside cant go outside of it unless you stop the globe

Energy siphon does not work while inside

Draws agro

Once the globe is gone it freezees all targets within range for the same amount of time a knockdown would take

Only way to do damage would be to use his other skills

Would this be OP or even worse than at the moment

[Vaskadar]

Anyone think turning snowglobe into a skill like hydroids puddle meaing

No damage goes through snowglobe even napalms and the ground shocks

However you can not shoot out of the globe so no damage

Becomes a toggle skill must be higher cost

Melee units can still enter

Once inside cant go outside of it unless you stop the globe

Energy siphon does not work while inside

Draws agro

Once the globe is gone it freezees all targets within range for the same amount of time a knockdown would take

Only way to do damage would be to use his other skills

Would this be OP or even worse than at the moment

 

That would be far worse, and doesn't really address what this thread is about.

[Tarille]

I feel that Avalanche could do with having it's damage reduced somewhat and in exchange receive an increase in it's CC potential.

 

At the moment, it seems a bit lackluster - In comparison to Reckoning, it's less effective at CC (Since Reckoning has not only the duration of the lift stunning enemies but also the ragdolling effect which makes enemies spend even more time not attacking), it's damage type is more specific to faction (Cold is good against Shields and okay versus Alloy and Robitics. Reckoning has Impact being good versus Shields and Radiation being great versus Alloy and okay versus Robotics) and it has less utility in that Reckoning kills can create health orbs.

 

So giving it things like a longer freeze duration, persistent slow after freeze wears off etc. Would give it that niche role of being a good AoE CC ability with a bit of decent damage - Not huge lockdown like Booben is known for, but something that makes it useful outside just being an AoE nuke.

 

Alternatives for a rework might include something similar to the Death Knight skill from World of Warcraft - Remorseless Winter.

 

For those not familiar with that skill:

 

It surrounds your character in a blizzard and enemies nearby gain a stacking debuff that slows their movement speed by 15% per stack. Upon reaching 5 stacks, the enemy is stunned for 6 seconds.

 

So... Things that could be taken from this: Persistent AoE, Stacking Slow (Imagine if Frost can put out enough blizzards to freeze multiple foes to a point where their effectiveness is severely crippled), conditional stun.

 

I don't play enough Frost to be able to design a balanced skill to fit in Warframe, but I'll leave it here and maybe it'll provide inspiration to someone who mains Frost to design an effective skill.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Tarille

[Azawarau]

Im in love with frost 3

 

4 is kind of a backup and 1-2 dont interest me at all..

 

I wish he had a bit more CC but it might be a bit game breaking when combined with a few other frames slow effects..

[Dwagon]

I see more Avalanche than I used to but yeah.

Of course, a big part of why he's just a bubble factory is a problem inherent to all Warframes.

 

Running a full 4-skills is always an inferior choice since mod slots are limited.

 

It's far better to forma over 2 or 3 skill polarities and run more mods in their place.

Even on the few frames where I can say every skill has a use (Volt), it's still better to pick your 1-2 favorite and focus on tweaking those.

 

Freeze is remarkably useful for spot-controlling high priority threats in high level, small mob missions. (which comprise a fair amount of missions in Warframe, though "high level" players tend to ignore those in favor of grinding Endless Defense and Survival)

 

Ice Wave has similar utility and good damage for pummeling down shields.

 

They aren't laughably useless, it's just that they aren't essential enough to Frost's kit and role.

And while tuning for 1-2 skills remains the best route, tweaking Freeze and Ice Wave's numbers will do little to encourage their usage, at least short of making them ludicrously overpowered (which creates more problems than it solves).

Edited June 11, 2014 by Dwagon

[Archistopheles]

I specifically use Ice Wave for it's slowing effect. I don't need it to persist, I just aim it properly.

[Grilleds]

Also there is a major problem with his 2, it deals 700 damage for 50 energy in a smaller area than his ultimate that does 1500 for 100 energy that also comes with a brief crowd control effect.

How is that a problem? Also Ice Wave has a guaranteed proc, so its also a CC skill.

 

I agree Frost could use a rework but I don't see why people think Ice Wave is a problem. I find myself using it more than his ultimate. Frost's main problem is that Freeze still isn't really worth using.

[Vaskadar]

How is that a problem? Also Ice Wave has a guaranteed proc, so its also a CC skill.

 

I agree Frost could use a rework but I don't see why people think Ice Wave is a problem. I find myself using it more than his ultimate. Frost's main problem is that Freeze still isn't really worth using.

 

People might want more utility out of Ice wave, but it's in a good spot right now for what it can do.

 

Freeze is ultimately a waste of 25 energy, however, seeing as targets break as soon as they start taking health damage, basically. It should be a percentage of their health instead.

[Valiant]

Kinda think DE have now moved on and forgotten about Frost. It's their 'thing'. They produce/alter something, move on until some time down the line and they return to it. I still find it ironic that they said they wanted to move away from Frost players having to watch Snow Globe all the time but the changes they introduced did exactly the opposite, yet when you point that out to them they don't bother changing anything or even replying.

[(PSN)STARSIDE_DESTINY]

I think that they should bring back old Snow Globe in its entirety with one addition- you can't shoot/attack from inside the globe to the outside. I think the main problem with Snow Globe was the fact that it was the ultimate camping spot- invincible, one way, and could be "moved" (recast). Yeah, you could still make the defense objective invulnerable (except for enemies that are inside the globe, of course), but to actually progress in the mission you would have to be outside of the globe.

[Vaskadar]

I'm worried that they'll wait another 8 months before revisiting him. They're very slow to change anything that they've already put out in the game.

[kye037]

I was very disappointed in DEs nerfs of Frost, because they only resulted in negative consequences for players maining him. Before when we had the super snow globe, we at least had the freedom to venture out every now and then to collect some pick-ups since we knew we could trust the shield to hold. Now that it's become purely situational, it's forcing me as a player to stay with the globe at all times just in case a heavy starts shooting at it and it needs to be reapplied again.

 

The most exciting change with Frost was actually the bugged ult that gave him amazing CC possibilities. I was incredibly deflated when they fixed that and pretty much just made it into a "press 4 to AoE" skill again.

 

I think that the current HP system of the snow globe needs to go, I've been avoiding defense missions now since I just don't like playing Frost anymore now that I can't even move away far enough from the pod to actually pick up some goodies. Ideally, I'd love for a Snow Globe with a shorter (but absolute) duration and an ult that does more CC/Stun rather than damage. That way, it could have a great synergy with a Nova for instance.

I agree, I used to main frost but since the rework(nerf) of snowglobe you really have to stay in one spot and it's difficult to help team mates or pick up stuff. I think they should have left it the way it was. now it's just next to useless at high levels unless you're spamming it every 4 seconds and it's just sad to see him being turned into a frame like that where you just spam abilities every couple of seconds. I never even saw that many frost players, just a bunch of rhinos mainly so I really don't see why he needed a nerf in the first place.

[Aciaj613]

I still find Frost to be in a decent balance atm, and my Powerhouse loadout is better than ever due to the damage increases on most of his abilities.

 

I love the idea of Freeze because I always wanted for this to happen,

and maybe they should return the CC capability of Avalanche.

 

 

But sadly I'm unable to really be a team player due to my internet not working well when I attempt to find a game, so I have to solo most things 80% of the time. So I don't know how well of a team player he is anymore.

[birdei]

if freeze becomes an aoe, it would render ice wave useless. frozen enemies are a lot better than slow enemies.

[LukeAura]

The idea of Frost is to essentially build an ice Fortress, to hold a position no matter how bad a position that is. Which is good for the slowest, least mobile frame of the game. 
Ice Wave needs heavier functional changes because it's optimized by positioning along enemy movement lines, and has poor vertical tracking without ramps and stairs to assist it, which is something Frost really should be leaving to other more agile and speedy frames. 
A ranged AoE slow is a good start in Freeze though.

Edited June 15, 2014 by LukeAura

[Vaskadar]

The idea of Frost is to essentially build an ice Fortress, to hold a position no matter how bad a position that is. Which is good for the slowest, least mobile frame of the game. 

Ice Wave needs heavier functional changes because it's optimized by positioning along enemy movement lines, and has poor vertical tracking without ramps and stairs to assist it, which is something Frost really should be leaving to other more agile and speedy frames. 

A ranged AoE slow is a good start in Freeze though.

 

We're not talking any bigger than a 2 meter radius, really. Enough to get 3-5 targets frozen at most.

 

Targets under the effects of freeze should take additional cold damage.

[Vaskadar]

Lingering ice wave crystals has been requested many times by the community.

[Temfist]

Frost has improved greatly with the changes, but people primarily now just use 3 and 4.

 

I agree with your change/recommendation to Freeze. In fact, I would say have all the damage removed, and have it be a purely freeze proc, with an AoE. Anything in that AoE would be frozen (obviously want it to be small since it's first power and all)

 

I think that Ice Wave should be more of a cone of effect than a straight line. Not something like 90 degrees, but maybe 45, with a slowdown for some time at all ranges, but less damage the further away the target is.

 

Not sure about the Blizzard aspect of Avalanche. Maybe just a return to the old version, where the enemies are frozen. 

 

Good post with good recommendations, +1

yesh! these are the suggestions I would have added.

 

additional changes would be "Ice Wave" slow actually adds to the duration of "Freeze" effects, and stacks with other slows. Freeze is an AoE hard CC that splashes from the initial target as a projectile, OR the move would be a hit scan power with AoE. enemies that are Frozen become brittle, lowering their armor. Ice moves lower shields in general, so combining high shield damage with making enemies armor brittle helps the rest of the team deal with hard mobs.

 

"Ice Wave" could instead be altered to an area denial move that slows enemies adjacent to it and ragdolls/throws back everything in it's direct path, which I think may be an even more fun alternative to how it works now.

 

end result; None of Frosts moves do a "lot" of damage, but they do make enemies easy to kill, and less threatening. Frost becomes useful in every situation a tank would be of use, and functions as a real "tank" character. If these moves are too powerful, then Frosts moves can have a higher energy drain based on the number of targets effected, and/or the move cannot be recast until the duration of the freeze/slow wears off (thus forcing Frost to commit to one mob at a time, and having Avalanche and Snow Globe to deal with every other mob. High energy drain based on numbers would also force Frost to not wildly/spam cast his powers unless he really needs them)

Edited July 23, 2014 by Temphis

[Lukap99]

My ideas.

Freeze is now a continuous beam which drains your energy.

Hitting an enemy with a beam causes the ice proc.

Focusing the beam on certain enemies for x seconds causes them to freeze in place.
You can still move while controlling the beam, just no running.

 

Ice wave now has two modes: Controlled and Linear.
Activate controlled mode by holding the power button.
 - You can change the direction of the wave.
 - At the end of the wave you generate a giant crystal that does good puncture and ice damage and ragdolizes enemies and sends them flying.
 - Enemies enemies that are next to the front of the wave when it moves past them stagger because of the spikes.

 - Enemies that are hit directly by the front of the wave are ragdolized, thrown to the side and get an ice proc.
 - if downed enemies are hit by the wave they become frozen.
 - You're stuck in the casting animation. Cancel it but releasing the power button.

 - Upon canceling you generate the giant crystal.

Activate linear mode by tapping the power button.

 - It's pretty much the same as it is now.
 - Except you're not stuck in the casting animation.
- That's it really.

Snow globe
Hold power button to generate a smaller snowglobe that follows you.
it drains energy though, so you better watch out.
Make regular snow globe by tapping the power button.

Avalance

I've got nothing.